Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

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monster_gardener
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Homelands far & farther... Dentists & IrreDentists..

Post by monster_gardener »

TurkishJew wrote:
Jnalum Persicum wrote: Pretty much all population of ME is Anti Zionist .. because ME people are very justice conscience .. they object to the way European and Russian took over Palestine .. depopulating entire region similar to what Stalin did in Caucasus and Central Asia and Volga region




.
It is important to note that even if the European and Mizrahi Jews leave Israel, there would still be the ancient Ottoman Jews of Palestine who were residing there for hundreds of years. The latter group would be close to 100,000 people, still a tiny minority if we compare to the 5,000,000 Palestinian Muslims, but still significant. Now the issue is this: what rights do these ancient Jewish Palestinians have? If equality is not given to the latter group, do they have the right to start a revolt to get equality? The current view of Palestinians (not all of them, but the overwhelming majority) is that the Jewish Palestinians will not be given equality if there is a new Palestinian country replacing Israel. Historically, minorities who were not given equality, often started a revolt. Such revolts were usually crushed, but once in a while they succeeded. So it is not so clear.

Another aspect of Zionism is that the original Zionists did not insist on building Israel in the Middle East. They even considered very remote places in the world. If fact, with the new invention of molten salt reactors, it will be possible to build a new Jewish country in Antarctica. In fact, within 100 years it will be possible to build artificial islands in the ocean by moving rocks from one place to another from the bottom of the sea. This would still be Zionism.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Hal/Turkish Jew.
Another aspect of Zionism is that the original Zionists did not insist on building Israel in the Middle East.
Unfortunately AIUI some Zionists did....... Remembering one Jewish plan to have a Jewish Homeland in Australia that was derailed both by the Gentiles of Oz and Zionist Rabbis..... Likewise IIRC when Fallen Angel ;) :twisted: Rafael Trujillo tried to do something right for once in his life and offered a homeland to the Jews at the Evian Conference, Zionists were opposed......
The only country willing to accept a large number of Jews was the Dominican Republic, which offered to accept up to 100,000 refugees on generous terms.[7] In 1940 an agreement was signed and Rafael Trujillo donated 26,000 acres (110 km2) of his properties for settlements. The first settlers arrived in May 1940: only about 800 settlers came to Sosúa; most later moved on to the United States.[7] The Sosua Virtual museum is a living memorial to the settlers.

Christopher Sykes, a BBC correspondent, claims the attitude of Zionist organizations was one of "hostile indifference," since any positive outcome would reduce the numbers of people wishing to settle in Palestine.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vian_Conference

Problem seems to be that while many Muslims are fixated on conquering the world for Allah, some Jews are determined to have possession of that that dangerous little postage stamp of land that they believe G_d gave them that also is a choke point in the evil lands of Islam whose inhabitants are notorious IrreDentists....
They even considered very remote places in the world.
True......... Some did......... Argentina was also considered... And Uganda........

But Argentina was destined to be a homeland for Nazi refugees ;) :twisted: :lol:

While Uganda was fated to be ruled by a Muslim Madder than Most........ Idi VD :twisted: Imin.....

I think Oz might have been the best: Southern Hemisphere........

RG Argentina OK too...Perhaps the Jews could have prepared a "reception" party for Nazi Refugees :twisted:
Maybe given Mengele a root canal without anesthesia......

kzw1_2b-I7A

nG2vlX5xUP8


The Brits were Bozos in the Middle East and betrayed both Jews and Arabs/Palis/Muslims but better chance that the Brits would have allowed ships to reach Oz or RG whereas with Palestine/Israel they backstabbed the Jews when they needed a refuge most.....
If fact, with the new invention of molten salt reactors, it will be possible to build a new Jewish country in Antarctica.


I too have considered Antarctica as a possible Jewish Homeland: Mars with oxygen and more water...... Worth a try...... Can do it without Orion but IMVHO too many fixated on ancestral Israel.... Jews, Christians, Muslims....... All are fixated on Jerusalem.... Long term problem is that is still on Earth..........

