Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Ibrahim
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Hoosiernorm wrote:When you are given coordinates for a fire mission you hit your grid as accurately as possible. The drone guys get a building or a house in a specific place. They do not know the occupants of the house or how many or if anyone is there. They just fly missions, it is as plain as that. No one worried too much about the building it's just a building or a house or a complex, it's just stuff they are making strikes on. They fly a strike and go back home to watch the kids play soccer or watch TV, life is not complicated for drone pilots.
Right, like hired killers. "Hey, I just kill who I'm told to kill, it's not like I'm responsible or anything." Great defense, wonder why you don't see it in more criminal trials.

These people are human garbage. Not even willing to admit their own depravity, like a serial killer, or confront the reality if their own actions, like the traditional war criminal or mass murderer covered in gore or human ash. These people kill through the same medium as one controls a video game. What you call the "normalcy" of their lives is the height of perversity. It's also a little pathetic, but then real-life evil usually is.
Hoosiernorm
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Parodite wrote:It is uncivil to physically threaten people, let alone kill them, let alone kill people not involved directly but only working in an embassy of the same country. It is blind, criminal, vulgar rage of the very lowest sort.
In Libya it was a planned terrorist attack by a terrorist organization with an agenda to disrupt post-revolutionary Libya democracy. It's not "blind rage," though it may be criminal.

But, in principle, is there something Satanic about attacking American diplomatic posts, if you belong to a group of people the US has declared it is at war with and will kill anywhere, any way it can, and does, though often killing many more civilians than actual terrorists? It seems like business as usual for all concerned.

This goes back to my tiresome point that nobody has really addressed so far. The US kills people all the time using the exact same methods as terrorists, they just deliver their bombs that mangle actual targets and civilians indiscriminately using different methods. So we can probably dispense with the fiction that there is some kind of civilized faction to contrast with a barbaric faction behaving unspeakably.
Raphsody and I argued this point some time ago. His argument was that those delivering the high tech bombs have no "intention" of killing civilians regardless whether they know that a 2000 lbs bomb being dropped on a residential area does just that. He never would answer my question of whether the pilot dropping that bomb knew where the bomb was being dropped and what it would do... :?
Pilots don't choose their targets they are given to them. They fly their missions report their achieving target destination and then drop their ordinance. There is no judgment to be made on what they bomb because they don't choose what to bomb or not bomb they just follow flight plans. It's a no risk proposition for a pilot. Now close air support is a different subject and they do chose who to shoot at and who not to shoot at. They pick an area that is being called in as hostile and then perform an assessment that still requires an order to allow them to engage a target but they have a lot more say in who gets shot and who doesn't. The drone guys get about the same sterilized information as the pilot who drops bombs. The guy that flies the recon flight doesn't analyze his own data someone else does. That guy writes a report and usually takes all of the known data that they have from local sources and makes it all fit together. Then they write an action report and someone draws up a flight with approved strikes and non approved strikes. The target strike flight pilot only hits his target, he is not told what it was or who it is only where it is. He is never told if the flight kills civilians just that a target was hit with success or failure.
They know, Hoosier.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oc ... -civilians
...

Take the second round of shooting in the 38-minute sequence. It revolves around a dark-coloured minivan that approaches a wounded man lying by the pavement and trying to drag himself to his feet. Two men jump out and go to his aid. Neither is carrying a weapon. They pay no attention to the bodies lying several yards away. Yet the cockpit recording has their commander saying "they have individuals going to the scene, looks like possibly uh picking up bodies and weapons". The helicopters get permission to blast the van regardless, even though firing on people who are aiding casualties violates US rules of engagement and international law.

The intelligence report of the incident says Crazyhorse "engaged AIF". In fact there is nothing seen by the helicopter pilots to show the men are insurgents. Indeed, when US ground troops reach the shot-up van a few minutes later they discover its passengers include two small girls who have been wounded, suggesting it was an innocent civilian vehicle that had rushed to help the wounded victim because it was the nearest transport available.

The third bout of gunfire from the helicopters comes when they destroy a large building on a street corner with three Hellfire missiles. Before firing the first one the pilot says: "There are at least six individuals in that building with weapons." The cockpit video has shown only one man going into the building, carrying something that might be a weapon. Two clearly unarmed men then go in and another unarmed man walks past the entrance seconds before the gunner launches his missile. Over the next few minutes the helicopters fire two more missiles in order to destroy the building completely.

