Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

TurkishJew

Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

According to this article, there were many local Jews in Palestine when the regions was ruled by the Ottoman Empire. The purpose of this thread is to calculate approximately, the number of Jews in Palestine that can trace their ancestry to the time periods long before Israel was created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Jews
EXCERPTS:
Prior to dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire, the population of the area comprising modern Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip was not exclusively Muslim. Under the Empire's rule in the mid-16th century, there were no more than 10,000 Jews in Palestine,[1] making up around 5% of the population, possibly forming the biggest concentration of Jews in ratio to the non-Jewish population in a particular region at the time. As comparison, Jews currently comprise about 0.25% of the world's population. By the mid-19th century, Turkish sources recorded that 80% of the 600,000-strong population was identified as Muslim, 10% as Christian Arab and 5-7% as Jewish.[2]
From the above data, we can calculate that if, in mid-19th century there were 600,000 people in Palestine and if 5-7 % was Jewish, then it follows that there were at least (0.05)*(600,000) = 30,000 Jews in Palestine in mid-19th century.

But since 80 % of the 600,000 Palestinians were Muslims during mid-19th century, this means that there were (0.8)*600,000)=480,000 Muslim Palestinians in mid-19th century.

Next, taking into account the fact that recently the Palestinian population reached nearly 5,000,000, we see that since mid-19th century, the Muslim Palestinian population grew by a factor of 9.41, or by 941 %. Of course, during World War II, a lot of Muslim Arabs were also coming to Palestine from other regions of the Middle East, but I am still including them as part of the Palestinian population. Without the additional Arabs who came to Palestine during World War II, perhaps the number of Palestinians would have been considerably less, perhaps 2,500,000, and in the latter case, perhaps the population growth of Muslim Palestinians since mid-19th century would be only by a factor of 4.2 or by 420 % instead of 9.41.

Finally, if we take into account the population growth since mid-19th century, we can multiply the 30,000 ancient Palestinian Jews by the factors 4.2 and 9.41 (explained in the above paragraphs), and we see that currently the Palestinian Jews of ancient Ottoman background would be between (4.2)*(30,000) = 126,000 and (9.41)*(30,000) = 282,300.

This current number of purely ancient Palestinian Jews would still be a small minority compared to the current population of 5 million Muslim Palestinians, but it would still be significant minority worth consideration.

Thus my question is: If the European and Mizrahi Jews leave Israel, would the remaining ancient local Jewish population (between 125,000 and 280,000) be given equal rights within a Palestinian Muslim country? If not, why not?
Jnalum Persicum

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

.

TurkishJew

why beating around the bushes ?

Ottoman Archive is extensive, detailed, accurate and and and

Muslim - Jews  in Palestine historicaly.jpg
Muslim - Jews in Palestine historicaly.jpg (239.77 KiB) Viewed 2235 times

First European Jews arrived in Palestine around 1860

At that time, of total 369,000 population of Palestine, there were :

88.0% - 325,000 .. Muslims
08.4% - 31,000 .. Christians
03.6% - 13,000 .. Jews


You have the mike :)



.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Jnalum Persicum wrote:.

TurkishJew

why beating around the bushes ?

Ottoman Archive is extensive, detailed, accurate and and and

Muslim - Jews in Palestine historicaly.jpg

First European Jews arrived in Palestine around 1860

At that time, of total 369,000 population of Palestine, there were :

88.0% - 325,000 .. Muslims
08.4% - 31,000 .. Christians
03.6% - 13,000 .. Jews


You have the mike :)



.
Your numbers are very similar to what I said. Remember that the first paragraph at Wikipedia says that 5 % of the population was Jewish at mid-19th century, and that would be 30,000. Your numbers say that in mid-19th century this number was 15,000 Jews, which is comparable, not too far off.

THEN I finally multiplied by the factors that reflect the Palestinian population growth. From 480,000 Palestinian Muslims who became 5 million this would be a factor of 9, so that if you multiply 15,000 Jews by 9 the result is 135,000 now. But then I also considered the fact that there were a lot of NEW Arab migrants who came to Palestine during World War II, perhaps making the Palestinian population swell without additional birth, and so I took half of that and also multiplied by 4.2 instead of 9, and this time 15,000 Jews multiplied by 4.2 would be 63,000, which is still a fairly respectable minority worth consideration. Thus in average, the Jewish Palestinian population would be not too far off from 100,000.

Remember that Vatican is a very tiny enclave in Italy that has autonomy with its own official citizenship.

Actually the smaller the better since it would not offend the Arab population, UNLESS, of course, the opposition is not based on demographic considerations but due to the need for making Jews inferior to Muslims based on religion. If the discrimination is symbolic against such a small number of people, it speaks volumes about the needs of the people doing the discrimination.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

Why would the exact percentage matter, if we know for a fact that it was majority Palestinian prior to the formation of Israel?

Remember Golda Mier trying to argue that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian" and these people would be just as happy living elsewhere since they had no identity or sense of nationhood? Ooops.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:Why would the exact percentage matter, if we know for a fact that it was majority Palestinian prior to the formation of Israel?

Remember Golda Mier trying to argue that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian" and these people would be just as happy living elsewhere since they had no identity or sense of nationhood? Ooops.

1) Golda Meir was from Wisconsin. But at the same time, even Hamas is impressed that a significant number of Jews such as Chomsky went to Gaza to give Palestinians their support. This is something many Palestinians find interesting, and this can actually lead to peace and compromise as many Arabs started to see that not all Jews are the way their television programs portray them to be.

2) My reason for quoting a percentage of authentic Palestinian Jews (my paternal grandfather's relatives who had moved to Jerusalem and Safed from Rhodes, many centuries ago when Rhodes and Palestine was under Ottoman control) was because I was trying to establish some partial legitimacy to Jews living there and to establish the fact that this small group of Jews deserve equality in a Palestinian Muslim majority state, contrary to the current aspirations of both Hamas as well as the Palestinian Authority.

