Richest Jew in the World visits Prime Minister Erdogan

[Jnalum Persicum]

.

I agree. It's about time those people start to talk. Netanyahu is a bit of an unimaginative dork.

.

Western Joe, is made to believe, with, talking, negotiating and and and .. things will get somehow solved .. western elite, the system, to fool the mass, creates that mindset and thinking

Talk what ? ?

Negotiate what ? ?


It is not so, as if, Zionist don't know what Pali say or want

It is not so, as if, Pali don't know what Zionist are up to

It is not so, as if, Iranians do not know what Americans want and say

and

It is not so, as if, Americans are unclear what Iranians say and want

those potions are Christal clear .. they have been rehashed and rehashed and rehashed since 33, 75 years

What will bring a brake-through, is, one side must collapse, leading to realization that their position is unattainable anymore, and, time will make things worst for them

if so

things will move fast, very fast

Israel is losing on all fronts .. world is pulling back from Zionist Israel .. Israel's enemy becoming stronger and stronger, Zionist losing the military competitive edge .. things becoming worst for Israel .. time is against Israel .. when Zionist realize things going downhill and nothing more can be have from west (west broke) .. that is when things gonno move .. and move fast

Same with America versus Iran

Iran used to hardship last 33 yrs, things bad last 33 yrs .. and .. Iranians used hardship

Not so America, America is in retreat and things going from bad to worst

Once America/West realizes, Iran immune to western pressure, in contrary, any western new pressure leads to Iranian strength, as happened last 33 yrs .. once West realizes they lost Afghansitan and Iraq and running the danger of losing Saudi and Qatar and and and .. once west realizes that .. that is when west will see the value of Iran for west and change the policy towards Iran .. already happening

B4 all above things happening , talk and negotiation and meeting has no meaning and just to fool Joe



.

[Enki]

I agree. It's about time those people start to talk. Netanyahu is a bit of an unimaginative dork.

Perhaps Bibi wasn't serious. He only wanted to look like he was interested in dialogue.

He probably would have sent someone else if he really was interested in dialogue.[/quote]

Does that guy do business in Turkey?

[Parodite]

Azi, what is needed is all too obvious and much too simple to be true, I know. It would be a miracle if all parties acted at once at the same time, but at least one should take the lead. Could be Israel.. could be Iran. Or both,, or even Hamas and Hezbollah!

1. Iran should stop with their hysteric cult of anti-Zionist hate speech. Talk peace, respectful, diplomatic, even handed, impartial. Or simply be silent. Leave Lebanon and Syria to their own devices. Meddling in other peoples affairs in the ME usually is the recipe for more wars and civilians in the ten thousands paying a horrid price. Iran like all ME nations has enough internal issues that need full attention.
2. Israel freeze all settlement expansion in the West bank. Or better also remove some more as a sign of good will. Demand and enforce highest morals of Israeli police and army when it comes to Palestinians living in the West bank especially along the security fence.
3. Israel don't demand from Hamas to recognize Israel, just work for the moment towards an stable enough long term cease fire to normalize relations. (Hamas is in a self declared state of war with Israel)
4. Palestinians in West bank and Gaza officially renounce and denounce violence, notably the targeting of civilians with rockets and suicide bombers blowing up cafes, restaurants, school buses etc.
5. Israel don't overreact when terrorism continues. You can't kill 50 terrorists and take the "collateral death" of 1000 civilians for granted as an acceptable number. It is immoral.

As an Israeli PM, I would shove this politely under the nose of Achmadine and propose to make it a real joint effort to move the whole process in that direction. Israel and Iran taking the lead in it. I would also do reversed or surprise-psychology and publicly declare that Iran should be allowed to have its own nuclear technology, that if they decide at any day that it is in their interest to have a nuclear WMD deterrent .. it is their own choice and responsibility. Nobody elses. That economic sanctions never are effective and only hit, if not kill the already vulnerable, that again the West is using the wrong tool jumping on a dysfunctional bandwagon that is ineffective and immoral.

See how Iran responds. War can wait.

[Ibrahim]

Attitudes towards Israel are worsening all over the world, and as racism and bigotry in many forms have become increasingly fashionable it only stands to reason that anti-Jewish sentiment and anti-Semitism would also become fashionable at the same time, as all forms of discrimination are essentially the same pathology. Consider: Arabs are one of the most reviled groups in the world post-9/11, and Jews have always been targets for unprovoked discrimination. Seeing that both groups are technically Semites, we are probably living in the most anti-Semitic period in history since 1945.