As untrue as the helicopter pilots' live reporting was, the intelligence summary they filed later compounds the lies. Now the alleged gunmen are said to have been running into the building – clearly more suspicious behaviour than walking.
And I imagine that the pilot will be charged with their murder and if found guilty will spend the rest of his life in prison for murder. The military does prosecute it's soldiers for murder when it is found to be either by error or by malice.
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Hoosiernorm
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Ibrahim wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:When you are given coordinates for a fire mission you hit your grid as accurately as possible. The drone guys get a building or a house in a specific place. They do not know the occupants of the house or how many or if anyone is there. They just fly missions, it is as plain as that. No one worried too much about the building it's just a building or a house or a complex, it's just stuff they are making strikes on. They fly a strike and go back home to watch the kids play soccer or watch TV, life is not complicated for drone pilots.
Right, like hired killers. "Hey, I just kill who I'm told to kill, it's not like I'm responsible or anything." Great defense, wonder why you don't see it in more criminal trials.

These people are human garbage. Not even willing to admit their own depravity, like a serial killer, or confront the reality if their own actions, like the traditional war criminal or mass murderer covered in gore or human ash. These people kill through the same medium as one controls a video game. What you call the "normalcy" of their lives is the height of perversity. It's also a little pathetic, but then real-life evil usually is.
It's more like a surgery than a chain saw massacre. It's probably about as sterile as killing can get. I'm sure in the future that there will be some refinements to the process to make it cheaper and easier to perform but dropping bombs from an air conditioned office is much more refined. The anti drone movement is getting a lot of press these days and the military and the CIA are catching a lot of criticism for their use against targets in civilian areas. The POTUS isn't catching much of it because for some reason the commander in chief isn't in the loop for approving drone warfare. Right now the current level of concern is probably just a bit above hand wringing and will probably go away after fewer press releases are published. It won't get as big as the prison abuse story was and the folks that are doing most of the current journalism on what has and is occurring are still not getting much face time during election season. The replacement NFL referee stuff made more headlines than anything about drone strikes in Anywherestan. We hear more about Afghan soldiers shooting American troops and it looks like we are getting the heck out of there and will just use drones there on an elevated scale.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Hoosiernorm wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Parodite wrote:It is uncivil to physically threaten people, let alone kill them, let alone kill people not involved directly but only working in an embassy of the same country. It is blind, criminal, vulgar rage of the very lowest sort.
In Libya it was a planned terrorist attack by a terrorist organization with an agenda to disrupt post-revolutionary Libya democracy. It's not "blind rage," though it may be criminal.

But, in principle, is there something Satanic about attacking American diplomatic posts, if you belong to a group of people the US has declared it is at war with and will kill anywhere, any way it can, and does, though often killing many more civilians than actual terrorists? It seems like business as usual for all concerned.

This goes back to my tiresome point that nobody has really addressed so far. The US kills people all the time using the exact same methods as terrorists, they just deliver their bombs that mangle actual targets and civilians indiscriminately using different methods. So we can probably dispense with the fiction that there is some kind of civilized faction to contrast with a barbaric faction behaving unspeakably.
Raphsody and I argued this point some time ago. His argument was that those delivering the high tech bombs have no "intention" of killing civilians regardless whether they know that a 2000 lbs bomb being dropped on a residential area does just that. He never would answer my question of whether the pilot dropping that bomb knew where the bomb was being dropped and what it would do... :?
Pilots don't choose their targets they are given to them. They fly their missions report their achieving target destination and then drop their ordinance. There is no judgment to be made on what they bomb because they don't choose what to bomb or not bomb they just follow flight plans. It's a no risk proposition for a pilot. Now close air support is a different subject and they do chose who to shoot at and who not to shoot at. They pick an area that is being called in as hostile and then perform an assessment that still requires an order to allow them to engage a target but they have a lot more say in who gets shot and who doesn't. The drone guys get about the same sterilized information as the pilot who drops bombs. The guy that flies the recon flight doesn't analyze his own data someone else does. That guy writes a report and usually takes all of the known data that they have from local sources and makes it all fit together. Then they write an action report and someone draws up a flight with approved strikes and non approved strikes. The target strike flight pilot only hits his target, he is not told what it was or who it is only where it is. He is never told if the flight kills civilians just that a target was hit with success or failure.
They know, Hoosier.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oc ... -civilians
...

