Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
The settlers are still a minority in Israel, and so far only 6 % of West Bank is stolen by settlers, and thus they can be pulled back just like Ariel Sharon (the conservative Israeli leader) pulled back the settlements in Gaza.

As for Israel rewarding collaborators, neither the Circassians nor the Druze are Palestinians. They are not even Arabs. So it is hard to call them collaborators.

But after all these digressions which are my fault, let me remind you that the main point of this thread is the Original Palestinian Jews. The statistics indicate that taking into account the increase in population since the 19th century, there must be close to 100,000 original Palestinian Jews in Israel, who cannot be accused of being outsiders. The point of this thread was to establish some legitimacy for this group. Just in case there is a one-state solution with a Muslim Palestinian majority state that governs all the region, logic and morality dictates that just like the Muslim Palestinians deserve equality, this group of Palestinian Jews will also have the right to fight for equality as much as Palestinians strive for equality. My point was that just in case equality is not given to local Palestinian Jews after the creation of a Palestinian Muslim majority state, then the other possibility would be an armed revolt of the Palestinian Jews, very much like Hamas, given that even tiny city states like Vatican exist as successful independent countries with their own passports and laws. Usually the armed revolt of small minorities is crushed, but sometimes it succeeds and ultimately this revolt can lead to legitimacy, it can even be called Israel II. You keep saying that a one-state solution for the greater Palestine where Jews would be minority subjects is just a hypothesis from my part, and you are correct about the fact that this was a hypothesis, but YOU were also saying: "Why should the Palestinians give up the fight that will lead to their victory to get their land?" Actually, their "victory" would be the materialization of that hypothesis of mine! Actually I do agree that the Palestinians (the Muslim majority) can and should get their land, but the problem is that some of the land is also Jewish-Palestinian, so when the Muslim Palestinians get their land, their land should not be all the land. The whole argument started when you said that all of Israel in any form is illegitimate, and that even the small minority cannot declare independence in their enclaves, since in your view the whole region belongs to the majority Palestinians and that the Jewish Palestinians who live in their own enclaves must be considered the subjects of the majority rule. This sounds great, except that just in case the majority votes to discriminate against the minority, the minority can sometimes legitimately fight for secession and independence. So one thing leads to another. Nothing is so simple.

Another factor is that during World War II, in addition to Eurpean Jews who were coming to Palestine as refugees, many non-local Arabs were also moving to Palestine from other parts of the Arab World. I will find that article that displays the statistics I am talking about, I temporarily cannot find it again, but if my memory serves, the Arab Muslim population of Palestine during World War II, increased by at least 50 % due to the migration of newcomers from other Arab countries at that time. And if these statistics are correct, then at least half of the current 5 million Palestinians can also be considered outsiders by your reasoning. But because I try to be a nice guy and I am not too avaricious, I never insisted in that those outsider Palestinians are not real legitimate Palestinians, the way you insisted that even the Mizrahi Jews of Israel don't belong there, I just wanted to cut a deal and shrink Israel to borders even smaller than the 1949 boundaries. But you still say that all of Israel under any form is illegitimate, even in the enclaves the ancient 100,000 Ottoman Jews live.

And formerly I did agree with you when you said that since the Mizrahi Jews live Israel as full citizens they should not ask for any compensation from the other Arab countries such as Egpt, Syria, Iraq, Libya etc for the looting of their property etc. But if the Mizrahi Jews are forced to leave Israel after the Palestinian "victory" materializes, then this might cause the Mizrahi Jews to go back to Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc, with the intention of taking a revenge of epic proportions not seen in recorded history, since at that time their previous claims may legitimately be revived. So as you can see, your simplistic arguments overlook the fact that everything is interconnected in this world.

Hence, if Palestinians do not recognize the legitimacy of a smaller Israel , in some form, at least in principle, then even a two-state solution will only be a short term truce to prepare for the next war. Thus unless there is compromise from both sides in Palestine, there will be no two-state solution or even a one-state solution, there will only be a zero-world solution.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
The settlers are still a minority in Israel, and so far only 6 % of West Bank is stolen by settlers, and thus they can be pulled back just like Ariel Sharon (the conservative Israeli leader) pulled back the settlements in Gaza.
Except the government isn't doing anything to curtail them, let alone force them to withdraw. They are tacitly government-supported, especially since the IDF sides with them in altercations which the instigate.


As for Israel rewarding collaborators, neither the Circassians nor the Druze are Palestinians. They are not even Arabs. So it is hard to call them collaborators.
You are the one telling me that they aided and supported Israel and Israel treats them better (near-equals!) as a result. That is the definition of collaboration.


But after all these digressions which are my fault, let me remind you that the main point of this thread is the Original Palestinian Jews. The statistics indicate that taking into account the increase in population since the 19th century, there must be close to 100,000 original Palestinian Jews in Israel, who cannot be accused of being outsiders.


Neat. 100,000 Palestinian Jews compared to 4 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
The settlers are still a minority in Israel, and so far only 6 % of West Bank is stolen by settlers, and thus they can be pulled back just like Ariel Sharon (the conservative Israeli leader) pulled back the settlements in Gaza.
Except the government isn't doing anything to curtail them, let alone force them to withdraw. They are tacitly government-supported, especially since the IDF sides with them in altercations which the instigate.


As for Israel rewarding collaborators, neither the Circassians nor the Druze are Palestinians. They are not even Arabs. So it is hard to call them collaborators.
You are the one telling me that they aided and supported Israel and Israel treats them better (near-equals!) as a result. That is the definition of collaboration.


But after all these digressions which are my fault, let me remind you that the main point of this thread is the Original Palestinian Jews. The statistics indicate that taking into account the increase in population since the 19th century, there must be close to 100,000 original Palestinian Jews in Israel, who cannot be accused of being outsiders.


Neat. 100,000 Palestinian Jews compared to 4 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians.


You certainly haven't used the word collaboration with one of its positive meanings here. Computer programmers and weather specialists can collaborate to write a software package that can predict the amount of rain the farmers will see in a few weeks, and this is a positive definition of collaboration. But in this context, it appears that you have used the word collaboration to imply a derogatory quality attributed to traitors of the same group who are working with the enemy. But the Circassians and the Druze are not Palestinians, they are not even Arabs. In this case the collaborators are like the German Americans and Scottish Americans in the United States who are working in the same U.S. government. Surely the Black Americans have slightly less equality than the Irish Americans, but Obama is not seen as a "collaborator" who is betraying the Black Americans by working with the whites. Also note carefully that there is severe discrimination against Palestinian refugees in many Arab countries, and they cannot even get citizenship in the brotherly Arab countries that actually tried to fight many wars to destroy Israel.

Actually there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims instead of 4 million, even a higher ratio in comparison to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians. But still, just as you said as a principle that Israel's existence as a separate independent country is not justified in any form even for the smaller enclaves where the 100,000 Palestinian Jews have nearly 100 % majority, I added that if complete equality is not given to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinian majority, then a revolt for the purpose of obtaining independence in the small Jewish Palestinian enclaves can become morally justified, and there is at least a non-zero probability that the small minority ( 100,000 versus 5,000,000 implies just 2 %) might actually win the armed revolt for independence if equality is not given. For instance, if the 100,000 Palestinian Jews become religious zealots, then there is no limit to the intensity of the guerrilla war that they can wage. It might be a Phyrric victory, but at least they would not lose.
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monster_gardener
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Post by monster_gardener »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
The settlers are still a minority in Israel, and so far only 6 % of West Bank is stolen by settlers, and thus they can be pulled back just like Ariel Sharon (the conservative Israeli leader) pulled back the settlements in Gaza.

As for Israel rewarding collaborators, neither the Circassians nor the Druze are Palestinians. They are not even Arabs. So it is hard to call them collaborators.

But after all these digressions which are my fault, let me remind you that the main point of this thread is the Original Palestinian Jews. The statistics indicate that taking into account the increase in population since the 19th century, there must be close to 100,000 original Palestinian Jews in Israel, who cannot be accused of being outsiders. The point of this thread was to establish some legitimacy for this group. Just in case there is a one-state solution with a Muslim Palestinian majority state that governs all the region, logic and morality dictates that just like the Muslim Palestinians deserve equality, this group of Palestinian Jews will also have the right to fight for equality as much as Palestinians strive for equality. My point was that just in case equality is not given to local Palestinian Jews after the creation of a Palestinian Muslim majority state, then the other possibility would be an armed revolt of the Palestinian Jews, very much like Hamas, given that even tiny city states like Vatican exist as successful independent countries with their own passports and laws. Usually the armed revolt of small minorities is crushed, but sometimes it succeeds and ultimately this revolt can lead to legitimacy, it can even be called Israel II. You keep saying that a one-state solution for the greater Palestine where Jews would be minority subjects is just a hypothesis from my part, and you are correct about the fact that this was a hypothesis, but YOU were also saying: "Why should the Palestinians give up the fight that will lead to their victory to get their land?" Actually, their "victory" would be the materialization of that hypothesis of mine! Actually I do agree that the Palestinians (the Muslim majority) can and should get their land, but the problem is that some of the land is also Jewish-Palestinian, so when the Muslim Palestinians get their land, their land should not be all the land. The whole argument started when you said that all of Israel in any form is illegitimate, and that even the small minority cannot declare independence in their enclaves, since in your view the whole region belongs to the majority Palestinians and that the Jewish Palestinians who live in their own enclaves must be considered the subjects of the majority rule. This sounds great, except that just in case the majority votes to discriminate against the minority, the minority can sometimes legitimately fight for secession and independence. So one thing leads to another. Nothing is so simple.

