Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Ibrahim
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
Aside from his statement being silly on its own merits, you're buying into Milo's ideology too much by even arguing it on these terms, which are really only about wealth. "We're richer, there fore better." It's the default bragging point because there is nothing else to brag about.


Nor is his interjection even on-topic or a coherent response to anything anybody said (that I saw at any rate).
Ibrahim
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

Typhoon wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
If you venture to Turkey, don't talk to the Orthodox Patriarch . . ;)
Is he that lousy a tour guide?
His main objection is that the Orthodox seminary in Istanbul's Fener district (the one he himself attended) has been closed for some years now as part of a law that shuttered all private religious schools in order to close several noted "Islamist" institutions.

Overall treatment of the Orthodox community in Istanbul is very good. They even have their own soccer team, so any desire for interfaith street fighting is channeled into the traditional European passtime of hooliganism.

Maintenance of ancient Christian historical and archeological sites in Turkey, even now-disused ones, is among the best in the world.
Milo
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Milo »

Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
Neither one is a Greece, let alone a Denmark.
I sense a little 'soft bigotry'...
Ibrahim
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

Milo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
Neither one is a Greece, let alone a Denmark.
Ever been to any of those countries? Not too interested in the view from mom's basement by way of the webforum on an Anders Breivik fanpage.


Oh, and for anyone following this, let me assure you that Istanbul and Singapore (not Malaysia, but close) are much more interesting than Copenhagen.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
Aside from his statement being silly on its own merits, you're buying into Milo's ideology too much by even arguing it on these terms, which are really only about wealth. "We're richer, there fore better." It's the default bragging point because there is nothing else to brag about.


Nor is his interjection even on-topic or a coherent response to anything anybody said (that I saw at any rate).
And yet it is entirely true.

Do they have gay marriage in Turkey and Malaysia or do they hate gays like the US Republicans and Black Democrats.
Censorship isn't necessary
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May be true Christian/Muslim,BUT is it true Muslim/Christian

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
If you venture to Turkey, don't talk to the Orthodox Patriarch . . ;)
Is he that lousy a tour guide?
His main objection is that the Orthodox seminary in Istanbul's Fener district (the one he himself attended) has been closed for some years now as part of a law that shuttered all private religious schools in order to close several noted "Islamist" institutions.

Overall treatment of the Orthodox community in Istanbul is very good. They even have their own soccer team, so any desire for interfaith street fighting is channeled into the traditional European passtime of hooliganism.

Maintenance of ancient Christian historical and archeological sites in Turkey, even now-disused ones, is among the best in the world.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.......
so any desire for interfaith street fighting is channeled into the traditional European passtime of hooliganism.
That may be true Christian/Muslim...BUT is it true Muslim/Christian??..........

Jump to: navigation, search
Father Andrea Santoro (7 September 1945 in Priverno, Italy – 5 February 2006 in Trabzon, Turkey) was a Roman Catholic priest in Turkey, murdered in the Santa Maria Church in Trabzon where he served as a member of the Catholic Church's Fidei donum missionary program.

On 5 February 2006 he was shot dead from behind while kneeling in prayer in the church. A witness heard the perpetrator shouting "Allahu Akbar".[1][2] Oğuzhan Akdin, a 16-year-old high school student, was arrested two days after the shooting, carrying a 9mm pistol. An investigation by the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations on stolen weaponry in Iraq revealed that the gun was of the same type used in the supposedly Islamist attack on the Turkish Council of State in 2006.[3]

The student told police he had been influenced by the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy.[4] The murder was preceded by massive anti-Christian propaganda in the Turkish popular press.[5] In the three months before his murder, Father Santoro's telephone had been tapped by the Turkish police in Trabzon.[6
Could be worse........ This is fairly good unless he gets paroled out early like happens here....... BUT LWOP would have been MUCH Better......
Let him grow old and gray infirm and leave in a coffin.......
On 10 October 2006, the accused Oğuzhan Akdin was sentenced to 18 years, 10 months, and 20 days in prison for "premeditated murder" by a Juvenile court in Trabzon.[7]
But this is not..........
neither the killer nor his mother showed any remorse during the trial. She even compared her son to Mehmet Ali Ağca, who tried to assassinate Pope John Paul II in 1981, and said that his deed "was committed in the name of Allah and was a gift to the state and the nation".[8]

As the murderer of Armenian-Turkish journalist Hrant Dink also came from Trabzon and also under 18 years of age, Turkish police are investigating possible connections between the slayings of Santoro and Dink.[9]
And neither is this.........
Hrant Dink (Armenian: Հրանդ Տինք (Western variant) or Հրանտ Դինք (Eastern variant), pronounced [həˈɾɑnt diŋkʰ]) (September 15, 1954 – January 19, 2007) was a Turkish citizen of Armenian descent[1] editor, journalist and columnist.

