Turkey

Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:42 pm

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Turkey arrests former military chief


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Turkey has arrested and imprisoned its former army chief, in one of the most dramatic moves in the decade-long struggle between the country’s Islamist-rooted government and the once unassailable military.

Prosecutors allege that Ilker Basbug, who retired as chief of staff in August 2010, led a terrorist organisation and plotted to overthrow the government.

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Ibrahim, you have the mike

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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:28 am

There was a long thread about this over at the old forum. The military veto of Turkish democratic elections is ended. The current Turkish government is able to do this because of their popularity and the economic growth they have delivered for the past decade.


The only people who have a problem with this are those who support dictatorship and oppose any democracy or self-rule for Muslim populations.
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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:41 am

Ibrahim wrote:.

There was a long thread about this over at the old forum. The military veto of Turkish democratic elections is ended. The current Turkish government is able to do this because of their popularity and the economic growth they have delivered for the past decade.


The only people who have a problem with this are those who support dictatorship and oppose any democracy or self-rule for Muslim populations.

.



. . popularity because "economic growth they have delivered for the past decade" ? ?

but, Ibrahim , "economic growth" come and go .. one can not change fundamentals based on that

and

Does it mean, you on Gül/Erdoğan or the Generals bandwagon

and

is there a possibility that certain high position elements in the military are involved in the recent bombing campaign to destabilize Gül/Erdoğan and force a return to business as usual .. maybe the European (secular) Turks now on clash course with Oghuz

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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:57 am

AzariLoveIran wrote:. . popularity because "economic growth they have delivered for the past decade" ? ?

but, Ibrahim , "economic growth" come and go .. one can not change fundamentals based on that


You can change whatever you want if you have enough popular support. The economic growth is one of the reasons that the present government has so much popular support.



Does it mean, you on Gül/Erdoğan or the Generals bandwagon


I'm not on a bandwagon, but I support the principle that the armed forces of any country should be subordinate to the civil government.
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Re: Turkey

Postby Hans Bulvai » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:58 pm

What other reasons are there that a government is popular because it does good for and provides for its people?
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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:49 pm

.
whether, a "system" or "government" is good (or bad) for the people or is popular, shows only in bad times

In good times everybody is popular

meaning

it would be disaster if Turkish government would only be popular because of good economic situation

would mean

if bad times come, and they come from time to time, things could revert to old good days

IMVHO, Turkish Generals did a good job last 70 yrs

Jury still out for Gül/Erdoğan .. not yet sure what they all about .. a bit wobbly

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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:36 pm

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asymmetric Turkish-Iranian “soft” partition of the Arab republics


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NYT

January 5, 2012

In the Arab Spring, Watch Turkey

By JASON PACK and MARTIN VAN CREVELD

During the last decade many right-wing American and Israeli analysts have described the geostrategic struggles unfolding in the Middle East as a new “Cold War” pitting the United States against Shiite Iran. They have warned of an Arab “Shiite Crescent” — stretching from Lebanon to Iraq — connected to Iran via ties of religion, commerce and geostrategy.

The new year has started with an attempted Shiite power play by Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki to dominate the Iraqi government, and an Iranian demonstration of missile and nuclear fuel-rod capacity coupled with threats to close the Straits of Hormuz if Iranian oil exports are blocked.

These events can be interpreted as ample evidence of Iranian expansionism and combined with fears that Iran will obtain a nuclear weapon, rendering its present regime and regional clients untouchable.

What this view of the Middle East overlooks is the fact that both the United States and Iran are mired in internal political and economic difficulties. Simultaneously, inside the region, both are being outmaneuvered by an ascendant Turkey.

Moreover, Western observers have missed the primary thread of events — namely, the ongoing asymmetric Turkish-Iranian “soft” partition of the Arab republics. Concomitantly, the American position as regional hegemon is vanishing. Today, only the Arab monarchies and Israel continue to look to the United States as their primary patron.

To investigate how these changing dynamics are seen by actors within the region, one of us (Jason Pack) spent his Christmas holidays in Erbil, the capital of the Kurdistan Regional Government, or K.R.G., in Iraq. Following the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, K.R.G. officials bemoaned their need of a regional patron to protect them from dominance by Baghdad.

