Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Ironically, both Assad (father and son) as well as Saddam Hussein are preferable to Israel instead of a more religious extremist takeover of Iraq and Syria. Under Assad family's rule, even the Syrian help for Hezbollah was always in moderation. Even a nuclear-armed Saddam and/or Assad would have been perceived as less dangerous by Israel compared to a fanatical system similar to Al Qaeda coming to power in those countries.
This statement makes no sense. "Al Qaeda" is a blanket term for terrorist organizations, not a system of government that has operated anywhere, ever. To say that contemporary Iraq poses more of a thread to Israel than Iraq under Saddam is nonsensical. To say that Assad, who as a matter of known fact supplied Hezbollah with weapons that killed Israelis, is better for Israel than any hypothetical regime that his overthrow might produce, is nonsensical.

After all, during the Cold War, both the Soviet Union and the United States always knew how to negotiate and both sides feared escalating the tension beyond a certain limit.


The only country in the Middle East with a nuclear arsenal, and which is currently threatening another state, is Israel (directed towards Iran).


As for the suffering of the Palestinians, it was not, and should not be the aim of Israel to rule the lives of the Palestinians in West Bank, Gaza, etc, but the main point is to encircle both Gaza and West Bank to prevent the Palestinians from arming themselves.
Surprising admission that Gaza and the West Bank are de-facto concentration camps which the Israelis seek to keep powerless and isolated on principle. Doubling down on this failed policy is unlikely to produce better results over the long term.


To be exact, the reason there are 1.5 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens is because the Israelis were actually not as aggressive as many other nations, they could have deported those Palestinians who did not promise that they support Israel and the Jews
"We're not the worst! We're not the worst!"
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monster_gardener
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Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Palestinians Prefer Being Monsters to Being Gardeners ;-)

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Ironically, both Assad (father and son) as well as Saddam Hussein are preferable to Israel instead of a more religious extremist takeover of Iraq and Syria. Under Assad family's rule, even the Syrian help for Hezbollah was always in moderation. Even a nuclear-armed Saddam and/or Assad would have been perceived as less dangerous by Israel compared to a fanatical system similar to Al Qaeda coming to power in those countries.
This statement makes no sense. "Al Qaeda" is a blanket term for terrorist organizations, not a system of government that has operated anywhere, ever. To say that contemporary Iraq poses more of a thread to Israel than Iraq under Saddam is nonsensical. To say that Assad, who as a matter of known fact supplied Hezbollah with weapons that killed Israelis, is better for Israel than any hypothetical regime that his overthrow might produce, is nonsensical.

After all, during the Cold War, both the Soviet Union and the United States always knew how to negotiate and both sides feared escalating the tension beyond a certain limit.


The only country in the Middle East with a nuclear arsenal, and which is currently threatening another state, is Israel (directed towards Iran).


As for the suffering of the Palestinians, it was not, and should not be the aim of Israel to rule the lives of the Palestinians in West Bank, Gaza, etc, but the main point is to encircle both Gaza and West Bank to prevent the Palestinians from arming themselves.
Surprising admission that Gaza and the West Bank are de-facto concentration camps which the Israelis seek to keep powerless and isolated on principle. Doubling down on this failed policy is unlikely to produce better results over the long term.


To be exact, the reason there are 1.5 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens is because the Israelis were actually not as aggressive as many other nations, they could have deported those Palestinians who did not promise that they support Israel and the Jews
"We're not the worst! We're not the worst!"
Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
Al Qaeda" is a blanket term for terrorist organizations, not a system of government that has operated anywhere, ever.
IMVHO Not So......

The Taliban was pretty much the Same Sort of Salafi SlimeBall government in Afghanistan: Al Queda with a Governmental Base :lol: :twisted: :lol:
al-Qaeda (play /ælˈkaɪdə/ al-KY-də; Arabic: القاعدة‎ al-qāʿidah, Arabic: [ælqɑːʕɪdɐ], translation: "The Base"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Queda

One major intent of the Salafi Slimes is to institute, in all their rigor, elements of the traditional Muslim culture/civilization as allegedly outlined by Mohammed in the Koran, Hadiths, Sunna, Fiqh etc..... Whatever the Salafi's differences with Sufis like Ghalazi on things like mystically communing with Allah, I highly doubt that they would have problems with Ghalazis prescription on how to treat Non-Muslims in the Malignant grasp of Muslims: Slap them around as you extort protection money from them and kill them at the least sign that they have not been beaten into total submission....... So perhaps elements of Salafi practice have frequently been in operation wherever unrestrained Muslim Governments are found......
The only country in the Middle East with a nuclear arsenal, and which is currently threatening another state, is Israel (directed towards Iran)
We can dispute a bit over geography but for me, Afghanistan & Pakistan are also in the Middle East culturally at least....... And Pakistan is threatening other countries........ India directly......... Pretty Near the whole world if this Near Failed State breaks up and/or loses control of its Nukes. In a way, wherever Muslims are, they tend to bring the Malignant Muslim Middle East with them...
Surprising admission that Gaza and the West Bank are de-facto concentration camps which the Israelis seek to keep powerless and isolated on principle. Doubling down on this failed policy is unlikely to produce better results over the long term.
I know that idealists like Gandhi and maybe some here are frustrated that the Israelis will not be good little victims and let their enemies arm and kill them if they can stop it...

That POS Gandhi wanted the Jews to commit suicide... Screw that.... Effectively done that already once.... Not going to do it again....

In any case it is better than Muslims treat Non Muslims when they have the opportunity to do as they will unrestrained by fear of retribution....

As a thought problem, what do you think that the PRC would do to Hong Kong and Macao if they started launching rockets and commando raids at the PRC with a view to aiding Taiwan to retake China........ And China has the strategic depth to put up with that sort of harassment......... Israel doesn't have that luxury....... Is not in Canada where hopefully the rockets and commandos will not land.....

Or if that is too theoretical, what if Mexico launched commando raids on Uz, Pershing ;) oops I mean perish the thought but it happened about 100 years ago, and we sent Gen. Black Jack Pershing to gum ;) up Pancho Villa's work. We Uz like attacks no more than Israelis.....
"We're not the worst! We're not the worst!"
The Perfect is the enemy of the Good........

IMVHO the people of Gaza have and had the ability to make their own lives better but have persisted in choosing the stick by launching rockets at Israel and perhaps literally trashing the carrot by destroying their Jewish given Greenhouses....... They seem to prefer to being Monsters ;) :twisted: :lol: to being Gardeners ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Ironically, both Assad (father and son) as well as Saddam Hussein are preferable to Israel instead of a more religious extremist takeover of Iraq and Syria. Under Assad family's rule, even the Syrian help for Hezbollah was always in moderation. Even a nuclear-armed Saddam and/or Assad would have been perceived as less dangerous by Israel compared to a fanatical system similar to Al Qaeda coming to power in those countries.
This statement makes no sense. "Al Qaeda" is a blanket term for terrorist organizations, not a system of government that has operated anywhere, ever. To say that contemporary Iraq poses more of a thread to Israel than Iraq under Saddam is nonsensical. To say that Assad, who as a matter of known fact supplied Hezbollah with weapons that killed Israelis, is better for Israel than any hypothetical regime that his overthrow might produce, is nonsensical.

After all, during the Cold War, both the Soviet Union and the United States always knew how to negotiate and both sides feared escalating the tension beyond a certain limit.


The only country in the Middle East with a nuclear arsenal, and which is currently threatening another state, is Israel (directed towards Iran).


As for the suffering of the Palestinians, it was not, and should not be the aim of Israel to rule the lives of the Palestinians in West Bank, Gaza, etc, but the main point is to encircle both Gaza and West Bank to prevent the Palestinians from arming themselves.
Surprising admission that Gaza and the West Bank are de-facto concentration camps which the Israelis seek to keep powerless and isolated on principle. Doubling down on this failed policy is unlikely to produce better results over the long term.