As editor-in-chief of the bilingual Turkish-Armenian newspaper Agos (Ակօս), Dink was a prominent member of the Armenian minority in Turkey. Dink was best known for advocating Turkish-Armenian reconciliation and human and minority rights in Turkey; he was often critical of both Turkey's denial of the Armenian Genocide, and of the Armenian diaspora's campaign for its international recognition.[2][3] Dink was prosecuted three times for denigrating Turkishness, while receiving numerous death threats from Turkish nationalists.[2][4][5][6]

Hrant Dink was assassinated in Istanbul in January 2007, by Ogün Samast, a 17-year old Turkish nationalist. This was shortly after the premiere of the genocide documentary Screamers, in which he is interviewed about Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide of 1915 and the case against him under article 301. While Samast has since been taken into custody, photographs of the assassin flanked by smiling Turkish police and gendarmerie, posing with the killer side by side in front of the Turkish flag, have since surfaced. [7][8]
But this is good.......
The photos created a scandal in Turkey, prompting a spate of investigations and the removal from office of those involved.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Typhoon »

Ibrahim wrote:
Milo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
Neither one is a Greece, let alone a Denmark.
Ever been to any of those countries? Not too interested in the view from mom's basement by way of the webforum on an Anders Breivik fanpage.

Oh, and for anyone following this, let me assure you that Istanbul and Singapore (not Malaysia, but close) are much more interesting than Copenhagen.
Denmark and especially Greece would very much like to be experiencing the type of economic growth that is occurring in Malaysia and notably Turkey.

Bloomberg |Greece Seeks Turkish Buyers for Assets in Economic Reversal
Greek officials met with investors from Turkey to showcase a sale of state-run assets, reflecting a reversal in the fortunes of the Mediterranean rivals as Greece faces possible financial collapse and Turkish growth rivals China’s.
The ascent of Turkey, a nation of 74 million straddling Europe and Asia, contrasts with the decline of Greece, its centuries-old adversary. The Turkish economy, which expanded 9.6 percent in the first nine months of 2011, is forecast to grow more this year than anywhere in the European Union, while the Greek economy is expected to shrink 4.8 percent. National Bank of Greece SA (NBG) has earned more at its Istanbul-based unit Finansbank AS (FINBN) since the financial crisis erupted in 2008 than it did in Greece.
The greatest irony of the internet is that never before has so much information been accessible so easily to so many,
yet most people can't be bothered to do the most elementary research and instead spend their time posting their preconceived prejudices.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Mr. Perfect »

If I had to choose I think I'd live in Greece over Turkey.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Parodite
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Parodite »

Mr. Perfect wrote:If I had to choose I think I'd live in Greece over Turkey.
Are you sure?

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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Marcus »

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episo ... state/587/
Steven Cook
Council on Foreign Relations

Turkey is a secular state, but religion and state are not separate as in the United States. While Islam is not the official religion of the state (though 99.8 percent of Turks are Muslims), and Turks of all religions (there are small Jewish and Christian communities in Turkey) are free to worship as they please, the Turkish state is heavily involved in religion through the Chairmanship of Religious Affairs. This organization serves, in part, to ensure that religion, particularly Islam, remains within the realm of personal conscience and is not used for political purposes. Conservative Muslims have historically chafed under Turkish state secularism, which, for example, prevents women from wearing the hijab in a variety of settings including publicly supported universities and parliament. While critics argue that the headscarf ban violates freedom of expression, the European Court of Human Rights has upheld this practice.