Landlocked Iraqi Kurdistan also needs a conduit to export its oil to the West. The only country that can fulfill both roles is Turkey. That is why K.R.G. officials, instead of supporting their ethnic brethren inside Turkey, have often sided with Ankara against the separatist Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or P.K.K.

All this explains why the bombing on Dec. 28, in which the Turks killed 35 Kurdish smugglers whom they mistook for terrorists, provoked little outrage in Iraqi Kurdistan. On the streets of Erbil there are no signs of protests against Turkey. Instead, one notices Turkey’s ubiquitous presence in the form of construction, investment, consumer goods and tourists.

Should more pipelines leading from Iraqi Kurdistan to the Mediterranean via Turkey be built, the result will be the de facto creation of an Iraqi-Kurdish buffer state. Dependent on Turkey for its survival, such a state would also form a barrier to Iranian (or American, or P.K.K.) interference in Turkish affairs.

In the southern part of Iraq, the situation is just the opposite. There, a Shiite Arab buffer state, buttressed by Iran as a bulwark against Turkish, American or Saudi encroachments, is being created. The last two weeks’ events have removed any doubt that Maliki is “Iran’s man” in Baghdad. Yet despite this de facto partitioning of Iraq over the last month, Turkey and Iran are not challenging each other’s spheres of influence.

In post-Arab Spring North Africa, too, Turkey and Iran have essentially partitioned the resurgent Islamist movements between themselves. The Turks support the victorious “moderate” Islamists from Tunisia to Egypt. Iran backs the Salafist spoilers, even though they are Sunni. In the Egyptian and Tunisian elections, and in Libya’s inter-militia civil strife, both wings of Islamist opinion have supported each other against Western-backed secularists and neo-liberals.

Since North Africa lacks indigenous Shiite populations and the “moderate” Islamists have now emerged as the main players in the region, it is Sunni Turkey, along with Qatar, that appears to be the rising political and commercial patron in North Africa.

Turkey’s approach to the problem of Israel/Palestine has also been converging with that of Iran. From the 1950s until 2002, secular military elites in Ankara enjoyed a privileged political and economic relationship with the West. They also developed intimate defense ties with Israel and NATO.

Since then, however, Turkey has drifted out of the Western security orbit. First it opposed the 2003 Iraq war; next, after the 2010 Gaza flotilla resulted in the death of nine Turks in international waters, it increasingly switched to the Palestinian side of the conflict.

Only in Syria are Turkey and Iran seemingly on opposite sides of a military conflict. Whereas Iran and its client Hezbollah back the Assad regime, the Turks arm, train and provide safe haven to the Syrian rebels. However, this conflict may be more apparent than real. In a fragmented post-Assad Syria, Turkey will support the Sunnis, while Iran will remain the patron of the Alawites. Moreover, both will surely find a way to protect their strategic and financial interests in whatever regime emerges.

Throughout 2011, the continued Western obsession with the Iranian nuclear menace prevented policy makers from grasping the most salient dynamic at play in the new Middle East. Those who, like Mohammed Ayoob of Michigan State University, have warned that “beyond the Arab democratic wave” lies a “Turko-Persian future” have been mostly ignored.

The Arab Spring has vastly weakened the Arab states, leaving them open to fragmentation, increased federalism and outside penetration. With hindsight, 2011 may come to represent as sharp a rupture in the political landscape of the Middle East as 1919 did.

Back then, following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the British and French divided the Arab Middle East among themselves, with Britain as the senior partner. In today’s soft partition of the region, the weaker, less stable partner is Iran. The true victor of the Arab Spring is surely a resurgent Turkey.

Jason Pack researches Libyan history at Cambridge University and is president of Libya-Analysis.com. Martin van Creveld, an Israeli military historian, is the author, most recently, of “The Age of Airpower.”

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And , analysis of NYT article in Turkish papers :


Turkish-Iranian solidarity in the Middle East ?