To be exact, the reason there are 1.5 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens is because the Israelis were actually not as aggressive as many other nations, they could have deported those Palestinians who did not promise that they support Israel and the Jews
"We're not the worst! We're not the worst!"

Instead of using the meaningless word "Al Qaeda", I should have said "religious extremism", as being more dangerous for Israel than secular dictators who are logical in planning their own survival.

Again, currently Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has such powerful weapons of mass destruction, but very soon, within a few decades, many more Middle Eastern countries will have such weapons. In fact, instead of massive biological, chemical and radiological crude weapons (which can be assembled in short order), even thousands of old-fashioned cannons, when focused on a small area like Israel would be more than enough to kill everybody there within a few hours. But so far the enemies of Israel chose not to attempt such a scenario, since they do not yet feel a fanatical enough doctrine that values death more than life. Thus the real fear of Israel is irrational religious extremism. Israel destroyed Saddam's reactor because it could, but even a nuclear Saddam would not have dared attack Israel because he was never a religious extremist.

Gaza being a "de facto concentration camp" is your terminology, but Palestinians are not the only people under siege, Israel, is ideologically under siege in the sense that Hamas openly says that the only reason they have not destroyed Israel is because they don't yet have the capability. So far, while you still say that what you want is a two-state solution, but you still have not made any suggestion about what Israel should do to keep the Hamas rockets under control. Lifting the blockade of Gaza was your suggestion, without considering the fact that if Hamas gets 10 times as many rockets after the lifting of the blockade of Gaza, then Israel will have to use much more deadly force when Hamas fires so many more rockets.

Indeed, we the Israelis are less bad, and this is a virtue in the Middle East.

In any case, the possibility of a two-state solution still exists because there is enough room for both populations to reside there. One reason Israel might survive the long term war is because if Arabs become extremists, by contagion the ultra-Orthodox people in Israel (and perhaps the world) will also turn extremist. Maybe you don't realize but in ancient times, the Jewish Jihadis fought the Roman Empire with a lot more determination than the Muslim Jihadis. So by contagion if the ultra-Orthodox Jews reproduce by having every woman produce 10 babies by the age of 40, this would increase the number of Jews to hundreds of millions within a century or two. This can be very bad for a lot of Arabs because the Jewish sharia law will give them a lot less equality than what the Israeli Palestinians currently have (almost NONE of the Israeli Palestinians left Israel unlike the 25 % of the Turkish Jewish community!) Thus easy-going people like me are the best friend the Arabs and all Muslims have, but I am not being appreciated. Arabs should accept a reasonable two-state solution by making a deal with people like me, before it is too late or else the ultra-Orthodox guys will become impossible to restrain. You should know my value. :lol:
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Ironically, both Assad (father and son) as well as Saddam Hussein are preferable to Israel instead of a more religious extremist takeover of Iraq and Syria. Under Assad family's rule, even the Syrian help for Hezbollah was always in moderation. Even a nuclear-armed Saddam and/or Assad would have been perceived as less dangerous by Israel compared to a fanatical system similar to Al Qaeda coming to power in those countries.
This statement makes no sense. "Al Qaeda" is a blanket term for terrorist organizations, not a system of government that has operated anywhere, ever. To say that contemporary Iraq poses more of a thread to Israel than Iraq under Saddam is nonsensical. To say that Assad, who as a matter of known fact supplied Hezbollah with weapons that killed Israelis, is better for Israel than any hypothetical regime that his overthrow might produce, is nonsensical.

After all, during the Cold War, both the Soviet Union and the United States always knew how to negotiate and both sides feared escalating the tension beyond a certain limit.


The only country in the Middle East with a nuclear arsenal, and which is currently threatening another state, is Israel (directed towards Iran).


As for the suffering of the Palestinians, it was not, and should not be the aim of Israel to rule the lives of the Palestinians in West Bank, Gaza, etc, but the main point is to encircle both Gaza and West Bank to prevent the Palestinians from arming themselves.
Surprising admission that Gaza and the West Bank are de-facto concentration camps which the Israelis seek to keep powerless and isolated on principle. Doubling down on this failed policy is unlikely to produce better results over the long term.


To be exact, the reason there are 1.5 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens is because the Israelis were actually not as aggressive as many other nations, they could have deported those Palestinians who did not promise that they support Israel and the Jews
"We're not the worst! We're not the worst!"

Instead of using the meaningless word "Al Qaeda", I should have said "religious extremism", as being more dangerous for Israel than secular dictators who are logical in planning their own survival.
The only extremist regime in the region is Iran, and they seem quite shrewd about planning for their own survival. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that such regimes are any worse for Israel than dictators, indeed Iran and Assad have supported Hezbollah in equal measure.

Moreover, your computation disregards the condition of the population in these countries. This is not exactly surprising, but nor is it inspiring.






Gaza being a "de facto concentration camp" is your terminology, but Palestinians are not the only people under siege, Israel, is ideologically under siege
This is a laughable claim when Gaza is blockaded by Israel, and such dangerous terror weapons as wheat and medicine are not allowed in. To claim that Israel is under siege when it is Israeli soldiers controlling all the checkpoints, Israeli ships blockading the ports, and Israeli soldiers killing far more Palestinians than Palestinians do Israelis, is frankly dishonest.

We're back to Shamir's "put[ting] the fear of death into the Arabs," except it isn't working.


Indeed, we the Israelis are less bad, and this is a virtue in the Middle East.
Which other country in the region maintains massive concentration camps for the displaced populations it stole lands and homes from?

In any case, the possibility of a two-state solution still exists because there is enough room for both populations to reside there.
You'd better hope so, and agitate for it among your Israeli friends. The obvious solution is a two-state solution, but if the Settlers and Kahanists and Likudniks get their way and make it impossible then I don't think there is much of a future for Israel in the long run.



Maybe you don't realize but in ancient times, the Jewish Jihadis fought the Roman Empire with a lot more determination than the Muslim Jihadis
They fought Rome for a while and then killed themselves as Masada. Currently, Israelis suckle on the American tit while Muslim fighters and civilians are killed by the US military, and yet continue to fight them across several countries, while fighting Arab dictators and resisting Israeli occupation at the same time.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Ironically, both Assad (father and son) as well as Saddam Hussein are preferable to Israel instead of a more religious extremist takeover of Iraq and Syria. Under Assad family's rule, even the Syrian help for Hezbollah was always in moderation. Even a nuclear-armed Saddam and/or Assad would have been perceived as less dangerous by Israel compared to a fanatical system similar to Al Qaeda coming to power in those countries.
This statement makes no sense. "Al Qaeda" is a blanket term for terrorist organizations, not a system of government that has operated anywhere, ever. To say that contemporary Iraq poses more of a thread to Israel than Iraq under Saddam is nonsensical. To say that Assad, who as a matter of known fact supplied Hezbollah with weapons that killed Israelis, is better for Israel than any hypothetical regime that his overthrow might produce, is nonsensical.

After all, during the Cold War, both the Soviet Union and the United States always knew how to negotiate and both sides feared escalating the tension beyond a certain limit.


The only country in the Middle East with a nuclear arsenal, and which is currently threatening another state, is Israel (directed towards Iran).


As for the suffering of the Palestinians, it was not, and should not be the aim of Israel to rule the lives of the Palestinians in West Bank, Gaza, etc, but the main point is to encircle both Gaza and West Bank to prevent the Palestinians from arming themselves.
Surprising admission that Gaza and the West Bank are de-facto concentration camps which the Israelis seek to keep powerless and isolated on principle. Doubling down on this failed policy is unlikely to produce better results over the long term.