One of the outstanding religious issues in Turkey is the status of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople, which for political reasons the Turks refer to as the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Fener (after the district in Istanbul where it is located). The Turkish government is accused of expropriating church property as well as obstructing the repair of churches, and in 1971 closed the Orthodox Halki Seminary on Heybeliada Island in the Sea of Marmara. Clearly, these issues will have to be addressed effectively before Turkey joins the European Union. Just as Turkey’s conservative Muslim community has recognized that E.U. membership is the best way to ensure that they can practice their religion as they please in the safest possible environment, the promise and incentive of joining Europe provides the best possible chance to resolve the issue of the Greek Orthodox Church.
Dr. John Brademas
President Emeritus of New York University

Another obstacle to Turkish membership in the European Union: the systematic efforts on the part of Turkey to undermine the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (Istanbul), the seat of the religious leadership of Orthodox Christianity. Turkey has refused to comply with the Copenhagen criteria for joining the E.U. by denying the Patriarchate appropriate international recognition and the right of ecclesiastic succession. Nor have Turkish authorities permitted the reopening of the Orthodox School of Theology on Halki.

The Turkish government has ruled that only Turkish citizens can be clergy; consequently, the Orthodox community in Turkey has been reduced to only 2,000. When, 35 years ago, Turkey closed the Halki Seminary, it thereby denied the Patriarchate the capacity to train clergy and threatened its continued existence. In fact, since 2002, the Turkish government has confiscated 75 percent of the property of the Patriarchate.

Turkey has respected neither the human rights nor the property rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Marcus wrote:http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episo ... state/587/
Steven Cook
Council on Foreign Relations

Turkey is a secular state, but religion and state are not separate as in the United States. While Islam is not the official religion of the state (though 99.8 percent of Turks are Muslims), and Turks of all religions (there are small Jewish and Christian communities in Turkey) are free to worship as they please, the Turkish state is heavily involved in religion through the Chairmanship of Religious Affairs. This organization serves, in part, to ensure that religion, particularly Islam, remains within the realm of personal conscience and is not used for political purposes. Conservative Muslims have historically chafed under Turkish state secularism, which, for example, prevents women from wearing the hijab in a variety of settings including publicly supported universities and parliament. While critics argue that the headscarf ban violates freedom of expression, the European Court of Human Rights has upheld this practice.

...
http://hijabitopia.blogspot.com/2011/01 ... urkey.html
Today I would like to share with you a short film that was filmed by Zumrut Cavusoglu. Zumrut is a graduate of Bogazici University. She studied Sociology & British Literature, with a minor in Film Studies.

While at University, Zumrut happened to become friends with a girl who was wearing hijab. After meeting her, she became aware of the affects of the hijab ban on individuals. She heard about Cennet Dogan, a Turkish young girl who was prevented from attending school in Belgium, due to her hijab. To protest the ban, Cennet shaved her head and went to school!

Zumrut was very touched by Cennet's story. Her story, along with her new friend Merve, a student at Bogazici University, led her to an idea to do a short film about the hijab ban.

With the help of a few contacts in the media sector, Zumrut was able to write and direct a very professional short film.

Her film WET (ISLAK) is now competing for the Women's Voices Film Award.

I thank Zumrut for trying to make a difference in the world and fighting for women's rights to an education, no matter who they are or what they wear.

A few notes about the movie:

1.) The movie was filmed in Turkish, with English subtitles.

2.) The 3 girls in the movie are the same 3 girls whom Zumrut was friends with while at University.

3.) The main character Merve, is the same youngirl who had to fight for her right to wear hijab. She agreed to do the movie under the condition that she wears a wig. So please keep in mind, that she does not show her hair, or take off her hijab. She is wearing a wig!

4.) The young man in the movie is Merve's husband!

5.) At the end of the movie, Merve's protest is fiction.


“Islak” is the story of a young woman in Turkey, who is forbidden to enter the University because she wears a headscarf. The film questions the concept of “openness” and “closedness” and asks what is really is “closed/covered”, Merve or the gates that are closed in her face?

Islak from Women's Voices Now on Vimeo.

The main reason I wanted to post this movie is to share with my readers what girls do to fight for hijab. You already know my take on hijab, if you're new to the blog, you can read it here CLICK

The fact of the matter is, those of us who live in the US really have the most freedom. Women all over the world, die (literally) for their right to wear hijab! If you are debating wearing it because someone might make a tiny remark about your outfit, or that your friends will no longer be your friends, you really need to think again!
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Ibrahim
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

Typhoon wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Milo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
Neither one is a Greece, let alone a Denmark.
Ever been to any of those countries? Not too interested in the view from mom's basement by way of the webforum on an Anders Breivik fanpage.