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Turkish-Iranian solidarity in the Middle East?
Most of the recent articles appearing in Western media about Turkish foreign policy in the context of the Arab Spring refers to two phenomena. The most visible one is the talk about the Turkish model as a source of emulation by the Muslim Brotherhood affiliated parties. The second one refers to the emergence of a Turkish-Iranian “Cold War” in the region.

The most obvious dimensions of this Persian-Turkish rivalry are centered in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon where Turkey seeks to contain and counter Iran’s sectarian support of Shiite groups. One can add to the growing Turkish-Iranian divergence Ankara’s decision to host NATO missile defense radars. Although Ankara has tried hard to deny this fact, NATO missiles are mostly designed to defend Eastern Europe from possible Iranian aggression. It is therefore not surprising that Turkish-Iranian relations have significantly deteriorated in the last few months since Turkey’s pro-NATO decision to host these radars.

Given this obvious Turkish-Iranian divergence, it is not very often that you see articles in the Western media that still talk about a Turkish-Iranian pro-Islamic solidarity in the context of the Arab Spring. I was therefore quite surprised by a recent op-ed in The New York Times by Jason Pack and Martin Van Creveld, who argued that “Western observers have missed the primary thread of events -- namely, the ongoing asymmetric Turkish-Iranian ‘soft’ partition of the Arab republics.”

The article acknowledges that Turkey and Iran are engaged in a rivalry over Iraq, with Tehran maintaining supremacy over Baghdad while Ankara has growing power over Iraqi Kurdistan. But beyond that they maintain that “Turkey and Iran are not challenging each other’s spheres of influence.” They argue that “in post-Arab Spring North Africa, Turkey and Iran have essentially partitioned the resurgent Islamist movements between themselves. The Turks support the victorious ‘moderate’ Islamists from Tunisia to Egypt. Iran backs the Salafist spoilers, even though they are Sunni. In the Egyptian and Tunisian elections, and in Libya’s inter-militia civil strife, both wings of Islamist opinion have supported each other against Western-backed secularists and neo-liberals. Since North Africa lacks indigenous Shiite populations and the ‘moderate’ Islamists have now emerged as the main players in the region, it is Sunni Turkey, along with Qatar, that appears to be the rising political and commercial patron in North Africa.”

Such a view depicting a Turkish-Iranian decision not to challenge each other’s sphere of influence is highly misleading. It is hard to understand why the authors overlook the very obvious Turkish-Iranian rivalry in Syria where Tehran is trying hard to keep the Assad regime in place while Turkey blatantly supports the Syrian opposition. When they finally mention this fact they try to argue that “this conflict may be more apparent than real.” and that “in a fragmented post-Assad Syria, Turkey will support the Sunnis, while Iran will remain the patron of the Alawites. Moreover, both will surely find a way to protect their strategic and financial interests in whatever regime emerges.” So what? This does not change the reality that Turkey and Iran are in opposite camps in Syria. Similarly, Turkey and Iran are in opposite camps when it comes to Lebanon. Turkey is often closer to the Sunni and pro-West Hariri camp, while Iran is the main supporter of Hezbollah.

It was the last section of the op-ed that gave away its main point when it argued that “Turkey’s approach to the problem of Israel/Palestine has also been converging with that of Iran. From the 1950s until 2002, secular military elites in Ankara enjoyed a privileged political and economic relationship with the West. They also developed intimate defense ties with Israel and NATO. Since then, however, Turkey has drifted out of the Western security orbit. First it opposed the 2003 Iraq war; next, after the 2010 Gaza flotilla resulted in the death of nine Turks in international waters, it increasingly switched to the Palestinian side of the conflict.”

Such attempts to put Turkey and Iran in the same “Islamic” camp ignore Ankara’s recent pro-NATO decision concerning missile defense and all of Ankara’s efforts to mediate between Syria and Israel during 2007 and 2008. Can you imagine an Iran that wants peace between Israel and Syria. Yet, this is exactly what the Justice and Development Party (AKP) tried to achieve for two years. A reality check is in order before sweeping arguments about an anti-Israeli Islamic solidarity between Turkey and Iran.

