Israel

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Re: Israel

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:Wars are won and lost by the "political outcome", how things shape up after dust settles.
I hope you don't mind that I define winning or loosing very differently.

In violent conflicts those who get killed, wounded or traumaitized are the ones who lost. The rest didn't win however.. they just lost valuable time.

That being said, I do consider Hamas champions both in wasting time and destroying human well being. True winners actually.
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Re: Israel

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According to this senior U.S. officer, who had access to the July 21 Pentagon summary of the previous 24 hours of Israeli operations, the internal report showed that 11 Israeli artillery battalions — a minimum of 258 artillery pieces, according to the officer’s estimate — pumped at least 7,000 high explosive shells into the Gaza neighborhood, which included a barrage of some 4,800 shells during a seven-hour period at the height of the operation. Senior U.S. officers were stunned by the report.

[...]

“Eleven battalions of IDF artillery is equivalent to the artillery we deploy to support two divisions of U.S. infantry,” a senior Pentagon officer with access to the daily briefings said. “That’s a massive amount of firepower, and it’s absolutely deadly.” Another officer, a retired artillery commander who served in Iraq, said the Pentagon’s assessment might well have underestimated the firepower the IDF brought to bear on Shujaiya. “This is the equivalent of the artillery we deploy to support a full corps,” he said. “It’s just a huge number of weapons.”

Artillery pieces used during the operation included a mix of Soltam M71 guns and U.S.-manufactured Paladin M109s (a 155-mm howitzer), each of which can fire three shells per minute. “The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible,” said the senior U.S. military officer. “It’s not mowing the lawn,” he added, referring to a popular IDF term for periodic military operations against Hamas in Gaza. “It’s removing the topsoil.”

“Holy bejeezus,” exclaimed retired Lt. Gen. Robert Gard when told the numbers of artillery pieces and rounds fired during the July 21 action. “That rate of fire over that period of time is astonishing. If the figures are even half right, Israel’s response was absolutely disproportionate.” A West Point graduate who is a veteran of two wars and is the chairman of the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation in Washington, D.C., he added that even if Israeli artillery units fired guided munitions, it would have made little difference.

Even the most sophisticated munitions have a circular area of probability, Gard explained, with a certain percentage of shells landing dozens or even hundreds of feet from intended targets. Highly trained artillery commanders know this and compensate for their misses by firing more shells. So if even 10 percent of the shells fired at combatants in Shujaiya landed close to but did not hit their targets — a higher than average rate of accuracy — that would have meant at least 700 lethal shells landing among the civilian population of Shujaiya during the night of July 20 into June 21. And the kill radius of even the most precisely targeted 155-mm shell is 164 feet. Put another way, as Gard said, “precision weapons aren’t all that precise.”

Senior U.S. officers who are familiar with the battle and Israeli artillery operations, which are modeled on U.S. doctrine, assessed that, given that rate of artillery fire into Shujaiya, IDF commanders were not precisely targeting Palestinian military formations as much as laying down an indiscriminate barrage aimed at cratering the neighborhood. The cratering operation was designed to collapse the Hamas tunnels discovered when IDF ground units came under fire in the neighborhood. Initially, said the senior Pentagon officer, Israel’s artillery used “suppressing fire to protect their forward units but then poured in everything they had, in a kind of walking barrage. Suppressing fire is perfectly defensible. A walking barrage isn’t.”

That the Israelis explained the civilian casualty toll by saying the neighborhood’s noncombatant population had been ordered to stay in their homes and were used as human shields by Hamas reinforced the belief among some senior U.S. officers that artillery fire into Shujaiya was indiscriminate.

“Listen, we know what it’s like to kill civilians in war,” said the senior U.S. officer. “Hell, we even put it on the front pages. We call it collateral damage. We absolutely try to minimize it, because we know it turns people against you. Killing civilians is a sure prescription for defeat. But that’s not what the IDF did in Shujaiya on July 21. Human shields? C’mon, just own up to it.”
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:
Senior U.S. officers who are familiar with the battle and Israeli artillery operations, which are modeled on U.S. doctrine, assessed that, given that rate of artillery fire into Shujaiya, IDF commanders were not precisely targeting Palestinian military formations as much as laying down an indiscriminate barrage aimed at cratering the neighborhood. The cratering operation was designed to collapse the Hamas tunnels discovered when IDF ground units came under fire in the neighborhood. Initially, said the senior Pentagon officer, Israel’s artillery used “suppressing fire to protect their forward units but then poured in everything they had, in a kind of walking barrage. Suppressing fire is perfectly defensible. A walking barrage isn’t.”