3) This is a small digression but note that there is an unwritten but strictly enforced rule in Turkey that only those Turkish citizens who are Muslims can become high ranking officers in the Turkish army. After Ataturk died, there was a crackdown and the Turkish Jews who wanted to become officers were discouraged. After Ataturk came to power in Turkey, many Turkish Jews changed their traditional Spanish names to 100 % pure Turkish names and several of them joined military schools to become model citizens, and originally this was approved and liked by the government, but later, things started to go wrong. One of my father's brothers wanted to become an officer in the Turkish army, as part of the patriotic tradition of my grandfather's family, but he was discouraged as the Turkish officers explained to him that after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, only fully assimilable people are trusted in Turkey. My uncle became very unhappy, because all he wanted was to be an officer in the Turkish army. Thus my uncle left Turkey long before World War II started and came to America. This happened because my father was already offered a green card thanks to an invitation given by relatives who owned a farm in the United States, as they wanted my father to work for them, and when my father (eldest son of the family) saw that his brother (my uncle) was very sad, he gave his turn for the green card to his brother, and my father chose to stay in Turkey. My uncle became a high ranking officer in the United States, and he was involved in World War II, his plane was shot down but he survived. He got what he wanted in the end. Medals over money.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Why would the exact percentage matter, if we know for a fact that it was majority Palestinian prior to the formation of Israel?

Remember Golda Mier trying to argue that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian" and these people would be just as happy living elsewhere since they had no identity or sense of nationhood? Ooops.

1) Golda Meir was from Wisconsin.
But wasn't Israel still her "homeland?" And she apparently had more right to be there than some Palestinian family that had lived there since 1000C.E.?





2) My reason for quoting a percentage of authentic Palestinian Jews (my paternal grandfather's relatives who had moved to Jerusalem and Safed from Rhodes, many centuries ago when Rhodes and Palestine was under Ottoman control) was because I was trying to establish some partial legitimacy to Jews living there and to establish the fact that this small group of Jews deserve equality in a Palestinian Muslim majority state, contrary to the current aspirations of both Hamas as well as the Palestinian Authority.
Why would current policy of Palestinians be based on the status quo prior to the foundation of Israel? Obviously there policies are a reaction to Israeli policy.


3) This is a small digression but note that there is an unwritten but strictly enforced rule in Turkey that only those Turkish citizens who are Muslims can become high ranking officers in the Turkish army.
Are there a lot of high-ranking non-Jewish officers in the IDF?
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
3) This is a small digression but note that there is an unwritten but strictly enforced rule in Turkey that only those Turkish citizens who are Muslims can become high ranking officers in the Turkish army.
Are there a lot of high-ranking non-Jewish officers in the IDF?

Yes. A lot of Druze generals in the Israeli army, and in the Air Force a new F-16 pilot (so far only one because it is very competitive to become a fighter pilot in Israel, as all women are after them, and you need an IQ of 160 to get in).

See the videos I showed before. But here is the video about the Druze F-16 pilot in the Israel Air Force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_uYzcCjN8I

Please note that the Israeli pilots always wear their helmets during interviews with the press so that their faces are concealed. If a pilot is kidnapped and smuggled out of Israel, all secrets would be lost. These pilots are trained to commit suicide if they are captured in combat. This Druze pilot has access to top Israeli electronics, but he is trusted because Druze in Israel are known to be friends of Jews. But this is changing I admit, as some Druze are beginning to show less sympathy due to rising Islamic fundamentalism and the wars with the Palestinians, but despite this, the Druze are still very trusted.


More videos about Druze Israeli soldiers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xp35QfJwsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtP4VZisNGM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5uGiqBs1NE

Here is an article about Isreli Druze community, who favored Jews and Israel, and hence they have near total equality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Druze

Here is an article, where the acting president of Israel is mentioned: His name is Majalli Wahabi, a Druze!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majalli_Wahabi


The Circassians in Israel also have equality, as they like Jews. Here is the video of Circassian Muslim Imam, Sheikh Farok Zinadin, a devout Muslim who says good things about Jews (He speaks in Hebrew but there are English subtitles, although I admit his Hebrew is better than mine.):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-vXD84Pv0I

Here is an article about Circassian Villages in Israel, they even have the right to use their own national Circassian flag in Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassians_in_Israel
Last edited by TurkishJew on Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
2) My reason for quoting a percentage of authentic Palestinian Jews (my paternal grandfather's relatives who had moved to Jerusalem and Safed from Rhodes, many centuries ago when Rhodes and Palestine was under Ottoman control) was because I was trying to establish some partial legitimacy to Jews living there and to establish the fact that this small group of Jews deserve equality in a Palestinian Muslim majority state, contrary to the current aspirations of both Hamas as well as the Palestinian Authority.
Why would current policy of Palestinians be based on the status quo prior to the foundation of Israel? Obviously there policies are a reaction to Israeli policy.

Excellent question! Suppose that as a "reaction" to Israeli policy, as you put it, the future Palestinian state's stated policy of Apartheid against Jews materializes (it will very likely happen whether the future Palestine is a two-state solution or a one-state solution.)

What then? You previously stated to me that the Mizrahi Jews should not ask for compensation from the Arab countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc, since they already have Israel as their country, and at that time, I actually agreed with you within the context you mentioned. But if and when the Palestinian Apartheid is established in the form of a one-state solution as the "reaction" to the Israeli policy, there will be unintended consequences, because at that precise moment, the Mizrahi Jews who currently live in Israel, might make a brief detour before they immigrate to Canada, and they might temporarily visit Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya, etc. But their visit may not be to ask for compensation, money or the land that was confiscated, instead, they might take their revenge in a terrible way hitherto not seen in recorded history. Thus one thing can affect the other, and this chain reaction can stop only if the tit for tat philosophy is attenuated.