Take the second round of shooting in the 38-minute sequence. It revolves around a dark-coloured minivan that approaches a wounded man lying by the pavement and trying to drag himself to his feet. Two men jump out and go to his aid. Neither is carrying a weapon. They pay no attention to the bodies lying several yards away. Yet the cockpit recording has their commander saying "they have individuals going to the scene, looks like possibly uh picking up bodies and weapons". The helicopters get permission to blast the van regardless, even though firing on people who are aiding casualties violates US rules of engagement and international law.

The intelligence report of the incident says Crazyhorse "engaged AIF". In fact there is nothing seen by the helicopter pilots to show the men are insurgents. Indeed, when US ground troops reach the shot-up van a few minutes later they discover its passengers include two small girls who have been wounded, suggesting it was an innocent civilian vehicle that had rushed to help the wounded victim because it was the nearest transport available.

The third bout of gunfire from the helicopters comes when they destroy a large building on a street corner with three Hellfire missiles. Before firing the first one the pilot says: "There are at least six individuals in that building with weapons." The cockpit video has shown only one man going into the building, carrying something that might be a weapon. Two clearly unarmed men then go in and another unarmed man walks past the entrance seconds before the gunner launches his missile. Over the next few minutes the helicopters fire two more missiles in order to destroy the building completely.

As untrue as the helicopter pilots' live reporting was, the intelligence summary they filed later compounds the lies. Now the alleged gunmen are said to have been running into the building – clearly more suspicious behaviour than walking.
And I imagine that the pilot will be charged with their murder and if found guilty will spend the rest of his life in prison for murder. The military does prosecute it's soldiers for murder when it is found to be either by error or by malice.
Ok, I will look for that story to see what happened to the pilots.
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Enki
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Enki »

They never will put a Tomahawk on a drone, irrelevant.

Pow, splode, kill. Same difference. Life is cheap. Watch what happened to the striking Wal Mart employees if you think there won't be hellfires in your neighborhood.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Hoosiernorm wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:When you are given coordinates for a fire mission you hit your grid as accurately as possible. The drone guys get a building or a house in a specific place. They do not know the occupants of the house or how many or if anyone is there. They just fly missions, it is as plain as that. No one worried too much about the building it's just a building or a house or a complex, it's just stuff they are making strikes on. They fly a strike and go back home to watch the kids play soccer or watch TV, life is not complicated for drone pilots.
Right, like hired killers. "Hey, I just kill who I'm told to kill, it's not like I'm responsible or anything." Great defense, wonder why you don't see it in more criminal trials.

These people are human garbage. Not even willing to admit their own depravity, like a serial killer, or confront the reality if their own actions, like the traditional war criminal or mass murderer covered in gore or human ash. These people kill through the same medium as one controls a video game. What you call the "normalcy" of their lives is the height of perversity. It's also a little pathetic, but then real-life evil usually is.
It's more like a surgery than a chain saw massacre. It's probably about as sterile as killing can get. I'm sure in the future that there will be some refinements to the process to make it cheaper and easier to perform but dropping bombs from an air conditioned office is much more refined. The anti drone movement is getting a lot of press these days and the military and the CIA are catching a lot of criticism for their use against targets in civilian areas. The POTUS isn't catching much of it because for some reason the commander in chief isn't in the loop for approving drone warfare. Right now the current level of concern is probably just a bit above hand wringing and will probably go away after fewer press releases are published. It won't get as big as the prison abuse story was and the folks that are doing most of the current journalism on what has and is occurring are still not getting much face time during election season. The replacement NFL referee stuff made more headlines than anything about drone strikes in Anywherestan. We hear more about Afghan soldiers shooting American troops and it looks like we are getting the heck out of there and will just use drones there on an elevated scale.
Not sure what your point is. That today's method of murdering civilians is more antiseptic? I already said that. That Americans don't care? I've said that before too. Most Americans don't even bother to pretend they are decent country anymore, they'd prefer not to think about it at all.