Oh, and for anyone following this, let me assure you that Istanbul and Singapore (not Malaysia, but close) are much more interesting than Copenhagen.
Denmark and especially Greece would very much like to be experiencing the type of economic growth that is occurring in Malaysia and notably Turkey.

Bloomberg |Greece Seeks Turkish Buyers for Assets in Economic Reversal
Greek officials met with investors from Turkey to showcase a sale of state-run assets, reflecting a reversal in the fortunes of the Mediterranean rivals as Greece faces possible financial collapse and Turkish growth rivals China’s.
The ascent of Turkey, a nation of 74 million straddling Europe and Asia, contrasts with the decline of Greece, its centuries-old adversary. The Turkish economy, which expanded 9.6 percent in the first nine months of 2011, is forecast to grow more this year than anywhere in the European Union, while the Greek economy is expected to shrink 4.8 percent. National Bank of Greece SA (NBG) has earned more at its Istanbul-based unit Finansbank AS (FINBN) since the financial crisis erupted in 2008 than it did in Greece.
The greatest irony of the internet is that never before has so much information been accessible so easily to so many,
yet most people can't be bothered to do the most elementary research and instead spend their time posting their preconceived prejudices.

To me it's not even about the economic data, its about determining what the criteria for ranking countries really is. You can compare Turkish and Greek numbers and see that Turkey is ahead, but does that make it a better place to live? It is, but how would Milo know that? Moreover, prejudices like the alleged closed-mindedness of Muslims would motivate e.g. Milo to prefer Greece, even though the average Greek holds exactly the same prejudices and traditional/meat-head attitudes as the stereotypical Muslim.

Or even if you look at a country like the US, which has so many of the numbers in its favor, and is axiomatically a great place to live, %90 is a complete dump and a cultural wasteland. Is it inherently "better" to be fat and live next to a strip mall in Missouri than to live in Africa? Most people would immediately say "yes!" without even knowing anything about Africa or asking me to pick an actual country in Africa. The economic argument just seems so crass.


But the general point that people have no idea what they are talking about is sound.
Ibrahim
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

Maybe a bunch of this needs to move over to a Turkey thread? We're well off topic though this material is also worth discussing (mostly).
Marcus wrote:http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episo ... state/587/
Steven Cook
Council on Foreign Relations

Turkey is a secular state, but religion and state are not separate as in the United States. While Islam is not the official religion of the state (though 99.8 percent of Turks are Muslims), and Turks of all religions (there are small Jewish and Christian communities in Turkey) are free to worship as they please, the Turkish state is heavily involved in religion through the Chairmanship of Religious Affairs. This organization serves, in part, to ensure that religion, particularly Islam, remains within the realm of personal conscience and is not used for political purposes. Conservative Muslims have historically chafed under Turkish state secularism, which, for example, prevents women from wearing the hijab in a variety of settings including publicly supported universities and parliament. While critics argue that the headscarf ban violates freedom of expression, the European Court of Human Rights has upheld this practice.

One of the outstanding religious issues in Turkey is the status of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople, which for political reasons the Turks refer to as the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Fener (after the district in Istanbul where it is located). The Turkish government is accused of expropriating church property as well as obstructing the repair of churches, and in 1971 closed the Orthodox Halki Seminary on Heybeliada Island in the Sea of Marmara. Clearly, these issues will have to be addressed effectively before Turkey joins the European Union. Just as Turkey’s conservative Muslim community has recognized that E.U. membership is the best way to ensure that they can practice their religion as they please in the safest possible environment, the promise and incentive of joining Europe provides the best possible chance to resolve the issue of the Greek Orthodox Church.
Dr. John Brademas
President Emeritus of New York University

Another obstacle to Turkish membership in the European Union: the systematic efforts on the part of Turkey to undermine the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (Istanbul), the seat of the religious leadership of Orthodox Christianity. Turkey has refused to comply with the Copenhagen criteria for joining the E.U. by denying the Patriarchate appropriate international recognition and the right of ecclesiastic succession. Nor have Turkish authorities permitted the reopening of the Orthodox School of Theology on Halki.