Recently some Uz pols are promoting paying off social security bye giving uz land in Alaska........ Remembering a timeline where a better uz gave refuge to refugee Jews by doing this...... Not sure if is practical....... Alaska is a State now though most of the land is Federal.....
A guy named Joe may have died trying to change that but as far as I read it he was a jerk........

I really doubt the Israelis will move except under nuclear threat which is what I suspect is one option for the MADhi Mad mad mullahs and Persian IrreDental AssOciation intent on a new revived Persian Shia Hegemonic Empire. ......

Might work...... Jews usually choose life but the Samson Meme has gotten quite a foothold ....

In fact, within 100 years it will be possible to build artificial islands in the ocean by moving rocks from one place to another from the bottom of the sea. This would still be Zionism.
Hmmm......... Don't think we have 100 years......... Like the mountain moving ideas....... Maybe move the Temple Mount to Antarctica :o or Up & Out... :shock:

It is sad things ended up the way they did.... But that's the way they are........ Jews have right to be there but it is like having a nice house in a nasty neighborhood..... And would be nutso to put themselves under Muslim rule..... If anything the Muslim meme infecting the Killer Apes of the region is increasing in virulence......... Sharia is back in Style :roll:

May have terrible things done to them or have to do terrible things :o :shock: :roll: :evil:

Long Term best solution is the same for Jews/Israelis as for others in at least the Northern Hemisphere: Uz, Bears, Dragons, Indian Elephants, Peacocks, Japanese, Euros, ...... Get space colonies going...... Orion is probably the quickest followed by a Jacob's Ladder... Orion might also make Israel an Industrial Spaceport zone perhaps reducing the interest of crazy Christians, Muslims and Penguins in living there.....

Not going to be able to save everyone but maybe a survivable remnant........

How likely is this........ NOT VERY......... Much more likely is some sort of half assed pre-emptive conventional strike on Iran followed by mutual nuclear strikes with much of the Middle East and maybe the Northern Hemisphere uninhabitable........
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

.

Really stupid , should have not listened to Rabbis

Argentina would be much better than that troubled place Palestine

Poor Rhubarb Dayan was diggin and diggin trying to find some (Jewish history), ne exist pas

Argentina, fertile land, best beef in the world, best girls in the world, one of the best wines in the world and and and, you name it they have it, and, no GAZANS :lol: .. a paradise

BTW, seems Argentina and Chile has big Palestinian community


.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:Until recently, Greece was one of the most Antisemitic countries

What do you mean "until recently?" Haven't you been reading up on Golden Dawn?


But the situation of the Coptic Christians in Egypt is a good representative indicator that non-Muslims in most parts of the Arab world are not treated as equals, and this is not because of government policy, it is because of the culture of the country. (Egypt has a population of 80 million, and it is considered a cultural leader of the Arab world.)
Copts in Egypt are often mistreated, but they are still treated better than Palestinians are by Israel, and the U.S. lauds Israel as a model state in the Middle East and a close friend and ally, and I don't think Egypt would be slighted if I said that the U.S. carries more influence worldwide than Egypt does.

So how reasonable is it to hold politically chaotic and relatively underdeveloped Egypt to a different standard than the US and its proxies?


It's a waste of time to use technical terms such as "Dhimmi", "Sharia", etc, the point is the general behavior of the people.
An accurate understanding of history is never a waste of time.


Thus the question of this thread is this: if the current demographic trends continue, if the emerging Islamic world becomes more dominant, what can be done to convince them to be tolerant towards those who are not Muslim?
That is false and a thread hijack. The point of this thread, which was created out of a worthwhile digression in another thread, was to talk about the meaning and application of the "dhimmi" as a term/status in history.

Of course, conversion to Christianity would guarantee equality in the Arab world.
Not so. Palestinian Christians are abused by Israelis as readily as Palestinian Muslims. Just ask them.





