Richest Jew in the World visits Prime Minister Erdogan

[HAL9000]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 79,00.html

Erdogan: Jewish tycoon mediated between Israel, Turkey
Turkish PM tells Hurriyet newspaper Israel sent Jewish businessman, likely Ronald Lauder, to Ankara to mediate between two nations
Ynet
Published: 09.20.12, 08:28 / Israel News

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said last Monday that a Jewish tycoon was sent to Ankara to mediate between Israel and Turkey.

A newspaper report suggests that the mediator is Ronald Lauder, a close associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who previously mediated between Israel and Syria.

In an interview with Hurriyet newspaper, Erdogan said, "They sent us the world's richest Jew several months ago." He was answering a question on the current state of Israel Turkey relations. He noted that Israel has ties with one Muslim state and advised Israeli leaders to maintain good relations with Ankara.

Erdogan further stressed he has not forgotten about the 2010 Gaza flotilla raid, in which nine Turks were killed. He stipulated three conditions necessary for the reestablishment of relations with Ankara: an apology for the killing of Turkish citizens, compensation for the victims' families and the lifting of the Gaza blockade.

[Emphasis added by HAL 9000]


Since the prime minister made this statement to a local newspaper, this was probably for internal consumption. I can understand that Mr. Erdogan rejected the Jewish leader representing Israel by insisting that unless Israel lifts the blockade of Gaza, he will not normalize relations with Israel. But why mention to the Hurriyet newspaper that this Jewish representative is the richest Jew in the world? What is the relevance in this context? Why associate Jews with money when the issue has nothing to do with finance?

It seems to me that what Mr. Erdogan is trying to emphasize that he is so uncompromising and serious that even the Jewish money could not make him change his mind about his support for Palestinians. I agree that no amount of money can buy Mr. Erdogan, but his choice of words and generalizations are inappropriate for a person at his official level.

[Jnalum Persicum]

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Reminds me of Herzl & Rothschild wanting to buy Palestine from Ottomans when Sultan needed money badly (was pretty much bankrupt)

The Ottoman Sultan Abd-al Hamid II rejects Herzl's proposal


1876 - 1918 The Last Days of Ottoman Rule

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1876 - 1877

Ottoman constitution promulgated. Palestinian deputies from Jerusalem attend the first Ottoman parliament in Istanbul, elected under a new Ottoman constitution.

1878

Petah Tikva, the first modern Zionist agricultural settlement, established in Palestine.

1881

Ottoman government announces permission for foreign Jews to settle throughout the Ottoman Empire, excluding Palestine.

1882

First wave of 25,000 Zionist immigrants enters Palestine, coming mainly from Eastern Europe.
Baron Edmond de Rothschild of Paris begins financial backing of Jewish colonization of Palestine.
Ottoman government adopts policy allowing Jewish pilgrims and businessmen to visit Palestine but not to settle there.
Ottoman government informs Jewish leadership in Constantinople that it views Zionist colonization in Palestine as a political problem.

1884

Ottoman government decides to close Palestine to foreign Jewish businessmen but not to Jewish pilgrims.

1887 - 1888

Palestine divided by Ottomans into the districts of Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre - the first was attached directly to Istanbul, the others to the wilayet of Beirut.

1891

German Jewish millionaire, Baron Maurice de Hirsh, founds Jewish Colonization Association (JCA).

1892

Ottoman government forbids sale of state land to Foreign Jews in Palestine.

1893

European powers pressure Ottoman government to permit Jews legally residents in Palestine to buy land provided they establish no colonies on it.

1896

Jewish Colonization Association (JCA) begins operations in Palestine.
Theodore Herzl, an Austro-Hungarian Jewish journalist and writer, publishes Der Judenstaat, advocating establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine or elsewhere.
Ottoman Sultan Abd-al Hamid II rejects Herzl's proposal that Palestine be granted to the Jews.
JCA starts assisting Zionist settlement in Palestine.

1897

First Zionist Congress in Switzerland issues the Basle Program calling for the establishment of a "home for the Jewish people in Palestine". It also establishes the World Zionist Organization (WZO) to work to that end.
In response to First Zionist Congress, Abd-al Hamid II initiates policy of sending members of his own Palace staff to govern province of Jerusalem.
Commission headed by Muhammad Tahir al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, appointed to scrutinize Zionist land acquisition methods.