To be exact, the reason there are 1.5 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens is because the Israelis were actually not as aggressive as many other nations, they could have deported those Palestinians who did not promise that they support Israel and the Jews
"We're not the worst! We're not the worst!"

Instead of using the meaningless word "Al Qaeda", I should have said "religious extremism", as being more dangerous for Israel than secular dictators who are logical in planning their own survival.
(1) The only extremist regime in the region is Iran, and they seem quite shrewd about planning for their own survival. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that such regimes are any worse for Israel than dictators, indeed Iran and Assad have supported Hezbollah in equal measure.

Moreover, your computation disregards the condition of the population in these countries. This is not exactly surprising, but nor is it inspiring.






Gaza being a "de facto concentration camp" is your terminology, but Palestinians are not the only people under siege, Israel, is ideologically under siege
(2) This is a laughable claim when Gaza is blockaded by Israel, and such dangerous terror weapons as wheat and medicine are not allowed in. To claim that Israel is under siege when it is Israeli soldiers controlling all the checkpoints, Israeli ships blockading the ports, and Israeli soldiers killing far more Palestinians than Palestinians do Israelis, is frankly dishonest.

We're back to Shamir's "put[ting] the fear of death into the Arabs," except it isn't working.


Indeed, we the Israelis are less bad, and this is a virtue in the Middle East.
Which other country in the region maintains massive concentration camps for the displaced populations it stole lands and homes from?

In any case, the possibility of a two-state solution still exists because there is enough room for both populations to reside there.
(3) You'd better hope so, and agitate for it among your Israeli friends. The obvious solution is a two-state solution, but if the Settlers and Kahanists and Likudniks get their way and make it impossible then I don't think there is much of a future for Israel in the long run.



Maybe you don't realize but in ancient times, the Jewish Jihadis fought the Roman Empire with a lot more determination than the Muslim Jihadis
(4) They fought Rome for a while and then killed themselves as Masada. Currently, Israelis suckle on the American tit while Muslim fighters and civilians are killed by the US military, and yet continue to fight them across several countries, while fighting Arab dictators and resisting Israeli occupation at the same time.
[Red colored numbers are added by TurkishJew]

1) For the moment, on the surface, the only current extremist regime appears to be Iran, but I would argue that ( without the racism of AzeriLoveIran about the superiority of Iranian culture over Arab culture), the Iranians are more sophisticated than Egypt in their calculations and I would feel more comfortable with a nuclear-armed Iran more than the more volatile irrationality of a nuclear-armed Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt. And the Muslim Brotherhood is close to becoming more extremist, the official peace agreement with Israel is just on paper, and if Egypt gets the capability to hurt Israel without getting hurt in the future, it will do so.

(2) Who says that wheat and medicine are not allowed into Gaza? In any case, even if Hamas currently does not have enough hardware to wipe out Israel, the many Grad missiles were more than enough to close down nearly half of Israel's economy until the Israelis used massive force in the Gaza War to stop the missiles. I was in Beersheba during the Gaza War, and this industrial city (to be exact a redneck town, but I like it since it has Ottoman architecture) was a ghost town during the Hamas rocket salvos. Nearly 50 % of the people left, and I was the only one walking in the street when alarms were sounding to warn us that new Hamas rockets were fired. It is true that very few Israelis died but this was because so far the Hamas missiles are not big enough, and everybody was taking cover and all businesses and schools, the university, were closed. Closing down the Israeli economy would bring down Israel. Only the massive Israeli use of force convinced Hamas to accept a temporary truce. The "ideological siege" is the word of Hamas and most Palestinians that they will never recognize Israel in any form, and that any peace treaty is just a temporary cease fire to regroup.

(3) I am not the only supporter of Israel who wants to cut a deal, but YOU are not helping much: none of my efforts will be helpful if you don't convince Hamas and the majority of the Palestinians to accept that Israel has the right to exist in some small boundaries. As long as they insist that they will never recognize Israel, this means that they will just wait for the occasion to attack again with more power whenever they can. Thus peace is a two-way street, and so far Erdogan has not asked Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist, even though Erdogan regularly meets them. Seriously, this can get Erdogan the Nobel Peace Prize.

(4) This is the most tragic misunderstanding. In fact, I can tolerate anything but I have zero tolerance for plagiarism. So you still deny that Islam learned Jihad from the Jews. Let me emphasize that the Masada suicide of the few hundred Jewish zealots was just the leftover people who chose not to be captured alive. There were three large Jewish revolts against Romans, and the grand total of Jewish casualties is between 750,000 and 1,500,000, even though they only managed to kill about 100,000 Roman soldiers. Thus the Jews sacrificed as many as 15 of their own people just to kill 1 Roman soldier. I will prepare a different thread about the 3 Jewish revolts later, because it seems that you are confusing the Spanish Jews of the Ottoman Empire with the ultra-Orthodox super-serious groups elsewhere. (The Spanish Jews are liked because we are very mellow, in the Ottoman Empire there were even some Synagogues that were simultaneously used as Mosques shared with Muslims in some Anatolian villages, and one of the rabbis in Turkey said to me that all religions are equal. But this is not true elsewhere, and we are an endangered species.)


Here is a cursory discussion of the 3 Jewish revolts against Rome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_wars
EXCERPT:
Great revolt: 250 thousand[3] – 1,1 million (per Josephus) Jews massacred; enslavement of 97,000;
Kitos War: annihilation of Jewish communities in Cyprus, Cyrenaica and Alexandria;
Bar Kokhba revolt: 400,000[3] – 580,000 (per Dio) civilians and militia massacred,
985 Judean villages razed (per Cassius Dio).
Note that especially after the Bar Kochba revolt (third revolt), the Romans resorted to killing 400,000 - 580,000 Jews (mostly civilians).

But it must be noted that Jews were VERY militaristic in their Jihad, as the Roman Empire was shocked to see that they lost 100,000 soldiers, which was a big deal at the time. 2,000 years ago the world population was only 250 million, and the Jewish casualties were absolutely massive demographically. The reason the Romans were so adamant about crushing the Jewish revolt was that there were other Jewish communities outside Palestine that were also revolting, and this is why Romans wanted to make sure that other nations don't become encouraged to revolt also.

Thus it seems that you don't understand how determined the ultra-religious Jews are, they fear death a lot less than the Islamic extremists. Thus it is not a good idea to imagine that Jews will just be spineless without America.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote: 1) For the moment, on the surface, the only current extremist regime appears to be Iran, but I would argue that ( without the racism of AzeriLoveIran about the superiority of Iranian culture over Arab culture), the Iranians are more sophisticated than Egypt in their calculations and I would feel more comfortable with a nuclear-armed Iran more than the more volatile irrationality of a nuclear-armed Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt. And the Muslim Brotherhood is close to becoming more extremist, the official peace agreement with Israel is just on paper, and if Egypt gets the capability to hurt Israel without getting hurt in the future, it will do so.
I'm not too interested in your civilizational hierarchy of Pomegranates and Egyptians.

(2) Who says that wheat and medicine are not allowed into Gaza?
The IDF.

In any case, even if Hamas currently does not have enough hardware to wipe out Israel, the many Grad missiles were more than enough to close down nearly half of Israel's economy until the Israelis used massive force in the Gaza War to stop the missiles. I was in Beersheba during the Gaza War, and this industrial city (to be exact a redneck town, but I like it since it has Ottoman architecture) was a ghost town during the Hamas rocket salvos. Nearly 50 % of the people left, and I was the only one walking in the street when alarms were sounding to warn us that new Hamas rockets were fired. It is true that very few Israelis died but this was because so far the Hamas missiles are not big enough, and everybody was taking cover and all businesses and schools, the university, were closed. Closing down the Israeli economy would bring down Israel. Only the massive Israeli use of force convinced Hamas to accept a temporary truce. The "ideological siege" is the word of Hamas and most Palestinians that they will never recognize Israel in any form, and that any peace treaty is just a temporary cease fire to regroup.
I don't really care about your opinions on Hamas, my point is that the blockade prevents essential supplies from reaching people in Gaza, justified by the bogeyman of Hamas. Its the same "collective punishment" idea that Israel has acted on for decades. Starve some Arab children, let them die of preventable illnesses, that'll teach them not to knuckle under. Except it never works, it just makes Israel look more brutal and stupid, and the resolve to resist Israeli occupation only increases.