One good way to start is for Hamas and Palestinian Authority to stop the television programs for children that are based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or else the two-state solution can become a zero-world solution.

Thus one thing affects everything else... We need to see everything not only in space, but also dynamically in time, I am no longer HAL 9000, but if I were HAL 9000, I would say to you: "Don't be 3 dimensional..."
Last edited by TurkishJew on Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by monster_gardener »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Why would the exact percentage matter, if we know for a fact that it was majority Palestinian prior to the formation of Israel?

Remember Golda Mier trying to argue that there was no such thing as a "Palestinian" and these people would be just as happy living elsewhere since they had no identity or sense of nationhood? Ooops.

1) Golda Meir was from Wisconsin. But at the same time, even Hamas is impressed that a significant number of Jews such as Chomsky went to Gaza to give Palestinians their support. This is something many Palestinians find interesting, and this can actually lead to peace and compromise as many Arabs started to see that not all Jews are the way their television programs portray them to be.

2) My reason for quoting a percentage of authentic Palestinian Jews (my paternal grandfather's relatives who had moved to Jerusalem and Safed from Rhodes, many centuries ago when Rhodes and Palestine was under Ottoman control) was because I was trying to establish some partial legitimacy to Jews living there and to establish the fact that this small group of Jews deserve equality in a Palestinian Muslim majority state, contrary to the current aspirations of both Hamas as well as the Palestinian Authority.

3) This is a small digression but note that there is an unwritten but strictly enforced rule in Turkey that only those Turkish citizens who are Muslims can become high ranking officers in the Turkish army. After Ataturk died, there was a crackdown and the Turkish Jews who wanted to become officers were discouraged. After Ataturk came to power in Turkey, many Turkish Jews changed their traditional Spanish names to 100 % pure Turkish names and several of them joined military schools to become model citizens, and originally this was approved and liked by the government, but later, things started to go wrong. One of my father's brothers wanted to become an officer in the Turkish army, as part of the patriotic tradition of my grandfather's family, but he was discouraged as the Turkish officers explained to him that after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, only fully assimilable people are trusted in Turkey. My uncle became very unhappy, because all he wanted was to be an officer in the Turkish army. Thus my uncle left Turkey long before World War II started and came to America. This happened because my father was already offered a green card thanks to an invitation given by relatives who owned a farm in the United States, as they wanted my father to work for them, and when my father (eldest son of the family) saw that his brother (my uncle) was very sad, he gave his turn for the green card to his brother, and my father chose to stay in Turkey. My uncle became a high ranking officer in the United States, and he was involved in World War II, his plane was shot down but he survived. He got what he wanted in the end. Medals over money.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Hal.
But at the same time, even Hamas is impressed that a significant number of Jews such as Chomsky went to Gaza to give Palestinians their support. This is something many Palestinians find interesting, and this can actually lead to peace and compromise as many Arabs started to see that not all Jews are the way their television programs portray them to be.
Maybe.......
even Hamas is impressed
Not sure I'd want to trust people who do red hot colonoscopy on their fellow Arab/Muslim "Brothers"....... Ask the FATAH Boyz Israel gave refuge to and passed on the West Bank........

Also remembering some HamAssers HotDogging it with Hands Bloody Held High after ambushing some IDF in Gaza........
This is something many Palestinians find interesting,
Sure they do....... Useful Idiots ;) oops I mean Infidels.......
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Post by monster_gardener »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
2) My reason for quoting a percentage of authentic Palestinian Jews (my paternal grandfather's relatives who had moved to Jerusalem and Safed from Rhodes, many centuries ago when Rhodes and Palestine was under Ottoman control) was because I was trying to establish some partial legitimacy to Jews living there and to establish the fact that this small group of Jews deserve equality in a Palestinian Muslim majority state, contrary to the current aspirations of both Hamas as well as the Palestinian Authority.
Why would current policy of Palestinians be based on the status quo prior to the foundation of Israel? Obviously there policies are a reaction to Israeli policy.

Excellent question! Suppose that as a "reaction" to Israeli policy, as you put it, the future Palestinian state's stated policy of Apartheid against Jews materializes (it will very likely happen whether the future Palestine is a two-state solution or a one-state solution.)

What then? You previously stated to me that the Mizrahi Jews should not ask for compensation from the Arab countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, etc, since they already have Israel as their country, and at that time, I actually agreed with you within the context you mentioned. But when the Palestinian Apartheid is established as the reaction to the Israeli policy, there will be unintended consequences, because at that precise moment, the Mizrahi Jews who currently live in Israel, might make a brief detour before they immigrate to Canada, and they might temporarily visit Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya, etc. But their visit may not be to ask for compensation, money or the land that was confiscated, instead, they might take their revenge in a terrible way hitherto not seen in recorded history. Thus one thing can affect the other, and this chain reaction can stop only if the tit for tat philosophy is attenuated.

One good way to start is for Hamas and Palestinian Authority to stop the television programs for children that are based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or else the two-state solution can become a zero-world solution.

Thus one thing affects everything else... We need to see everything not only in space, but also dynamically in time, I am no longer HAL 9000, but if I were HAL 9000, I would say to you: "You are so 3 dimensional..."
Thank you Very Much for your post, Hal.
and they might temporarily visit Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya, etc. But their visit may not be to ask for compensation, money or the land that was confiscated, instead, they might take their revenge in a terrible way hitherto not seen in recorded history.
Given the HamAss record with red hot colonoscopies, I suspect any Jews of ANY sort who manage to escape would not have time to do that except maybe for Nuke Launch techs at Dimona........and if they do....... best to head for the Southern Hemisphere instead of Canada........