1898

Arabic press reacts to first Zionist Congress: Cairo journal al-Manar warns that Zionism aims to take possession of Palestine.

1899

Albert Antebi, JCA representative in Jerusalem, observes that program of First Zionist Congress has adversely affected relations between Palestinians and Jewish immigrants.
Herzl sends letter to Palestinian Mayor of Jerusalem hinting that, if Zionists not welcomed in Palestine, they will go elsewhere.

1900

Ottoman government sends commission of inquiry to Palestine to study implications of Zionist mass immigration and land acquisition.

1901

Pressured by European powers, Ottoman government allows foreign Jews to buy land in Northern Palestine.
Jewish National Fund (JNF) set up by Fifth Zionist Congress in Basle to acquire land for WZO; land acquired by JNF to be inalienably Jewish, and exclusively Jewish labor to be employed on it.
Ottoman restrictions on Zionist immigration to and land acquisition in Jerusalem district take effect.
Administrative Council of Jerusalem strongly objects to JCA 's attempts at acquiring in Jerusalem district.
Palestinian farmers in Tiberias region express alarm at extent of Zionist land acquisition.

1902

JCA representative Antebi observes that "the ill will of the local population coincides with the creation of Zionism".

1903

Second wave of Zionist mass immigration to Palestine begins.

1904

Death of Theodore Herzl.
Tensions develop between Zionist colonists and Palestinian farmers in Tiberias region.

1907

First kibbutz, based on exclusively Jewish labor, established.
Report issued by Ottoman governor of Jerusalem on Zionist evasion of Ottoman immigration and land-transfer regulations.

1908

Palestinian deputies from Jerusalem, Jaffa, Nablus and Acre elected to Ottoman parliament of 1908 in Constantinople.
Beginning of "Young Turks" Revolution in Constantinople.

1909

Tel Aviv founded north of Jaffa.
Tensions and clashes between Zionist colonists and Palestinian farmers near Nazareth.
Zionists issue raised for the first time in Ottoman parliament by Palestinian deputy from Jaffa.

1910

Arabic newspapers in Beirut, Damascus and Haifa express opposition to Zionist land acquisition in Palestine.

1911

European powers pressure Ottoman government to allow land acquisition in Palestine.
Palestinian newspaper Filastine begins to appear; addressing its readers as "Palestinians", it warns about consequences of Zionist colonization.
Two Jerusalem deputies open first full-scale debate in Ottoman parliament on Zionism, charging that Zionist aim is to create Jewish state in Palestine.

1912

European powers renew pressure on Ottoman government to facilitate Zionist land acquisition in Palestine.

1914

World War I starts.

1915

Correspondence between Sharif Hussein of Mecca (leader of the Arab Revolt against the Ottomans) and Sir Henry McMahon (British high commissioner of Egypt) begins.
Jemal Pasha, Ottoman military governor, hangs 11 Arab nationalists in Beirut.

1916

Hussein - McMahon correspondence ends in agreement for postwar independence and unity of Arab provinces of Ottoman Empire.
Sykes - Picot Agreement secretly signed, dividing Ottoman Empire between Britain and France. Agreement revealed by Bolsheviks in December 1917.
Sharif Hussein proclaims Arab independence from Ottoman on basis of his correspondence with Mc Mahon. Arab Revolt against Constantinople begins.
Sharif Hussein proclaimed "King of the Arab countries".

1917

Balfour Declaration. British Secretary of State Balfour pledges British support for a "Jewish national home in Palestine".
Surrender of Ottoman forces in Jerusalem to Allied forces under General Sir Edmund Allenby.

1918

Palestine occupied by Allied forces under British General Allenby.
End of World War I.

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Selling principles for money is prostitution

Zionist should send a Rabbi to argue Moral and ethics with Turks .. to argue Zionist wish and demands based on moral and ethical norms and not the money guy


BTW, HAL9000 , why not post this in Turkey or Israel thread .. I would have got a warning for doing that



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[Ibrahim]

Why wouldn't Turkey support Palestinians? Why would they back Israeli aggression towards Iran? What was this envoy supposed to accomplish given that the Israeli government isn't budging on either of these issues? Plus flotilla incident.



Very few nations in the world enthusiastically support Israel anymore. Typically only the US, Canada and a few others, based on voting at the UN.