But bigotry and prejudice aside, is there some reason that Turks should have a good attitude towards Israel as a country? And, as relations decay, is there some reason this attitude wouldn't be reciprocal? Turkey was a supporter of Israel, for various reasons both selfish and altruistic, for decades, but recently that relationship has soured. The Spenglerian excuse of "Turkey is going Islamist" doesn't wash with anybody who knows anything about anything, so we must look for more practical explanations.

Actually, despite the destruction of the World Trade Center in September 2001, the discrimination against Muslims in Canada and the United States has increased a lot less than the corresponding increase in the anti-Jewish prejudice in Turkey.

Indeed, because Israeli conduct towards the Palestinians has worsened, and become ore effectively publicized by Israeli and Palestinian activists (and the unfortunate-for-Israel invention of YouTube). 9/11 isn't really connected to Turkey, and very marginally connected to Israel insofar as Israel knew they could get more out of Washington as a result.
As for Canadian attitudes towards Muslims, I haven't noted much traction for the Spencer/Steyn crowd here. A bit more crazy internet talk after 9/11, but nothing that translated into results. There was more most hostility in the US, and especially Europe due to the ghettoization of immigrant communities and greater friction with the local population.

This is in contrast with the fact that after the Asian Turkic republics gained their independence from the Soviet empire, it became apparent that in Asian Turkic Muslim countries like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc, Jews are considered brothers and they are highly esteemed despite the wars in the Middle East. It is astounding that the Jews of Azerbaijan who live in Israel, are so nostalgic that they implore the Azeri representatives who visit Israel, to lecture in Turkish instead of English when they are in Israel, to remember the good old days. Even the Russian satellite country Chechnya, their Mountain Jews are considered first Turkish and then Jewish.

There are plenty of examples of historical coexistence and cooperation, and still are today. My point is only about an increase in hostility in the past decade.

One problem is the recent Germanization of Islam in Turkey and many Middle Eastern Muslim countries.

This makes no sense to me at all. Even if you are talking about Nazi-era pseudo-scientific theories of anti-Semitism this would not be question of religion per se.

[HAL9000]

Attitudes towards Israel are worsening all over the world, and as racism and bigotry in many forms have become increasingly fashionable it only stands to reason that anti-Jewish sentiment and anti-Semitism would also become fashionable at the same time, as all forms of discrimination are essentially the same pathology. Consider: Arabs are one of the most reviled groups in the world post-9/11, and Jews have always been targets for unprovoked discrimination. Seeing that both groups are technically Semites, we are probably living in the most anti-Semitic period in history since 1945.

But bigotry and prejudice aside, is there some reason that Turks should have a good attitude towards Israel as a country? And, as relations decay, is there some reason this attitude wouldn't be reciprocal? Turkey was a supporter of Israel, for various reasons both selfish and altruistic, for decades, but recently that relationship has soured. The Spenglerian excuse of "Turkey is going Islamist" doesn't wash with anybody who knows anything about anything, so we must look for more practical explanations.

Actually, despite the destruction of the World Trade Center in September 2001, the discrimination against Muslims in Canada and the United States has increased a lot less than the corresponding increase in the anti-Jewish prejudice in Turkey.

1) Indeed, because Israeli conduct towards the Palestinians has worsened, and become ore effectively publicized by Israeli and Palestinian activists (and the unfortunate-for-Israel invention of YouTube). 9/11 isn't really connected to Turkey, and very marginally connected to Israel insofar as Israel knew they could get more out of Washington as a result.
As for Canadian attitudes towards Muslims, I haven't noted much traction for the Spencer/Steyn crowd here. A bit more crazy internet talk after 9/11, but nothing that translated into results. There was more most hostility in the US, and especially Europe due to the ghettoization of immigrant communities and greater friction with the local population.

This is in contrast with the fact that after the Asian Turkic republics gained their independence from the Soviet empire, it became apparent that in Asian Turkic Muslim countries like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc, Jews are considered brothers and they are highly esteemed despite the wars in the Middle East. It is astounding that the Jews of Azerbaijan who live in Israel, are so nostalgic that they implore the Azeri representatives who visit Israel, to lecture in Turkish instead of English when they are in Israel, to remember the good old days. Even the Russian satellite country Chechnya, their Mountain Jews are considered first Turkish and then Jewish.