That the Israelis explained the civilian casualty toll by saying the neighborhood’s noncombatant population had been ordered to stay in their homes and were used as human shields by Hamas reinforced the belief among some senior U.S. officers that artillery fire into Shujaiya was indiscriminate.
I don't think they fired "indiscriminately" but with the goal of destroying the tunnel openings and the neighborhood being considered an operational terrorist center.

From the IDF website:
Shuja’iya: Hamas’ Terror Fortress in Gaza

Hamas uses the residential neighborhood of Shuja’iya as a fortress for its weapons, rockets, tunnels and command centers. Hamas exploits the neighborhood’s residents as human shields for its terrorist activity.

This residential neighborhood in Gaza City lies just over the border fence from Israel. Since Hamas’ ruthless takeover of the Gaza Strip in 2007, the organization has developed extensive terrorist infrastructure throughout the neighborhood. In just 13 days, Hamas has fired over 140 rockets from Shuja’iya into Israel.

Since the beginning of the ground phase of Operation Protective Edge, IDF soldiers have found 10 openings to terror tunnels in Shuja’iya. These tunnels are used for infiltrating Israel, smuggling weapons, and launching rockets at Israeli civilians.

The IDF warned civilians in Shuja’iya to evacuate the area many days before striking the terror infrastructure within it. Dropping leaflets, making phone calls and sending text messages are just some of the many actions the IDF has been taking to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza.

Hamas knows that Israel is reluctant to attack areas with many civilians. The terrorist organization fights from within the civilian population and uses them as human shields.

Hamas commanded the residents of Shuja’iya to ignore the IDF’s warning and stay in the neighborhood. By doing so, Hamas ordered them directly in the line of fire.

[...]
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Re: Israel

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Parodite wrote:I don't think they fired "indiscriminately" but with the goal of destroying the tunnel openings and the neighborhood being considered an operational terrorist center.
Destroying a whole neighborhood is not firing indiscriminately? What happened to "pinpoint" and "restraint"?
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:
Parodite wrote:I don't think they fired "indiscriminately" but with the goal of destroying the tunnel openings and the neighborhood being considered an operational terrorist center.
Destroying a whole neighborhood is not firing indiscriminately? What happened to "pinpoint" and "restraint"?
Going in with soldiers doing precise handy work was considered too dangerous. Warning the residents some days before and then shelling suspected locations used as tunnel openings, rocket storage or command centers (I guess that every living room is a possible "command center" :( ) is then the better option; from Israel's perspective of course.

How much of the neighborhood was actually destroyed I don't know. Neither do I know if the IDF shelled indiscriminately or pre-identified targets - which still could be many. In general they don't want to waste firepower, it's all rather calculated.

Found this picture:

Image
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Re: Israel

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Parodite wrote:Going in with soldiers doing precise handy work was considered too dangerous. Warning the residents some days before and then shelling suspected locations used as tunnel openings, rocket storage or command centers (I guess that every living room is a possible "command center" :( ) is then the better option; from Israel's perspective of course.
So no restraint and no pinpoint.
How much of the neighborhood was actually destroyed I don't know. Neither do I know if the IDF shelled indiscriminately or pre-identified targets - which still could be many. In general they don't want to waste firepower, it's all rather calculated.
Calculation doesn't rule out waste.
Found this picture:

Image
The picture is about as misleading as one can expect. "Rocket fired", "Rocket launcher" and "Anti-tank missile fired" don't mean anything. Those are just positions where somebody fired one or two rockets and then left. The only thing they show is that Palestinian teams move around. Hideout? What is that even supposed to mean?
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Re: Israel

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BBC’s Reynolds in Shuja’iya: still no reporting on what really happened

The last few weeks of BBC reporting from the Gaza Strip have been characterised by a repeated pattern of much of that reporting taking place during humanitarian truces or ceasefires. One of the earliest and most striking examples of that pattern took place on July 20th in the Shuja’iya neighbourhood where, after hours of fierce fighting, Hamas requested that the ICRC broker a short ceasefire of several hours and after Israel agreed. The Western media – including the BBC – immediately moved in (with or without Hamas encouragement/facilitation) and the result was ample ‘disaster zone’ style reporting of destruction and casualties, but with details of the actual battle completely overlooked. In the weeks since then, no BBC report has properly described to audiences the battle which took place in Shuja’iya neighbourhood and no real effort has been made even to inform them of why a battle took place there.