When you're trying to escape, escape..... Save revenge for later if you want to channel Abba Kovner......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abba_Kovner
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Ibrahim
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
3) This is a small digression but note that there is an unwritten but strictly enforced rule in Turkey that only those Turkish citizens who are Muslims can become high ranking officers in the Turkish army.
Are there a lot of high-ranking non-Jewish officers in the IDF?

Yes. A lot of Druze generals in the Israeli army,
Define "a lot."

and in the Air Force a new F-16 pilot (so far only one because it is very competitive to become a fighter pilot in Israel, as all women are after them, and you need an IQ of 160 to get in).

A Druze pilot huh? Neato.

Here is an article about Isreli Druze community, who favored Jews and Israel, and hence they have near total equality.
I guess the hand feeds them well. I like the tacit concession about who is "nearly equal" and why.




The Circassians in Israel also have equality, as they like Jews. Here is the video of Circassian Muslim Imam, Sheikh Farok Zinadin, a devout Muslim who says good things about Jews


How is this related to the military?


Here is an article about Circassian Villages in Israel, they even have the right to use their own national Circassian flag in Israel:
Allowed to use a flag? Truly they are the envy of the world.
Ibrahim
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Why would current policy of Palestinians be based on the status quo prior to the foundation of Israel? Obviously there policies are a reaction to Israeli policy.

Excellent question! Suppose that as a "reaction" to Israeli policy, as you put it, the future Palestinian state's stated policy of Apartheid against Jews materializes (it will very likely happen whether the future Palestine is a two-state solution or a one-state solution.)[/quote]

I've already stated this. Because Israel has stolen from and brutalized the Palestinians for decades, the Palestinian state will favor Arabs or be nearly Arab-only, and the same will be true of Israel, which already produly declares itself the "Jewish state." All of this assuming a two-state solution can even be reached and the Likud-backed Settlers haven't made it impossible.

I don't understand what you find confusing about this. Pre-1948 coexistence isn't relevant because Israeli actions since them have destroyed whatever goodwill existed. This is one of several reason why your hypothetical scenarios are pointless to discuss.



One good way to start is for Hamas and Palestinian Authority to stop the television programs for children that are based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or else the two-state solution can become a zero-world solution.
Ultra-orthodox Jewish schooling in Israel is equally propaganda-laden and repulsive. There is total equality between the Settlers and Hamas. I'm not very interested in lectures on what the Palestinians ought to do when Settlers are pelting Arab children with rocks while the IDF watches and laughs.




I think Israel basically sunk itself with the First Intifada. Then-PM Yitzhak Shamir said that Israel needed to "put the fear of death into the Arabs," and that was the policy. Well, it didn't work so that's pretty much the end of peaceful coexistence. Nobody there wants it.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

1. "palestine" was under control of international powers prior to 1945.

2. Jews lobbied those powers successfully and obtained a nation as a gift so to speak.

3. Said nation declared independence immediately.

4. A number of Arab states immediately declared war

5. Israel won the war and new territory as the result of the war

6. Now the defeated peoples want the land back?

Where did I go wrong.
Censorship isn't necessary
TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
3) This is a small digression but note that there is an unwritten but strictly enforced rule in Turkey that only those Turkish citizens who are Muslims can become high ranking officers in the Turkish army.
Are there a lot of high-ranking non-Jewish officers in the IDF?

Yes. A lot of Druze generals in the Israeli army,
Define "a lot."

and in the Air Force a new F-16 pilot (so far only one because it is very competitive to become a fighter pilot in Israel, as all women are after them, and you need an IQ of 160 to get in).

A Druze pilot huh? Neato.

Here is an article about Isreli Druze community, who favored Jews and Israel, and hence they have near total equality.
I guess the hand feeds them well. I like the tacit concession about who is "nearly equal" and why.




The Circassians in Israel also have equality, as they like Jews. Here is the video of Circassian Muslim Imam, Sheikh Farok Zinadin, a devout Muslim who says good things about Jews


How is this related to the military?


Here is an article about Circassian Villages in Israel, they even have the right to use their own national Circassian flag in Israel:
Allowed to use a flag? Truly they are the envy of the world.


In Turkey, only Muslims can become military pilots, certainly not for F-16.

Certainly a non-Muslim cannot attain a rank higher than commanding a few dozen soldiers.

Remember there are only about 102,000 Druze in Israel according to the statistics from 2004.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Druze
The Israeli Druze are a religious minority in Israel. In 2004, there were 102,000 Druze living in the country.[1] In 1957, the Israeli government designated the Druze a distinct ethnic community at the request of its communal leaders. The Druze are Arabic-speaking citizens of Israel who serve in the Israel Defense Forces.
Thus they are 2 % of the population compared to the Jewish population of 5,000,000. Compared to their population there are a lot of Druze officers that can be considered high ranking.

And your dismissal of the Druze F-16 pilot (this is not a transport plane pilot) is wrong because there are only about 362 (surely less than 400) F-16 planes in Israel and they are critical, with top level electronics:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article7.html

The rank and caliber of such a pilot is high in Israel. Compared to the 2 % population of Druze, this is a high representation, given that you need exceptional mental and physical test scores to be accepted.