Another factor is that during World War II, in addition to Eurpean Jews who were coming to Palestine as refugees, many non-local Arabs were also moving to Palestine from other parts of the Arab World. I will find that article that displays the statistics I am talking about, I temporarily cannot find it again, but if my memory serves, the Arab Muslim population of Palestine during World War II, increased by at least 50 % due to the migration of newcomers from other Arab countries at that time. And if these statistics are correct, then at least half of the current 5 million Palestinians can also be considered outsiders by your reasoning. But because I try to be a nice guy and I am not too avaricious, I never insisted in that those outsider Palestinians are not real legitimate Palestinians, the way you insisted that even the Mizrahi Jews of Israel don't belong there, I just wanted to cut a deal and shrink Israel to borders even smaller than the 1949 boundaries. But you still say that all of Israel under any form is illegitimate, even in the enclaves the ancient 100,000 Ottoman Jews live.

And formerly I did agree with you when you said that since the Mizrahi Jews live Israel as full citizens they should not ask for any compensation from the other Arab countries such as Egpt, Syria, Iraq, Libya etc for the looting of their property etc. But if the Mizrahi Jews are forced to leave Israel after the Palestinian "victory" materializes, then this might cause the Mizrahi Jews to go back to Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc, with the intention of taking a revenge of epic proportions not seen in recorded history, since at that time their previous claims may legitimately be revived. So as you can see, your simplistic arguments overlook the fact that everything is interconnected in this world.

Hence, if Palestinians do not recognize the legitimacy of a smaller Israel , in some form, at least in principle, then even a two-state solution will only be a short term truce to prepare for the next war. Thus unless there is compromise from both sides in Palestine, there will be no two-state solution or even a one-state solution, there will only be a zero-world solution.
Thank you very much for your post, Hal
Hence, if Palestinians do not recognize the legitimacy of a smaller Israel , in some form, at least in principle, then even a two-state solution will only be a short term truce to prepare for the next war. Thus unless there is compromise from both sides in Palestine, there will be no two-state solution or even a one-state solution, there will only be a zero-world solution
IMVHO Forget about convincing Ibrahim of Israel's legitimacy....... You are highly unlikely to convince Ibrahim of anything other than in his mind, he is right and you are wrong......

AIUI Ibrahim is a lawyer and does not like the military..... even the Turkish military........ And most of Israel was acquired through military means..... Arabs attacking the less than a Persian Pistachio Plantation that the UN gave Israel and by a miracle Israel winning and getting more land...

Sacrasm on/ That is right out you know. if someone tries to kill you, you must return any property you take from them in the struggle and pay for any damage you did to the poor perp. Rule of law you know......
Sarcasm off/

And you have to add in the animus Muslims usually have toward obstinate infidels who refuse to convert........

You are almost certainly right that given the attitudes of many Arabs/Muslims in Palestine & the Mideast in general, even a 2 or 3 state solution is likely to be only a short time truce........ Trying to remember the legal limit for a Hudna/Muslim truce designed to allow them time to build strength to attack you again... Think it is 7 years.. Nope.. I'm wrong ..........HamAss is willing to offer this hell of a 10year hudna to Israel........
In January 2004, senior Hamas leader Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year hudna in return for complete withdrawal from all territories captured in the Six Day War, the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, and the unlimited "right of return" for all Palestnian refugees into Israel. Rantissi said the hudna was limited to ten years and represented a decision by the movement because it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage; the hudna would however not signal a recognition of the state of Israel."[1]However, Hamas later repudiated this offer and claimed they would never recognize Israel or compromise on their position that Israel needed to be dismantled and replaced by a single Palestinian state. The Hamas hudna offers are non-starters with Israel because they demand that Israel cede all of Eastern Jerusalem and accede to the right of return, two elements that have never been accepted by any Israeli governing coalition (whether it was led by liberals or conservatives).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna

Instead of trying to convince a Turkish exile who AFAICT doesn't like Israel, America */Uz, me or you, I would suggest trying to find practical solutions but be resigned that you can't please most people even part of the time unless you do EXACTLY what they want and some of them will despise you for doing that.......

Practical things might include

Finding ways to make it in the economic interest of Palis to cooperate with Israelis........ Remembering the Green Houses of Gaza.....
Also a jointly owned Arab/Jewish Hummus company........

Binding the Druse and similar Muslims and Muslimoids & Friendly Christians to Israel with good treatment... Make sure that Penguins who Pester them are Punished Post Haste and severely ....... What would King David have done to someone who messed with Itai the Gittite, his Palestinian Pal ;) & Protector...... Presuming they survived Itai...... :twisted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itai

Longer term, your idea of a Thorium powered Israeli colony in Antarctica has merit.......
Athens tried similar colonization in the Med and if it had been a little more reasonable it might have worked.......

IMVHO an appropriate song..........

fxdiraVxwkI


*Thinks our countries are "dumps"
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
The settlers are still a minority in Israel, and so far only 6 % of West Bank is stolen by settlers, and thus they can be pulled back just like Ariel Sharon (the conservative Israeli leader) pulled back the settlements in Gaza.
Except the government isn't doing anything to curtail them, let alone force them to withdraw. They are tacitly government-supported, especially since the IDF sides with them in altercations which the instigate.


As for Israel rewarding collaborators, neither the Circassians nor the Druze are Palestinians. They are not even Arabs. So it is hard to call them collaborators.
You are the one telling me that they aided and supported Israel and Israel treats them better (near-equals!) as a result. That is the definition of collaboration.


But after all these digressions which are my fault, let me remind you that the main point of this thread is the Original Palestinian Jews. The statistics indicate that taking into account the increase in population since the 19th century, there must be close to 100,000 original Palestinian Jews in Israel, who cannot be accused of being outsiders.


Neat. 100,000 Palestinian Jews compared to 4 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians.


You certainly haven't used the word collaboration with one of its positive meanings here.
Probably because I don't think its positive. Helping Israel steal land and kill Arabs because you think they will give you a better deal out of it than the Arabs would isn't particularly inspiring.

But in this context, it appears that you have used the word collaboration to imply a derogatory quality attributed to traitors of the same group who are working with the enemy.
By definition they are a different group. This is classic colonialism, we're talking Tutsis and Hutus here.

But the Circassians and the Druze are not Palestinians, they are not even Arabs.
Yup, that's how this works.




Actually there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims instead of 4 million, even a higher ratio in comparison to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians. But still, just as you said as a principle that Israel's existence as a separate independent country is not justified in any form even for the smaller enclaves where the 100,000 Palestinian Jews have nearly 100 % majority, I added that if complete equality is not given to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinian majority, then a revolt for the purpose of obtaining independence in the small Jewish Palestinian enclaves can become morally justified, and there is at least a non-zero probability that the small minority ( 100,000 versus 5,000,000 implies just 2 %) might actually win the armed revolt for independence if equality is not given. For instance, if the 100,000 Palestinian Jews become religious zealots, then there is no limit to the intensity of the guerrilla war that they can wage. It might be a Phyrric victory, but at least they would not lose.
I like how you constantly invent hypothetical scenarios in which the Israeli Jews are the oppressed minority freedom fighters, as opposed to actual reality in which they are the US backed oppressive state. It suggests that you realize how ignoble and morally squalid current Israeli military action is, and need to imagine some very different scenario in which you could actually be proud of Israeli soldiers fighting a guerrilla war for their freedom, instead of kicking a Palestinian woman in the back with a US-pattern army boot.
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monster_gardener
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Your Enemy may be More Your Friend than Your Muslim Bro Is..

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
The settlers are still a minority in Israel, and so far only 6 % of West Bank is stolen by settlers, and thus they can be pulled back just like Ariel Sharon (the conservative Israeli leader) pulled back the settlements in Gaza.
Except the government isn't doing anything to curtail them, let alone force them to withdraw. They are tacitly government-supported, especially since the IDF sides with them in altercations which the instigate.


As for Israel rewarding collaborators, neither the Circassians nor the Druze are Palestinians. They are not even Arabs. So it is hard to call them collaborators.
You are the one telling me that they aided and supported Israel and Israel treats them better (near-equals!) as a result. That is the definition of collaboration.


But after all these digressions which are my fault, let me remind you that the main point of this thread is the Original Palestinian Jews. The statistics indicate that taking into account the increase in population since the 19th century, there must be close to 100,000 original Palestinian Jews in Israel, who cannot be accused of being outsiders.