(3) I am not the only supporter of Israel who wants to cut a deal, but YOU are not helping much:
The IDF and a Likud are apartheid fascists and the Settlers are the scum of the Earth, and you want to point the finger at me for slowing down the peace process? I live in Ottawa, pal. Clean up your own country. What I can do is vote against my Likud-coddling PM, and I was going to do that anyway for other reasons.

none of my efforts will be helpful if you don't convince Hamas


What the genuflect do I have to do with Hamas?



(4) This is the most tragic misunderstanding. In fact, I can tolerate anything but I have zero tolerance for plagiarism. So you still deny that Islam learned Jihad from the Jews.
I don't know what this even means.


Let me emphasize that the Masada suicide of the few hundred Jewish zealots was just the leftover people who chose not to be captured alive.
That's what I said.
There were three large Jewish revolts against Romans
I know.
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It's Memetic Evolution in Action

Post by monster_gardener »

TurkishJew wrote: (4) This is the most tragic misunderstanding. In fact, I can tolerate anything but I have zero tolerance for plagiarism. So you still deny that Islam learned Jihad from the Jews. Let me emphasize that the Masada suicide of the few hundred Jewish zealots was just the leftover people who chose not to be captured alive. There were three large Jewish revolts against Romans, and the grand total of Jewish casualties is between 750,000 and 1,500,000, even though they only managed to kill about 100,000 Roman soldiers. Thus the Jews sacrificed as many as 15 of their own people just to kill 1 Roman soldier. I will prepare a different thread about the 3 Jewish revolts later, because it seems that you are confusing the Spanish Jews of the Ottoman Empire with the ultra-Orthodox super-serious groups elsewhere. (The Spanish Jews are liked because we are very mellow, in the Ottoman Empire there were even some Synagogues that were simultaneously used as Mosques shared with Muslims in some Anatolian villages, and one of the rabbis in Turkey said to me that all religions are equal. But this is not true elsewhere, and we are an endangered species.)


Here is a cursory discussion of the 3 Jewish revolts against Rome:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_wars
EXCERPT:
Great revolt: 250 thousand[3] – 1,1 million (per Josephus) Jews massacred; enslavement of 97,000;
Kitos War: annihilation of Jewish communities in Cyprus, Cyrenaica and Alexandria;
Bar Kokhba revolt: 400,000[3] – 580,000 (per Dio) civilians and militia massacred,
985 Judean villages razed (per Cassius Dio).
Note that especially after the Bar Kochba revolt (third revolt), the Romans resorted to killing 400,000 - 580,000 Jews (mostly civilians).

But it must be noted that Jews were VERY militaristic in their Jihad, as the Roman Empire was shocked to see that they lost 100,000 soldiers, which was a big deal at the time. 2,000 years ago the world population was only 250 million, and the Jewish casualties were absolutely massive demographically. The reason the Romans were so adamant about crushing the Jewish revolt was that there were other Jewish communities outside Palestine that were also revolting, and this is why Romans wanted to make sure that other nations don't become encouraged to revolt also.

Thus it seems that you don't understand how determined the ultra-religious Jews are, they fear death a lot less than the Islamic extremists. Thus it is not a good idea to imagine that Jews will just be spineless without America.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Hal9000/Turkish Jew.

I believe that cultures and their memes can evolve........ similar but NOT identically to Darwin's Bio-Evolution Theory...

Throw in a Dash of Lamarck and Lysenko :shock: :o

Hypothesis: Violent Holy War Memes got control of the Jewish Culture in Judea-Palestine in Roman Empire times....... The Romans killed off those Jews infected with the meme so thoroughly that most survivors found that submit and "Go Along to Get Along" was more useful and that became the dominant meme for almost 2000 years........ When in near mid 20th Century Germany, a Roman Empire Wannabe ;) :evil: came along and killed off so many "Go Along to Get Along" Jews that the Meme Pool changed....... Reactivated the Joab Meme, the Samson meme and Masada Memes....

This is an oversimplification...... The French and the Dreyfus affair was another activating factor but the Holocaust convinced a significant number of Jews that being a good "Go Along to Get Along" "dhimmi" to whoever (Christian, Atheist, Muslim etc.) all the time was no longer a good survival strategy..............

Just a hypothesis........ NOT a Theory..........

Speculation.......... What would Islam be like today if a joint Persian Roman Military Effort had put down Arabia under Mohammed or Omar the way that the Romans put down the Bar Kochba Jews & Yadizgerd & Shapur the Great put down Christians........
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's Memetic Evolution in Action

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

monster_gardener wrote:.

Speculation .......... What would Islam be like today if a joint Persian Roman Military Exhibition had put down Arabia under Mohammed or Omar the way that the Romans put down the Bar Kochba & Yadizgerd & Shapur put down Christians .......

.

Would a world today be a better place if Yazdgerd would have defeated Omar's military, defeated Arabs ? meaning no Islam today

For sure world would be different

but how ? ?

Probably Pomegranates would have been dominant power .. would have meant no tyranny of Brits and French and Spanish and Portugal .. probably America would have been discovered by an Persian, lots of red Indians alive .. probably Pomegranates and Europeans would have been allied .. there would have been no communism, no Hitler, no Stalin no Churchill and no Mao, no colonialism

and

Israel would be now 1000+ yrs old

Monster (you might be speakin Persian now), am sure you wish Yazdgred had won

Significance of Yazdgerd's win would not be so much of no Islam (a footnote in bloodshed) but of changing path of history avoiding all the above

Probably Pomegranates would be ruling all that space and peace and prosperity for 1000s of yrs


:lol: :lol: :lol:


.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
(3) I am not the only supporter of Israel who wants to cut a deal, but YOU are not helping much:

I live in Ottawa, pal. Clean up your own country. What I can do is vote against my Likud-coddling PM, and I was going to do that anyway for other reasons.


What the genuflect do I have to do with Hamas?
[/quote]







You keep saying that you don't care about my "opinions" of Hamas and that you have nothing to do with the situation in this war, but you are indirectly contributing to the mess because you are only repeating the exaggerated propaganda that Israel is the cause of the situation, without acknowledging that Hamas' constitution that will never allow Israel to exist within a tiny neighborhood is also preventing the peace. You keep applauding Ergodan's pro-Hamas posture without even acknowledging that it is a good idea for Erdogan to try to convince Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist.

As I clarified above in no uncertain terms, the ultra-Orthodox wing of Israel (and perhaps Jews in general) have much higher birth rate, and their determination is such that they fear death even less than the Arab and Iranian Jihadists. The ludicrous idea that Israel will crack under pressure once Americans stop supporting Israel, can only lead to more miscalculations by the Arab world.

As for your exaggerated opinions about the Gaza blockade, wheat and medicine were cut only due to temporary irregularities, not due to a systematic plan by Israel to starve Gaza. Despite the current war against Hamas, which is the official and popular government of Gaza, the standard of living in Gaza is higher than in Egypt.