And is this HAL9000 with a new account?
TurkishJew

Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Thus the question of this thread is this: if the current demographic trends continue, if the emerging Islamic world becomes more dominant, what can be done to convince them to be tolerant towards those who are not Muslim?
That is false and a thread hijack. The point of this thread, which was created out of a worthwhile digression in another thread, was to talk about the meaning and application of the "dhimmi" as a term/status in history.

Of course, conversion to Christianity would guarantee equality in the Arab world.
Not so. Palestinian Christians are abused by Israelis as readily as Palestinian Muslims. Just ask them.

And is this HAL9000 with a new account?


Of course, HAL9000 got replaced by TurkishJew, and I had HAL 9000 disabled, as I stated at the beginning of the threat about Turkish Jewish history.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was talking about the fact that those Jews who convert to Islam are no longer discriminated in the Arab world, which proves that a significant portion of the opposition against Jews coming to Israel, being religious. As I mentioned, the videos at YouTube show that the 200 Israeli Jews who converted to Islam are loved by the Arabs.


There is no hijacking of the thread's main idea, on the contrary, the thread can also contain de-facto Apartheid based on pseudo-dhimmi concepts. Most applications of religion in the world deviate from the pure original systems. Indeed, life in Egypt for the Christians, is a good thing to study in this thread. As I said, I am ashamed of the fact that Israel does not actively support Coptic Christians due to the fear of offending Egypt, which currently has a peace treaty that is fragile. If I were the Israeli government, I would risk trouble and support Copts actively.
Last edited by TurkishJew on Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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How to Help the Copts.......... Stray cats......

Post by monster_gardener »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Thus the question of this thread is this: if the current demographic trends continue, if the emerging Islamic world becomes more dominant, what can be done to convince them to be tolerant towards those who are not Muslim?
That is false and a thread hijack. The point of this thread, which was created out of a worthwhile digression in another thread, was to talk about the meaning and application of the "dhimmi" as a term/status in history.

Of course, conversion to Christianity would guarantee equality in the Arab world.
Not so. Palestinian Christians are abused by Israelis as readily as Palestinian Muslims. Just ask them.

And is this HAL9000 with a new account?


Of course, HAL9000 got replaced by TurkishJew, and I had HAL 9000 disabled, as I stated at the beginning of the threat about Turkish Jewish history.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was talking about the fact that those Jews who convert to Islam are no longer discriminated in the Arab world, which proves that a significant portion of the opposition against Jews coming to Israel, being religious. As I mentioned, the videos at YouTube show that the 200 Israeli Jews who converted to Islam are loved by the Arabs.


There is no hijacking of the thread's main idea, on the contrary, the thread can also contain de-facto Apartheid based on pseudo-dhimmi concepts. Most applications of religion in the world deviate from the pure original systems. Indeed, life in Egypt for the Christians, is a good thing to study in this thread. As I said, I am ashamed by the fact that Israel does not support Coptic Christians due to the fear of offending Egypt, which currently has a peace treaty that is fragile. If I were the Israeli government, I would risk trouble and support Copts actively.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Hal.
If I were the Israeli government, I would risk trouble and support Copts actively.
Unless attitudes change in Egypt........ You have de facto dhimmitude, dude :twisted:

Perhaps the best way to support the Copts would be to help them to leave Egypt.... Maybe for Israel..... Maybe for elsewhere......

Israel did something like this for the Black Ethiopian Jews......

Or if the Copts insist on staying in Egypt to suggest that they just convert to Islam and get it over with.......
Though this may NOT be in Israel's interest....... Converts sometimes are the Worst Fanatics..... Feel they have to prove themselves real.......