Neat. 100,000 Palestinian Jews compared to 4 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians.


You certainly haven't used the word collaboration with one of its positive meanings here.
Probably because I don't think its positive. Helping Israel steal land and kill Arabs because you think they will give you a better deal out of it than the Arabs would isn't particularly inspiring.

But in this context, it appears that you have used the word collaboration to imply a derogatory quality attributed to traitors of the same group who are working with the enemy.
By definition they are a different group. This is classic colonialism, we're talking Tutsis and Hutus here.

But the Circassians and the Druze are not Palestinians, they are not even Arabs.
Yup, that's how this works.




Actually there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims instead of 4 million, even a higher ratio in comparison to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians. But still, just as you said as a principle that Israel's existence as a separate independent country is not justified in any form even for the smaller enclaves where the 100,000 Palestinian Jews have nearly 100 % majority, I added that if complete equality is not given to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinian majority, then a revolt for the purpose of obtaining independence in the small Jewish Palestinian enclaves can become morally justified, and there is at least a non-zero probability that the small minority ( 100,000 versus 5,000,000 implies just 2 %) might actually win the armed revolt for independence if equality is not given. For instance, if the 100,000 Palestinian Jews become religious zealots, then there is no limit to the intensity of the guerrilla war that they can wage. It might be a Phyrric victory, but at least they would not lose.
I like how you constantly invent hypothetical scenarios in which the Israeli Jews are the oppressed minority freedom fighters, as opposed to actual reality in which they are the US backed oppressive state. It suggests that you realize how ignoble and morally squalid current Israeli military action is, and need to imagine some very different scenario in which you could actually be proud of Israeli soldiers fighting a guerrilla war for their freedom, instead of kicking a Palestinian woman in the back with a US-pattern army boot.
Thank you for your post, Ibrahim.
Except the government isn't doing anything to curtail them
Wrong....... Decoy police have been Deployed Disguised as Arab Shepherds who Jewish Settlers have attacked and then the Settlers have been arrested .............
Helping Israel steal land and kill Arabs because you think they will give you a better deal out of it than the Arabs would isn't particularly inspiring.
Unless said Arabs/Muslim Fanatics have a history of trying to kill or enslave you etc. ....... Sort of like Tlaxcalans & Spanish against Aztecs....... Or Black Slaves and Seminoles against Southern Slavers.....
I like how you constantly invent hypothetical scenarios in which the Israeli Jews are the oppressed minority freedom fighters,
No need to invent......... That's what they were at first.......... What they might well become again if the Arabs got the upper hand....

Or worse... Look what happened to FATAH when HamAss Hamas got the upper hand... Red Hot Endoscopy :twisted: :evil: was the order of the day..........

FATAH ended up fleeing to Israel and begging for passage to the West Bank.......

Turned out that the Jewish enemy was more of a friend than the Muslim Brothers.......
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Actually there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims instead of 4 million, even a higher ratio in comparison to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians. But still, just as you said as a principle that Israel's existence as a separate independent country is not justified in any form even for the smaller enclaves where the 100,000 Palestinian Jews have nearly 100 % majority, I added that if complete equality is not given to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinian majority, then a revolt for the purpose of obtaining independence in the small Jewish Palestinian enclaves can become morally justified, and there is at least a non-zero probability that the small minority ( 100,000 versus 5,000,000 implies just 2 %) might actually win the armed revolt for independence if equality is not given. For instance, if the 100,000 Palestinian Jews become religious zealots, then there is no limit to the intensity of the guerrilla war that they can wage. It might be a Phyrric victory, but at least they would not lose.
I like how you constantly invent hypothetical scenarios in which the Israeli Jews are the oppressed minority freedom fighters, as opposed to actual reality in which they are the US backed oppressive state. It suggests that you realize how ignoble and morally squalid current Israeli military action is, and need to imagine some very different scenario in which you could actually be proud of Israeli soldiers fighting a guerrilla war for their freedom, instead of kicking a Palestinian woman in the back with a US-pattern army boot.
But it is not so hypothetical since you said that the Muslim Palestinians are fighting for their victory to get back 100 % the land for a Muslim Palestinian country totally dominated by them. It is guaranteed that this victory would give less freedom to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians than the Israelis are giving to the Israeli Palestinians (within the 1967 borders now, not in occupied territories. ) The point being that it is not hypothetical but guaranteed that the one-state Palestinian solution will not be better than for its minorities than the situation in Israel, which, I agree is not perfect. So one way or another, the 100,000 Jews will have legitimacy in their quest for equality, negating your claims that an independent Jewish enclave is illegitimate in any form.

Furthermore, saying that the 1949 borders are illegitimate (and they might be) is also tantamount that the UN is also illegitimate. When the UN created Israel, it actually induced the immigration of a lot more Jews than the refugees who came there during WW II. Now that most Israelis were born in Palestine, if we are going to displace them, let's also note that many boundaries of the Arab countries were also drawn arbitrarily by European powers. I still owe you the other article that I promised, the one that says that during WW II, a lot of non-Palestinian Arabs also migrated to Palestine from other parts of the Arab world, at least 50 % increase in the Palestinian population. But because I try to be a nice guy, I don't say that 50 % of the 5 million Palestinians should have no right to claim any land in Palestine.

Certainly Palestinian women were kicked by misguided Jews, both soldiers and civilians, but this is not as frequent as you portray. As I said, before the current wars intensified after the year 2,000, the opinion polls showed that only 30 % of Israeli Arabs had a negative opinion of Jews.

Also the UN decision to create Israel is not the fault of the new generation of Israeli Jews who were born there. Once the UN gave legality to Israel after 1947, this encouraged Jews to flock to Israel. Reversing the UN decision retroactively, is not impossible, but note that the boundaries of all the Arab countries were drawn very arbitrarily by Western powers also.
Ibrahim
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Actually there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims instead of 4 million, even a higher ratio in comparison to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians. But still, just as you said as a principle that Israel's existence as a separate independent country is not justified in any form even for the smaller enclaves where the 100,000 Palestinian Jews have nearly 100 % majority, I added that if complete equality is not given to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinian majority, then a revolt for the purpose of obtaining independence in the small Jewish Palestinian enclaves can become morally justified, and there is at least a non-zero probability that the small minority ( 100,000 versus 5,000,000 implies just 2 %) might actually win the armed revolt for independence if equality is not given. For instance, if the 100,000 Palestinian Jews become religious zealots, then there is no limit to the intensity of the guerrilla war that they can wage. It might be a Phyrric victory, but at least they would not lose.
I like how you constantly invent hypothetical scenarios in which the Israeli Jews are the oppressed minority freedom fighters, as opposed to actual reality in which they are the US backed oppressive state. It suggests that you realize how ignoble and morally squalid current Israeli military action is, and need to imagine some very different scenario in which you could actually be proud of Israeli soldiers fighting a guerrilla war for their freedom, instead of kicking a Palestinian woman in the back with a US-pattern army boot.
But it is not so hypothetical since you said that the Muslim Palestinians are fighting for their victory to get back 100 % the land for a Muslim Palestinian country totally dominated by them.
That is a lie. I said they are fighting for a Palestinian state, not %100 of all territory that is currently Israeli.


Furthermore, saying that the 1949 borders are illegitimate (and they might be) is also tantamount that the UN is also illegitimate.
The rulings of the UN are of no concern to Israelis today, so why should they then honor and respect a decision or statements they made in the 1940's? Almost the entire international community sides with Palestine (except for, crucially, the US and a few others) but that doesn't influence Israeli policies.


Certainly Palestinian women were kicked by misguided Jews, both soldiers and civilians, but this is not as frequent as you portray. As I said, before the current wars intensified after the year 2,000, the opinion polls showed that only 30 % of Israeli Arabs had a negative opinion of Jews.
Wow, compared to %77 of Israeli Jews under 30 in that study I cited previously.