[HAL9000]

Why wouldn't Turkey support Palestinians? Why would they back Israeli aggression towards Iran? What was this envoy supposed to accomplish given that the Israeli government isn't budging on either of these issues? Plus flotilla incident.



Very few nations in the world enthusiastically support Israel anymore. Typically only the US, Canada and a few others, based on voting at the UN.

As I said above, I fully understand Turkey's and Erdogan's political position. Stop deviating from the main topic.

I only pointed out the need of Mr Erdogan to insinuate things by associating Jews with money as a natural phenomenon. He did not even finish his sentence in Hurriyet newspapaper's interview, he only said "they sent me the richest Jew". Why not just say that he simply rejected the Jewish representative because Israel did not lift the blockade? Why use Jews to magnify his prestige? That was my only complaint.

It is true that Herzl offered financial support to the Ottoman Empire in exchange for land in the Middle East, but so far you are not providing any proof that THIS time money was involved in the discussion. And even if Israel did offer money (surely financial compensation should be paid to the families of the 9 Turks who died), why apply financial attributes to the actual Jewish representative who came to Turkey. After all, a financially impoverished Jewish representative could have also said to Erdogan that Israel will pay money to resolve the conflict with Turkey. But no, Mr. Erdogan had to say that the richest Jew in the world came to negotiate. I be that if the interviewing newspaper were not a local one, he would not have used this terminology.

Thus I am only complaining about Mr. Erdogan using antisemitic stereotypes for internal consumption, I am not even claiming that Erdogan personally believes any of this antisemitic propaganda.

[Ibrahim]

Why wouldn't Turkey support Palestinians? Why would they back Israeli aggression towards Iran? What was this envoy supposed to accomplish given that the Israeli government isn't budging on either of these issues? Plus flotilla incident.



Very few nations in the world enthusiastically support Israel anymore. Typically only the US, Canada and a few others, based on voting at the UN.

As I said above, I fully understand Turkey's and Erdogan's political position.

I only pointed out the need of Mr Erdogan to insinuate things by associating Jews with money as a natural phenomenon. He did not even finish his sentence in Hurriyet newspapaper's interview, he only said "they sent me the richest Jew". Why not just say that he simply rejected the Jewish representative because Israel did not lift the blockade? Why use Jews to magnify his prestige? That was my only complaint.

It's an unpleasant phrase. That has nothing to do with the merits of the political mission.

It is true that Herzl offered financial support for Turkey in exchange for land in the Middle East, but so far you are not providing any proof that THIS time money was involved in the discussion.

Why do I have to offer "proof" of this, and what does it have to do with any of my comments?

[HAL9000]

Why wouldn't Turkey support Palestinians? Why would they back Israeli aggression towards Iran? What was this envoy supposed to accomplish given that the Israeli government isn't budging on either of these issues? Plus flotilla incident.



Very few nations in the world enthusiastically support Israel anymore. Typically only the US, Canada and a few others, based on voting at the UN.

As I said above, I fully understand Turkey's and Erdogan's political position.

I only pointed out the need of Mr Erdogan to insinuate things by associating Jews with money as a natural phenomenon. He did not even finish his sentence in Hurriyet newspapaper's interview, he only said "they sent me the richest Jew". Why not just say that he simply rejected the Jewish representative because Israel did not lift the blockade? Why use Jews to magnify his prestige? That was my only complaint.

It's an unpleasant phrase. That has nothing to do with the merits of the political mission.

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

Yes, this was an unpleasant phrase. And this was my whole point. I just wanted to display the nature of that unpleasant phrase to the forum. The unpleasant phrase was just within a context that shows how people are thinking. It is just the mentality.



I am not even saying that Erdogan is personally antisemitic, he is just profiting from existing antisemitism nurtured in the general culture. He is just using the existing image of Jews for internal political gain when he says that "the richest Jew in the world came to visit me." The financial status of the Israeli representative has nothing to do with Israel or Palestine or Iran. He is bringing in peripheral concepts.