Here is a list of prominent Israeli Druze, including the Acting President of Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_Druze
Military

Assad Assad – former officer, diplomat and politician who served as a member of the Knesset for Likud between 1992 and 1996.
Imad Fares – former Brig. General in the Israeli Defense Force. He won acclaim as the commander of the Givati Brigade (infantry) from 2001–2003.
Majdi Halabi – disappeared on May 24, 2005, at age 19, while attempting to hitchhike from his hometown to his Ordnance Corps camp near Tirat Carmel.
Brigadier General Hasson Hasson - IDF officer whom currently serves as the military secretary to President Shimon Peres.[2]
Yusef Mishleb – the first Israeli Druze to be promoted to the rank of colonel in the IDF. served in part as commander of the Etzion Regional Brigade, commander of the Edom Division, as Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories and as the commander of the Home Front Command.
Nabih Mar'i - former IDF colonel and deputy commander of the IDF's Gaza Division who was killed in 1996 by Palestinian rioters in Rafah.
Ismail Kabalan - the first Druze to become an IDF officer and the only individual to ever serve both as an officer in the IDF and as an officer in the Syrian Armed Forces.
[edit]
Politicians and government officials



Majalli Wahabi member of the Knesset for Kadima, and briefly the acting President of Israel in 2007


Ayoob Kara member of the Knesset for Likud


Hamad Amar, member of the Knesset for Yisrael Beiteinu
Labib Hussein Abu Rokan – politician who served as a member of the Knesset for Cooperation and Brotherhood between 1959 and 1961.
Hamad Amar – politician and currently serves as a member of the Knesset for Yisrael Beiteinu.
Assad Assad – former officer, diplomat and politician who served as a member of the Knesset for Likud between 1992 and 1996.
Zeidan Atashi – former diplomat and politician who served as a member of the Knesset for the Democratic Movement for Change and Shinui between 1977 and 1981, and again from 1984 until 1988.
Amal Nasser el-Din – author and former politician who served as a member of the Knesset for Likud between 1977 and 1988.
Salah-Hassan Hanifes – politician who served as a member of the Knesset for Progress and Work between 1951 and 1959.
Ayoob Kara – currently a member of the Knesset for Likud and Deputy Minister for Development of the Negev and Galilee.
Reda Mansour – poet, historian and Diplomat.
Jabr Muadi – politician who served as a member of the Knesset for seven different parties between 1951 and 1981.
Mohamed Nafa – politician who served as a member of the Knesset for Hadash from 1990 until 1992.
Said Nafa – member of the Knesset for the Arab party Balad.
Shachiv Shnaan – served as a member of the Knesset for the Labor Party between 2008 and 2009.
Salah Tarif – member of the Knesset between 1992 and 2006. When appointed Minister without Portfolio by Ariel Sharon in 2001, he became Israel's first non-Jewish government minister.[1]
Majalli Wahabi – politician who currently serves as a member of the Knesset for Kadima. He briefly assumed the position of President due to President Rhubarb Katzav's leave of absence and Acting President Dalia Itzik's trip abroad in February 2007, making him the first non-Jew to act as Israel's head of state.
Kamal Mansour - Arab affairs adviser to the president of Israel. Mansour was awarded the Israel Prize for his "activities over the years and his extraordinary contribution to the intercultural and the inter-communal integration in Israel."
Fares Hamud Falah - the first Druze judge in Israel. Served as a VP of the Magistrate Court Judges in Acre.
The video of the Circassian Imam that I mentioned cannot be dismissed. This is not military, but shows that Circassian Muslims are in good shape in Israel.
Ibrahim
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

I'm not saying you're wrong about the Druze and Circassians, or the Turkish military preference for Muslims (Turkey is %98 Muslim). I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how this is related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century. I also don't really care that much. The Turkish military is full of meat heads, and we know that because its a military. Israeli is nice to Druze and Circassians? Neat, but not really the top of the list of important facts about Israel. Maybe that Druze pilot got to fly some air strikes in the last invasion of Lebanon.
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Peaceful Coexistence........

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Why would current policy of Palestinians be based on the status quo prior to the foundation of Israel? Obviously there policies are a reaction to Israeli policy.

Excellent question! Suppose that as a "reaction" to Israeli policy, as you put it, the future Palestinian state's stated policy of Apartheid against Jews materializes (it will very likely happen whether the future Palestine is a two-state solution or a one-state solution.)
I've already stated this. Because Israel has stolen from and brutalized the Palestinians for decades, the Palestinian state will favor Arabs or be nearly Arab-only, and the same will be true of Israel, which already produly declares itself the "Jewish state." All of this assuming a two-state solution can even be reached and the Likud-backed Settlers haven't made it impossible.

I don't understand what you find confusing about this. Pre-1948 coexistence isn't relevant because Israeli actions since them have destroyed whatever goodwill existed. This is one of several reason why your hypothetical scenarios are pointless to discuss.
One good way to start is for Hamas and Palestinian Authority to stop the television programs for children that are based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or else the two-state solution can become a zero-world solution.
Ultra-orthodox Jewish schooling in Israel is equally propaganda-laden and repulsive. There is total equality between the Settlers and Hamas. I'm not very interested in lectures on what the Palestinians ought to do when Settlers are pelting Arab children with rocks while the IDF watches and laughs.


I think Israel basically sunk itself with the First Intifada. Then-PM Yitzhak Shamir said that Israel needed to "put the fear of death into the Arabs," and that was the policy. Well, it didn't work so that's pretty much the end of peaceful coexistence. Nobody there wants it.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim
Because Israel has stolen from and brutalized the Palestinians for decades,
Adapted.........

Because Muslim Jihadis have stolen from and brutalized non Muslims for centuries...........

I really don't get that upset when the non Muslims push back unless it is something like or worse than Muslim Standard Operating Procedures such as red hot colonoscopies by HamAss, Samir Kuntar stuff like bashing in the heads of young children....... things like that..........
Pre-1948 coexistence isn't relevant because Israeli actions since them have destroyed whatever goodwill existed.
Corrected..........
Pre-1948 coexistence isn't relevant because Arab & Israeli actions since them have destroyed whatever goodwill existed.