The UN Report that you and Erdogan despise said that the Israeli blockage of Gaza is LEGAL due to the official rocket fire and constitution of Hamas to attack Israel. It was Erdogan who originally wanted the UN investigation to write a report to incriminate Israel for Mavi Marmara, and in that report, Israel certainly was found responsible for using too much force, but when the same UN report determined that the Gaza blockade is legal due to Hamas, then suddenly Erdogan is saying that the UN is the evil Zionist collaborator. That UN report was hardly a friend of Israel.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
(3) I am not the only supporter of Israel who wants to cut a deal, but YOU are not helping much:

I live in Ottawa, pal. Clean up your own country. What I can do is vote against my Likud-coddling PM, and I was going to do that anyway for other reasons.


What the genuflect do I have to do with Hamas?



You keep saying that you don't care about my "opinions" of Hamas and that you have nothing to do with the situation in this war, but you are indirectly contributing to the mess because you are only repeating the exaggerated propaganda that Israel is the cause of the situation
Israel is the cause of the situation. Its not like Hamas pre-dates Israel. That isn't a justification of Hamas, just like the existence of Hamas doesn't justify every action taken by Israel. Its your blanket excuse for everything.



As I clarified above in no uncertain terms, the ultra-Orthodox wing of Israel (and perhaps Jews in general) have much higher birth rate, and their determination is such that they fear death even less than the Arab and Iranian Jihadists.
Its not in the interest of Israel to reduce this to a war of attrition. Spengler lives in a fantasy land where 16 million Israeli Jews are going to out-breed the entire Arab and Persian world. I don't think you want want to live in a fantasy world.


The ludicrous idea that Israel will crack under pressure once Americans stop supporting Israel, can only lead to more miscalculations by the Arab world.
Thinking that they can survive long-term with their present bellicose policies without US aid would be yet another Israeli miscalculation.



As for your exaggerated opinions about the Gaza blockade, wheat and medicine were cut only due to temporary irregularities, not due to a systematic plan by Israel to starve Gaza.
Oh cool. I'm sure anybody directly effected by a lack of wheat or medicine will understand.


The UN Report that you and Erdogan despise said that the Israeli blockage of Gaza is LEGAL
Now Israelis care about what the UN thinks?
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Hans Bulvai »

... exaggerated opinions about the Gaza blockade...

gazaviolin.jpg
gazaviolin.jpg (90.15 KiB) Viewed 1819 times
gazatambourine.jpg
gazatambourine.jpg (118.59 KiB) Viewed 1819 times
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The people you say
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Wake up motherfucker
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Violins in the Street.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
... exaggerated opinions about the Gaza blockade...

gazaviolin.jpg
gazatambourine.jpg
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Hans.

How else can Violins in the Streets be Stopped ;) oops I mean violence be stopped!! :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:


But OK....... I'm VERY Willing to support the import of violins and other musical instruments that cannot be converted easily to ranged weapons to Gaza providing the Israelis & some more or less honest brokers get to inspect the imports to make sure it is a violin in the violin case and that there isn't other contraband inside the violin.

I'm even willing to call the Israeli Embassy to express this view....... NOT JOKING.....

Best to be careful if you want to be kind and survive.....

Still remember mobsters threatening to "play a tune on their violin" a.k.a. sub-machine gun.....
Q: Why do cellists leave their instrument cases on the dashboards of their cars?
A2: If someone mistakes them for mafia, they might get some respect.
http://www.cello.org/heaven/silly/jokes.htm
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Pomegranates, Pomegranates, Rah, Rah, Rah vs. Death in a Cage.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Jnalum Persicum wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:.

Speculation .......... What would Islam be like today if a joint Persian Roman Military Exhibition had put down Arabia under Mohammed or Omar the way that the Romans put down the Bar Kochba & Yadizgerd & Shapur put down Christians .......

.

Would a world today be a better place if Yazdgerd would have defeated Omar's military, defeated Arabs ? meaning no Islam today

For sure world would be different

but how ? ?

Probably Pomegranates would have been dominant power .. would have meant no tyranny of Brits and French and Spanish and Portugal .. probably America would have been discovered by an Persian, lots of red Indians alive .. probably Pomegranates and Europeans would have been allied .. there would have been no communism, no Hitler, no Stalin no Churchill and no Mao, no colonialism

and

Israel would be now 1000+ yrs old

Monster (you might be speakin Persian now), am sure you wish Yazdgred had won

Significance of Yazdgerd's win would not be so much of no Islam (a footnote in bloodshed) but of changing path of history avoiding all the above

Probably Pomegranates would be ruling all that space and peace and prosperity for 1000s of yrs


:lol: :lol: :lol:


.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari........
Monster (you might be speakin Persian now), am sure you wish Yazdgred had won
You are right........ My sympathies are with the Pomegranates and against the Muslim invaders....

Even though it is a might have been that would eliminate mongrel me and my clan and probably you too......

I don't think that it would have been sweetness and light but if this timeline goes Dust because of a conflict between Muslims and others, it would have been better else-wise.....

Hopefully one where human killer apes are long dispersed off Earth in survivable colonies before the next big space rock hits or nutcases nuke it......

Though it is possible I might have ghostly regrets.......
Death in a Cage (1973)

On return from a trip to the past, Svetz sees a ghostly figure in his time machine. Back in his own time, his boss tells him to go back and try and capture the ghost. He travels back, and the ghost materialises into a skeletal man.

The man - Nathaniel Reynolds - is an earlier time traveller from an alternate timeline, in which the Cuban Missile Crisis erupted into nuclear war. Reynolds' skeletal appearance is due to radiation. He had been sent to change the timeline to prevent the war from happening. But then he could not return to his own time, and has been wandering through time as a ghost for ages. He now wants to change the timeline back, and threatens violence to Svetz if he does not cooperate. But will this wipe out Svetz's own timeline?

http://alanchick.info/page6.html

The Time Line created by Dr. Nathaniel Reynolds a.k.a. "The Grim Reaper" is one where an inbred moron of a Secretary General of the UN rules over an Earth so polluted that the only macro animal species are the killer ape humans and their loyal dog friends...... Svetz has one.......
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Do Turkish Cypriot Settlers Care About the UN/Liquid Barley.

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
(3) I am not the only supporter of Israel who wants to cut a deal, but YOU are not helping much:

I live in Ottawa, pal. Clean up your own country. What I can do is vote against my Likud-coddling PM, and I was going to do that anyway for other reasons.


What the genuflect do I have to do with Hamas?



You keep saying that you don't care about my "opinions" of Hamas and that you have nothing to do with the situation in this war, but you are indirectly contributing to the mess because you are only repeating the exaggerated propaganda that Israel is the cause of the situation
Israel is the cause of the situation. Its not like Hamas pre-dates Israel. That isn't a justification of Hamas, just like the existence of Hamas doesn't justify every action taken by Israel. Its your blanket excuse for everything.



As I clarified above in no uncertain terms, the ultra-Orthodox wing of Israel (and perhaps Jews in general) have much higher birth rate, and their determination is such that they fear death even less than the Arab and Iranian Jihadists.
Its not in the interest of Israel to reduce this to a war of attrition. Spengler lives in a fantasy land where 16 million Israeli Jews are going to out-breed the entire Arab and Persian world. I don't think you want want to live in a fantasy world.


The ludicrous idea that Israel will crack under pressure once Americans stop supporting Israel, can only lead to more miscalculations by the Arab world.
Thinking that they can survive long-term with their present bellicose policies without US aid would be yet another Israeli miscalculation.



As for your exaggerated opinions about the Gaza blockade, wheat and medicine were cut only due to temporary irregularities, not due to a systematic plan by Israel to starve Gaza.
Oh cool. I'm sure anybody directly effected by a lack of wheat or medicine will understand.


The UN Report that you and Erdogan despise said that the Israeli blockage of Gaza is LEGAL
Now Israelis care about what the UN thinks?