[Jnalum Persicum]

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Neither Erdogan, nor Turkey, nor Ahmadinejatg nor Iran nor Arabs nor anybody in Middle East is anti-semite (defined as anti Jew of Hebrew tribe)

Proof of that are all those Jews, including yourself HAL9000, that lived for 100s and 1000s of year, in Iranian case 2600 yrs, in all Middle East from China to Tangier

How many years Hebrew tribe lived happily and prospered in Mesopotamia .. where was the Babylonia Talmud written ? ? where did the Hebrew tribe came to idea that there is only one G_D ? ? not in Israel but in Babylon when they were exposed to Zoroastrianism

So, that garbage of Turkish or Persian or Arab Anti-semitism does not stick .. ME people are so many tribes and races and and and .. they live happily together for so many years

on the other hand , HAL9000 .. the Europeans

The Europeans could not stomach their own citizens that had converted to Judaism

EUROPEANS are ANTI-JEW .. what you call anti-semite .. Europeans are also anti-Arab and anti-ME .. Europeans are, saying otherwise would be lie .. RACIST, no tolerant .. tolerance does not mean become like me or f*ck off

Zionist fooling themselves thinking they can force fed the world saying anti Israel is anti-semitism .. pure BullShit

As Ibrahim correctly says, now, pretty much everybody in the world , including Europeans, is against Israel .. only exception is America (though American Joe awakening) , and, Canada .. everybody else is pretty much against Israel


Natanyaho and Liberman and other thought Goys durian .. bringing all those criminals from Russia and settling them on Palestinians olive grooves and homes

World, including Iran, had goodwill for Jews after European episode .. but you guys wasted that goodwill thinking Goys idiots

Well, HAL9000, this not the first time European Jews "overstretched" it .. and that is the reason what happens to them last few 100 yrs

You guys needs some soul-searching .. you should ask yourself why things happen the way it happened, not once but many times (no it was not because you were not armed to defend yourself) .. just sweep it under the carpet will not do

I have said many times that European and Russian Jewish saga in WW2 has not been research and we do not know what happened, WHY IT HAPPENED, who were involved and and and .. but as soon as you ask question you viciously attacked by Zionist fearing the truth might come out


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[HAL9000]

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Neither Erdogan, nor Turkey, nor Ahmadinejatg nor Iran nor Arabs nor anybody in Middle East is anti-semite (defined as anti Jew of Hebrew tribe)

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I never said that Erdogan himself is an antisemite. I only said that based on his choice of words, he is just using antisemitic terminology for political gain at home, to make an impression on his voters. That statement to the Turkish newspaper was for internal consumption. He probably would not have used the same words about "the richest Jew in the world visiting him", if the interview were made by European newspapers. This was my only point, in this thread I did not criticize the political views of Erdogan towards Israel, I only mentioned his choice of words.

[Parodite]

Most non-Israeli Jews everywhere in the world are Zionist too, Azi (apart from small fringe groups like Naturei Karta). Because they are of the opinion that the state of Israel has the right to exist and that all Jews who want... should be able to live there safely and freely. There is a lot of discussion within the family (thanks for intruducing that term) on Israeli politics especially foreign policy, settlements in the Westbank and so on. That dodn't need to be any of your worries though. They are a smart folksy and even the biggest crackpot says interesting things.

To make it even worse and disappointing for you: most non-Jews are Zionist too, in that they think Israel now that it is there has the right to stay there "for all practical purposes". Ibrahim for instance maybe won't like it, but he supports Zionism.

So again you are dreaming up things that are not there, by and large.

[Jnalum Persicum]

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Tragedy is, HAL9000, neither Turkey nor Iran, are against a Jewish state .. neither Iran nor Turkey has said there should be no Jewish state in Palestine

All is said, is, things can not be forced on Palestinians

Notion you can bomb yourself in, is a dead-ender as Rumsfeld used to say


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[Parodite]

Tragedy is, HAL9000, neither Turkey nor Iran, are against a Jewish state .. neither Iran nor Turkey has said there should be no Jewish state in Palestine

Indeed, what a tragedy for YOU, Azari. Both Turkey and even your beloved Iran support...Zionism

[Zack Morris]

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Neither Erdogan, nor Turkey, nor Ahmadinejatg nor Iran nor Arabs nor anybody in Middle East is anti-semite (defined as anti Jew of Hebrew tribe)

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I never said that Erdogan himself is an antisemite. I only said that based on his choice of words, he is just using antisemitic terminology for political gain at home, to make an impression on his voters. That statement to the Turkish newspaper was for internal consumption. He probably would not have used the same words about "the richest Jew in the world visiting him", if the interview were made by European newspapers. This was my only point, in this thread I did not criticize the political views of Erdogan towards Israel, I only mentioned his choice of words.