The latest 72-hour ceasefire is now also being used by the BBC to produce yet more of its ‘aftermath’ reports and one of those – presented by James Reynolds – was aired on BBC Two’s ‘Newsnight‘ on August 6th. In that report too, Reynolds passed up on the opportunity to properly inform BBC audiences why a battle took place in Shuja’iya. He does, however, continue the prevalent BBC practice of making over-dramatic, sweeping and simplistic characterisations of complicated situations.

“Mousa has had leukemia. He still gets treatments in a hospital in Israel. His parents find themselves depending on the same country that bombs their land.” [emphasis added]

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“The Shuja’iya neighbourhood was torn up by Israel’s offensive. I want to give you a sense of where we are and of what’s happened here. Israel itself is in that direction where the fields are and for almost a month the Israeli air-force and then the Israeli army carried out strikes across the border here into Gaza. This is the Shuja’iya neighbourhood and the destruction here is immense. Wherever you look buildings have been either hit or they’ve got bullet holes in them. Windows have been blown out and there is rubble all around me. Israel’s army says it went against this neighbourhood because it believed that Palestinian militants were digging tunnels from here to go across the border into Israel and that those militant groups led by Hamas were also carrying out rocket strikes from here. Of course those militants were here. But also when you stand here you realise that many, many civilians will have been hit as well. This was their home.”

From the beginning Reynolds sets the scene by subjectively characterising Israel’s actions as an “offensive”. That of course eliminates from audience view all that came before: the fact that Israeli communities in southern Israel have been under attack for fourteen years, the hundreds of missiles launched by terrorists in the Gaza Strip at Israeli civilians between June 12th and the start of Operation Protective Edge on July 8th and the efforts made by Israel to avoid a military operation, which were rejected by Hamas.

“On Thursday [July 3rd], a senior military official sent an unusual message to Hamas. “Quiet will be answered with quiet,” he told journalists hours after a rocket hit a house in Sderot. “Israel has no interest in escalation. If Hamas reins in the shooting now, we won’t act, either.” “

Notable too is Reynolds’ insertion of the following interestingly worded sentence:

“Israel’s army says it went against this neighbourhood because it believed that Palestinian militants were digging tunnels from here to go across the border into Israel and that those militant groups led by Hamas were also carrying out rocket strikes from here.” [emphasis in bold added]

But the fact is that the Israeli army did not ‘believe’ that Shuja’iya was the site of tunnels and missile launchers – it knew that for certain. Over 140 missiles were fired from Shuja’iya alone in thirteen days before July 20th and the district was the site of the entrances to no fewer than ten cross-border tunnels. That, of course, is precisely why Israeli forces had to act there.

Although he does admit the presence of terrorists in Shuja’iya neighbourhood, Reynolds makes no attempt to inform his audience of the scale of their operations and infrastructure there. He also neglects to tell viewers that the IDF advised the residents of Shuja’iya to evacuate four days before taking action there. He fails to clarify how that attempt to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties undoubtedly led to a higher Israeli death toll because – as veteran war reporter Ron Ben Yishai explains – that period of evacuation for civilians was used by terrorists to organise themselves ahead of the IDF’s entry into the district.

“Regarding the fighting in Shejaiyya: it is reasonable to assume that the main reason there was so much resistance, was the lack of surprise. Four days prior to entering Shejaiyya, the IDF demanded again and again from the residents to evacuate. Towards the entrance, the IDF started a heavy artillery attack on the outskirts of Shejaiyya. The Hamas and Islamic Jihad, therefore, had four days and a warning of a few hours that the IDF is going in. This is why – as opposed to Hamas fighters escaping to their hiding places when the IDF launched the sudden ground attack – this time they hid traps, prepared anti-tank ambushes and waited for the Golani brigade, tanks and bulldozers to come in.”

Image

Two other themes we have seen energetically promoted in BBC reporting from the Gaza Strip in recent days also make their way into Reynolds’ report. One of those is the theme that this round of hostilities has made Hamas more popular. The BBC of course has no factual, quantified evidence upon which to base that claim, but nevertheless it is being vigorously promoted by all its reporters on the ground, mostly by means of snapshot ‘man in the street’ interviews. The BBC, however, does not make any effort to inform audiences as to how free those people are to say what they really think on camera.