The Turkish government has ruled that only Turkish citizens can be clergy; consequently, the Orthodox community in Turkey has been reduced to only 2,000. When, 35 years ago, Turkey closed the Halki Seminary, it thereby denied the Patriarchate the capacity to train clergy and threatened its continued existence. In fact, since 2002, the Turkish government has confiscated 75 percent of the property of the Patriarchate.

Turkey has respected neither the human rights nor the property rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
This "confiscated property" consists largely of historical sites that are no longer actively used by Christians, but which are hugely important culturally or archaeologically. The government "confiscated" it in that it placed it under the control of the Turkish ministry responsible for antiquities and cultural sites. This is common the world over, its not like the government seized a 2000-year-old Christian church and bulldozed it so that some dictator's son could build a swimming pool and torture facility. Consider how many historical sites e.g. the US government owns. Arlington is built on confiscated land. This is true everywhere.

As for closing Halki Seminary, that is correct but the Turkish government didn't exclusively close the seminary for punitive reasons, it closed all privately controlled religious training centers at the same time, notably extremist madrassas. Obviously there was pressure from some of the conservative religious community not to exempt a Christian institution while dozens of Islamic ones were closed, and while I do agree that the Orthodox seminary should be reopened (with some compromise of government oversight is needs be), its not as though the Turkish government decided one day to genuflect with the Orthodox community out of spite or religious intolerance.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Milo »

As the women says in HB's post above, and as this guy says below, what umma?
lMNu6Rs2orI
And this is where Islam seems to fail over and over, not in how they treat non-muslims but in how they treat each other.
IOW, all these discussions about how Islam persecutes others raise good, and entirely true, points as to wrongs committed because of Islamic teachings but that's not what's really wrong with Islam.
What's wrong is Muslims treat each other terribly, consider that treatment normal and project that worldview when they deal with others.
Oh sure there's mandatory taxes for charity etc. but there's very little evidence of charitable INTENTION in the Islamic world. Or even common courtesy a lot of the time.
I don't see any of the Islamic reforms addressing this either.
Ibrahim
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

Milo wrote:As the women says in HB's post above, and as this guy says below, what umma?

(video Milo posted three times before)

And this is where Islam seems to fail over and over, not in how they treat non-muslims but in how they treat each other.
IOW, all these discussions about how Islam persecutes others raise good, and entirely true, points as to wrongs committed because of Islamic teachings but that's not what's really wrong with Islam.
What's wrong is Muslims treat each other terribly, consider that treatment normal and project that worldview when they deal with others.
Oh sure there's mandatory taxes for charity etc. but there's very little evidence of charitable INTENTION in the Islamic world. Or even common courtesy a lot of the time.
I don't see any of the Islamic reforms addressing this either.
The problem here, Milo, is that your propaganda is contradicting itself. The point the guy is making in this random video - translated by God-knows-who and posted by some anti-Muslim propaganda account that you've posted several times before - is that Muslims aren't united. Yet your own comments are still based on generalized statements about "Muslims" as a monolithic group. Not to mention the general hypocrisy of a Western white supremacist saying "look at how much Muslims kill one another" when European and American history is an endless catalog of self-destruction. But that is a too-obvious obvious flaw in your argument. Its your own intellectual confusion in mixing generalizations with evidence of specificity in your own propaganda that is amusing to me.


Your other comments are unsubstantiated nonsense as usual. Religious charity is abundant in the Islamic world. Indeed, the majority of social services in many countries are famously provided as charity by religious organizations. There is less in the way of state-run social safety nets owing to much lower government revenue, but for many here that is a good thing. Note that this preponderance of charity also contradicts the thesis of the video you are posting. Even if, as you are probably desperate to believe, one assumes that this is all cynically provided to benefit organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood. Its still food and medicine provided free to the hungry and the sick.

As for courtesy, there is much more courtesy in the traditional Islamic world than in Western society. This is true of traditional societies generally, and the influence is still seen in Arabic, Turkish, and Persian society. I think anybody who has done any traveling will agree that this is true in general of Middle Eastern countries in particular.