There are plenty of examples of historical coexistence and cooperation, and still are today. My point is only about an increase in hostility in the past decade.

One problem is the recent Germanization of Islam in Turkey and many Middle Eastern Muslim countries.

2) This makes no sense to me at all. Even if you are talking about Nazi-era pseudo-scientific theories of anti-Semitism this would not be question of religion per se.

[Emphasis added by HAL 9000]





1) As for the Israeli treatment of Palestinians that you mention, none of this should justify the hostility to Turkish Jews, most of whom have not even visited Israel as a tourist, unless, you want to say that it is OK for Ataturk's Turkey to become uncivilized. You keep invoking Israel where it is not relevant, as if it should explain the new antisemitism in Turkey, which is agitated politically. Actually, it would "explain" part of the mechanism of the Turkish politics, but it would not justify the civilization behind the behavior of the people in Turkey. When I invoked 9/11, this was to show that despite an attack on Western countries and in particular America, there has been little increase in discrimination against American Muslims, showing that there should not be discrimination against Turkish Jews because of Israel.(But there is massive discrimination using Israel as excuse.)

2) It should not make sense to anyone indeed. But the Islamist circles in Turkey have incorporated in their religious theories, European racial antisemitism as part of their opposition to international Jewish conspiracy that they say is trying to damage Turkey physically within Anatolia. Ideas from the Protocols of Elders of Zion are quoted as inspiration to their theories in Turkey. Wait for the future new thread dedicated to this subject alone.

[Ibrahim]

Attitudes towards Israel are worsening all over the world, and as racism and bigotry in many forms have become increasingly fashionable it only stands to reason that anti-Jewish sentiment and anti-Semitism would also become fashionable at the same time, as all forms of discrimination are essentially the same pathology. Consider: Arabs are one of the most reviled groups in the world post-9/11, and Jews have always been targets for unprovoked discrimination. Seeing that both groups are technically Semites, we are probably living in the most anti-Semitic period in history since 1945.

But bigotry and prejudice aside, is there some reason that Turks should have a good attitude towards Israel as a country? And, as relations decay, is there some reason this attitude wouldn't be reciprocal? Turkey was a supporter of Israel, for various reasons both selfish and altruistic, for decades, but recently that relationship has soured. The Spenglerian excuse of "Turkey is going Islamist" doesn't wash with anybody who knows anything about anything, so we must look for more practical explanations.

Actually, despite the destruction of the World Trade Center in September 2001, the discrimination against Muslims in Canada and the United States has increased a lot less than the corresponding increase in the anti-Jewish prejudice in Turkey.

1) Indeed, because Israeli conduct towards the Palestinians has worsened, and become ore effectively publicized by Israeli and Palestinian activists (and the unfortunate-for-Israel invention of YouTube). 9/11 isn't really connected to Turkey, and very marginally connected to Israel insofar as Israel knew they could get more out of Washington as a result.
As for Canadian attitudes towards Muslims, I haven't noted much traction for the Spencer/Steyn crowd here. A bit more crazy internet talk after 9/11, but nothing that translated into results. There was more most hostility in the US, and especially Europe due to the ghettoization of immigrant communities and greater friction with the local population.

This is in contrast with the fact that after the Asian Turkic republics gained their independence from the Soviet empire, it became apparent that in Asian Turkic Muslim countries like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc, Jews are considered brothers and they are highly esteemed despite the wars in the Middle East. It is astounding that the Jews of Azerbaijan who live in Israel, are so nostalgic that they implore the Azeri representatives who visit Israel, to lecture in Turkish instead of English when they are in Israel, to remember the good old days. Even the Russian satellite country Chechnya, their Mountain Jews are considered first Turkish and then Jewish.

There are plenty of examples of historical coexistence and cooperation, and still are today. My point is only about an increase in hostility in the past decade.

One problem is the recent Germanization of Islam in Turkey and many Middle Eastern Muslim countries.

2) This makes no sense to me at all. Even if you are talking about Nazi-era pseudo-scientific theories of anti-Semitism this would not be question of religion per se.