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Ibrahim, you have the mike

.
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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:34 am

AzariLoveIran wrote:IMVHO, Turkish Generals did a good job last 70 yrs


Well, you think the regime in Iran is doing a good job, so we'll just add this to the file.
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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:54 pm

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Turkey is not a model. It is a bubble, and it is bursting . .


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. . if you had invested in the Turkish model (that is, in the Turkish stock market) at the outbreak of the Arab revolts, you would have lost about half your money. If you leave your money in Turkey, you probably will lose the rest of it.

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Turkey isn't democratic, as its volatile Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan reminded the world last week by arresting yet more journalists on trumped-up charges of coup plotting. According to Turkey's Journalists' Union, Turkey has jailed 97 writers, more than China, which no-one confuses with a model democracy.

Nonetheless, Erdogan was Time Magazine's 2011 "Person of the Year". The designation is not necessarily an endorsement. In 1938, Time's Man of the Year was Adolf Hitler. In 1939, it was Joseph Stalin. Like Stalin and Hitler, Erdogan's reputation has been more resilient than the country's stock market.

The West still believes in its own ability to fix all the problems of the world, and cannot abide the thought that success is to be found anywhere in the Muslim world (not counting Malaysia and Indonesia). Now that Libya and Yemen are immersed in tribal warfare,

Egypt is dissolving into chaos, Syria has dug in for a long sectarian bloodbath, and Iraq prepares for an ethno-confessional civil war, Turkey seems a pillar of stability by comparison. Not for long, if my calculations are correct.

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:lol:


David @ it again

don't worry, Ibrahim, we know what's bothering David

but

as said

System & Governement must be fundametaly popular and not popular because of the economy


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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:47 pm

Spengler is totally discredited on all Middle Eastern subjects. He has no eduction of credentials on the subject, no clue what he's talking about, is wrong on most predictions, reverses himself readily and without mention, and maintains a tiny coterie of heinous racist and bigoted scum to tell him he's brilliant.

Anybody still trusting his commentary about the Middle East is too stupid to participate in a conversation about this Middle East.





Spengler wrote:Not for long, if my calculations are correct.


This from the same gnome who "calculated" that Egypt would starve in a month following Mubarak's ouster, and that Iran has been six months away from a nuclear bomb for ten years.
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Re: Turkey

Postby Parodite » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:53 pm

The Meddle East is propelled by madness anyways... so a Spenglerman more or less won't change much of the equation anyways.
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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:59 pm

Parodite wrote:The Meddle East is propelled by madness anyways... so a Spenglerman more or less won't change much of the equation anyways.


A meaningless and questionable comment. You will be hard-pressed to demonstrate that politics in e.g. Turkey is any more "mad" than the US primaries.

Furthermore, nobody is claiming that Spengler would ever change anything. Like all of these unqualified right-wing pop-authors he writes for the converted, telling them things like they to hear (mostly that they are better than the mud people and will defeat them in the end). He's Ann Coulter or Glen Beck with a much smaller audience.
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Re: Turkey

Postby Parodite » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:26 pm

Ibrahim wrote:
Parodite wrote:The Meddle East is propelled by madness anyways... so a Spenglerman more or less won't change much of the equation anyways.


A meaningless and questionable comment. You will be hard-pressed to demonstrate that politics in e.g. Turkey is any more "mad" than the US primaries.


Good point. Hard to quantify madness and identify a winner.

What struck me in Spengler's Recall notice for the Turkish model where he describes the financial down spiralling of Turkey, is that it is not so much different from the crisis in many other countries, included the USA.

Spengler at Atimes wrote:The result is a vicious cycle: excess credit creation weakens the currency, forcing the central bank to put up interest rates; higher interest rates push up the cost of debt service for Turkish borrowers; Turkish banks lend more money to their customers to finance the higher interest costs, so that credit keeps expanding and the currency keeps weakening.

Turkish banks continue to increase lending at a 40% annual rate, but most of the new lending will finance interest payments on the old loans. In Chart 4 below, we simply multiplied the higher interest rate by the amount of outstanding bank loans in order to calculate the total volume of interest payments.