Another theme we have seen promoted intensely on a variety of BBC platforms of late is the Hamas eye-view of its demand to lift restrictions imposed by Egypt and Israel on their borders with the Gaza Strip. Reynolds says:

“For the first time in almost a month people here are able to take some steps back towards a normal life. Here they’re getting money to buy things for their families. But they want so much more than that. They want the ability to come and go from Gaza. The ability to get things in from the outside world and they want Israel to end its restrictions and that is the same demand that Hamas itself is making of the Israeli government in indirect negotiations.”

Like the rest of his colleagues, Reynolds opts for inaccurate, context-free cheer-leading for Hamas’ demands but makes no effort whatsoever to clarify to viewers that the reason for the restrictions imposed by Israel (and Egypt) is terrorism and that “the ability to get things in from the outside world” crucially includes building materials for the construction of more cross-border attack tunnels and missiles from Iran.

Reynolds’ caricature portrayals of border restrictions on the Gaza Strip and the fighting in Shuja’iya hence join an already long list of BBC reports which fail to meet the BBC’s obligations to “[e]nhance UK audiences’ awareness and understanding of international issues”.
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:
Parodite wrote:Going in with soldiers doing precise handy work was considered too dangerous. Warning the residents some days before and then shelling suspected locations used as tunnel openings, rocket storage or command centers (I guess that every living room is a possible "command center" :( ) is then the better option; from Israel's perspective of course.
So no restraint and no pinpoint.
No an either/or choice. Israel scaled up its actions by being less restrained and adding more pin-pointed attacks no doubt.
Calculation doesn't rule out waste.
That's right. There is always waste. To minimize it is the challenge. How could the Israelis have done better in your view?
Found this picture:

Image
The picture is about as misleading as one can expect. "Rocket fired", "Rocket launcher" and "Anti-tank missile fired" don't mean anything. Those are just positions where somebody fired one or two rockets and then left. The only thing they show is that Palestinian teams move around. Hideout? What is that even supposed to mean?
Why misleading? You shell the location where a rocket or anti-tank missile was fired and where supposedly militants are hiding, tunnel openings are loacated, rockets are stored. The goal is not only to hit the target but the assumption that the enemy is also sensitive to the price they have to pay for firing rockets into Israel, blowing up buses and restaurants if only they could. I don't think it is very effective, but this seems to be the IDFs working theory.
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Re: Israel

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Parodite wrote:No an either/or choice. Israel scaled up its actions by being less restrained and adding more pin-pointed attacks no doubt.
An walking artillery barrage has nothing to do with "pinpoint".
That's right. There is always waste. To minimize it the challenge. How could the Israelis have don better in your view?
It doesn't sound like they tried to minimize anything.
Why misleading? You shell the location where a rocket or anti-tank missile was fired and where supposedly militants are hiding, tunnel openings are loacated, rockets are stored.
If a Palestinian teams stops at a location, fires a rocket and leaves, then shelling that location is completely useless.
The goal is not only to hit the target but the assumption that the enemy is also sensitive to the price they have to pay for firing rockets into Israel. I don't think it is very effective, but this seems to be the IDFs working theory.
It's not effective and the IDF knows it. They mainly kill a lot of Palestinians every couple of years.
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:
Parodite wrote:No an either/or choice. Israel scaled up its actions by being less restrained and adding more pin-pointed attacks no doubt.
An walking artillery barrage has nothing to do with "pinpoint".
It could be that this barrage was also designed "to soften the area" and make deeper incursions possible in order to be able to find and blow up the bunkers where the Hamas leadership is hiding.
That's right. There is always waste. To minimize it the challenge. How could the Israelis have don better in your view?
It doesn't sound like they tried to minimize anything.
Then you should look again. Warning the people four days in advance and telling them to move out is something. And it was not blind carpet bombing.

And I'm still curious how you would handle Hamas. There are some good brains here on this list, lets give the Israelis a bit more than just farting in their face. ;) They need our advice!
Why misleading? You shell the location where a rocket or anti-tank missile was fired and where supposedly militants are hiding, tunnel openings are loacated, rockets are stored.
If a Palestinian teams stops at a location, fires a rocket and leaves, then shelling that location is completely useless.
There is the assumption that what worked with Hezbollah in South Lebanon might also work with Hamas in Gaza.
The goal is not only to hit the target but the assumption that the enemy is also sensitive to the price they have to pay for firing rockets into Israel. I don't think it is very effective, but this seems to be the IDFs working theory.
It's not effective and the IDF knows it. They mainly kill a lot of Palestinians every couple of years.
Some years of quiet ahead may be considered by Israelis a success. But Hamas mainly and no-matter-what wants to continue their armed fight against the state of Israel, making the random killing of Israeli citizens their choice of tactic because the Israeli army is no match for them. That they are not effective is only because Israel controls Gaza's border and the import of goods (minus what they managed to import via their tunnels).
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Re: Israel