Also the UN decision to create Israel is not the fault of the new generation of Israeli Jews who were born there.
Nor are the children born in the occupied territories responsible for whatever events Israel continues to use to justify their occupation. That doesn't mean the IDF lets food and medicine land in Gaza. Oh well.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Also the UN decision to create Israel is not the fault of the new generation of Israeli Jews who were born there.
Nor are the children born in the occupied territories responsible for whatever events Israel continues to use to justify their occupation. That doesn't mean the IDF lets food and medicine land in Gaza. Oh well.
Huh?
Isn't Germany still paying for the Holocaust?
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Actually there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims instead of 4 million, even a higher ratio in comparison to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians. But still, just as you said as a principle that Israel's existence as a separate independent country is not justified in any form even for the smaller enclaves where the 100,000 Palestinian Jews have nearly 100 % majority, I added that if complete equality is not given to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinian majority, then a revolt for the purpose of obtaining independence in the small Jewish Palestinian enclaves can become morally justified, and there is at least a non-zero probability that the small minority ( 100,000 versus 5,000,000 implies just 2 %) might actually win the armed revolt for independence if equality is not given. For instance, if the 100,000 Palestinian Jews become religious zealots, then there is no limit to the intensity of the guerrilla war that they can wage. It might be a Phyrric victory, but at least they would not lose.
I like how you constantly invent hypothetical scenarios in which the Israeli Jews are the oppressed minority freedom fighters, as opposed to actual reality in which they are the US backed oppressive state. It suggests that you realize how ignoble and morally squalid current Israeli military action is, and need to imagine some very different scenario in which you could actually be proud of Israeli soldiers fighting a guerrilla war for their freedom, instead of kicking a Palestinian woman in the back with a US-pattern army boot.
But it is not so hypothetical since you said that the Muslim Palestinians are fighting for their victory to get back 100 % the land for a Muslim Palestinian country totally dominated by them.
That is a lie. I said they are fighting for a Palestinian state, not %100 of all territory that is currently Israeli.


Furthermore, saying that the 1949 borders are illegitimate (and they might be) is also tantamount that the UN is also illegitimate.
The rulings of the UN are of no concern to Israelis today, so why should they then honor and respect a decision or statements they made in the 1940's? Almost the entire international community sides with Palestine (except for, crucially, the US and a few others) but that doesn't influence Israeli policies.


Certainly Palestinian women were kicked by misguided Jews, both soldiers and civilians, but this is not as frequent as you portray. As I said, before the current wars intensified after the year 2,000, the opinion polls showed that only 30 % of Israeli Arabs had a negative opinion of Jews.
Wow, compared to %77 of Israeli Jews under 30 in that study I cited previously.

Also the UN decision to create Israel is not the fault of the new generation of Israeli Jews who were born there.
Nor are the children born in the occupied territories responsible for whatever events Israel continues to use to justify their occupation. That doesn't mean the IDF lets food and medicine land in Gaza. Oh well.
What I said is true because you also said that all of Israel is stolen land without exception and that all of it morally belongs to Palestinians. We are not just discussing the legality of the UN decision to give the 1949 borders to Israel, we are also taking into account your own view that even the 1949 borders are not deserved by Israel. Thus in your view, in this discussion, the land that the Palestinians deserve and try to get (in your view) is all of what is in Israel in addition to what is in Gaza and West Bank. The Palestine that they are trying to get, in your view, at least according to your moral views, should include all of the Palestine. Since Palestinians will certainly not give equality to even Ottoman Jews, this collides with the rights of the the Jewish Palestinian subjects who were there from the Ottoman era. My attempt was just to add some refinement to the subject to show that is is not so-clear cut, and that some recognition must be given to the Ottoman Jews who are also Palestinian.

Does your entire international community that sides with the Palestinians also vote for the dismantlement of Israel and the reversal of the UN 1947 decision to create Israel? Or does the international community you are talking about just wants a two-state solution (thus recognizing Israel's right to exist within some borders, in some form)? In which way is your entire international community taking the side of Palestinians? This is my question. So far I have not seen a United Nations movement that supports the dismantlement of Israel while creating a Palestinian country. For the record, I also take the side of Palestinians if they recognize Israel's right to exist in some adjusted borders, however small, even less than the 1947 borders.

Your new studies of 77 % Israeli Jews being against Palestinians, is obviously a new study, the study that I quoted about 30 % Israeli Arabs being against Jews was BEFORE the wars intensified after 2000. You can be sure that currently as many as 77 % of the Israeli Arabs also have negative opinions against Jews.
Ibrahim
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Actually there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims instead of 4 million, even a higher ratio in comparison to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinians. But still, just as you said as a principle that Israel's existence as a separate independent country is not justified in any form even for the smaller enclaves where the 100,000 Palestinian Jews have nearly 100 % majority, I added that if complete equality is not given to the 100,000 Jewish Palestinian majority, then a revolt for the purpose of obtaining independence in the small Jewish Palestinian enclaves can become morally justified, and there is at least a non-zero probability that the small minority ( 100,000 versus 5,000,000 implies just 2 %) might actually win the armed revolt for independence if equality is not given. For instance, if the 100,000 Palestinian Jews become religious zealots, then there is no limit to the intensity of the guerrilla war that they can wage. It might be a Phyrric victory, but at least they would not lose.
I like how you constantly invent hypothetical scenarios in which the Israeli Jews are the oppressed minority freedom fighters, as opposed to actual reality in which they are the US backed oppressive state. It suggests that you realize how ignoble and morally squalid current Israeli military action is, and need to imagine some very different scenario in which you could actually be proud of Israeli soldiers fighting a guerrilla war for their freedom, instead of kicking a Palestinian woman in the back with a US-pattern army boot.
But it is not so hypothetical since you said that the Muslim Palestinians are fighting for their victory to get back 100 % the land for a Muslim Palestinian country totally dominated by them.
That is a lie. I said they are fighting for a Palestinian state, not %100 of all territory that is currently Israeli.


Furthermore, saying that the 1949 borders are illegitimate (and they might be) is also tantamount that the UN is also illegitimate.
The rulings of the UN are of no concern to Israelis today, so why should they then honor and respect a decision or statements they made in the 1940's? Almost the entire international community sides with Palestine (except for, crucially, the US and a few others) but that doesn't influence Israeli policies.


Certainly Palestinian women were kicked by misguided Jews, both soldiers and civilians, but this is not as frequent as you portray. As I said, before the current wars intensified after the year 2,000, the opinion polls showed that only 30 % of Israeli Arabs had a negative opinion of Jews.
Wow, compared to %77 of Israeli Jews under 30 in that study I cited previously.

Also the UN decision to create Israel is not the fault of the new generation of Israeli Jews who were born there.
Nor are the children born in the occupied territories responsible for whatever events Israel continues to use to justify their occupation. That doesn't mean the IDF lets food and medicine land in Gaza. Oh well.
What I said is true because you also said that all of Israel is stolen land without exception and that all of it morally belongs to Palestinians.
I also said that I advocated a two-state solution, many many times.

All of Israel is stolen, but they stole enough of it, and stole it so well, that they will get to keep some portion of what they stole.

We are not just discussing the legality of the UN decision to give the 1949 borders to Israel, we are also taking into account your own view that even the 1949 borders are not deserved by Israel. Thus in your view, in this discussion, the land that the Palestinians deserve and try to get (in your view) is all of what is in Israel in addition to what is in Gaza and West Bank.
I don't think that's going to happen, but yes I have stated that the entirety of Israel is stolen.

Since Palestinians will certainly not give equality to even Ottoman Jews, this collides with the rights of the the Jewish Palestinian subjects who were there from the Ottoman era. My attempt was just to add some refinement to the subject to show that is is not so-clear cut, and that some recognition must be given to the Ottoman Jews who are also Palestinian.
That would be nice, but unlikely. Instead a Jewish state and a Palestinian state are more likely outcomes.

Does your entire international community that sides with the Palestinians also vote for the dismantlement of Israel and the reversal of the UN 1947 decision to create Israel? Or does the international community you are talking about just wants a two-state solution (thus recognizing Israel's right to exist within some borders, in some form)? In which way is your entire international community taking the side of Palestinians? This is my question.
Two-state solution. Most of the world wants a two-state solution.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Also the UN decision to create Israel is not the fault of the new generation of Israeli Jews who were born there.
Nor are the children born in the occupied territories responsible for whatever events Israel continues to use to justify their occupation. That doesn't mean the IDF lets food and medicine land in Gaza. Oh well.
Huh?
Isn't Germany still paying for the Holocaust?

Actually Germany is paying very little now, since most of the Holocaust victims are dead. In any case, Israel forgives Germany not because of the compensation that is paid, but because there is time to forgive everything.

In any case, my whole point in this thread is that BOTH Israel and Palestinians must compromise, or else, instead of a two-state or even a one-state Palestinian solution, there will be a zero-world solution. Saying that not one square inch of Palestine is deserved by Jews is not going to help find a solution, this kind of reasoning is not just impractical, but it is even immoral given that there were a lot of Ottoman Jews who were there even if they are a minority. And if Israel is dismantled, then morally the Arab Jews who were forced to leave Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, etc, would have some rights to get even with these other Arab countries ( I did agree with Ibrahim previously that these Mizrahi Jews from Arab countries who live in Israel should not ask for compensation from Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, etc, since they already have Israeli citizenship, but once Israel is declared 100 illegitimate in the future, then the 2.5 million Mizrahi Jews would have the moral right to fight for their rights in their former homelands.)
Jnalum Persicum

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

TurkishJew wrote:.

In any case, my whole point in this thread is that BOTH Israel and Palestinians must compromise, . .

.


TJ ,

in a nutshell , Middle East has no problem with Hebrew tribe, issue is with European and Russian invaders

They gotto go (back home)


.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Jnalum Persicum wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:.

In any case, my whole point in this thread is that BOTH Israel and Palestinians must compromise, . .