Chart 4: Interest cost explodes as loan bubble meets
higher rates: Interest payments on Turkish lira bank debt

That leads to another perverse result: the banks cannot slow down their lending. After the credit-and-import bubble of 2010 and 2011, the central bank promised that it would cool down bank lending. Now, it appears, the central bank can do no such thing because the banks need to lend customers the money to meet their interest payments. Capitalizing interest is a very, very bad thing.


The above just illustrates that the whole world floats on this bubble. Don't know if Turkey is in bigger danger than other countries; Spengman seems to care a lot and is seriously worried about Turkey.
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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:42 am

Parodite wrote:What struck me in Spengler's Recall notice for the Turkish model where he describes the financial down spiralling of Turkey, is that it is not so much different from the crisis in many other countries, included the USA.



That Turkey would suffer the effects of the 2008 crash, as well as the ongoing financial troubles of various other European Mediterranean countries is not surprising. Nor is Spengler's choice to ignore the fact that his Turkish numbers (culled from his own "company" website) bear no relation whatsoever to the civilian government curbing military authority. Likewise Spengler ignores that there is no question from any serious quarter that the Turkish elections are legitimate, or that the current administration does not have a clear mandate. His lies-by-omission are typical of his propaganda.


The above just illustrates that the whole world floats on this bubble. Don't know if Turkey is in bigger danger than other countries; Spengman seems to care a lot and is seriously worried about Turkey.


He is not "worried" about them, he is hoping/wishing that they collapse. Spengler hates Turkey because it is a Muslim nation (reason enough), and moreover one that is larger and more powerful Muslim nation than Israel and isn't ripping itself apart in civil war. His previous articles on the subject have consist of racist comments about Erdogan personally, just like his anti-Obama rants of some years ago. Long gone are the days when anonymous Spengler and his fans could dream that he was some kind of serious intellectual.
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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:09 am

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Indictment seeks aggravated life imprisonment for ex-military chief

Turkey’s ex-military chief imprisoned on coup charges


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An indictment against former Chief of General Staff retired Gen. İlker Başbuğ has been completed and forwarded to a court, seeking aggravated life imprisonment for the former military chief on coup charges.

Başbuğ was put behind bars by an İstanbul court after he testified last month as a suspect in an investigation into an alleged Internet campaign to discredit Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's Justice and Development Party (AK Party). Turkey has seen some retired generals jailed in coup cases over the past few years, but Gen. Başbuğ, who retired in 2010, is the highest-ranking officer to be caught up so far. Başbuğ was placed in Silivri Prison, where most of the coup suspects have been sent.

The indictment, submitted to the İstanbul 13th High Criminal Court, accuses Başbuğ of “establishing or administering a terrorist organization” and “seeking to unseat the government of the Republic of Turkey by force.” In his defense, Başbuğ denied all the charges against him.

“The person who is accused of these charges is the 26th chief of General Staff of the Turkish Republic. I think it is important to note this for history. As the chief of General Staff, I was the commander of the Turkish Armed Forces [TSK]. The TSK is one of the most respected and strongest armed forces in the world. Accusing somebody who led such an army of establishing and administering a terrorist organization is really tragicomic,” he said.

The investigation in which Başbuğ is implicated concerns allegations that the TSK set up 42 websites to disseminate anti-government propaganda. Dozens of suspects, including Başbuğ, are currently accused of having started an online propaganda campaign against the AK Party with the goal of instilling in the public a fear that the government was attempting to instate a religious order based on Islamic law.

The İstanbul 13th High Criminal Court will now decide on whether to accept the indictment or not.

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Americans doing this .. plan is, in Egypt and Syria and now in Turkey, to destroy the military and install crony Islamist .. to counter our beloved Iran :lol:

Ibrahim, order a few headscarf for the family


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Last edited by AzariLoveIran on Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:31 pm

Why/how would America want/be able to jail Turkish generals and strengthen an "Islamist" government in Turkey?

In what way does this harm the overall capability, let alone existence, of the Turkish (or Egyptian) military?
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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:16 am

Ibrahim wrote:.
AzariLoveIran wrote:.
Does it mean, you on Gül/Erdoğan or the Generals bandwagon
.