Not clear why you're saying anything. At first you seemed like you were trying to defend the conduct of your government and military, but now you've backed away from that and are just reinforcing my previous arguments about the moral depravity of the US military and the moral indifference of the US population.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Ibrahim wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:When you are given coordinates for a fire mission you hit your grid as accurately as possible. The drone guys get a building or a house in a specific place. They do not know the occupants of the house or how many or if anyone is there. They just fly missions, it is as plain as that. No one worried too much about the building it's just a building or a house or a complex, it's just stuff they are making strikes on. They fly a strike and go back home to watch the kids play soccer or watch TV, life is not complicated for drone pilots.
Right, like hired killers. "Hey, I just kill who I'm told to kill, it's not like I'm responsible or anything." Great defense, wonder why you don't see it in more criminal trials.

These people are human garbage. Not even willing to admit their own depravity, like a serial killer, or confront the reality if their own actions, like the traditional war criminal or mass murderer covered in gore or human ash. These people kill through the same medium as one controls a video game. What you call the "normalcy" of their lives is the height of perversity. It's also a little pathetic, but then real-life evil usually is.
It's more like a surgery than a chain saw massacre. It's probably about as sterile as killing can get. I'm sure in the future that there will be some refinements to the process to make it cheaper and easier to perform but dropping bombs from an air conditioned office is much more refined. The anti drone movement is getting a lot of press these days and the military and the CIA are catching a lot of criticism for their use against targets in civilian areas. The POTUS isn't catching much of it because for some reason the commander in chief isn't in the loop for approving drone warfare. Right now the current level of concern is probably just a bit above hand wringing and will probably go away after fewer press releases are published. It won't get as big as the prison abuse story was and the folks that are doing most of the current journalism on what has and is occurring are still not getting much face time during election season. The replacement NFL referee stuff made more headlines than anything about drone strikes in Anywherestan. We hear more about Afghan soldiers shooting American troops and it looks like we are getting the heck out of there and will just use drones there on an elevated scale.
Not sure what your point is. That today's method of murdering civilians is more antiseptic? I already said that. That Americans don't care? I've said that before too. Most Americans don't even bother to pretend they are decent country anymore, they'd prefer not to think about it at all.

Not clear why you're saying anything. At first you seemed like you were trying to defend the conduct of your government and military, but now you've backed away from that and are just reinforcing my previous arguments about the moral depravity of the US military and the moral indifference of the US population.
I don't know what it would take to change that, that's my biggest concern. I'm waiting for the social commentarians to finally put a lot of what's going on into something all Americans understand (Movies). There isn't a lot of self social commentary about this for people to reflect upon. Americans haven't met themselves yet on this playing field. I'm not sure how they will take it.
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Hoosiernorm
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Hans Bulvai wrote:Ok, I will look for that story to see what happened to the pilots.
Image

Ten years in a military prison for taking pictures of her actions

The CIA guys will probably walk under the qualified immunity clause, another reason they use them for this type of warfare.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Many Americans are actually big fans of the drone killing, Tinker for example is one of them. I believe he talked glowingly of it as "10,000 ninjas" or some such, he really likes it this way. He likes drone killing. Says Obama is "smart". Fighting smart.

I think many Americans think that hey if these people insist on being terrorists against us this may be the best way to deal with it, better than occupations and the expense and what not. At least this way you don't unleash underlying conflicts like Iraq, where they begin slaughtering each other en masse. If you have a terror problem this is probably the most humane way to deal with it all around.

And they might be right, however it clearly isn't going to work.

And of course there is no reason to take Ibs seriously on any of this, he was very happy to see murdered civilians in Libya, very, very happy. Murder for me and not for thee. He's just blood baiting.
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Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: He still culpable. Essentially this is the "just following orders" defense, which is actually compelling in the sense that in a military setting nobody asks you for your opinion on something, they just tell you to do it. Still, if you are a cog in a machine that is doing X then you are also responsible for X. Drone operators are murderers, plain and simple, even if every military procedure and technological advancement is designed to insulate them from their actions. But not just the operator, all the people involved in the machine at all levels share responsibility, from the guy who sweeps up the hangar to the President. So it was determined at Nuremberg, and how much more so is it true in a country with a volunteer military, where nobody is going to execute you for refusing to fire missiles at children in Yemen?