.


TJ ,

in a nutshell , Middle East has no problem with Hebrew tribe, issue is with European and Russian invaders

They gotto go (back home)


.

OK, but note that there are many millions of Middle Eastern immigrants in Europe. People travel all the time. Muslims are still being accepted as immigrants in large numbers to Europe.

But the Arab Middle East does have a problem with those members of the Hebrew tribe who have not yet converted to Islam. For instance, in most of the Arab world, non-Muslim Hebrews historically did not have equal rights.

On the other hand, paradoxically even Muslim Arabs are being intolerant among themselves: many Palestinian refugees who are in other Arab countries are not given citizenship and they are suffering, even though there is plenty of room for them. It is astounding that countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, etc, who volunteered to send their armies to destroy Israel in 1949 supposedly on behalf of the Arab nation, are mistreating the Palestinian refugees they were supposed to be defending against Israel in 1949.

So the situation is more chaotic than you say. Note carefully that during World War II, in addition to European refugees who were coming to Palestine, a lot of Arab refugees from other parts of the Arab world were also coming to Palestine. Perhaps 50 % of the Palestinians are actually the descendants of other Arabs from outside Palestine. but I do not want to tell them to "go home". It is better to make a deal and help each other. Within 100 years as new sources of energy are invented, geographic land will not be so important anymore, you will be able to build an artificial island in the ocean by moving rocks from under the sea.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote: I also said that I advocated a two-state solution, many many times.

All of Israel is stolen, but they stole enough of it, and stole it so well, that they will get to keep some portion of what they stole.

Two-state solution. Most of the world wants a two-state solution.


In any case, many thanks for recommending a two-state solution, especially in view of the fact that perhaps as much as 50 % of the Palestinians also have parents who came from other parts of the Arab world during the chaos of the World War II.

Many other parts of the world are also stolen equally well.


For the record, once again, here is the old map of the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan, which had engendered a two-state solution that gave far more land to the Palestinians, compared to what they would get if Israel returns to the 1967 borders as part of a future two-state solution. The large orange colored region south of Beersheba that the UN Partition Plan gave to Israel, happens to be a desert that looks like the surface of the moon, and relatively few Bedouin groups live there. If there will be a two-state solution in the future, it's too bad the Palestinians did not accept the 1947 plan, as they will have lost the green and lush northern region near the Lebanese border (yellow colored) given to them by the 1947 plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... _Palestine

Image

In any case, if the Palestinians accept a two-state solution in good faith, then all frontiers can become open like the border between Holland and Belgium. At the end of 1999, I had no fear of inviting a Palestinian family to my residence in West Jerusalem (they were residents of East Jerusalem under Israeli control, and instead of Israeli citizenship they had Israeli permanent resident status, similar to the American "green-cards"). Of course they would get back East Jerusalem as part of their official country if there is a two-state solution. In 1999 both the Jewish and Palestinian Arab opinion polls reflected a lot less mistrust.
.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/su ... m-1.471644
Survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews.

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/ ... state.html
apartheid state and support it, according to a poll prepared by “Dialogue Institute,” a non-profit organization related to the “Israeli Democracy Institute” and published by the daily newspaper “Haaretz” on October 23. The poll claims that 59% of the Israeli population believes employment should be preferential for Jews, and half of the Israeli population believes the state should take better care of its Jewish population than its Arab citizens. Moreover, according to the poll 47% of Israelis believe Palestinian citizens of Israel should be transferred to the Palestinian Authority administrated areas, and only 40% oppose it. One third of the Israeli population believes Palestinian citizens should not be allowed to vote in national elections.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Hans Bulvai wrote:Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/su ... m-1.471644
Survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews.

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/ ... state.html
apartheid state and support it, according to a poll prepared by “Dialogue Institute,” a non-profit organization related to the “Israeli Democracy Institute” and published by the daily newspaper “Haaretz” on October 23. The poll claims that 59% of the Israeli population believes employment should be preferential for Jews, and half of the Israeli population believes the state should take better care of its Jewish population than its Arab citizens. Moreover, according to the poll 47% of Israelis believe Palestinian citizens of Israel should be transferred to the Palestinian Authority administrated areas, and only 40% oppose it. One third of the Israeli population believes Palestinian citizens should not be allowed to vote in national elections.
Unfortunately this is all true, but note that Israeli newspapers are the ones reporting and criticizing it. Also, this new negativity was not in Israel in 1999. Already Palestinian Authority voted that a future Palestinian state will be Jew-free. Right now, in most parts of the Arab world there is already a de facto Apartheid system applicable to their non-existent or microscopically small Jewish communities.

A two-state solution is still possible, as in the 1947 UN Partition Plan map a few messages above. Once there is a two-state solution, it will be possible to establish good relations and even make the frontiers as open as the border between Belgium and Holland.

Once again, here the history of Jews who worked together with the Arabs to resist against the Crusaders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... e_Crusades
EXCERPT:
Background

Further information: Crusades
In the First Crusade, flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were attacked by Crusaders, yet many were spared due to the efforts of the Papacy (see German Crusade, 1096). In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France suffered especially. Philip Augustus treated them with exceptional severity during the Third Crusade (1188). The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320.
The attacks were opposed by the local bishops and widely condemned at the time as a violation of the crusades aim, which was not directed against the Jews.[1] However, the perpetrators mostly escaped legal punishment. Also, the social position of the Jews in western Europe distinctly worsened, and legal restrictions increased during and after the crusades. They prepared the way for anti-Jewish legislation of Pope Innocent III. The crusades resulted in centuries of strong feelings of ill will on both sides and hence constitute a turning point in the relationship between Jews and Christians.
[edit]First Crusade

Main article: Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade
[edit]Defending in the Holy Land

The Jews almost single-handedly defended Haifa against the crusaders, holding out in the besieged town for a whole month (June–July 1099) in fierce battles. At this time, a full thousand years after the fall of the Jewish state, there were Jewish communities all over the country. Fifty of them are known and include Jerusalem, Tiberias, Ramleh, Ashkelon, Caesarea, and Gaza.[2][3]
[edit]Massacre of Jerusalem
Jews fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend Jerusalem against the Crusaders.[4] Saint Louis University Professor Thomas Madden, author of A Concise History of the Crusades, claims the "Jewish Defenders" of the city knew the rules of warfare and retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death" since the Crusaders had breached the outer walls.[5] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."[6] One modern-day source even claims the Crusaders "[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing 'Christ We Adore Thee!' with their Crusader crosses held high."[7] However, a contemporary Jewish communication does not corroborate the report that Jews were actually inside of the Synagogue when it was set fire.[8] This letter was discovered among the Cairo Geniza collection in 1975 by historian Shelomo Dov Goitein.[9] Historians believe that it was written just two weeks after the siege, making it "the earliest account on the conquest in any language."[9] However, all sources agree that a synagogue was indeed burned during the siege.
[edit]
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Hans Bulvai »

TurkishJew wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/su ... m-1.471644
Survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews.

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/ ... state.html
apartheid state and support it, according to a poll prepared by “Dialogue Institute,” a non-profit organization related to the “Israeli Democracy Institute” and published by the daily newspaper “Haaretz” on October 23. The poll claims that 59% of the Israeli population believes employment should be preferential for Jews, and half of the Israeli population believes the state should take better care of its Jewish population than its Arab citizens. Moreover, according to the poll 47% of Israelis believe Palestinian citizens of Israel should be transferred to the Palestinian Authority administrated areas, and only 40% oppose it. One third of the Israeli population believes Palestinian citizens should not be allowed to vote in national elections.
Unfortunately this is all true, but note that Israeli newspapers are the ones reporting and criticizing it. Also, this new negativity was not in Israel in 1999. Already Palestinian Authority voted that a future Palestinian state will be Jew-free. Right now, in most parts of the Arab world there is already a de facto Apartheid system applicable to their non-existent or microscopically small Jewish communities.

A two-state solution is still possible, as in the 1947 UN Partition Plan map a few messages above. Once there is a two-state solution, it will be possible to establish good relations and even make the frontiers as open as the border between Belgium and Holland.