Does this unfortunate choice of wording sound as bad in Turkish as it does in English? Is 'Jew' synonymous for 'Israeli' in Turkish?

[Jnalum Persicum]

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Most non-Israeli Jews everywhere in the world are Zionist too, Azi (apart from small fringe groups like Naturei Karta). Because they are of the opinion that the state of Israel has the right to exist and that all Jews who want... should be able to live there safely and freely. There is a lot of discussion within the family (thanks for intruducing that term) on Israeli politics especially foreign policy, settlements in the Westbank and so on. That dodn't need to be any of your worries though. They are a smart folksy and even the biggest crackpot says interesting things.

To make it even worse and disappointing for you: most non-Jews are Zionist too, in that they think Israel now that it is there has the right to stay there "for all practical purposes". Ibrahim for instance maybe won't like it, but he supports Zionism.

So again you are dreaming up things that are not there, by and large.

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This not about you or I

This about how Jews best would get to have a home country

All Germans were also for Hitler, 99.99% of them

And ? ?

look, Rhapsy

am beginning to suspect you intentionally focusing on individuals to distract from the big picture

As Ibrahim correctly said, now, pretty much, 3/4 of UN members do not side with Israel but with Iran .. If America flips, you done, sort of cliffhanger .. out of Europe and Russia, America last bastion, if & when that redneck pissed off, you done , unless you go back to our beloved Persia (again)

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Tragedy is, HAL9000, neither Turkey nor Iran, are against a Jewish state .. neither Iran nor Turkey has said there should be no Jewish state in Palestine

Indeed, what a tragedy for YOU, Azari. Both Turkey and even your beloved Iran support...Zionism

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Iranian and Turkish and ME vision for a Jewish state not same as Theodor Herzl's or Rothschild's

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Neither Erdogan, nor Turkey, nor Ahmadinejatg nor Iran nor Arabs nor anybody in Middle East is anti-semite (defined as anti Jew of Hebrew tribe)

.

I never said that Erdogan himself is an antisemite. I only said that based on his choice of words, he is just using antisemitic terminology for political gain at home, to make an impression on his voters. That statement to the Turkish newspaper was for internal consumption. He probably would not have used the same words about "the richest Jew in the world visiting him", if the interview were made by European newspapers. This was my only point, in this thread I did not criticize the political views of Erdogan towards Israel, I only mentioned his choice of words.

Does this unfortunate choice of wording sound as bad in Turkish as it does in English ? Is 'Jew' synonymous for 'Israeli' in Turkish ?

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Definitely and absolutely NOT

Iranians do not consider present Israel a Jewish state .. rather as a European Jewish, Ashkenazim, Zionist place

Very few Iranian Jews moved to Israel .. those who left, left to US .. Iranian Jews do not identify themselves with European Jews .. Iranians Jews are Iranians like anybody else) of Jewish faith .. they could as good be of any other faith .. Turkish Jews too, am sure, do not identify themselves with Israel


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[Parodite]

This not about you or I

This about how Jews best would get to have a home country

True.

1) They have a home country now in their own view and opinion; it is called Israel.
2) You are right: what you think about that is completely irrelevant.

You just can't stop your compulsive Jew-ad-diction. No way out for you.

[Ibrahim]

Most non-Israeli Jews everywhere in the world are Zionist too, Azi (apart from small fringe groups like Naturei Karta). Because they are of the opinion that the state of Israel has the right to exist and that all Jews who want... should be able to live there safely and freely. There is a lot of discussion within the family (thanks for intruducing that term) on Israeli politics especially foreign policy, settlements in the Westbank and so on. That dodn't need to be any of your worries though. They are a smart folksy and even the biggest crackpot says interesting things.

To make it even worse and disappointing for you: most non-Jews are Zionist too, in that they think Israel now that it is there has the right to stay there "for all practical purposes". Ibrahim for instance maybe won't like it, but he supports Zionism.

So again you are dreaming up things that are not there, by and large.

Saying that, like it or not, Israel is there now and there's nothing else to do but deal with it is not "supporting Zionism." You are not using the phrase "Zionism" in the political and religious sense that Jews who initially founded, or presently seek to expand the state of Israel do.