Thank you for your post, Ibrahim.
Now Israelis care about what the UN thinks?
Well the Arabs didn't care much about what the UN thought in 1948.......... Did they?.............

Though it would have probably been better for them if they had.... :twisted:

For that matter how much do Turkey or Turkish Cypriot Settlers :twisted: :lol: care about what the UN thinks about Cyprus......
At the same time, around 50,000 Turkish Cypriots moved to the areas under the control of the Turkish Forces and settled in the properties of the displaced Greek Cypriots.
Around 150,000 settlers from Turkey are believed to be living in the north in violation of the Geneva Convention and various UN resolutions.[62]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus#Contemporary_era

AFIACT.... NOT that Much :lol: :lol: :lol:

And despite my liking for the Ancient Greeks and Modern Greek Food, I don't blame the Turks or the Israelis that much........
Better to stay alive than let some Genocidal Geek :wink: oop I mean Greek or Arab murderous Killer Ape kill you because the UN favors them.......


Note: Possible solution to the wheat problem..... Send about 3 times as much barley but in liquid form ;) :twisted: :lol:

Liquid Bread at 0:55........

bc01wOKugfs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc01wOKugfs
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:

Israel is the cause of the situation. Its not like Hamas pre-dates Israel. That isn't a justification of Hamas, just like the existence of Hamas doesn't justify every action taken by Israel. Its your blanket excuse for everything.




Its not in the interest of Israel to reduce this to a war of attrition.


Thinking that they can survive long-term with their present bellicose policies without US aid would be yet another Israeli miscalculation.




The UN Report that you and Erdogan despise said that the Israeli blockage of Gaza is LEGAL
Now Israelis care about what the UN thinks?

MY OBJECTION IS NOT AGAINST YOUR VIEW ABOUT WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, MY ONLY QUESTION IN THIS MESSAGE IS YOUR LOGIC ABOUT WHAT ISRAEL WILL GAIN OR LOSE BY BEING NICER:

It seems to me that what you mean by "Israel is the cause of the situation", or to be more specific, what you mean by the word "situation", is the UN decision in 1947 to create Israel. You can argue that the UN decision was immoral and even illegal in your opinion, but UN already created Israel in 1947, and so far the UN has not reversed its decision to recognize the 1947 borders of Israel.

The whole foundation of Hamas is based on the ideology of resisting the existence of Israel, not just a border adjustment. Even for Hamas, the Gaza blockage is a secondary issue compared to Hamas' demand that Israel is to be dismantled 100 %.

Thus, when you say that Israel is the cause of the situation, you really mean unequivocally that Israel's existence in any form is the cause of the situation, since we all agree that the constitution of Hamas unequivocally says that they will never recognize Israel in any form.

But if Israel's existence is the cause of the problem, and if the demands of the majority of Palestinians currently represented by Hamas (that Israel will not be recognized by them) remain inflexible, then there is no reason for you to say that the long term existence of Israel will not be possible unless Israel behaves better.This is because even if Israel compromises by giving up some more land and lifting the blockade of Gaza, Hamas makes it no secret that even if Israel lifts the blockade any truce will be just another opportunity to regroup for Hamas to attack from a strategically more advantageous situation and they will never recognize Israel in any form.

Thus the war of attrition that you think is against the interests of Israel, is ALREADY in progress now. Nobody thinks that this is not the case. Maybe Israel will lose this war, but there is nothing new about the existence of the war of attrition. And since Israel knows that the war of attrition already exists and that the odds are really stacked against Israel anyway, Israel might as well fight as well as it can, since the Arab world already decreed that the only reason Israel still exists is because Israel is currently able to defend itself.

I did not claim that Israel will win the next war after the US abandons Israel. I only said that Israelis will not immigrate to New York, and they will fight to the death. Ironically, if the Palestinians were to agree on a compromise that gives Israel at least half of the 1947 borders, then many Israelis might immigrate to other countries, but when Palestinian Muslim majority says that they won't give equality to even to the descendants of the Ottoman Jews who are probably about 100,000 now, then this would enrage even the most moderate Israelis, and that's why even losers like me would stay and fight to the death. This means that the Israelis have nothing to gain (in terms of their future survival) by compromising. Even the dismantling of the illegal Jewish settlements and unilateral withdrawal to the 1947 borders, not to mention the lifting of the Gaza blockade will only be another step for Palestinians to attack again from a better strategic position.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:

Israel is the cause of the situation. Its not like Hamas pre-dates Israel. That isn't a justification of Hamas, just like the existence of Hamas doesn't justify every action taken by Israel. Its your blanket excuse for everything.




Its not in the interest of Israel to reduce this to a war of attrition.


Thinking that they can survive long-term with their present bellicose policies without US aid would be yet another Israeli miscalculation.




The UN Report that you and Erdogan despise said that the Israeli blockage of Gaza is LEGAL
Now Israelis care about what the UN thinks?

MY OBJECTION IS NOT AGAINST YOUR VIEW ABOUT WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, MY ONLY QUESTION IN THIS MESSAGE IS YOUR LOGIC ABOUT WHAT ISRAEL WILL GAIN OR LOSE BY BEING NICER:
Bullshit, you were telling me I had to convince Hamas of this or that.
It seems to me that what you mean by "Israel is the cause of the situation", or to be more specific, what you mean by the word "situation", is the UN decision in 1947 to create Israel. You can argue that the UN decision was immoral and even illegal in your opinion, but UN already created Israel in 1947, and so far the UN has not reversed its decision to recognize the 1947 borders of Israel.

The whole foundation of Hamas is based on the ideology of resisting the existence of Israel
That's what I'm talking about. The conflict with Hamas, indeed Hamas itself, was created by Israel. The popularity of Hamas is also an Israeli product, as Hamas gained most of its popular support by providing social services that the Israelis deny the Palestinian population.


Thus, when you say that Israel is the cause of the situation, you really mean unequivocally that Israel's existence in any form is the cause of the situation, since we all agree that the constitution of Hamas unequivocally says that they will never recognize Israel in any form.


Yes, Israel's existence and conduct cause the situation. That doesn't mean that Israel shouldn't exist, but how else can the situation honestly be described?



But if Israel's existence is the cause of the problem, and if the demands of the majority of Palestinians currently represented by Hamas (that Israel will not be recognized by them) remain inflexible, then there is no reason for you to say that the long term existence of Israel will not be possible unless Israel behaves better.This is because even if Israel compromises by giving up some more land and lifting the blockade of Gaza, Hamas makes it no secret that even if Israel lifts the blockade any truce will be just another opportunity to regroup for Hamas to attack from a strategically more advantageous situation and they will never recognize Israel in any form.


Israeli theft and brutality in the creation of the state of Israel is the grounds for general Palestinian resentment, but the brutality and stupidity of Israeli military occupation and the tacit government support of the Settlers today allows more extreme forms of opposition to exist. Israel behaving in a humane manner would at least make an agreement possible, and reduce support for Hamas or groups like Hamas. If Israel wants to continue policies that have failed since 1988 at least then I fail to see how that will improve anything. All you are doing is making demands of the Palestinians, whose land you already stole and continue to steal. What are the odds that this is going to work?




Thus the war of attrition that you think is against the interests of Israel, is ALREADY in progress now. Nobody thinks that this is not the case. Maybe Israel will lose this war, but there is nothing new about the existence of the war of attrition.


By all means bank on whatever strategy you think is best.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Parodite »

Juden hassen Araber. Araber hassen Juden. Es bedeutet nur, sie sollten nicht versuchen zusammen zu leben in einem Land.

Der Rest ist nutzlos Kommentare während der After-Party. Nur kleine Kinder beschäftigen sich mit moralischen Fragen die zu spät gestellt werden.

(Jews hate Arabs. Arabs hate Jews. It just means they should not try live together in one country.