I'm not on a bandwagon, but I support the principle that the armed forces of any country should be subordinate to the civil government.

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"support the principle that the armed forces of any country should be subordinate to the civil government" not Kamalist school .. Ataturk made Armed Forces guarantor keeping Islam out of Turkey, out of government

Last few yrs debating, I mistake thinkin you Kamalist school

well, things seems changing

Headscarf, here we come


Ibrahim wrote:.
Why/how would America want/be able to jail Turkish generals and strengthen an "Islamist" government in Turkey ?
.


Turkish people I talk, say America pushing soft-Islam on Turkey .. to make Turkey a counter balance to Iran

yes, pretty much silly and dangerous game .. things could go easily out of control


Ibrahim wrote:.
In what way does this harm the overall capability, let alone existence, of the Turkish (or Egyptian) military ?
.


Turkish military is based on secular principle .. Islamizing it will lead to a different ball game


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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:57 pm

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The Iranian-Turkish struggle for Syria


a superficial analysis, wrong and besides the real issue

Syria, and all other "Arab Speaking" countries, Egypt, Lebanon etc etc .. must chose between "sovereign decision" for revival of their post Ottoman future (Iran approach) .. or .. fall into Ottoman/Nato/west dominance losing their culture and civilization (Turkish approach)

Decision is Syrian people's


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AzariLoveIran
 

IMVHO We US can be that stupid

Postby monster_gardener » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:29 pm

Ibrahim wrote:Why/how would America want/be able to jail Turkish generals and strengthen an "Islamist" government in Turkey?

In what way does this harm the overall capability, let alone existence, of the Turkish (or Egyptian) military?


Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

I am sad to say it, but IMVHO sometimes some of US can be that stupid.........

Remembering Jimmy Carter...... Thought he was supporting a "Holy Man", Ayatollah Khomeini, against a dictator, the Shah.
Then Carter made matters worse by letting the Shah come here for medical treatments and lost any minimal tolerance we MIGHT have gotten from Khomeini....and Iranians in general.

Given the Mossadegh history they assumed we/US were conspiring with the Shah* leading to the Embassy takeover and all the nastiness since then......... costing lives for both Iran and US..........

Would have been better to either support the Shah or if not, not to deal with him again........

That's my memory of the period.........

There are other examples........... George W. Bush........... & quite frankly I don't trust Obama......... the ability of Congress to control the declaration of war is slipping fast.......... Obama can be shamed into doing something he doesn't want to do while disobeying the applicable law on war powers....

*IIRC wrongly....... Shah was at death's door probably from all the stress, cancer etc..........
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Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:34 pm

Turkey is backing the Syrian revolutionaries for moral reasons, Iran is backing the Assad regime for practical reasons (as their link to Hezbollah). That's all it comes down to. Invoking the Ottomans is stupid nonsense.
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Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:09 pm

Ibrahim wrote:.

Turkey is backing the Syrian revolutionaries for moral reasons, Iran is backing the Assad regime for practical reasons (as their link to Hezbollah). That's all it comes down to. Invoking the Ottomans is stupid nonsense.

.



Morality never played any role in politics, that since 10,000 yrs

Zero role

Iran and Turkey represent different blue print for future for that space .. different model for "New Middle East"

Iran has always protected Lebanese Shia population, started 1950's with Shah/Ayatollah Mussa Sadr

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AzariLoveIran
 

Morality can play a major role.. Sometime result good, some

Postby monster_gardener » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:27 am

AzariLoveIran wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:.

Turkey is backing the Syrian revolutionaries for moral reasons, Iran is backing the Assad regime for practical reasons (as their link to Hezbollah). That's all it comes down to. Invoking the Ottomans is stupid nonsense.

.



Morality never played any role in politics, that since 10,000 yrs

Zero role

Iran and Turkey represent different blue print for future for that space .. different model for "New Middle East"

Iran has always protected Lebanese Shia population, started 1950's with Shah/Ayatollah Mussa Sadr

.



Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

Morality never played any role in politics, that since 10,000 yrs

Zero role


With all due respect Azari, don't you frequently cite how "humanitat" is a part of Iranian politics and culture.......