Also before assisting the Copts, it might be wise to determine what Copts think about Jews and if that is changeable on the basis the aid you offer........ Some Christians like Brigette Gabriel love the Jews/Israelis....... And not for some Red Heifer Hope......Other Christians can dislike Jews worse than some Muslims....... Christ Killers etc.......Not wise to rescue people who might like to betray you unless they have a sense of honor/gratitude like Gabriel..........Not saying you shouldn't do it....... Just that it isn't safe so be on your guard..... Helping Killer Apes is one of the most dangerous things you can do....... Stray cats are easy by comparison..........
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Ibrahim
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Thus the question of this thread is this: if the current demographic trends continue, if the emerging Islamic world becomes more dominant, what can be done to convince them to be tolerant towards those who are not Muslim?
That is false and a thread hijack. The point of this thread, which was created out of a worthwhile digression in another thread, was to talk about the meaning and application of the "dhimmi" as a term/status in history.

Of course, conversion to Christianity would guarantee equality in the Arab world.
Not so. Palestinian Christians are abused by Israelis as readily as Palestinian Muslims. Just ask them.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was talking about the fact that those Jews who convert to Islam are no longer discriminated in the Arab world, which proves that a significant portion of the opposition against Jews coming to Israel, being religious. As I mentioned, the videos at YouTube show that the 200 Israeli Jews who converted to Islam are loved by the Arabs.
Well that's really interesting. I'll weigh that against dozens or hundreds of YouTube videos of Israeli Jews discriminating against or attacking some of the 4 million Palestinian Christians and Arabs.

Too bad none of this has anything to do with the original point of this thread, which was about history and not yet another thread for you to rant about Mizrahi Jews and how evil Arabs are. You've got what, six other threads with that same lavender going on in them at once?

There is no hijacking of the thread's main idea, on the contrary, the thread can also contain de-facto Apartheid based on pseudo-dhimmi concepts.
Who whole point of the thread is that this bullshit use of the term "dhimmi" by contemporary anti-Muslim propagandists is inaccurate. So your appropriation of both the thread and the term as a description of various contemporary conduct that you think is bad is not only a hijacking of the thread for your own purposes, but the perpetuation of the false and misleading use of the term that this thread was about correcting. But thanks for the great contribution.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: Who whole point of the thread is that this bullshit use of the term "dhimmi" by contemporary anti-Muslim propagandists is inaccurate.
What word do you want to use?
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
There is no hijacking of the thread's main idea, on the contrary, the thread can also contain de-facto Apartheid based on pseudo-dhimmi concepts.
Who whole point of the thread is that this bullshit use of the term "dhimmi" by contemporary anti-Muslim propagandists is inaccurate. So your appropriation of both the thread and the term as a description of various contemporary conduct that you think is bad is not only a hijacking of the thread for your own purposes, but the perpetuation of the false and misleading use of the term that this thread was about correcting. But thanks for the great contribution.

Your ability to find one excuse after another to suppress the knowledge that in the Arab world, non-Muslims are discriminated is remarkable. My point was that I was trying to avoid using the word dhimmi in the first place, and I was focusing on the essential thing, which is discrimination based on perception of the word non-Muslim (probably the ones doing the this discrimination don't even have a clear idea about what their own Islam is, and they may not even know why they are doing the discrimination in the first place.) The fact that it is happening more than in the current more atheist Europe that has already abandoned the old Christianity is the point.

I tried to avoid using dhimmi, instead I said that due to ignorance in many Arab countries they use other terms instead of dhimmi, and you start using words to walk around the subject.

The the bad old days Europe was far more bigoted and the Arabs were better than Europeans for the Jews, but currently the situation changed, Europe improved. Ironically, even in Germany, at the present moment, Jews are better off than in Arab countries, which is remarkable. 75 years ago a German Jew would have begged to be in an Arab country instead of Berlin. But times have changed, and this thread is a good place to discuss how to convince the Arabs to become more tolerant.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
There is no hijacking of the thread's main idea, on the contrary, the thread can also contain de-facto Apartheid based on pseudo-dhimmi concepts.
The whole point of the thread is that this bullshit use of the term "dhimmi" by contemporary anti-Muslim propagandists is inaccurate. So your appropriation of both the thread and the term as a description of various contemporary conduct that you think is bad is not only a hijacking of the thread for your own purposes, but the perpetuation of the false and misleading use of the term that this thread was about correcting. But thanks for the great contribution.
Your ability to find one excuse after another to suppress the knowledge that in the Arab world, non-Muslims are discriminated is remarkable.
Another intentionally dishonest mischaracterization. Also ironic since you are starting of hijacking a half dozen threads to rant about this very subject, excuse or minimize Israeli violence against Arabs, and make personal accusations.