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Parodite wrote:It could be that this barrage was also designed "to soften the area" and make deeper incursions possible in order to be able to find and blow up the bunkers where the Hamas leadership is hiding.
It could be and that still means no "restraint" and no "pinpoint".
Then you should look again. Warning the people four days in advance and telling them to move out is something.
Assuming those people had a place to go to, which I very much doubt.
And it was not blind carpet bombing.
Why do I even bother?
And I'm still curious how you would handle Hamas.
Compromise and peace.
There is the assumption that what worked with Hezbollah in South Lebanon might also work with Hamas in Gaza.
Hezbollah is still perfectly able to fire rockets on Israel. A good number of its bunkers escaped intact and the rest have probably been rebuilt. I fail to see what "worked".
But Hamas mainly and no-matter-what wants to continue their armed fight against the state of Israel
Don't even start.
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:
And I'm still curious how you would handle Hamas.
Compromise and peace.
Compromise on what? What would the trade look like?
There is the assumption that what worked with Hezbollah in South Lebanon might also work with Hamas in Gaza.
Hezbollah is still perfectly able to fire rockets on Israel.
But they don't. That's the difference with Hamas now.
A good number of its bunkers escaped intact and the rest have probably been rebuilt. I fail to see what "worked".
Hezbollah didn't fire rockets anymore, that works.
But Hamas mainly and no-matter-what wants to continue their armed fight against the state of Israel
Don't even start.
?
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Re: Israel

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Parodite wrote:But they don't. That's the difference with Hamas now.

Hezbollah didn't fire rockets anymore, that works.
There any number of reason why they're not doing it. Maybe it's a part-time job for them.
?
It's an article of faith for certain people, and I include you among them, that every last member of Hamas is a crazed radical Muslim who would NEVER EVER make peace with Israel. I disagree with that and wish to prevent a discussion. There's nothing you can say to convince me of that and I assume from the start that I can't convince you that you're wrong. So then...
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:It's an article of faith for certain people, and I include you among them, that every last member of Hamas is a crazed radical Muslim who would NEVER EVER make peace with Israel. I disagree with that and wish to prevent a discussion. There's nothing you can say to convince me of that and I assume from the start that I can't convince you that you're wrong. So then...
Up to you. Trying to convince each other even though we know neither of us will convince the other at least has the benefit of knowing better where and why we disagree in more detail. And who knows.. remove a few assumptions we have about each others faiths and opinions that turn.. not exactly right. Seems to me the value of a discussion board.
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Re: Israel

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Parodite wrote:Up to you. Trying to convince each other even though we know neither of us will convince the other at least has the benefit of knowing better where and why we disagree in more detail. And who knows.. remove a few assumptions we have about each others faiths and opinions that turn.. not exactly right. Seems to me the value of a discussion board.
We've discussed this over and over again. Far too many times, really.
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:
Parodite wrote:Up to you. Trying to convince each other even though we know neither of us will convince the other at least has the benefit of knowing better where and why we disagree in more detail. And who knows.. remove a few assumptions we have about each others faiths and opinions that turn.. not exactly right. Seems to me the value of a discussion board.
We've discussed this over and over again. Far too many times, really.
Can't remember you, Nonc, Typhoon, Kmich have shared nor discussed your views. I missed something? I can only vaguely guess what you think and why. I know more or less what HP thinks, MG, Mr.P., Hans B, the late Ibrahim... but maybe all that can be said is said there in your opinion? If so then indeed.. it would be a waste of time :P
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Re: Israel

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Parodite wrote:Can't remember you, Nonc, Typhoon, Kmich have shared nor discussed your views. I missed something? I can only vaguely guess what you think and why. I know more or less what HP thinks, MG, Mr.P., Hans B, the late Ibrahim... but maybe all that can be said is said there in your opinion? If so then indeed.. it would be a waste of time :P
Ah, I was quite the forum warrior back on Spengman's board and Israel was a frequently discussed topic. I fought fiercely against Pastaneta, Dan, Richard Greene, cassowary and others. :)
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:
Parodite wrote:Can't remember you, Nonc, Typhoon, Kmich have shared nor discussed your views. I missed something? I can only vaguely guess what you think and why. I know more or less what HP thinks, MG, Mr.P., Hans B, the late Ibrahim... but maybe all that can be said is said there in your opinion? If so then indeed.. it would be a waste of time :P
Ah, I was quite the forum warrior back on Spengman's board and Israel was a frequently discussed topic. I fought fiercely against Pastaneta, Dan, Richard Greene, cassowary and others. :)
But you didn't fight me.. I'm a different ball game :P
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I don't doubt that. Maybe I'm getting old. ;)
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Re: Israel