Here in the US too........ Jimmy Carter......... Herbert Hoover.........

Even in England .......... William Wilberforce's crusade against the slave trade........

Sometimes "morality" tries to achieve aims I would say were good ....... sometimes with success as with Wilberforce......

Other times disastrously as Carter with Iran.........

Though Carter may have had success elsewhere: remember reading that Jimmy Carter drove the Military Juntas in Latin America crazy with his human rights meme... Slowed the killing down a bit.........

Need to define word though: Example is Salafi morality good........

Is US/Athenian morality/push for democracy good............ IMHO that depends......... culture ... conditions ....... is it affordable..

I may be wrong....
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Re: Morality can play a major role.. Sometime result good, s

Postby AzariLoveIran » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:10 am

monster_gardener wrote:.
AzariLoveIran wrote:.
Ibrahim wrote:.

Turkey is backing the Syrian revolutionaries for moral reasons, Iran is backing the Assad regime for practical reasons (as their link to Hezbollah). That's all it comes down to. Invoking the Ottomans is stupid nonsense.

.



Morality never played any role in politics, that since 10,000 yrs

Zero role

Iran and Turkey represent different blue print for future for that space .. different model for "New Middle East"

Iran has always protected Lebanese Shia population, started 1950's with Shah/Ayatollah Mussa Sadr

.



Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

Morality never played any role in politics, that since 10,000 yrs

Zero role

.


With all due respect Azari, don't you frequently cite how "humanitat" is a part of Iranian politics and culture.......

Here in the US too........ Jimmy Carter......... Herbert Hoover.........

Even in England .......... William Wilberforce's crusade against the slave trade........

Sometimes "morality" tries to achieve aims I would say were good ....... sometimes with success as with Wilberforce......

Other times disastrously as Carter with Iran.........

Though Carter may have had success elsewhere: remember reading that Jimmy Carter drove the Military Juntas in Latin America crazy with his human rights meme... Slowed the killing down a bit.........

Need to define word though: Example is Salafi morality good........

Is US/Athenian morality/push for democracy good............ IMHO that depends......... culture ... conditions ....... is it affordable..

I may be wrong...

.



Monster ,

civilization & culture encompass " Humanität " .. not politics

Politics is the art of lying and deceit .. lying and fooling Joe

Elite fighting the other other elite .. both sides, elites, know what the fight is for

foot soldier, Joe, paying with blood and treasure when all done

Politics is the art of fooling Joe

Wars of last 5000 yrs were not for what the elite said they were for .. they were neither for religion, nor for freedom, nor for democracy, nor for justice

that is the art of politics

.
AzariLoveIran
 

Re: Turkey

Postby AzariLoveIran » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:57 pm

.

. . reports from Tehran indicate that compared to two years ago, when Iran trusted Turkey enough to consider inking an agreement with it, together with Brazil, that called for Turkey's safekeeping of Iran's enriched uranium, today a good deal of that trust has disappeared, replaced with a growing Iran disquiet about Turkey's perceived ill intentions toward Syria and, indirectly, Iran.


Turkey tried a Trojan Horse on our beloved Persia


.
The perceived excesses of Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, who has boldly stated that the "military option" on Syria is now on the table, have moved Tehran in the opposite direction.
.

.
"The neo-Ottomanist Davutoglu has crossed the line with his hawkish line against Syria, which simply means that Turkey is acting as a NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] pawn in the Middle East, and therefore he should not be rewarded by hosting the Iran negotiations in Istanbul," says a Tehran University political science professor who prefers to remain anonymous.
.



:lol: :lol:


Ibrahim, all bets are off

and

forget Baku , Azerbaijan is ours


.





.
AzariLoveIran
 

Re: Turkey

Postby Ibrahim » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:19 pm

The issue here is Syria. Turkey opposes the Assad regime, like all sane people in the world do. Iran wants stability in Syria to maintain their line of supply to their client terrorist organization, Hezbollah.

If Turkey acts directly against Assad Iran won't do anything but complain. They have enough problems at the moment.
Ibrahim
 
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