With that correction, you are probably right......
This is one of several reason why your hypothetical scenarios are pointless to discuss.
You may be right....... IMVHO It seems that out of love & nostalgia for Ottoman/Ataturk Turkey, Hal may be trying to get Turkish approval from you but correctly has deduced that the Muslim culture in Palestine is probably so malignant now that none of his soft accommodating solutions in Palestine will work....

I'm not very interested in lectures on what the Palestinians ought to do when Settlers are pelting Arab children with rocks while the IDF watches and laughs.
Rock throwing.......etc. Where have I read about that before............ Didn't the Intifada start with Arab juvenile delinquents ;) throwing rocks..

IIRC quite a history of that........ I've got it, that Sunni site discussion about how to treat non-Muslims.......
Echoing a saying attributed to Muhammad (Sahih Muslim 26:5389), Hasan al-Kafrawi, an 18th century scholar, advises that "if you [Muslims] encounter one of them [dhimmis] on the road, push him into the narrowest and tightest spot".*[115] Both Muslim sources and European travelers to the Middle East describe humiliations and insults of dhimmis, and especially of the Jews.[108][116] Throwing of stones at dhimmis was a favorite amusement of Muslim children in many places from early times until nowadays.[98][117]
Seems that Islamic culture has quite a history of encouraging Juvenile Delinquency :lol: :lol: :lol:
pretty much the end of peaceful coexistence. Nobody there wants it.
IMVHO some like Hal seem to want it....

So do I but I think it involves BIG Fences......... Maybe even interstellar sized...........
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Ibrahim wrote:I'm not saying you're wrong about the Druze and Circassians, or the Turkish military preference for Muslims (Turkey is %98 Muslim). I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see how this is related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century. I also don't really care that much. The Turkish military is full of meat heads, and we know that because its a military. Israeli is nice to Druze and Circassians? Neat, but not really the top of the list of important facts about Israel. Maybe that Druze pilot got to fly some air strikes in the last invasion of Lebanon.


Meat heads: Until recently, until the top Turkish officers were dismissed due to their secular attitudes ( by the way, I do agree that there should be no military coups by the way, even the military coup against Erbakan a few decades ago was wrong, I will cover Professor Erbakan extensively in a special thread dedicated to his political movement later) by the current new government, there were a lot less meat heads in the Turkish military, as this profession (being an officer) attracted very dedicated Turks with high morals and high intelligence. I cannot prove this but there are many articles saying that these officers were dismissed for political reasons, not due to a massive conspiracy to overthrow the government as advertised, and these officers were replaced with more religious ones. I don't mean to insult to religious people, Newton was very religious, but clearly the caliber of the new officers declined significantly with the politically motivated appointments.



The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.


The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.

As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim, consider the GREAT relations between Israel and Azerbaijan that is both Muslim and Turkish speaking (never mind AzeriLoveIran insisting that Azeris are of Iranian ancestry and that the Ottomans forced Azeris to learn Turkish, the bottom like is that the Azeri people think they are Turkish). Azerbaijan and overall almost all of the Turkic former Soviet republics have less than zero antisemitism, despite the wars between Israel and Palestinians, as well as the Mavi Marmara event covered on Azeri television. The Mavi Marmara incident was severely criticized in Azerbaijan, but this did NOT lead to any increase in antisemitism there.

Here the Azeri Rabbi (Mountain Jews are neither Ashkenazic nor Sephardic/Mizrahi, many of them were connected with the Khazar Turkish Empire) in Azerbaijan, praying for the Azeri Army that lost the war in Karabagh 20 years ago. The Imam, the Rabbi and two priests are praying together in Azerbaijan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHMGOHhTZ58&feature=plcp

The same Azeri Rabbi reads a poem for the Jewish Azeri Tank Commander Albert Agarunov who fought and died in the war against Armenia 20 years ago. Here he uses the word Allah to refer to God, and the Azeri Turks pray for the soul of their Jewish soldier who became a national hero and they say "inşallah":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNnU5MU0MDQ&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ewTTlrGznE&feature=plcp

This is the grave of that Jewish Azeri tank commander who is an official national hero. On the grave it is written that he is the national hero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SJL34k-rOo

Here is a detailed video about Azerbaijan war 20 years ago, where Albert Agarunov was interviewed before he died in combat. The interview is at time t=2:56: In this interview he proudly says he is Jewish and that he feels obliged to serve in the Azeri army. There were many other Azeri Jews who fought in this war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwrQ97kDo0s

Although Azerbaijan lost this war and the result was a clear Armenian victory 20 years ago, Albert destroyed 9 Armenian tanks and 2 armored trucks. Albert also destroyed the tank of the leading rival Armenian tank commander in a famous artillery duel, and he became a legend in Azerbaijan. The Armenians decided that he was an important target and offered a big financial reward to anyone who can kil him. In the end Albert was killed by a sniper bullet.

But the bottom line is that Azerbaijan did not see any increase in antisemitism despite the Israel/Palestine wars or the Mavi Marmara incident. This diverges significantly from the situation in Turkey. Azerbaijan likes Israel despite the Mavi Marmara incident.

You won't believe the next video but here it is. Although the Armenian massacre by the Ottomans was recognized in Europe, no significant recognition was given for the corresponding massacre of Azeris by the invading Armenians 20 years ago in the Karabagh war. Thus the Azeri politicians went to Israel to ask for the Israeli political support to get the Europeans to recognize the Khodjaly massacre and the 600,000 Azeris who were ethnically cleansed by the Armenians 20 years ago. In this next video (which has 4 parts), the Azeri representative lectures in Israel, and instead of lecturing in English, she speaks in Turkish because there are a lot of Azeri Jews who feel nostalgia in Israel, and as she speaks there is translation in Hebrew, so I was able to understand both in Turkish and Hebrew. Basically this Azeri representative brought to Israel her new book about the massacre of Azeris 20 years ago, imploring Israelis to speak to the European human rights organizations on their behalf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0vxZZaKtt8


But the following lecture in Israel is in English, so you can understand everything. In this video another Azeri representative speaks about the good relations between Israel and Azerbaijan, please watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft6oWjeb ... ure=relmfu
Jnalum Persicum

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

TurkishJew wrote:.