Now, perhaps you really only meant to say that these military personnel don't know what they are doing. Well, IMO half of them don't care and the other half don't want to know. Regardless, my argument is that if you are shooting missiles at people you had better make it your business to know.
Yeah, this is all baloney. This entire issue bears 100% on one Barack Hussein Obama. Period, end of story anything else is a politicized distraction. Everyone knows and accepts that militaries around the world follow the orders in their chain of command, which ultimately emanate from the top.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Many Americans are actually big fans of the drone killing, Tinker for example is one of them. I believe he talked glowingly of it as "10,000 ninjas" or some such, he really likes it this way. He likes drone killing. Says Obama is "smart". Fighting smart.

I think many Americans think that hey if these people insist on being terrorists against us this may be the best way to deal with it, better than occupations and the expense and what not. At least this way you don't unleash underlying conflicts like Iraq, where they begin slaughtering each other en masse. If you have a terror problem this is probably the most humane way to deal with it all around.

And they might be right, however it clearly isn't going to work.

And of course there is no reason to take Ibs seriously on any of this, he was very happy to see murdered civilians in Libya, very, very happy. Murder for me and not for thee. He's just blood baiting.

sadly, again, must agree with Mr. Perfect

Ibrahim was happy when Qaddafi was sodomized by British agents .. why complain now about Benghazi ? Al-Qaida did Benghazi ? ? :lol: .. who else were you thinking ? ?

come on folks


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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Yes, and plenty of civilians were killed in Libya, no tears from Ibs, nothing but celebration. He is completely bankrupt on the topic, and should never speak of it again.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Mr. Perfect »

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs ... ts-attacks
Two House Republicans say they have been informed by whistleblowers that the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi was attacked and threatened 13 times before the incident last month that killed four Americans.

Reps. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) and Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) sent Secretary of State Hillary Clinton a letter on Tuesday that detailed the whistleblowers’ allegations.

“Based on information provided to the Committee by individuals with direct knowledge of events in Libya, the attack that claimed the ambassador’s life was the latest in a long line of attacks on Western diplomats and officials in Libya in the months leading up to September 11, 2012,” Issa and Chaffetz wrote. “It was clearly never, as Administration officials once insisted, the result of a popular protest."

The congressmen said the consulate asked for more security to deal with the growing threat but was turned down by the administration.

“In addition, multiple U.S. federal government officials have confirmed to the Committee that, prior to the September 11 attack, the U.S. mission in Libya made repeated requests for increased security in Benghazi. The mission in Libya, however, was denied these resources by officials in Washington.”
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Hoosiernorm wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Ok, I will look for that story to see what happened to the pilots.
(Abu Ghraib pic)

Ten years in a military prison for taking pictures of her actions
She didn't do ten years, she's been out for a while. Moreover, nobody higher than sargeant saw an consequences from that incident.


The CIA guys will probably walk under the qualified immunity clause, another reason they use them for this type of warfare.
One thing America decided after 9/11: genuflect laws. Our laws, their laws, it doesn't matter. What good is a constitution anyway? Just shut up and watch football, let the CIA do whatever they want.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Ibrahim wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Ok, I will look for that story to see what happened to the pilots.
(Abu Ghraib pic)

Ten years in a military prison for taking pictures of her actions
She didn't do ten years, she's been out for a while. Moreover, nobody higher than sargeant saw an consequences from that incident.
I was gonna say, she is the fall guy.

Wasn't there some video years ago about US soldiers training in made-up iraqi towns on running down civilians that get infront of their convoys?
Point is, there are many horrible things that happened that people just walked from. Only people like her got that shaft but even that is for public consumption precisely for arguments like this. "See, she went to jail for taking pictures of a bunch of Iraqi dudes holding their dicks" all the while those who authorized the pillaging of a whole country play golf in their country clubs.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Yes, and plenty of civilians were killed in Libya, no tears from Ibs, nothing but celebration. He is completely bankrupt on the topic, and should never speak of it again.
Ibrahim was not happy that civilians died. That is not an accurate thing to say. It is hard not to rejoice, even if for a minute, in the downfall of a tyrant. I don't like what happened to Qadaffi (or what is happening in Syria) because I believe that what will come next will not be much better, but no one is happy about civilians being killed.