My point was that I was trying to avoid using the word dhimmi in the first place,
The thread is ABOUT the word "dhimmi," how it was used historically, and what it actually meant. Then Milo wanted us to take a moment to internalize white supremacy, and now you want to repeat the same story about Mizrahi Jews you've posted in a dozen threads. So congrats, historical discussion over and we can listen to the same story about Mizrahi Jews and the evil disgusting Muslim pigs who oppress them yet again.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Hans Bulvai »

TurkishJew wrote:the knowledge that in the Arab world, non-Muslims are discriminated is remarkable.
{chuckle}

I'm sorry. Carry on.
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Is Bumipatra making the Best of a Bad Situation

Post by monster_gardener »

Typhoon wrote:Even Mad Hatter Mahathir is now on record as saying that the discriminatory bumiputra laws were a mistake [adopted back in the day when social engineering was all the rage].

He's also on record as acknowledging that if it were not for the Chinese [and Indians], the rest of the country would still be subsistence fishing in kampongs.

I think that it was a mistake to include the once independent state of Sarawak and Sabah on the island of Borneo as part of Malaysia. Same for Penang.

Malaysia certainly has it's share of problems, including massive Singapore envy. However, it is advancing quite well economically.

As is the case with most nations on the planet, it's not all black and white, but many shades of grey.

Malaysia is worth a visit - I can recommend it to you.

Another interesting development in SE Asia is the rapid changes taking place in Indonesia - apparently for the better.

In general, SE Asia is the new growth region [along with parts of Africa].

Thank you VERY MUCH for your reply, Typhoon.

I have heard those complaints about Bumipatra too but I am still wondering if the Mad Hatter may have had something despite his disavowal of it..

First, You have had boots on the ground there and know more than I about it..........

AIUI under Bumipatra to have a business, unless you are a Bumipatra, you have to have a Bumipatra/Malay Muslim partner who often but not always is nothing but deadwood........

But this would seem to give the Bumipatra Business partners an interest in making sure the non Bumipatras don't have an unfriendly work environment so that the Bumipatra will keep getting his unearned income.........

Depending on how widely distributed the Bumipatra business partners are distributed..... Ideally many businesses with many Bumipatras.......
This could be a Jiyza tax scheme that goes more directly to the individual Malay Muslims rather than to a Wealth Weasel of a Emir.....
Who knows, maybe the Bumipatra might try to actually help out in his own enlightened self interest...... I am probably being too optimistic........

So none of this bombing and beheading the Chinese/Buddhists etc. which happens up north in Thailand's southern parts...... Wondering if the Buddhists there might need to "Win all by simply letting go" Sell/cede the problem provinces & Muslims to Malaysia.........

Just speculation.....
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote: The thread is ABOUT the word "dhimmi," how it was used historically, and what it actually meant. Then Milo wanted us to take a moment to internalize white supremacy, and now you want to repeat the same story about Mizrahi Jews you've posted in a dozen threads. So congrats, historical discussion over and we can listen to the same story about Mizrahi Jews and the evil disgusting Muslim pigs who oppress them yet again.