[Emphasis added by HAL 9000]





1) As for the Israeli treatment of Palestinians that you mention, none of this should justify the hostility to Turkish Jews,

True, but just as some people confuse criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, some people confuse the actions of some Israelis with Jews as a whole. I am not saying that it is rational on the part of those who think this way, only that the perceptions and actions of Israel are what fuels anti-Semitism in the region.

most of whom have not even visited Israel as a tourist, unless, you want to say that it is OK for Ataturk's Turkey to become uncivilized.

I didn't say anything about it being "ok," but incivility is on the rise in the region generally, from uncivilized conduct in the Afghan or Iraqi wars, incivility in Israel, incivility from and towards Iran, and of course incivility in Turkey as well.

You keep invoking Israel where it is not relevant, as if it should explain the new antisemitism in Turkey,

It is very relevant to Turkey, especially considering that Israel murdered Turkish citizens while attacking a Turkish-flagged ship only recently.

2) It should not make sense to anyone indeed. But the Islamist circles in Turkey have incorporated in their religious theories, European racial antisemitism as part of their opposition to international Jewish conspiracy that they say is trying to damage Turkey physically within Anatolia. Ideas from the Protocols of Elders of Zion are quoted as inspiration to their theories in Turkey. Wait for the future new thread dedicated to this subject alone.

This attempts to unite too many different threads in Turkish and broader Middle Eastern society. There may be people in any country (in this case Turkey) who may be anti-Semitic for ethnic reasons, hate Israel for bleeding-heart student activist reasons, hate Jews for "Germanized" anti-Semitic theories, who hate Jews because they hate all non-Muslims for extremist "Islamist" reasons, who are bitter about the flotilla incident, and so on. To tie them all together into the same theory of why there is more anti-Semitism in Turkey is just too tidy to be realistic.

[HAL9000]

most of whom have not even visited Israel as a tourist, unless, you want to say that it is OK for Ataturk's Turkey to become uncivilized.

1) I didn't say anything about it being "ok," but incivility is on the rise in the region generally, from uncivilized conduct in the Afghan or Iraqi wars, incivility in Israel, incivility from and towards Iran, and of course incivility in Turkey as well.

You keep invoking Israel where it is not relevant, as if it should explain the new antisemitism in Turkey,

2)
It is very relevant to Turkey, especially considering that Israel murdered Turkish citizens while attacking a Turkish-flagged ship only recently.

[Emphasis added by HAL 9000
]

2) It is relevant, but in a far more barbaric way than the behavior of the American people after 9/11. The attack on the World Trade Center was even more intense than the 9 Turkish citizens who died in the clash with Israeli navy. But there was minimal increase in discrimination in the US. In Turkey 25 % Jews had to leave, and the rest are harassed very often. THIS is far more barbaric, and Turkey should be different. And it used to be different.


1) Again, the relative increase in barbarism is the issue in Turkey, and the ability to add racial antisemitism and combine Jews in Turkey with Israelis is opportunism, not just popular reaction.



3) LATER I will write another thread demonstrating with chronological evidence that the Turkish agitation against Jews started long before the wars in the Middle East, before the Gaza war, before the Mavi Marmara, and before even the war against Hezbollah. It started during the 1970s and started to bear fruit during the 1990s and 2000s, especially with the help of the political movement started by Professor Dr. Erbakan, whose followers started to make lists of Turks who have ancestors who converted from Judaism to Islam more than 300 years ago. The trouble is that after so many years of intermarriage, there are hundreds of thousands of Turks who have 1 % Jewish blood, and yet they are still labeled as "Donmes". This witch hunt is becoming very oppressive, and some Turks themselves are also getting upset, especially because in this calculus, even if the population of Turkey does not increase, the mixing of genes will cause 90 % of the Turks to have some Jewish ancestry after sufficiently more generations, and so unless the followers of Dr. Erbakan find a way to get rid of the people who have Donme ancestry, these Donmes will probably start revolting against this political movement. You will see the information that I will translate from Turkish to English for this forum.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Reminds me of Herzl & Rothschild wanting to buy Palestine from Ottomans when Sultan needed money badly (was pretty much bankrupt)

The Ottoman Sultan Abd-al Hamid II rejects Herzl's proposal


1876 - 1918 The Last Days of Ottoman Rule

oh...... I suppose they could've follow the time-honoured tradition and raised an invading army to take it by force. That would've made it all better wouldn't it?........