The rest is useless commentary during the after party. Only small children busy themselves with moral questions that are asked too late.)
Deep down I'm very superficial
Jnalum Persicum

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

Parodite wrote:.

Juden hassen Araber. Araber hassen Juden. Es bedeutet nur, sie sollten nicht versuchen zusammen zu leben in einem Land.

Der Rest ist nutzlos Kommentare während der After-Party. Nur kleine Kinder beschäftigen sich mit moralischen Fragen die zu spät gestellt werden.

(Jews hate Arabs. Arabs hate Jews. It just means they should not try live together in one country.

The rest is useless commentary during the after party. Only small children busy themselves with moral questions that are asked too late.)

.

Was soll das Blödsinn ? ? ?

Lass das Unsinn


.
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Thank You for the Template.... Stolen Lands.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:

Israel is the cause of the situation. Its not like Hamas pre-dates Israel. That isn't a justification of Hamas, just like the existence of Hamas doesn't justify every action taken by Israel. Its your blanket excuse for everything.




Its not in the interest of Israel to reduce this to a war of attrition.


Thinking that they can survive long-term with their present bellicose policies without US aid would be yet another Israeli miscalculation.




The UN Report that you and Erdogan despise said that the Israeli blockage of Gaza is LEGAL
Now Israelis care about what the UN thinks?

MY OBJECTION IS NOT AGAINST YOUR VIEW ABOUT WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG, MY ONLY QUESTION IN THIS MESSAGE IS YOUR LOGIC ABOUT WHAT ISRAEL WILL GAIN OR LOSE BY BEING NICER:
Bullshit, you were telling me I had to convince Hamas of this or that.
It seems to me that what you mean by "Israel is the cause of the situation", or to be more specific, what you mean by the word "situation", is the UN decision in 1947 to create Israel. You can argue that the UN decision was immoral and even illegal in your opinion, but UN already created Israel in 1947, and so far the UN has not reversed its decision to recognize the 1947 borders of Israel.

The whole foundation of Hamas is based on the ideology of resisting the existence of Israel
That's what I'm talking about. The conflict with Hamas, indeed Hamas itself, was created by Israel. The popularity of Hamas is also an Israeli product, as Hamas gained most of its popular support by providing social services that the Israelis deny the Palestinian population.


Thus, when you say that Israel is the cause of the situation, you really mean unequivocally that Israel's existence in any form is the cause of the situation, since we all agree that the constitution of Hamas unequivocally says that they will never recognize Israel in any form.


Yes, Israel's existence and conduct cause the situation. That doesn't mean that Israel shouldn't exist, but how else can the situation honestly be described?



But if Israel's existence is the cause of the problem, and if the demands of the majority of Palestinians currently represented by Hamas (that Israel will not be recognized by them) remain inflexible, then there is no reason for you to say that the long term existence of Israel will not be possible unless Israel behaves better.This is because even if Israel compromises by giving up some more land and lifting the blockade of Gaza, Hamas makes it no secret that even if Israel lifts the blockade any truce will be just another opportunity to regroup for Hamas to attack from a strategically more advantageous situation and they will never recognize Israel in any form.


Israeli theft and brutality in the creation of the state of Israel is the grounds for general Palestinian resentment, but the brutality and stupidity of Israeli military occupation and the tacit government support of the Settlers today allows more extreme forms of opposition to exist. Israel behaving in a humane manner would at least make an agreement possible, and reduce support for Hamas or groups like Hamas. If Israel wants to continue policies that have failed since 1988 at least then I fail to see how that will improve anything. All you are doing is making demands of the Palestinians, whose land you already stole and continue to steal. What are the odds that this is going to work?




Thus the war of attrition that you think is against the interests of Israel, is ALREADY in progress now. Nobody thinks that this is not the case. Maybe Israel will lose this war, but there is nothing new about the existence of the war of attrition.


By all means bank on whatever strategy you think is best.


Thank you Very Much for your post.

Israeli theft and brutality in the creation of the state of Israel is the grounds for general Palestinian resentment, but the brutality and stupidity of Israeli military occupation and the tacit government support of the Settlers today allows more extreme forms of opposition to exist. Israel behaving in a humane manner would at least make an agreement possible, and reduce support for Hamas or groups like Hamas. If Israel wants to continue policies that have failed since 1988 at least then I fail to see how that will improve anything. All you are doing is making demands of the Palestinians, whose land you already stole and continue to steal. What are the odds that this is going to work?


Thank you also for the template above......

Muslim theft and brutality in the creation of the state of Dar Al-Islam and the Late Unlamented Caliphate is the grounds for general non Muslim resentment, but the brutality and stupidity of Salafis and Ghalazi Sufis and Similar Strict Slimeball Muslim's military occupation of territories outside the Arabian Peninsula and the tacit and explict government support of Muslim Saboteurs and Invaders in the West and Settlers in places like Cyprus today may allow more extreme forms of opposition to exist/activate. Muslims behaving in a humane manner when they had the upper hand might at least made an coexistence theoretically possible, and reduce support for Jacksonian policies like the Milo Doctrine (a.k.a Break & Leave. Repeat & Increase as Need), people like Netanyahu or groups like Likud. If Islam wants to continue policies that have failed since 732 at least then I fail to see how it will improve anything. All Muslims are doing is making demands of the non Muslims, whose land they already stole and continue to steal as in Sudan, suicide bomb Churches as in Nigeria and behead infidels whenever and wherever they think they can get away with it be it Thailand or Texas.[/i]

As Mr. Perfect would say.......... "Fixed" ;)

What are the odds that this is going to work?


Very Good Question..........

Probably not well for anybody

Probably will be a big factor in making much of Earth effectively uninhabitable.....

Unless we keep being lucky with Nuclear Russian Roulette even though we aren't playing with Russians as much as we used to ;) :roll: ......


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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Violins in the Street.......

Post by Hans Bulvai »

monster_gardener wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
... exaggerated opinions about the Gaza blockade...

gazaviolin.jpg
gazatambourine.jpg
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Hans.

How else can Violins in the Streets be Stopped ;) oops I mean violence be stopped!! :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:


But OK....... I'm VERY Willing to support the import of violins and other musical instruments that cannot be converted easily to ranged weapons to Gaza providing the Israelis & some more or less honest brokers get to inspect the imports to make sure it is a violin in the violin case and that there isn't other contraband inside the violin.

I'm even willing to call the Israeli Embassy to express this view....... NOT JOKING.....
Go ahead and call Monster. I am sure being the largest recipient of American aid they will take to heart what you have to say and may even consider it. Just ask Rachel Corey's parents about the justice they received.

But this is not about some bogus claim to terrorism. There is no reason whatsoever why school children should not be allowed musical instruments unless you want to push them into despair. And we know what that yields. The best part of the whole thing though, there are two entities in that sphere that do not allow music. The Taliban and Israel.
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Will Call. Violins as Ranged WeaponsRe:Violins in the Street

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
... exaggerated opinions about the Gaza blockade...

gazaviolin.jpg
gazatambourine.jpg
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Hans.

How else can Violins in the Streets be Stopped ;) oops I mean violence be stopped!! :twisted: :lol: :lol: :lol:


But OK....... I'm VERY Willing to support the import of violins and other musical instruments that cannot be converted easily to ranged weapons to Gaza providing the Israelis & some more or less honest brokers get to inspect the imports to make sure it is a violin in the violin case and that there isn't other contraband inside the violin.

I'm even willing to call the Israeli Embassy to express this view....... NOT JOKING.....
Go ahead and call Monster. I am sure being the largest recipient of American aid they will take to heart what you have to say and may even consider it. Just ask Rachel Corey's parents about the justice they received.