As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim, consider the GREAT relations between Israel and Azerbaijan that is both Muslim and Turkish speaking (never mind AzeriLoveIran insisting that Azeris are of Iranian ancestry and that the Ottomans forced Azeris to learn Turkish, the bottom like is that the Azeri people think they are Turkish).

.

TurkishJew


Are you not astonished Ibrahim never says Shirvan & Arran people are Turks ? ?

I challenged him, asked him, baited him to say so

But he never replied or said so

why you think so ? ?

Because he knows history and you don't

He knows, and I was told by many Turkish elite in Istanbul when I last visited them, that Shirvan & Arran neither Turk nor feel Turk nor say they Turk

Russians and Turks pushing in that direction .. but does not work

As said, in all that space nobody is against Jews, but, everybody against Zionists


And those video clips are no representative of Shirvan & Arran people, they staged by elite .. same as it was in Shah's Iran time (Rhubarb Dayan visit Iran regularly - lots of football match Iran/Israel) :)


Don't get excited about Alieve/Zionist handshake .. they both use each other for their own reason, not much substance behind it



.
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Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by Ibrahim »

TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
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A Friend Can Be Closer than a Muslim Brother............

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:The reason the Druze decided to cast their lot with the Israelis is because they are a sect that Arabs discriminate against. It is possible that the Druze pilot may have flown in some air strikes not only in Lebanon against Hezbollah, but even against Hamas in Gaza.

The Circassians are also in good shape in Israel, and they too decided to cast their lot with the Israelis, as they find more freedom in Israel, even though unlike the Druze, the Circassians are officially considered Muslim by the Arabs.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators. This is not unprecedented, nor related to "Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century."

The fact that many non-Jews in Israel, especially the pure-Muslim Circassians and the quasi-Muslim Druze cult are not discriminated like the Palestinians is a very important thing about Israel. It shows that if the Palestinians show more tolerance, the Israelis will also reciprocate.
It does not show that at all. It shows that the Israelis will reward those who help them seize and then defend Palestinian Arab land. Siding with and elevating minority groups against the majority population was a standard tactic of British colonialism for 200 years.


As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim,
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim. I fail to see the benefits of this.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
Yes, Israel rewards collaborators.
Why shouldn't the Druse etc. ally with someone who treats them better.......

They remind me a little of the Tlaxcalans....... Smart people.....

Better than having you heart ripped out by your "brothers"........

Better than grinding up the Loyal Millet ;) :twisted:
Indeed, the Settlers will attack a Palestinian Christian as easily as a Palestinian Muslim.
The Israeli Government need to put Penguin Perps/Illegal Settlers on a leash and AIUI is trying to do that.....

Some Christians are more anti-Jewish than some Muslims......

The Israel Government has also allied with Christian elements.... The thing is to be loyal to your friends if they are loyal to you...

Remembering loyal Ittai the Gittite and King David's Palestinian Legion........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itai

Maybe be well for the Rabbis to encourage conversion a bit more......Like they used to do........ There is scripture to support it if needed.....

For the Muslims: Monotheistic like you plus you get to drink booze and the ladies don't have to wear that ugly Muslim wear.........
Don't have to go without water all day long in the hot sun for a freaking month.... Plus we'll give you a tax discount..... Jizya in reverse....
Don't have to bang your head on the ground 5 times a day.......

Having a harder time thinking up a sales spiel for the Christians except for the Tax discount which might be enough by itself :lol: ........
Maybe that for Jews..... Hell is a misdemeanor and not a felony sentence.... Max time in the Slammer 1 year or less.........
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Jnalum Persicum

Re: A Friend Can Be Closer than a Muslim Brother............

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

monster_gardener wrote:.
Ibrahim wrote:.

Yes, Israel rewards collaborators.

.
Why shouldn't the Druse etc. ally with someone who treats them better .......

They remind me a little of the Tlaxcalans ....... Smart people.....

Better than having you heart ripped out by your "brothers"........

.

I do not want to interject myself into that debate

but

Monster

this a proven old strategy of colonialists and invaders (like Zionist)

they give special privileges in different shape to a very small local minority in population .. and .. that minority is more than happy to side with the invaders against their 1000s of yrs old brethren

This standard procedure

British were masters of this trade .. how you think Kuwait, Brunei and and came into being ? how do you think all those India Indians ended up in Africa and in Caribbean

Hitler did that with deadly success in Balkan .. Croatian and and and SS-brigade well known

and and and

would be same if some power would side with African Americans against you guys .. and argue why should the black not to, they treated better than you do treat them

Everywhere there is unhappy minorities thinking they deserve better

in that sense, you wrong


.
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The Mix is In.........

Post by monster_gardener »

Jnalum Persicum wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:.
Ibrahim wrote:.

Yes, Israel rewards collaborators.

.
Why shouldn't the Druse etc. ally with someone who treats them better .......

They remind me a little of the Tlaxcalans ....... Smart people.....

Better than having you heart ripped out by your "brothers"........

.