Once again, here the history of Jews who worked together with the Arabs to resist against the Crusaders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... e_Crusades
EXCERPT:
Background

Further information: Crusades
In the First Crusade, flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were attacked by Crusaders, yet many were spared due to the efforts of the Papacy (see German Crusade, 1096). In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France suffered especially. Philip Augustus treated them with exceptional severity during the Third Crusade (1188). The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320.
The attacks were opposed by the local bishops and widely condemned at the time as a violation of the crusades aim, which was not directed against the Jews.[1] However, the perpetrators mostly escaped legal punishment. Also, the social position of the Jews in western Europe distinctly worsened, and legal restrictions increased during and after the crusades. They prepared the way for anti-Jewish legislation of Pope Innocent III. The crusades resulted in centuries of strong feelings of ill will on both sides and hence constitute a turning point in the relationship between Jews and Christians.
[edit]First Crusade

Main article: Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade
[edit]Defending in the Holy Land

The Jews almost single-handedly defended Haifa against the crusaders, holding out in the besieged town for a whole month (June–July 1099) in fierce battles. At this time, a full thousand years after the fall of the Jewish state, there were Jewish communities all over the country. Fifty of them are known and include Jerusalem, Tiberias, Ramleh, Ashkelon, Caesarea, and Gaza.[2][3]
[edit]Massacre of Jerusalem
Jews fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend Jerusalem against the Crusaders.[4] Saint Louis University Professor Thomas Madden, author of A Concise History of the Crusades, claims the "Jewish Defenders" of the city knew the rules of warfare and retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death" since the Crusaders had breached the outer walls.[5] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."[6] One modern-day source even claims the Crusaders "[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing 'Christ We Adore Thee!' with their Crusader crosses held high."[7] However, a contemporary Jewish communication does not corroborate the report that Jews were actually inside of the Synagogue when it was set fire.[8] This letter was discovered among the Cairo Geniza collection in 1975 by historian Shelomo Dov Goitein.[9] Historians believe that it was written just two weeks after the siege, making it "the earliest account on the conquest in any language."[9] However, all sources agree that a synagogue was indeed burned during the siege.
[edit]
Not sure you noticed, but Arabs themselves were living under the boots of dictators some who had Israel's blessings (Mubarak, Abdullah). All this talk about Jews and Christians living under the bad Mooslem boogey man is bogus. But are you comparing the Middle East's "only Democracy" to the shiekhdoms and dicktatorshits of the region?

No need to tell me about the history of the Semitic Jews in the Middle East. The Euro Crusaders' Jewish cousins seem like the ones causing the trouble; not the local Jews.

http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Gurions-Scand ... s+scandals
States Iraqi-born Jewish journalist, Naeim Giladi: "I write this book to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism.' I write about it because I was a part of it." Giladi delivers the painful truth about the Zionist rape of Palestine and deliberate planting of anti-Semitism in Iraqi Jewish communities during David Ben-Gurion's political career in order to persuade the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel. The goal of the Zionists was to import raw Jewish labor from the Middle East to plow and plant the newly-vacated lands. Also, the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/su ... m-1.471644
Survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews.

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/ ... state.html
apartheid state and support it, according to a poll prepared by “Dialogue Institute,” a non-profit organization related to the “Israeli Democracy Institute” and published by the daily newspaper “Haaretz” on October 23. The poll claims that 59% of the Israeli population believes employment should be preferential for Jews, and half of the Israeli population believes the state should take better care of its Jewish population than its Arab citizens. Moreover, according to the poll 47% of Israelis believe Palestinian citizens of Israel should be transferred to the Palestinian Authority administrated areas, and only 40% oppose it. One third of the Israeli population believes Palestinian citizens should not be allowed to vote in national elections.
Unfortunately this is all true, but note that Israeli newspapers are the ones reporting and criticizing it. Also, this new negativity was not in Israel in 1999. Already Palestinian Authority voted that a future Palestinian state will be Jew-free. Right now, in most parts of the Arab world there is already a de facto Apartheid system applicable to their non-existent or microscopically small Jewish communities.

A two-state solution is still possible, as in the 1947 UN Partition Plan map a few messages above. Once there is a two-state solution, it will be possible to establish good relations and even make the frontiers as open as the border between Belgium and Holland.

Once again, here the history of Jews who worked together with the Arabs to resist against the Crusaders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... e_Crusades
EXCERPT:
Background

Further information: Crusades
In the First Crusade, flourishing communities on the Rhine and the Danube were attacked by Crusaders, yet many were spared due to the efforts of the Papacy (see German Crusade, 1096). In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in France suffered especially. Philip Augustus treated them with exceptional severity during the Third Crusade (1188). The Jews were also subjected to attacks by the Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320.
The attacks were opposed by the local bishops and widely condemned at the time as a violation of the crusades aim, which was not directed against the Jews.[1] However, the perpetrators mostly escaped legal punishment. Also, the social position of the Jews in western Europe distinctly worsened, and legal restrictions increased during and after the crusades. They prepared the way for anti-Jewish legislation of Pope Innocent III. The crusades resulted in centuries of strong feelings of ill will on both sides and hence constitute a turning point in the relationship between Jews and Christians.
[edit]First Crusade

Main article: Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade
[edit]Defending in the Holy Land

The Jews almost single-handedly defended Haifa against the crusaders, holding out in the besieged town for a whole month (June–July 1099) in fierce battles. At this time, a full thousand years after the fall of the Jewish state, there were Jewish communities all over the country. Fifty of them are known and include Jerusalem, Tiberias, Ramleh, Ashkelon, Caesarea, and Gaza.[2][3]
[edit]Massacre of Jerusalem
Jews fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend Jerusalem against the Crusaders.[4] Saint Louis University Professor Thomas Madden, author of A Concise History of the Crusades, claims the "Jewish Defenders" of the city knew the rules of warfare and retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death" since the Crusaders had breached the outer walls.[5] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."[6] One modern-day source even claims the Crusaders "[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing 'Christ We Adore Thee!' with their Crusader crosses held high."[7] However, a contemporary Jewish communication does not corroborate the report that Jews were actually inside of the Synagogue when it was set fire.[8] This letter was discovered among the Cairo Geniza collection in 1975 by historian Shelomo Dov Goitein.[9] Historians believe that it was written just two weeks after the siege, making it "the earliest account on the conquest in any language."[9] However, all sources agree that a synagogue was indeed burned during the siege.
[edit]
Not sure you noticed, but Arabs themselves were living under the boots of dictators some who had Israel's blessings (Mubarak, Abdullah). All this talk about Jews and Christians living under the bad Mooslem boogey man is bogus. But are you comparing the Middle East's "only Democracy" to the shiekhdoms and dicktatorshits of the region?

No need to tell me about the history of the Semitic Jews in the Middle East. The Euro Crusaders' Jewish cousins seem like the ones causing the trouble; not the local Jews.

http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Gurions-Scand ... s+scandals
States Iraqi-born Jewish journalist, Naeim Giladi: "I write this book to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism.' I write about it because I was a part of it." Giladi delivers the painful truth about the Zionist rape of Palestine and deliberate planting of anti-Semitism in Iraqi Jewish communities during David Ben-Gurion's political career in order to persuade the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel. The goal of the Zionists was to import raw Jewish labor from the Middle East to plow and plant the newly-vacated lands. Also, the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands
Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.

Separately, as I mentioned in other threads, during the last 5 years 6,000 Turkish Jews out of 23,0000 left Turkey due to the agitation associated with the wars in the Middle East. But at the same time, in the Turkish speaking Asian countries this did not trigger any antisemitism against the local Jews. The Mavi Marmara incident was extensively covered and severely criticized in the Azeri television, but this did not trigger any antisemitism against the local Jews of Azerbaijan despite the Azeri friendship with Turkey, and despite the fact that there is some Islamic revival in Azerbaijan.

In any, case at this time, an equitable two-state solution is still possible.

And please do not say Jewish cousins of Euro crusaders, they are not cousins but they are just dealing with the devil to survive. They even accept help from Germany to survive, but Europeans do not consider them as cousins, only useful tools for the moment.
Jnalum Persicum

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

Hans Bulvai wrote:.

No need to tell me about the history of the Semitic Jews in the Middle East. The Euro Crusaders' Jewish cousins seem like the ones causing the trouble; not the local Jews.

http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Gurions-Scand ... s+scandals
.

States Iraqi-born Jewish journalist, Naeim Giladi: "I write this book to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism.' I write about it because I was a part of it." Giladi delivers the painful truth about the Zionist rape of Palestine and deliberate planting of anti-Semitism in Iraqi Jewish communities during David Ben-Gurion's political career in order to persuade the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel. The goal of the Zionists was to import raw Jewish labor from the Middle East to plow and plant the newly-vacated lands. Also, the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands

.

.

Look, Hans

TurkishJew seems posting from "Hebrew University Jewish History manufacturing faculty" .. Hallo Shlomo Sand

He, selectively omits facts, forgets facts, and and

Look,

World Jewish Congress worked intimately with Gestapo for railroading European Jews to Palestine.