It's a bit like saying somebody is a "Bosnian nationalists" just because they don't think Serbs should be allowed to plow them into mass graves.

[Parodite]

Most non-Israeli Jews everywhere in the world are Zionist too, Azi (apart from small fringe groups like Naturei Karta). Because they are of the opinion that the state of Israel has the right to exist and that all Jews who want... should be able to live there safely and freely. There is a lot of discussion within the family (thanks for intruducing that term) on Israeli politics especially foreign policy, settlements in the Westbank and so on. That dodn't need to be any of your worries though. They are a smart folksy and even the biggest crackpot says interesting things.

To make it even worse and disappointing for you: most non-Jews are Zionist too, in that they think Israel now that it is there has the right to stay there "for all practical purposes". Ibrahim for instance maybe won't like it, but he supports Zionism.

So again you are dreaming up things that are not there, by and large.

Saying that, like it or not, Israel is there now and there's nothing else to do but deal with it is not "supporting Zionism." You are not using the phrase "Zionism" in the political and religious sense that Jews who initially founded, or presently seek to expand the state of Israel do.

It's a bit like saying somebody is a "Bosnian nationalists" just because they don't think Serbs should be allowed to plow them into mass graves.

Good reminder there are more types and brands of "Zionism". In this particular response to Azari I use his version of "Zionism" that he argues against all the time: Jews who themselves claimed territory for a Jewish nation state without asking permission from "the true landlord of the family" first. So that can't be anything else but the state of Israel as it exists now or in any format, smaller or bigger... that makes no difference.

[HAL9000]

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Neither Erdogan, nor Turkey, nor Ahmadinejatg nor Iran nor Arabs nor anybody in Middle East is anti-semite (defined as anti Jew of Hebrew tribe)

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I never said that Erdogan himself is an antisemite. I only said that based on his choice of words, he is just using antisemitic terminology for political gain at home, to make an impression on his voters. That statement to the Turkish newspaper was for internal consumption. He probably would not have used the same words about "the richest Jew in the world visiting him", if the interview were made by European newspapers. This was my only point, in this thread I did not criticize the political views of Erdogan towards Israel, I only mentioned his choice of words.

Does this unfortunate choice of wording sound as bad in Turkish as it does in English? Is 'Jew' synonymous for 'Israeli' in Turkish?

No. "Jew" is NOT synonymous with "Israeli" in Turkish. I was born in Turkey and I speak Turkish. The Turkish word for Jew is "Yahudi" (or "Musevi" if you want to emphasize only the religion without including the Hebrew tribe), and the Turkish word for Israel is "Israil" , as a state. All Turks know the difference between Jews and Israel (at least they used to until recently), many used to say that they are only against Zionism but not against Jews, and until recently until 15 years ago, Turkey was one of the least antisemitic countries in Europe. I would say that some Turkish Jews (my friends) who were already U.S. citizens, used to return back to Turkey to live there because they were happy to be in Turkey. In the Ottoman Empire the Jews were the only non-Muslim minority who identified with Turkish ethnicity after Turkey was invaded by England and France after World War I, and my late grandfather earned several Ottoman medals. (My family is of Sephardic Spanish Jewish ancestry who moved to Turkey 540 years ago to escape antisemitism.)

But recently, during the last 5 years, the Jewish population of Turkey declined from 23,000 to 17,000 because there has been massive agitation that started to blur the difference between Israel and Jews. Some of this agitation has been consciously propagated by deep pockets who have an interest in presenting Zionism as a Jewish plot to take over the world, going beyond the territorial dispute between Israel and Palestinian Arabs, presenting Zionism as a Jewish crime dedicated to threaten even Turkey physically, within Turkish borders as well, by gaining control of the south-eastern part of Turkey as greater Israel from the Nile to Euphrates. Nearly 500,000 copies of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion have been sold by faceless deep pockets that printed this forgery below cost to sell it at artificially low prices. I am in favor of freedom of speech, but slander is not being prosecuted when false incriminating evidence is being consciously propagated. But on the plus side, as a reaction to this propaganda, some decent Turkish Muslim journalists wrote articles warning that the anti-Semitic agitation in Turkey has reached levels comparable to Germany during the 1930s, and that this propaganda and agitation is not good for Turkey.