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YMix wrote:I don't doubt that. Maybe I'm getting old. ;)
The Meddle East is an incredibly tiring and always disappointing subject. But it is possible to come up with something new, even if nobody cares and nothing we say here makes any difference. ;)

Of course... in my opnion allll will be solved very fast if Hamas et-al simply end their armed fight against Israel. Stop sending rockets into Israeli civilian areas and reject the tactic of blowing up buses and restaurants as an acceptable means of fighting. But indeed... I am very very skeptical about this possibility.

More can and should be expected from Israel. At least there is a chance of different politics and a moral evolution. How about this credo I invented:

Golda Meir: "There will be peace if the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us, and.. " + Parodite: ".. the Israelis love Palestinian children as much as they love their own." That's pretty neat isn't it? 8-) God revealed it to me in the Omni-present present.

How would that change Israeli politics and impact on military action against Hamas?

In my view this subject has not been exhausted at all. It mostly is cheerleading for either/or following the usually debilitating lines of argument.
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Re: Israel

Post by YMix »

Parodite wrote:The Meddle East is an incredibly tiring and always disappointing subject. But it is possible to come up with something new, even if nobody cares and nothing we say here makes any difference. ;)
I've already been accused of enabling terrorism by the Pro-Israel Squad, back in the day. They thought that our conversations do make a difference.
Of course... in my opnion allll will be solved very fast if Hamas et-al simply end their armed fight against Israel. Stop sending rockets into Israeli civilian areas and reject the tactic of blowing up buses and restaurants as an acceptable means of fighting. But indeed... I am very very skeptical about this possibility.
Certainly. I think they can be persuaded with a good deal. No, what Arafat was offered at Camp David was not nearly good enough.
More can and should be expected from Israel. At least there is a chance of different politics and a moral evolution. How about this credo I invented:

Golda Meir: "There will be peace if the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us, and.. " + Parodite: ".. the Israelis love Palestinian children as much as they love their own." That's pretty neat isn't it? 8-) God revealed it to me in the Omni-present present.

How would that change Israeli politics and impact on military action against Hamas?

In my view this subject has not been exhausted at all. It mostly is cheerleading for either/or following the usually debilitating lines of argument.
The cheerleading was one of the worst things at Spengman's.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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kmich
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Re: Israel

Post by kmich »

To pursue a discussion with someone who is convinced and settled in their understandings so as to assist them in strengthening their established positions is a total waste of time. I no longer bother talking to people unless they are actually willing to listen and not just use the conversation to inoculate their convictions from cognitive dissonance.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Israel

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

The current government of Israel is an inhuman abomination, and will end as prophesied by Amos. I am impressed by how many Israelis protested the current government recently, and this movement towards righteousness can only increase as the old and corrupt are replaced by the young and vibrant.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Israel

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

kmich wrote:To pursue a discussion with someone who is convinced and settled in their understandings so as to assist them in strengthening their established positions is a total waste of time. I no longer bother talking to people unless they are actually willing to listen and not just use the conversation to inoculate their convictions from cognitive dissonance.


seconded :)

Nonc Hilaire wrote:The current government of Israel is an inhuman abomination, and will end as prophesied by Amos. I am impressed by how many Israelis protested the current government recently, and this movement towards righteousness can only increase as the old and corrupt are replaced by the young and vibrant.

Amen :lol:


HHQIzaZoCfI
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Parodite
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Re: Israel

Post by Parodite »

I don't mind listen to people with settled opinions on this forum at all, as long as what they say is interesting and adds to or challenges my own settled or more-or-less settled opinions. Discussions between people with very different and settled opinions can be very interesting! Indeed presumably when they are able to listen to each others arguments and respond to those arguments.

When I feel I'm confronted with somebody with a settled opinion who appears unable to listen or hold alternative viewpoints s/he can still be interesting to discuss things with out of curiosity for how such a person operates and where those closed opinions come from. More may be revealed and not necessarily just pertaining to da subject at hand.

I was thinking of starting a thread called "Interviews" where people can let themselves be interviewed about a subject of their own choice by another forum member. :roll:
Deep down I'm very superficial
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