When a ship full of European Jews was destined to Madagascan, the Zionist sabotaged and sank it, killing all (Jews) on board

The history of Zionist killing other Jews for their goal to occupy Palestine is widely documented, I posted a lot of documented evidence in FT, am sure HAL9000 very familiar with all

Look,

ME Jews never wanted to leave their 1000s of yrs homes and move to other people's home in Palestine .. ME Jews were happy living with their Muslim compatriots .. they were not rejected or chased out .. they were integrated into ME fabric

Not so the Russian and European Jews .. they were taking advantage of the society, society realizing this rejected them and pushed them out .. they needed somewhere to move @ the same time, the Europeans too wanted to get rid of them

ME Jews mindset, mentality and everything else is like other ME people .. you can not distinguish an Iranian Jew from an Iranian Muslim, neither the look nor mindset

and

ME Jews have nothing in common with German or Russian Jews .. ZERO in common .. they different spicy .. an Arab Jew has ZERO in common with a German Jew .. they neither marry or socialize together .. Israel's chief Rabbi : for Ashkenazim Jews, Arab Jew are worst than an Arab Muslim

ME Jews knew all this, and, did not want to move to Palestine .. Zionist used any trick in the book, specifically (false flag) attacks, sabotage, agent provocateur, provocation and and to destroy the amicable relation existing for 1000s of yrs between ME Jews and their compatriots .. HAL9000 knows all this but chooses not to mention it .. net is full of such episode no need of posting them here .. that book you posting a good source to refer to

Zionist State is established on lies (exodus a lie, etc), and full of terrorism .. all leaders and presidents of Israel were terrorist themselves, I think Begin & Shamir were on British terrorist list for ages



.
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Unless the Alternative is Worse......

Post by monster_gardener »

Jnalum Persicum wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:.

No need to tell me about the history of the Semitic Jews in the Middle East. The Euro Crusaders' Jewish cousins seem like the ones causing the trouble; not the local Jews.

http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Gurions-Scand ... s+scandals
.

States Iraqi-born Jewish journalist, Naeim Giladi: "I write this book to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism.' I write about it because I was a part of it." Giladi delivers the painful truth about the Zionist rape of Palestine and deliberate planting of anti-Semitism in Iraqi Jewish communities during David Ben-Gurion's political career in order to persuade the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel. The goal of the Zionists was to import raw Jewish labor from the Middle East to plow and plant the newly-vacated lands. Also, the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands

.

.

Look, Hans

TurkishJew seems posting from "Hebrew University Jewish History manufacturing faculty" .. Hallo Shlomo Sand

He, selectively omits facts, forgets facts, and and

Look,

World Jewish Congress worked intimately with Gestapo for railroading European Jews to Palestine.

When a ship full of European Jews was destined to Madagascan, the Zionist sabotaged and sank it, killing all (Jews) on board

The history of Zionist killing other Jews for their goal to occupy Palestine is widely documented, I posted a lot of documented evidence in FT, am sure HAL9000 very familiar with all

Look,

ME Jews never wanted to leave their 1000s of yrs homes and move to other people's home in Palestine .. ME Jews were happy living with their Muslim compatriots .. they were not rejected or chased out .. they were integrated into ME fabric

Not so the Russian and European Jews .. they were taking advantage of the society, society realizing this rejected them and pushed them out .. they needed somewhere to move @ the same time, the Europeans too wanted to get rid of them

ME Jews mindset, mentality and everything else is like other ME people .. you can not distinguish an Iranian Jew from an Iranian Muslim, neither the look nor mindset

and

ME Jews have nothing in common with German or Russian Jews .. ZERO in common .. they different spicy .. an Arab Jew has ZERO in common with a German Jew .. they neither marry or socialize together .. Israel's chief Rabbi : for Ashkenazim Jews, Arab Jew are worst than an Arab Muslim

ME Jews knew all this, and, did not want to move to Palestine .. Zionist used any trick in the book, specifically (false flag) attacks, sabotage, agent provocateur, provocation and and to destroy the amicable relation existing for 1000s of yrs between ME Jews and their compatriots .. HAL9000 knows all this but chooses not to mention it .. net is full of such episode no need of posting them here .. that book you posting a good source to refer to

Zionist State is established on lies (exodus a lie, etc), and full of terrorism .. all leaders and presidents of Israel were terrorist themselves, I think Begin & Shamir were on British terrorist list for ages



.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

IMVHO it's a lot more complicated and nasty........

What good reason was there to go to Israel unless the alternative was worse....

And sometimes it was........

Often in Europe......... P is for Pogroms :evil:

And in the ME.......... Damned Dhimmi laws and all that slap you around collection of protection money plus other nastiness......

Yemen in particular....... Could get you killed because some Desert Dirtbag of a Muslim had killed a Jew/slave belonging to another tribe.... Too cheap to pay even the low compensation Desert Dirtbags were supposed to pay for Dhimmis.....

But it also happened in Persia........ Not as Bad as near Mid Twentieth Century Germany but sometimes working on it...

In the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews, describing conditions and beliefs that went back to the 16th century:
"…they are obliged to live in a separate part of town…; for they are considered as unclean creatures… Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt… For the same reason, they are prohibited to go out when it rains; for it is said the rain would wash dirt off them, which would sully the feet of the Mussulmans… If a Jew is recognized as such in the streets, he is subjected to the greatest insults. The passers-by spit in his face, and sometimes beat him… unmercifully… If a Jew enters a shop for anything, he is forbidden to inspect the goods… Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them... Sometimes the Pomegranates intrude into the dwellings of the Jews and take possession of whatever please them. Should the owner make the least opposition in defense of his property, he incurs the danger of atoning for it with his life... If... a Jew shows himself in the street during the three days of the Katel (Muharram)…, he is sure to be murdered."[41]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Je ... .931925.29

Other than crap like this.......

What reason to go to Israel except a religious reason............ something the Euro Jews have in common with the ME Jews........

And the fact that making your own rules gun in hand is often better than having Killer Apes who don't like you make them for you......

And yes that does often work both ways....

Can be hard to be a Palestinian or even a Female Jewish IDF when Penguin Perp Killer Apes are about........ Even if other Jews are trying to stop them.....

Can also be even harder to be a FATah Killer Ape when HamAss Killer Ape Proctologists are on the Prowl............ :twisted: :evil:

We need to get off planet so that we are too far away to kill each other and too busy just contending with the the elements........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Jnalum Persicum

Re: Unless the Alternative is Worse......

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

monster_gardener wrote:.
Jnalum Persicum wrote:.
Hans Bulvai wrote:.

No need to tell me about the history of the Semitic Jews in the Middle East. The Euro Crusaders' Jewish cousins seem like the ones causing the trouble; not the local Jews.

http://www.amazon.com/Ben-Gurions-Scand ... s+scandals
.

States Iraqi-born Jewish journalist, Naeim Giladi: "I write this book to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism.' I write about it because I was a part of it." Giladi delivers the painful truth about the Zionist rape of Palestine and deliberate planting of anti-Semitism in Iraqi Jewish communities during David Ben-Gurion's political career in order to persuade the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel. The goal of the Zionists was to import raw Jewish labor from the Middle East to plow and plant the newly-vacated lands. Also, the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands

.

.

Look, Hans

TurkishJew seems posting from "Hebrew University Jewish History manufacturing faculty" .. Hallo Shlomo Sand

He, selectively omits facts, forgets facts, and and

Look,

World Jewish Congress worked intimately with Gestapo for railroading European Jews to Palestine.

When a ship full of European Jews was destined to Madagascan, the Zionist sabotaged and sank it, killing all (Jews) on board

The history of Zionist killing other Jews for their goal to occupy Palestine is widely documented, I posted a lot of documented evidence in FT, am sure HAL9000 very familiar with all

Look,

ME Jews never wanted to leave their 1000s of yrs homes and move to other people's home in Palestine .. ME Jews were happy living with their Muslim compatriots .. they were not rejected or chased out .. they were integrated into ME fabric

Not so the Russian and European Jews .. they were taking advantage of the society, society realizing this rejected them and pushed them out .. they needed somewhere to move @ the same time, the Europeans too wanted to get rid of them

ME Jews mindset, mentality and everything else is like other ME people .. you can not distinguish an Iranian Jew from an Iranian Muslim, neither the look nor mindset

and

ME Jews have nothing in common with German or Russian Jews .. ZERO in common .. they different spicy .. an Arab Jew has ZERO in common with a German Jew .. they neither marry or socialize together .. Israel's chief Rabbi : for Ashkenazim Jews, Arab Jew are worst than an Arab Muslim

ME Jews knew all this, and, did not want to move to Palestine .. Zionist used any trick in the book, specifically (false flag) attacks, sabotage, agent provocateur, provocation and and to destroy the amicable relation existing for 1000s of yrs between ME Jews and their compatriots .. HAL9000 knows all this but chooses not to mention it .. net is full of such episode no need of posting them here .. that book you posting a good source to refer to

Zionist State is established on lies (exodus a lie, etc), and full of terrorism .. all leaders and presidents of Israel were terrorist themselves, I think Begin & Shamir were on British terrorist list for ages



.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

IMVHO it's a lot more complicated and nasty........

What good reason was there to go to Israel unless the alternative was worse....

And sometimes it was........

Often in Europe......... P is for Pogroms :evil:

And in the ME.......... Damned Dhimmi laws and all that slap you around collection of protection money plus other nastiness......

Yemen in particular....... Could get you killed because some Desert Dirtbag of a Muslim had killed a Jew/slave belonging to another tribe.... Too cheap to pay even the low compensation Desert Dirtbags were supposed to pay for Dhimmis.....