In any case, the Jewish representative who allegedly came to Turkey to talk to Erdogan is not Israeli, I believe that he is American, but even if he were Israeli, once again, what would be the point of the Prime Minister Erdogan saying "The richest Israeli came to talk to me" instead of saying "the richest Jew came to talk to me"? Once again it would be like associating all Israelis with money. (Actually most Israelis are very poor.)

[Ibrahim]

Attitudes towards Israel are worsening all over the world, and as racism and bigotry in many forms have become increasingly fashionable it only stands to reason that anti-Jewish sentiment and anti-Semitism would also become fashionable at the same time, as all forms of discrimination are essentially the same pathology. Consider: Arabs are one of the most reviled groups in the world post-9/11, and Jews have always been targets for unprovoked discrimination. Seeing that both groups are technically Semites, we are probably living in the most anti-Semitic period in history since 1945.

But bigotry and prejudice aside, is there some reason that Turks should have a good attitude towards Israel as a country? And, as relations decay, is there some reason this attitude wouldn't be reciprocal? Turkey was a supporter of Israel, for various reasons both selfish and altruistic, for decades, but recently that relationship has soured. The Spenglerian excuse of "Turkey is going Islamist" doesn't wash with anybody who knows anything about anything, so we must look for more practical explanations.

[HAL9000]

Attitudes towards Israel are worsening all over the world, and as racism and bigotry in many forms have become increasingly fashionable it only stands to reason that anti-Jewish sentiment and anti-Semitism would also become fashionable at the same time, as all forms of discrimination are essentially the same pathology. Consider: Arabs are one of the most reviled groups in the world post-9/11, and Jews have always been targets for unprovoked discrimination. Seeing that both groups are technically Semites, we are probably living in the most anti-Semitic period in history since 1945.

But bigotry and prejudice aside, is there some reason that Turks should have a good attitude towards Israel as a country? And, as relations decay, is there some reason this attitude wouldn't be reciprocal? Turkey was a supporter of Israel, for various reasons both selfish and altruistic, for decades, but recently that relationship has soured. The Spenglerian excuse of "Turkey is going Islamist" doesn't wash with anybody who knows anything about anything, so we must look for more practical explanations.

Actually, despite the destruction of the World Trade Center in September 2001, the discrimination against Muslims in Canada and the United States has increased a lot less than the corresponding increase in the anti-Jewish prejudice in Turkey. Turkey used to be the most progressive Muslim country before the dissolution of the Soviet Union. How would you feel if 25 % of the Canadian Turkish immigrant families who were actually born in Canada feel necessary to move to Turkey after the 9/11 event in 2001 due to discrimination against Muslims? 6,000 Turkish Jews out of 23,000 left Turkey during the last 5 years. You would be forced to learn Turkish to move from Canada to Turkey after so many years of growing up with English and French as your first languages. This is what happened to those 6,000 Turkish Jews who were forced to learn other languages during the last 5 years. Most Turkish Jews have not even visited Israel as a tourist, so don't even think of involving Israel in the discussion of Turkish Jews.

In contrast, the United States elected a president who has a Muslim father despite the fact that the US is at war against several Muslim countries. But recently, in Turkey, various high profile people have made lists of Turks who are descendants of Ottoman Jews who converted to Islam after 1690. Many university professors in Turkey are terrified to see that their names are on the list, just because they might have 1 % Jewish blood after so many years of intermarriage after the conversion of their ancestors from Judaism to Islam. Anyone who has an ancestor who converted from Judaism to Islam more than 300 years ago (. i.e. "Donme" =converted Jew), is also labeled a Donme. Hundreds of thousands of Turks who might have just one percent of Jewish blood are terrorized by this witch hunt, even though only 200 Jewish families converted to Islam as a result of the famous incident after 1690 in the Ottoman Empire.

This is in contrast with the fact that after the Asian Turkic republics gained their independence from the Soviet empire, it became apparent that in Asian Turkic Muslim countries like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, etc, Jews are considered brothers and they are highly esteemed despite the wars in the Middle East. It is astounding that the Jews of Azerbaijan who live in Israel, are so nostalgic that they implore the Azeri representatives who visit Israel, to lecture in Turkish instead of English when they are in Israel, to remember the good old days. Even the Russian satellite country Chechnya, their Mountain Jews are considered first Turkish and then Jewish.