But when did I say that all Muslims are disgusting pigs that oppress Jews? Many certainly are that way, but many are not. For instance in the Soviet Turkic republics, there is almost no antisemitism, and this is despite the wars between Israel and Palestine. In particular, in Azerbaijan where the language is very similar to the Anatolian Turkish, the Mavi Marmara incident was extensively criticized all over the media, but this did not lead to any increase in antisemitism. It turns out that Jews lived in Azerbaijan for at least 1,000 years, under Islamic rule overall, so this is relevant for the thread about non-Muslims living under Islamic rule in history.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by noddy »

many of the chinese i know in australia are ex malaysian ones who left the rampant racism.

its a good thing, we got the entrepreneurial and motivated ones :)
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:In particular, in Azerbaijan where the language is very similar to the Anatolian Turkish, the Mavi Marmara incident was extensively criticized all over the media, but this did not lead to any increase in antisemitism.
More on-topic insights.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Parodite »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: The thread is ABOUT the word "dhimmi," how it was used historically, and what it actually meant. Then Milo wanted us to take a moment to internalize white supremacy, and now you want to repeat the same story about Mizrahi Jews you've posted in a dozen threads. So congrats, historical discussion over and we can listen to the same story about Mizrahi Jews and the evil disgusting Muslim pigs who oppress them yet again.

But when did I say that all Muslims are disgusting pigs that oppress Jews? Many certainly are that way, but many are not. For instance in the Soviet Turkic republics, there is almost no antisemitism, and this is despite the wars between Israel and Palestine. In particular, in Azerbaijan where the language is very similar to the Anatolian Turkish, the Mavi Marmara incident was extensively criticized all over the media, but this did not lead to any increase in antisemitism. It turns out that Jews lived in Azerbaijan for at least 1,000 years, under Islamic rule overall, so this is relevant for the thread about non-Muslims living under Islamic rule in history.
You do well and are on topic. Please continue.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Parodite »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: The thread is ABOUT the word "dhimmi," how it was used historically, and what it actually meant. Then Milo wanted us to take a moment to internalize white supremacy, and now you want to repeat the same story about Mizrahi Jews you've posted in a dozen threads. So congrats, historical discussion over and we can listen to the same story about Mizrahi Jews and the evil disgusting Muslim pigs who oppress them yet again.

But when did I say that all Muslims are disgusting pigs that oppress Jews? Many certainly are that way, but many are not. For instance in the Soviet Turkic republics, there is almost no antisemitism, and this is despite the wars between Israel and Palestine. In particular, in Azerbaijan where the language is very similar to the Anatolian Turkish, the Mavi Marmara incident was extensively criticized all over the media, but this did not lead to any increase in antisemitism. It turns out that Jews lived in Azerbaijan for at least 1,000 years, under Islamic rule overall, so this is relevant for the thread about non-Muslims living under Islamic rule in history.
You do well and are on topic. Please continue.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Parodite »

Another question: did it make a difference in how non-Muslims came to live under Islamic rule? I suppose the sword of conquest was not everywhere and always as bloody, and that a religion has other means to spread itself. I'm ust looking for the details of the map.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:In particular, in Azerbaijan where the language is very similar to the Anatolian Turkish, the Mavi Marmara incident was extensively criticized all over the media, but this did not lead to any increase in antisemitism.
More on-topic insights.

The Jews of Azerbaijan lived under Muslim Rule for a long time, where they were, and still are, in very good shape: therefore this is part of the topic. But it does disprove your claim that the new wave of agitation in Turkey against the local Turkish Jews is "understandable" because of the gravity of Israel's crimes against Palestinians. 6,000 loyal Turkish Jews out of 23,000, left their homeland during the last 5 years. Previously they did not mind living in a Muslim majority, but things changed.
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Re: Non-Muslims under Islamic rule in history

Post by Ibrahim »

Rhapsody wrote:Another question: did it make a difference in how non-Muslims came to live under Islamic rule? I suppose the sword of conquest was not everywhere and always as bloody, and that a religion has other means to spread itself. I'm ust looking for the details of the map.
It didn't matter to their legal status. Historically most were local inhabitants of regions that were conquered by Islamic armies, but others were migrants from oppressive conditions in Christian Europe, or economic migrants from less-prosperous parts of Central Asia.

IIRC during the Abbasid Caliphate there was a kind of waiver for foreign merchants, who were thought to be "just visiting" and were there for the economic benefit of the state (and themselves of course). There were elaborate gift-giving requirements to be granted trade concessions anyway, so all merchants paid this "tax" regardless of religion.
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