If anything, his emotions get ahead of him sometimes in supporting the oppressed.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Hans wrote:Ibrahim was not happy that civilians died. That is not an accurate thing to say. It is hard not to rejoice, even if for a minute, in the downfall of a tyrant. I don't like what happened to Qadaffi (or what is happening in Syria) because I believe that what will come next will not be much better, but no one is happy about civilians being killed.
The Libyan revolution, and the US support of it, was a specific military campaign with a clear objective: to remove Gaddafi from power and replace his regime. That limited objective and limited war were successful. Compare this to extra-judicial killings of civilians (including US citizens) in a place like Yemen, or the decade of killing civilians in Afghanistan for no clear purpose whatsoever. Then compare this to Syria, where huge numbers of civilians are being deliberately killed during a civil war. I didn't even say that the US or anyone else has some obligation to interfere, but at least there is an obvious point to the civil war, to determine the future government of that country.


The problem with US military action since 9/11 is that, aside from routinely killing civilians or detaining and torturing many people who may or may not being guilty of doing something, there is no coherent purpose behind it. It's the difference between the police shooting a dangerous armed suspect, and a madman firing into a movie theater.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Hans Bulvai wrote: Only people like her got that shaft but even that is for public consumption precisely for arguments like this. "See, she went to jail for taking pictures of a bunch of Iraqi dudes holding their dicks" all the while those who authorized the pillaging of a whole country play golf in their country clubs.
There is no political or social solution to fix that problem.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Ibrahim wrote:One thing America decided after 9/11: genuflect laws. Our laws, their laws, it doesn't matter. What good is a constitution anyway? Just shut up and watch football, let the CIA do whatever they want.
It's not even a political issue in an election year. Jobs, the economy, healthcare, the budget but not much on the current wars in the middle east. Romney talks about his support of Israel and Obama talks about how important Israel is to America but no one is talking about the how or whats of the current war. There was a couple of days where they talked about time lines but really no one is making much hay on what they would do differently. I'm sure there will be a few youtube debates or facebook debates where someone will ask about Veterans but I doubt the CIA or drones will come up during the debates. Like I said it isn't part of the American social conscious and much like the Dresden bombings it will probably not be a subject of the American public for the next 10 to 20 years. I can't think of a single history book I read as a student that ever mentioned civilian casualties and doubt if they put such items into history books even now. I can't think of a single book about the subject and beyond a few internet stories here and there it's just not really written about. The only movie that I can think of that has anything approaching our foreign policy directive is Syriana where the character played by Alexander Siddig is murdered to maintain the US's interest in the region.
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Hoosiernorm wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:One thing America decided after 9/11: genuflect laws. Our laws, their laws, it doesn't matter. What good is a constitution anyway? Just shut up and watch football, let the CIA do whatever they want.
It's not even a political issue in an election year. Jobs, the economy, healthcare, the budget but not much on the current wars in the middle east. Romney talks about his support of Israel and Obama talks about how important Israel is to America but no one is talking about the how or whats of the current war. There was a couple of days where they talked about time lines but really no one is making much hay on what they would do differently. I'm sure there will be a few youtube debates or facebook debates where someone will ask about Veterans but I doubt the CIA or drones will come up during the debates. Like I said it isn't part of the American social conscious and much like the Dresden bombings it will probably not be a subject of the American public for the next 10 to 20 years. I can't think of a single history book I read as a student that ever mentioned civilian casualties and doubt if they put such items into history books even now. I can't think of a single book about the subject and beyond a few internet stories here and there it's just not really written about. The only movie that I can think of that has anything approaching our foreign policy directive is Syriana where the character played by Alexander Siddig is murdered to maintain the US's interest in the region.
He was good in Cairo Time.