So, as usual, you are commenting on things you are hearing second hand from propaganda websites. The world as seen from mom's basement.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Milo wrote:As the women says in HB's post above,
Actually, the not so obvious reason I posted that was right at the beginning.
Muslims living in non-Muslim countries are subjected to the same kind of prejudices, and worst, as the reverse.
Look at all those anti-hijab laws in what is supposed to be the bastion of human rights, and more specifically, women's human rights.
Laughable.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Ibrahim wrote: To me it's not even about the economic data, its about determining what the criteria for ranking countries really is. You can compare Turkish and Greek numbers and see that Turkey is ahead, but does that make it a better place to live? It is, but how would Milo know that? Moreover, prejudices like the alleged closed-mindedness of Muslims would motivate e.g. Milo to prefer Greece, even though the average Greek holds exactly the same prejudices and traditional/meat-head attitudes as the stereotypical Muslim.

Or even if you look at a country like the US, which has so many of the numbers in its favor, and is axiomatically a great place to live, %90 is a complete dump and a cultural wasteland. Is it inherently "better" to be fat and live next to a strip mall in Missouri than to live in Africa? Most people would immediately say "yes!" without even knowing anything about Africa or asking me to pick an actual country in Africa. The economic argument just seems so crass.


But the general point that people have no idea what they are talking about is sound.
Good point.
Last edited by Hans Bulvai on Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
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Amazing that People Move From Turkey to Next to a Dump

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Milo wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Milo wrote:Arguments as to who held the high ground in history remind me of some unemployed loser who brags about their aristocratic ancestry.
What counts is now and now there is not one Islamic society on earth that has civilizational bragging rights.
Ever been to Turkey or Malaysia?
Neither one is a Greece, let alone a Denmark.
Ever been to any of those countries? Not too interested in the view from mom's basement by way of the webforum on an Anders Breivik fanpage.

Oh, and for anyone following this, let me assure you that Istanbul and Singapore (not Malaysia, but close) are much more interesting than Copenhagen.
Denmark and especially Greece would very much like to be experiencing the type of economic growth that is occurring in Malaysia and notably Turkey.

Bloomberg |Greece Seeks Turkish Buyers for Assets in Economic Reversal
Greek officials met with investors from Turkey to showcase a sale of state-run assets, reflecting a reversal in the fortunes of the Mediterranean rivals as Greece faces possible financial collapse and Turkish growth rivals China’s.
The ascent of Turkey, a nation of 74 million straddling Europe and Asia, contrasts with the decline of Greece, its centuries-old adversary. The Turkish economy, which expanded 9.6 percent in the first nine months of 2011, is forecast to grow more this year than anywhere in the European Union, while the Greek economy is expected to shrink 4.8 percent. National Bank of Greece SA (NBG) has earned more at its Istanbul-based unit Finansbank AS (FINBN) since the financial crisis erupted in 2008 than it did in Greece.
The greatest irony of the internet is that never before has so much information been accessible so easily to so many,
yet most people can't be bothered to do the most elementary research and instead spend their time posting their preconceived prejudices.

To me it's not even about the economic data, its about determining what the criteria for ranking countries really is. You can compare Turkish and Greek numbers and see that Turkey is ahead, but does that make it a better place to live? It is, but how would Milo know that? Moreover, prejudices like the alleged closed-mindedness of Muslims would motivate e.g. Milo to prefer Greece, even though the average Greek holds exactly the same prejudices and traditional/meat-head attitudes as the stereotypical Muslim.

Or even if you look at a country like the US, which has so many of the numbers in its favor, and is axiomatically a great place to live, %90 is a complete dump and a cultural wasteland. Is it inherently "better" to be fat and live next to a strip mall in Missouri than to live in Africa? Most people would immediately say "yes!" without even knowing anything about Africa or asking me to pick an actual country in Africa. The economic argumen't just seems so crass.


But the general point that people have no idea what they are talking about is sound.
Thank you for your post, Ibrahim.
Or even if you look at a country like the US, which has so many of the numbers in its favor, and is axiomatically a great place to live, %90 is a complete dump and a cultural wasteland.
If 90% of America is a complete dump, then it is absolutely amazing that so many people from all over the world want to live here with more than a few dying trying to do so :( and that you have chosen to move from Turkey to live next to a dump ;) :lol:
But the general point that people have no idea what they are talking about is sound.
Perhaps....... Perhaps including People who like to Pontificate that 90% of America is "a complete dump" without providing evidence.......

And so that we don't get into a debate about what the meaning of "dump" is............
A landfill site (also known as tip, dump or rubbish dump and historically as a midden) is a site for the disposal of waste materials by burial and is the oldest form of waste treatment. Historically, landfills have been the most common methods of organized waste disposal and remain so in many places around the world. Some landfills are also used for waste management purposes, such as the temporary storage, consolidation and transfer, or processing of waste material (sorting, treatment, or recycling).