[Jnalum Persicum]

Reminds me of Herzl & Rothschild wanting to buy Palestine from Ottomans when Sultan needed money badly (was pretty much bankrupt)

The Ottoman Sultan Abd-al Hamid II rejects Herzl's proposal


1876 - 1918 The Last Days of Ottoman Rule

oh...... I suppose they could've follow the time-honored tradition and raised an invading army to take it by force. That would've made it all better wouldn't it?.......

.

Yes, that is what they finally did

but

that time-honored tradition always leads to failure down the road .. which is happening now

Cyrus : rule by justice, and not by sword


.

[Ibrahim]

most of whom have not even visited Israel as a tourist, unless, you want to say that it is OK for Ataturk's Turkey to become uncivilized.

1) I didn't say anything about it being "ok," but incivility is on the rise in the region generally, from uncivilized conduct in the Afghan or Iraqi wars, incivility in Israel, incivility from and towards Iran, and of course incivility in Turkey as well.

You keep invoking Israel where it is not relevant, as if it should explain the new antisemitism in Turkey,

2)
It is very relevant to Turkey, especially considering that Israel murdered Turkish citizens while attacking a Turkish-flagged ship only recently.

[Emphasis added by HAL 9000
]

2) It is relevant, but in a far more barbaric way than the behavior of the American people after 9/11. The attack on the World Trade Center was even more intense than the 9 Turkish citizens who died in the clash with Israeli navy. But there was minimal increase in discrimination in the US. In Turkey 25 % Jews had to leave, and the rest are harassed very often. THIS is far more barbaric, and Turkey should be different. And it used to be different.

So everybody is behaving badly, but some worse than others? Perhaps.

1) Again, the relative increase in barbarism is the issue in Turkey, and the ability to add racial antisemitism and combine Jews in Turkey with Israelis is opportunism, not just popular reaction.

How do you know that for sure? Israeli barbarism towards Palestinians is increasing, so why is one increase in barbarism justifiable to you, and the other shocking and abhorrent?

3) LATER I will write another thread demonstrating with chronological evidence that the Turkish agitation against Jews started long before the wars in the Middle East, before the Gaza war, before the Mavi Marmara, and before even the war against Hezbollah. It started during the 1970s and started to bear fruit during the 1990s and 2000s, especially with the help of the political movement started by Professor Dr. Erbakan, whose followers started to make lists of Turks who have ancestors who converted from Judaism to Islam more than 300 years ago. The trouble is that after so many years of intermarriage, there are hundreds of thousands of Turks who have 1 % Jewish blood, and yet they are still labeled as "Donmes". This witch hunt is becoming very oppressive, and some Turks themselves are also getting upset, especially because in this calculus, even if the population of Turkey does not increase, the mixing of genes will cause 90 % of the Turks to have some Jewish ancestry after sufficiently more generations, and so unless the followers of Dr. Erbakan find a way to get rid of the people who have Donme ancestry, these Donmes will probably start revolting against this political movement. You will see the information that I will translate from Turkish to English for this forum.

I don't see why this is even relevant or interesting. Certainly anti-Semites in Turkey, as elsewhere, have their own literature and justification for their views. Usually its shared literature of the worldwide tradition of modern anti-Semitism, going back to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and so on. You want to argue that this is the explanation for worsening attitudes towards Jews in Turkey? Well this kind of material has been around for centuries, whereas the increasingly brutal behavior of Israelis towards Palestinians in a newer occurrence. I'm saying recent events are a better explanation for a recent change, you say different. Translating and posting a bunch of anti-Semitic ranting doesn't make the case either way. Nobody disputes that this material exists, but transcribe a bunch of it if you want to.

[HAL9000]

1) Again, the relative increase in barbarism is the issue in Turkey, and the ability to add racial antisemitism and combine Jews in Turkey with Israelis is opportunism, not just popular reaction.

How do you know that for sure? Israeli barbarism towards Palestinians is increasing, so why is one increase in barbarism justifiable to you, and the other shocking and abhorrent?

You will see when I write the article about Professor Dr. Erbakan's activities since the 1970s, where he invents a Jewish conspiracy as a threat to the physical existence of Turkey and Islam in general. The late Dr. Erbakan's admirers are in the millions, and his legacy is expanding. This is above and beyond the plight of Palestinians.