I do not want to interject myself into that debate

but

Monster

this a proven old strategy of colonialists and invaders (like Zionist)

they give special privileges in different shape to a very small local minority in population .. and .. that minority is more than happy to side with the invaders against their 1000s of yrs old brethren

This standard procedure

British were masters of this trade .. how you think Kuwait, Brunei and and came into being ? how do you think all those India Indians ended up in Africa and in Caribbean

Hitler did that with deadly success in Balkan .. Croatian and and and SS-brigade well known

and and and

would be same if some power would side with African Americans against you guys .. and argue why should the black not to, they treated better than you do treat them

Everywhere there is unhappy minorities thinking they deserve better

in that sense, you wrong


.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

Then it behooves societies to tamp the non-sense down... stupid to tear out hearts or waste money on extra plumbing fixtures....

and/or mongrelize like we Uz do.........

See a lot of it in the clan......

My favorite niece is Black...but her grandmother is White.... and her son is grading toward White again......

Also in Church....... One of the Ministers is Black.... Others including till recently the Senior Minister female..... White Deacon with adopted Black children..........

Yep, The Mix is In ;)
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
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Jnalum Persicum

Re: The Mix is In.........

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

monster_gardener wrote:.

Yep, The Mix is In ;)

.

Come on, Monster, come on

unemployment for young African Americans 80% , many death row prisoners in Texas blacks (and many innocent) and and and .. You guys terrorize them .. poor Rodney King

Remember read a news in California paper : an Iranian had a flat tire on the road, changing tire 2 blacks stop wanting to rob the Iranian, when the Iranian hands over his valet, the blacks see Khomeni picture, they help the Iranian change tire and escort him home :lol:

During American hostages episode, a few friends were in American collages and scared .. very often, blacks came to them offering protection, saying anybody threatening them the blacks would take care of

Minorities always are tyrannized .. needs a high civilization (like Iran) not to .. ask Iranian Jews whether anybody bothering them, no police protection in front of 30+ Tehran very active Synagogues despite BiBi every day before brushing his teeth threatening to bomb Iran .. anybody bothering Iranian Jews ? ? NO .. imagine Iran would threaten to bomb Israel, hell would brake lose .. HITLER wanting a 2nd holocaust :lol:


Come on


.
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The Mix is In... Half Past Mongrel.........

Post by monster_gardener »

Jnalum Persicum wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:.

Yep, The Mix is In ;)

.

Come on, Monster, come on

unemployment for young African Americans 80% , many death row prisoners in Texas blacks (and many innocent) and and and .. You guys terrorize them .. poor Rodney King

Remember read a news in California paper : an Iranian had a flat tire on the road, changing tire 2 blacks stop wanting to rob the Iranian, when the Iranian hands over his valet, the blacks see Khomeni picture, they help the Iranian change tire and escort him home :lol:

During American hostages episode, a few friends were in American collages and scared .. very often, blacks came to them offering protection, saying anybody threatening them the blacks would take care of

Minorities always are tyrannized .. needs a high civilization (like Iran) not to .. ask Iranian Jews whether anybody bothering them, no police protection in front of 30+ Tehran very active Synagogues despite BiBi every day before brushing his teeth threatening to bomb Iran .. anybody bothering Iranian Jews ? ? NO .. imagine Iran would threaten to bomb Israel, hell would brake lose .. HITLER wanting a 2nd holocaust :lol:


Come on


.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.........

Just telling you my clan's experience.......

We are half past hybrid/mongrel....... just like our pet persons both dog and cat.......

We don't always agree politically..... Some are for Romney........ Some are for Obama......... I'm for Johnson........

But we are still family..........

exhY-SU4gmY
Last edited by monster_gardener on Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TurkishJew

Re: Original Palestinian Jews in the 19th Century

Post by TurkishJew »

Jnalum Persicum wrote:
TurkishJew wrote:.

As a digression that is not irrelevant to show that Israel is not anti-Muslim, consider the GREAT relations between Israel and Azerbaijan that is both Muslim and Turkish speaking (never mind AzeriLoveIran insisting that Azeris are of Iranian ancestry and that the Ottomans forced Azeris to learn Turkish, the bottom like is that the Azeri people think they are Turkish).

.

TurkishJew


Are you not astonished Ibrahim never says Shirvan & Arran people are Turks ? ?

I challenged him, asked him, baited him to say so

But he never replied or said so

why you think so ? ?

Because he knows history and you don't

He knows, and I was told by many Turkish elite in Istanbul when I last visited them, that Shirvan & Arran neither Turk nor feel Turk nor say they Turk

Russians and Turks pushing in that direction .. but does not work

As said, in all that space nobody is against Jews, but, everybody against Zionists


And those video clips are no representative of Shirvan & Arran people, they staged by elite .. same as it was in Shah's Iran time (Rhubarb Dayan visit Iran regularly - lots of football match Iran/Israel) :)


Don't get excited about Alieve/Zionist handshake .. they both use each other for their own reason, not much substance behind it



.

My only point was that when Ibrahim said that given the gravity of Israel's crimes, the current anti-Jewish agitation in Turkey (i.e. the transformation of anti-Israel feeling into antisemitism) is "understandable", it was appropriate to show that in Azerbaijan, which is both Muslim and has considerable Turkish influence, the current wars in the Middle East between Israel and Palestinians did not cause an increase in antisemitism. Compare this with the fact that during the last 5 years, 6,000 Turkish Jews out of 23,000 left Turkey due to the new agitation against the Turkish Jews (the ones who are in Turkey were not Zionists, I am an exception due to Ottoman branch of my father's family that lived in Safed and Jerusalem in the past), Even the Mavi Marmara incident which was extensively criticized in Azerbaijan, did not cause an increase in antisemitism against the local Azeri Jewish community.

This was my only point in mentioning Azerbaijan, I did not disagree with your claims that Azeris are of Iranian ancestry, I only emphasized the fact that despite the Muslim background and the Turkish influence in Azerbaijan, the wars between Israel and Palestinians did not cause an increase in antisemitism, basically disproving Ibrahim's claim that the new antisemtism against the Turkish Jewish community is "understandable" in view of the seriousness of Israel's crimes.
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