I feel bad for Americans, because the new power the government and military have arrogated to themselves will eventually be turned on other Americans ("real" Americans, not just Anwar al-Awlaki and his son), but by then it will be established practice.
Hoosiernorm
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

I'm sure it will not be dropped to the concerns of the local police. Drones will be used by federal law enforcement primarily. There isn't enough air space for everyone to have one. Besides they can figure out a lot of it by tracking computers, cell phones, ad purchase histories.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: The Libyan revolution, and the US support of it, was a specific military campaign with a clear objective: to remove Gaddafi from power and replace his regime.
Actually, that was not the stated objective. And your objective reminds me of Iraq.
That limited objective and limited war were successful.
It wasn't even the objective and it was successful in the same way the Iraq war was successful (way over timeline and budget).
Compare this to extra-judicial killings of civilians (including US citizens) in a place like Yemen, or the decade of killing civilians in Afghanistan for no clear purpose whatsoever.

People who support the war say it has a purpose.
Then compare this to Syria, where huge numbers of civilians are being deliberately killed during a civil war. I didn't even say that the US or anyone else has some obligation to interfere, but at least there is an obvious point to the civil war, to determine the future government of that country.

The problem with US military action since 9/11 is that, aside from routinely killing civilians or detaining and torturing many people who may or may not being guilty of doing something, there is no coherent purpose behind it. It's the difference between the police shooting a dangerous armed suspect, and a madman firing into a movie theater.
Either way, civilians were murdered in Libya just like any of these other theaters, you happily supported Libya, so you happily supported murder just like any Paul Wolfowitz type, and so of course have no grounds to complain about any of this.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Ibrahim »

Hoosiernorm wrote:I'm sure it will not be dropped to the concerns of the local police. Drones will be used by federal law enforcement primarily. There isn't enough air space for everyone to have one. Besides they can figure out a lot of it by tracking computers, cell phones, ad purchase histories.
Drones are just one method. If the government feels that it has the power to execute or indefinitely detain US citizens (as it already has done) whenever it declares there is some connection to terrorism, then it isn't hard to imagine that same government expanding those powers whenever they find it convenient. It's that old cliche about not speaking up when they came for groups X, Y, and Z, and now nobody is left to speak up when they come for you.
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Enki
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Re: Attacks on US diplomats/embassies.

Post by Enki »

State Strikeforces are sent against Wal Mart employees. Occupiers get beaten and arrested. Peaceful Anarchist Protesters are on no-fly lists. The FBI, Austin PD and others are conducting agent provocateur operations throughout the country. And you think that they'll never come for people in your own back yard?

We live in a country where municipalities rip out people's gardens. There will eventually be some freedom that YOU personally care about that will be taken.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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monster_gardener
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Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

SlaughterHouse Five in Dresden.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Hoosiernorm wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:One thing America decided after 9/11: genuflect laws. Our laws, their laws, it doesn't matter. What good is a constitution anyway? Just shut up and watch football, let the CIA do whatever they want.
It's not even a political issue in an election year. Jobs, the economy, healthcare, the budget but not much on the current wars in the middle east. Romney talks about his support of Israel and Obama talks about how important Israel is to America but no one is talking about the how or whats of the current war. There was a couple of days where they talked about time lines but really no one is making much hay on what they would do differently. I'm sure there will be a few youtube debates or facebook debates where someone will ask about Veterans but I doubt the CIA or drones will come up during the debates. Like I said it isn't part of the American social conscious and much like the Dresden bombings it will probably not be a subject of the American public for the next 10 to 20 years. I can't think of a single history book I read as a student that ever mentioned civilian casualties and doubt if they put such items into history books even now. I can't think of a single book about the subject and beyond a few internet stories here and there it's just not really written about. The only movie that I can think of that has anything approaching our foreign policy directive is Syriana where the character played by Alexander Siddig is murdered to maintain the US's interest in the region.
Thank You Very Much for your Post, HoosierNorm....
Like I said it isn't part of the American social conscious and much like the Dresden bombings it will probably not be a subject of the American public for the next 10 to 20 years.
The only movie that I can think of that has anything approaching our foreign policy
Here is another.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five

DvlZtlBfCi0


On the other hand, imagining if I were the last Jew in the Warsaw Ghetto and had a Salted Nuke and the wind were blowing toward Germany..........

Or in Dimona and the wind were blowing toward Iran or Mecca........

Lead me or they not into temptation..........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
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