But it also happened in Persia........ Not as Bad as near Mid Twentieth Century Germany but sometimes working on it...

In the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews, describing conditions and beliefs that went back to the 16th century:
"…they are obliged to live in a separate part of town…; for they are considered as unclean creatures… Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt… For the same reason, they are prohibited to go out when it rains; for it is said the rain would wash dirt off them, which would sully the feet of the Mussulmans… If a Jew is recognized as such in the streets, he is subjected to the greatest insults. The passers-by spit in his face, and sometimes beat him… unmercifully… If a Jew enters a shop for anything, he is forbidden to inspect the goods… Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them... Sometimes the Pomegranates intrude into the dwellings of the Jews and take possession of whatever please them. Should the owner make the least opposition in defense of his property, he incurs the danger of atoning for it with his life... If... a Jew shows himself in the street during the three days of the Katel (Muharram)…, he is sure to be murdered."[41]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Je ... .931925.29

Other than crap like this.......

What reason to go to Israel except a religious reason............ something the Euro Jews have in common with the ME Jews........

And the fact that making your own rules gun in hand is often better than having Killer Apes who don't like you make them for you......

And yes that does often work both ways....

Can be hard to be a Palestinian or even a Female Jewish IDF when Penguin Perp Killer Apes are about........ Even if other Jews are trying to stop them.....

Can also be even harder to be a FATah Killer Ape when HamAss Killer Ape Proctologists are on the Prowl............ :twisted: :evil:

We need to get off planet so that we are too far away to kill each other and too busy just contending with the the elements.......

.

Come on, Monster, Come on

That - "piece of lavender" - J.J. Benjamin - a vivid sample of why anti-semitism flourished in eastern Europe

.
J. J. Benjamin (b. Fălticeni, Romania, 1818 – d. London, May 3, 1864) was a Romanian-Jewish historian and traveler.
.

All garbage what he wrote

why you do not listen to NYT Jewish world traveler Roger Cohen


Perhaps I have a bias toward facts over words, but I say the reality of Iranian civility toward Jews tells us more about Iran — its sophistication and culture — than all the inflammatory rhetoric.
That may be because I’m a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran.



When, at a time @least 1/3, probably more, of Iranian population where Jews, how can "Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them" .. or other rubbish he writing

True, in Iran and many other places, different ethnics, Jews, Armenian, Kurd, Azari lived in separate quarters, for a reason .. like China Town in S.F.

Look, Jews lived in ME, Iran and elsewhere, like any other ethnic group, not worst and not better, they were part of population and they loved it .. Jews of Baghdad still miss Baghdad same with Damascus and Cairo .. just ask them

monster_gardener wrote:.
What good reason was there to go to Israel unless the alternative was worse....
.

Monster , this the wrong question

why they had to go anywhere ? ? what was the reason They unwanted ?

that is the 64 dollar question

why nobody wanted to have them ? ?

this a question that concerns not only European and Russian Jews

but

more importantly

it is THE question for YOU guys

Why America and Europe and Russia did not want them ? ?

Has that mindset in Europe, America changed ? ?

hardly

replace in all what happened at that time the name Jews with Muslims and you have what's going on today

what does it mean ?

it means you guys same as B4 .. nothing changed .. in fact, things much worst now as killing 500,000 Iraqi children make sense to you guys as Madeleine says so

In that sense, Jews and Palestinian (and Roma) are victims


Humanity has vanished in west



.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Greenhouses & Goliath's Giant Gazan Gambling Emporium

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Thank You Very Much for your Post, Ibrahim.

Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Yes but why?.........

IMVHO the Israelis would be willing for the Gazans to live in as much comfort as they can contrive as long as they quit launching rockets, sending raiders or act as springboard for another attack on Israel.......

I don't believe that the Israelis really have that much desire to rule Philistia/Gaza as long as the Philistines/Palestinians leave them in Peace rather than Pieces...

Maybe strict Muslim culture would prevent Gaza from becoming a Macao on the Mediterranean with all that beachfront* but there are other things the Gazan could do to make their lives better...........

Remembering the destruction of the Greenhouses that were immediately destroyed when the Gazans got autonomy. Jews, not their oh so concerned about the Palis Muslim brothers, gave those to the Gazans.

If the Gazans are willing to act like Gardeners ;) instead of Monsters :lol: :lol: :lol: , maybe things would work out better for them.

*Though AIUI Egypt wasn't that strict at one time. Remembering it described as being a place where being drunk was a sin but a humorous sort of sin. Belly Dancers and all that...... And Arab Sheiks don't seem to have that much of a problem gambling in Britain and elsewhere so why not fly into Tel Aviv and go to Goliath's Giant Gazan Gambling Emporium ;) and sling :lol: some money to the Gazans.........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:Of course, even Assad's dictatorship in Syria was helpful for Israel since the Syrian government was secular.
1. Assad was helping arm Hezbollah. How many weapons shipped through Syria killed IDF soldiers in the last Israeli invasion of Lebanon? With friends like that.


2. Assumes than any insufficiently secular regime is bad for Israel, and vice versa. Saddam Hussein's regime was good for Israel?

There was certainly opportunism and manipulation during the immigration of Mizrahi Jews, but the way the Arab world united in 1949 against the UN Partition Plan was rather very strong. And after the creation of Israel, you cannot say that most of the wave of antisemitism was just Zionist manipulation. Many Mizrahi Jews went to France and England, as well as other countries, not just Israel. After the creation of Israel life became very difficult for the Jews who live in Arab countries.
You keep saying this over and over and nobody is even arguing against it. What of it? Israel was created and the Jews had a "Jewish state" where not only could they be free and safe, but lord over other groups who lived there. If all you are trying to say is that Mizrahi Jews and Palestinian Arabs were both wronged, then sure that's accurate. Except that those displaced Jews can now live in Tel Aviv, and those displaced Palestinians can live in Gaza. But of a difference, don't you think?
Ironically, both Assad (father and son) as well as Saddam Hussein are preferable to Israel instead of a more religious extremist takeover of Iraq and Syria. Under Assad family's rule, even the Syrian help for Hezbollah was always in moderation. Even a nuclear-armed Saddam and/or Assad would have been perceived as less dangerous by Israel compared to a fanatical system similar to Al Qaeda coming to power in those countries. After all, during the Cold War, both the Soviet Union and the United States always knew how to negotiate and both sides feared escalating the tension beyond a certain limit.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I had already agreed that those Mizrahi Jews who are already in Israel should not demand compensation from the Arab countries they left. I was mentioning this mostly in response to AzeriLoveIran who exaggerates the partially true fact that on some occasions Zionists manipulated the Mizrahi Jews to come to Israel or they may have even attempted to exaggerate or perhaps provoke some antisemitism for this aim, what I was trying to emphasize was that AzeriLoveIran's claims that the Mizrahi Jews just burned their bridges with their homelands and betrayed their former countries by abandoning their old Arab friends, is a gross exaggeration and mostly false. As I said, 75 years ago a German Jew would have begged to be in a Muslim Arab country, but there were better opportunities for Jews after World War II.

As for the suffering of the Palestinians, it was not, and should not be the aim of Israel to rule the lives of the Palestinians in West Bank, Gaza, etc, but the main point is to encircle both Gaza and West Bank to prevent the Palestinians from arming themselves. The other Palestinians who are Israeli citizens are also in a complicated situation, because most of them openly say that they would prefer a Palestinian state where they live. But ALL nations first consider their own survival first. IF the Israeli Palestinians do not support Israel's existence, their citizenship becomes an issue. Note carefully that Turkey removed a lot of people from citizenship in the past, when their loyalty became an issue. After World War II, both Poland and Russia deported millions of their citizens who had German ancestry, and they all went to West Germany. To be exact, the reason there are 1.5 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens is because the Israelis were actually not as aggressive as many other nations, they could have deported those Palestinians who did not promise that they support Israel and the Jews, but they did not deport them (the Israeli Druze and Circassians did make such a promise). When Turkey intervened in Cyprus in support of the ethnic Turkish population there, not only a lot more land was captured than the regions where the ethnic Turks were the majority, but also hundreds of thousands of ethnic Greeks were forced to leave the Northern Cyprus, and that Turkish region became VERY uniform now. This is in addition to the 100,000 Anatolian Turks that were brought in to bolster the ethnic Turkish Cypriot population, which is also illegal like the Israeli settlers. I am NOT using the Turkish intervention in Cyprus as an example to justify Israel's actions under any circumstances, but I am emphasizing that Israel is FORCED to do terrible things unless Palestinians recognize Israel in some form. If I were the government of Israel in 1950, I would have interviewed ALL Israeli Palestinians very rigorously to make them choose between becoming true Israelis like the Druze and the Circassians, or losing their citizenship and being deported. I would certainly vote for a Palestinian prime minister who is pro-Israel like the Israeli Druze or Circassians. This would have solved the problem from becoming an Apartheid issue at least. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
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