But this is not about some bogus claim to terrorism. There is no reason whatsoever why school children should not be allowed musical instruments unless you want to push them into despair. And we know what that yields. The best part of the whole thing though, there are two entities in that sphere that do not allow music. The Taliban and Israel.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Hans.

Go ahead and call Monster.
Will do. Will call.
I am sure being the largest recipient of American aid they will take to heart what you have to say and may even consider it.
Maybe.... Hopefully...... Pray........ Suspect we are goint to be dealing with bureaucracy in addition to everything else.......
May have to ask for the help of St. Sempo........**

Trouble is I too am a Depraved Sinful Killer Ape.......*

May have already figured out how to turn a violin into a quite deadly ranged weapon in addition to multiple melee weapons :roll:

That is how some Chaotic Ego Monkey Minds work........*

My sympathy to Rachel Corrie's parents but AIUI unless she was angling for martyrdom as St. Pancake ;) :twisted: :roll: she died the death of a fool...... Not smart to get in Front of things like Bulldozers..... Should have realized she was a Killer Ape & was dealing with other Killer Apes...
There is no reason whatsoever why school children should not be allowed musical instruments unless you want to push them into despair.
Largely agree with qualifiers as above - that the musical instruments be used as musical instruments......
The best part of the whole thing though, there are two entities in that sphere that do not allow music. The Taliban and Israel.
A couple of nuances...... AIUI Israel does not prohibit music even inGaza..... Just import of Musical Instruments.....

And as I understand it, the prohibition of Music may go a bit further than just the Tallywackers...

IIRC some Imams also prohibit many/most/all forms of music though without a state backing them only DIY ;) Cartoon :twisted: Violence should be possible.........

*Or a chaotic pig with a rake........ ;) :roll:

**Useful for Breaking of Bureaucratic Barriers......
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TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:



It seems to me that what you mean by "Israel is the cause of the situation", or to be more specific, what you mean by the word "situation", is the UN decision in 1947 to create Israel. You can argue that the UN decision was immoral and even illegal in your opinion, but UN already created Israel in 1947, and so far the UN has not reversed its decision to recognize the 1947 borders of Israel.

The whole foundation of Hamas is based on the ideology of resisting the existence of Israel
That's what I'm talking about. The conflict with Hamas, indeed Hamas itself, was created by Israel. The popularity of Hamas is also an Israeli product, as Hamas gained most of its popular support by providing social services that the Israelis deny the Palestinian population.


Thus, when you say that Israel is the cause of the situation, you really mean unequivocally that Israel's existence in any form is the cause of the situation, since we all agree that the constitution of Hamas unequivocally says that they will never recognize Israel in any form.


Yes, Israel's existence and conduct cause the situation. That doesn't mean that Israel shouldn't exist, but how else can the situation honestly be described?



But if Israel's existence is the cause of the problem, and if the demands of the majority of Palestinians currently represented by Hamas (that Israel will not be recognized by them) remain inflexible, then there is no reason for you to say that the long term existence of Israel will not be possible unless Israel behaves better.This is because even if Israel compromises by giving up some more land and lifting the blockade of Gaza, Hamas makes it no secret that even if Israel lifts the blockade any truce will be just another opportunity to regroup for Hamas to attack from a strategically more advantageous situation and they will never recognize Israel in any form.


Israeli theft and brutality in the creation of the state of Israel is the grounds for general Palestinian resentment, but the brutality and stupidity of Israeli military occupation and the tacit government support of the Settlers today allows more extreme forms of opposition to exist. Israel behaving in a humane manner would at least make an agreement possible, and reduce support for Hamas or groups like Hamas. If Israel wants to continue policies that have failed since 1988 at least then I fail to see how that will improve anything. All you are doing is making demands of the Palestinians, whose land you already stole and continue to steal. What are the odds that this is going to work?




Thus the war of attrition that you think is against the interests of Israel, is ALREADY in progress now. Nobody thinks that this is not the case. Maybe Israel will lose this war, but there is nothing new about the existence of the war of attrition.


By all means bank on whatever strategy you think is best.
[Emphasis added by TurkishJew]

You say that Israel's existence is the cause of the situation but that you don't mean that Israel should not exist.And then you say "how else the situation can be honestly described?" In that case, if you think that Israel's creation is the primary cause of the situation, then you might as well say that Israel has no right to exist and that UN should officially start a referendum to dismantle Israel, why not? (The occupation of West Bank and the Jewish settlements, etc, are secondary compared to the main objection of Hamas to the existence of Israel.)

But from another perspective, I would add that Israel's existence is not the only primary cause of the situation. The decision of Palestinians to reject the UN Partition Plan of 1947, is also the primary cause of the situation. (This is because the UN was the highest legal authority after World War II, even though we can argue that the UN is not perfectly fair.) If you disagree, then you should then openly say that you want to reverse the UN Partition Plan which is illegal in your opinion.

And since you mentioned "the strategies Israel should consider to survive", I would pull back the settlers, but UNTIL the majority of Palestinians recognize the 1947 UN Partition Plan, I would not end the military blockade of Gaza and West Bank. From a purely Machiavellian and evil point of view, if you want the entire Muslim Palestinian population to get killed, then you should convince the Israelis to unilaterally end the blockade of Gaza and West Bank, so that the Palestinians get enough deadly weapons because even if the Arab world does finally manage to destroy Israel, there will not be any Muslim Palestinians left in that scale of war. And since this is not what you want, you should agree that Israel should maintain the military blockade of Gaza and West Bank until Palestinians agree to recognize Israel's right to exist in some form.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:You say that Israel's existence is the cause of the situation but that you don't mean that Israel should not exist.
Yup, pretty straight forward.

And then you say "how else the situation can be honestly described?" In that case, if you think that Israel's creation is the primary cause of the situation, then you might as well say that Israel has no right to exist
That does not follow, and that's why I didn't say that.


But from another perspective, I would add that Israel's existence is not the only primary cause of the situation. The decision of Palestinians to reject the UN Partition Plan of 1947, is also the primary cause of the situation.


There wouldn't have been a 1947 plan to reject if Israel hasn't stolen all their land in the first place.

And since you mentioned "the strategies Israel should consider to survive", I would pull back the settlers, but UNTIL the majority of Palestinians recognize the 1947 UN Partition Plan, I would not end the military blockade of Gaza and West Bank.


Good luck with that.
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monster_gardener
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Suspect Have Gotten All the Approval You Are Going to Get...

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:You say that Israel's existence is the cause of the situation but that you don't mean that Israel should not exist.
Yup, pretty straight forward.

And then you say "how else the situation can be honestly described?" In that case, if you think that Israel's creation is the primary cause of the situation, then you might as well say that Israel has no right to exist
That does not follow, and that's why I didn't say that.


But from another perspective, I would add that Israel's existence is not the only primary cause of the situation. The decision of Palestinians to reject the UN Partition Plan of 1947, is also the primary cause of the situation.


There wouldn't have been a 1947 plan to reject if Israel hasn't stolen all their land in the first place.

And since you mentioned "the strategies Israel should consider to survive", I would pull back the settlers, but UNTIL the majority of Palestinians recognize the 1947 UN Partition Plan, I would not end the military blockade of Gaza and West Bank.


Good luck with that.

Thank You Very Much for your posts, Ibrahim & Hal the Turkish Jew.......

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:You say that Israel's existence is the cause of the situation but that you don't mean that Israel should not exist.
Yup, pretty straight forward.
IMVHO it sounds like you have gotten about all the help & "approval" you are going to get from Ibrahim the Turk even going to the extreme that you are willing to go, probably indefensible 1947 borders, and Ibrahim feels that even that was unjust to the Arabs.......

There wouldn't have been a 1947 plan to reject if Israel hasn't stolen all their land in the first place.
Not true.... IIRC Jews did buy land from landowners until the Arabs started agitating against it..........
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