One problem is the recent Germanization of Islam in Turkey and many Middle Eastern Muslim countries. The northern Asian Turkic republics are perhaps not so Middle Eastern due to geography. After World War II, for the first time in Islamic history, Judaism slowly became partially identified as a race in addition to religious belief in many Islamic countries. Previously Islamic thinking did not incorporate racial anti-Semitism. Deep pockets in Turkey are propagating new ideas that Zionism is not just the existence of Israel at the expense of many Palestinian Arabs, but the Jewish conspiracy to physically invade even parts of Turkish territory in Anatolia, as part of the secret Jewish plan to take over and enslave the world. I will later write a different thread to provide some examples about this kind of agitation and propaganda.

[Jnalum Persicum]

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HAL9000 ,

Present Israel, "present form" of Zionism, is the worst thing that happened to Judaism, to Hebrew tribe, even to European and Russian Jews

That whole thing started less than 150 yrs ago .. people who lived last 2500 yrs in Middle east in harmony, an integral part of, distinct, prosperous element of ME society and civilization .. are now not liked and considered western agents fighting ME people, civilization and culture

Israel & Zionist destroyed 1000s of yrs of good relation between Jews and "Morgenland"

IMVHO, that was a treason to non European Jews, to Hebrew tribe

Middle Eastern Jews were accepted as a member of ME people .. Europe (and Russia) rejected their people who had converted to Judaism

Interesting to research why ?

Why Jews were accepted in ME but rejected in Europe (synonymous with West) ? ?

IMVVHO, reason was, that, TALMUD-mindset is familiar (and accepted) in ME, but, not in European culture and civilization.

That is why David Goldman says Jewish school (teaching Talmud) heart of Judaism survival .. new born Circumcised (stamped), Jewish school does Talmud indoctrination .. well .. reminds me of Pakistani Madrassa .. result is, you have those weirdos called Settlers claiming (their) G_D promised them somebody else's home.

Said B4, the biggest victims of Zionism and Israel will be the Middle Eastern Jews, the Hebrew tribe

but

That is not what Middle Eastern people .. and IRAN .. want

ME people and Iran and Turkey want to accommodate somehow the Jews (homeland), have a fair, just and moral settlement with indigini, and, the new entity a positive member of the NEW Middle East, taking ME interest as it's own.

HAL9000, once you mentioned, ME Jews are now majority in Israel .. well .. if so, it is in their vital interest to vote leaders that lead things to that direction, otherwise, when things go bad, European Jews will leave and you guys will be holding the bag

European and Russian Jews interest is not same as interest of Middle Eastern Jews

Lieberman and Natanyaho interest not same as Rhubarb Baghdadi or Rhubarb Turk affandi


.

[Enki]

Why did Netanyahu choose to emphasize jews and money by sending a private sector billionaire to do the negotiations?

[HAL9000]

Why did Netanyahu choose to emphasize jews and money by sending a private sector billionaire to do the negotiations?

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]


Excellent point. Duly noted.
Maybe Netanyahu should have sent an impoverished Christian instead of a rich Jew. This way neither money nor Jews would be emphasized.

[Enki]

Why did Netanyahu choose to emphasize jews and money by sending a private sector billionaire to do the negotiations?

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]


Excellent point. Duly noted.
Maybe Netanyahu should have sent an impoverished Christian instead of a rich Jew. This way neither money nor Jews would be emphasized.

Or perhaps a member of the government.

[Parodite]

Why did Netanyahu choose to emphasize jews and money by sending a private sector billionaire to do the negotiations?

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]


Excellent point. Duly noted.
Maybe Netanyahu should have sent an impoverished Christian instead of a rich Jew. This way neither money nor Jews would be emphasized.

Or perhaps a member of the government.

I agree. It's about time those people start to talk. Netanyahu is a bit of an unimaginative dork.

[Azrael]

Why did Netanyahu choose to emphasize jews and money by sending a private sector billionaire to do the negotiations?

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]


Excellent point. Duly noted.
Maybe Netanyahu should have sent an impoverished Christian instead of a rich Jew. This way neither money nor Jews would be emphasized.

Or perhaps a member of the government.

I agree. It's about time those people start to talk. Netanyahu is a bit of an unimaginative dork.

Perhaps Bibi wasn't serious. He only wanted to look like he was interested in dialogue.

He probably would have sent someone else if he really was interested in dialogue.