A landfill also may refer to ground that has been filled in with rocks instead of waste materials, so that it can be used for a specific purpose, such as for building houses. Unless they are stabilized, these areas may experience severe shaking or liquefaction of the ground in a large earthquake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landfill
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Typhoon »

50922066
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
TurkishJew

Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by TurkishJew »

Until recently, Greece was one of the most Antisemitic countries, while 15 years ago Turkish Jews who were U.S. citizens were actually returning to Turkey since they were very happy there.

Azerbaijan has less than 0 % anti-Semitism and this is despite the Islamic revival. In Azerbaijan Jews are considered brothers. Almost all of the Northern Asian Turkic nations are also similar. But the latter regions are significantly different from the Arab world.

There are also tremendous variations in the cultures of Islamic sects, most notably the Sufis who believe in esoteric concepts such as reincarnation, and at least in general they have more tolerant structures despite a few extremists who were Sufis.

But the situation of the Coptic Christians in Egypt is a good representative indicator that non-Muslims in most parts of the Arab world are not treated as equals, and this is not because of government policy, it is because of the culture of the country. (Egypt has a population of 80 million, and it is considered a cultural leader of the Arab world.)

It's a waste of time to use technical terms such as "Dhimmi", "Sharia", etc, the point is the general behavior of the people.

Thus the question of this thread is this: if the current demographic trends continue, as the emerging Islamic world becomes more dominant, what can be done to convince them to be tolerant towards those who are not Muslim.

Of course, as soon as Omar Sharif converted from Christianity to Islam, his career and social status improved dramatically. This option is always available as a last resort, but I worry that for the foreseeable future, the latter option is the only way non-Muslims in the Arab world can be given equality (after which they would no longer be non-Muslim anymore if they choose that solution.)
TurkishJew

Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by TurkishJew »

Until recently, Greece was one of the most Antisemitic countries, while 15 years ago Turkish Jews who were U.S. citizens were actually returning to Turkey since they were very happy there.

Azerbaijan has less than 0 % anti-Semitism and this is despite the Islamic revival. In Azerbaijan Jews are considered brothers. Almost all of the Northern Asian Turkic nations are also similar. But the latter regions are significantly different from the Arab world.

There are also tremendous variations in the cultures of Islamic sects, most notably the Sufis who believe in esoteric concepts such as reincarnation, and at least in general they have more tolerant structures despite a few extremists who were Sufis.

But the situation of the Coptic Christians in Egypt is a good representative indicator that non-Muslims in most parts of the Arab world are not treated as equals, and this is not because of government policy, it is because of the culture of the country. (Egypt has a population of 80 million, and it is considered a cultural leader of the Arab world.)

It's a waste of time to use technical terms such as "Dhimmi", "Sharia", etc, the point is the general behavior of the people.

Thus the question of this thread is this: if the current demographic trends continue, if the emerging Islamic world becomes more dominant, what can be done to convince them to be tolerant towards those who are not Muslim?

Of course, conversion to Christianity would guarantee equality in the Arab world. This option is always available as a last resort, but I worry that for the foreseeable future, the latter option is the only way non-Muslims in the Arab world can be given equality (after which they would no longer be non-Muslim anymore if they choose that solution.)
Jnalum Persicum

Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

TurkishJew wrote:.

Until recently, Greece was one of the most Antisemitic countries, while 15 years ago Turkish Jews who were U.S. citizens were actually returning to Turkey since they were very happy there.

Azerbaijan has less than 0 % anti-Semitism and this is despite the Islamic revival. In Azerbaijan Jews are considered brothers. Almost all of the Northern Asian Turkic nations are also similar. But the latter regions are significantly different from the Arab world.

.

:lol:


NYT Roger Cohen - What Iran’s Jews Say

.

Perhaps I have a bias toward facts over words, but I say the reality of Iranian civility toward Jews tells us more about Iran — its sophistication and culture — than all the inflammatory rhetoric.

That may be because I’m a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran.


.

In Middle east, nobody is Anti-Semitic (understood as anti Jewish)

but

Pretty much all population of ME is Anti Zionist .. because ME people are very justice conscience .. they object to the way European and Russian took over Palestine .. depopulating entire region similar to what Stalin did in Caucasus and Central Asia and Volga region

and

TurkishJew

" Shirvan & Arran " Iranians .. Shirvan & Arran , Armenians, Taalesh, Kurds and Azarbaijan same genetic stock, they Aryans



.
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Bumipatra Wealth ReDistribution vs. Emirs & Wealth Weasels..

Post by monster_gardener »

Typhoon wrote:50922066
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Typhoon.

Nice video.

And nice that AFAICT the Bumi ;) patra system has not yet made the economy go Bust :twisted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumiputera_%28Malaysia%29

Might even be a good idea....... Buy off the Muslims with wealth and they won't worry that they need to get strict and Salafi because Allah is punishing them for their sins.....
n the 1970s, the Malaysian government implemented policies which The Economist called "racially discriminatory" designed to favour bumiputras (including affirmative action in public education) to create opportunities, and to defuse inter-ethnic tensions following the extended violence against Chinese Malaysians in the 13 May Incident in 1969.[1] These policies have succeeded in creating a significant urban Malay middle class. They have been less effective in eradicating poverty among rural communities. Some analysts have noted a backlash of resentment from excluded groups, in particular the sizeable Chinese and Indian Malaysian minorities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumiputera_%28Malaysia%29

Perhaps Bumi ;) Patra is preventing Malay Muslims from Becoming Bums who go Boom :twisted: :lol: on the non Muslims among them......

Somewhat discriminatory and not ideal.......... But perhaps practical.....

Wonder if it could be implemented elsewhere......

Perhaps if wealth was more equally distributed in the Muslim World instead of being gobbled up by Dictators, Kinks ;) oops I mean Kings, Ermines ;) oops I mean Emirs and other Wealth Weasels ;) :twisted:

At least as long as the wealth lasts....... :shock:

But how likely is that given that even we Uz seem to be going the other way........ :(

But nevertheless it is telling that AFAIK no Fatwa has been issued against Clammy Clams Casino despite the blasphemous "I am G_d" declaration with purported sun course reversal proof at the end of the video.....
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Typhoon »

Even Mad Hatter Mahathir is now on record as saying that the discriminatory bumiputra laws were a mistake [adopted back in the day when social engineering was all the rage].

He's also on record as acknowledging that if it were not for the Chinese [and Indians], the rest of the country would still be subsistence fishing in kampongs.

I think that it was a mistake to include the once independent state of Sarawak and Sabah on the island of Borneo as part of Malaysia. Same for Penang.

Malaysia certainly has it's share of problems, including massive Singapore envy. However, it is advancing quite well economically.

As is the case with most nations on the planet, it's not all black and white, but many shades of grey.

Malaysia is worth a visit - I can recommend it to you.

Another interesting development in SE Asia is the rapid changes taking place in Indonesia - apparently for the better.

In general, SE Asia is the new growth region [along with parts of Africa].
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
TurkishJew

Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by TurkishJew »

Jnalum Persicum wrote: Pretty much all population of ME is Anti Zionist .. because ME people are very justice conscience .. they object to the way European and Russian took over Palestine .. depopulating entire region similar to what Stalin did in Caucasus and Central Asia and Volga region




.
It is important to note that even if the European and Mizrahi Jews leave Israel, there would still be the ancient Ottoman Jews of Palestine who were residing there for hundreds of years. The latter group would be close to 100,000 people, still a tiny minority if we compare to the 5,000,000 Palestinian Muslims, but still significant. Now the issue is this: what rights do these ancient Jewish Palestinians have? If equality is not given to the latter group, do they have the right to start a revolt to get equality? The current view of Palestinians (not all of them, but the overwhelming majority) is that the Jewish Palestinians will not be given equality if there is a new Palestinian country replacing Israel. Historically, minorities who were not given equality, often started a revolt. Such revolts were usually crushed, but once in a while they succeeded. So it is not so clear.

Another aspect of Zionism is that the original Zionists did not insist on building Israel in the Middle East. They even considered very remote places in the world. If fact, with the new invention of molten salt reactors, it will be possible to build a new Jewish country in Antarctica. In fact, within 100 years it will be possible to build artificial islands in the ocean by moving rocks from one place to another from the bottom of the sea. This would still be Zionism.
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