Turkey

[Carbizene]

That's a good place to start in studying its history, but a political party or organization can change over time.

Sure but not Fundamentalist Religious organisations, they have already gone back on their word by naming a Presidential candidate and anybody who believes they will not do away with elections once they gain power is just a sucker. Obama doesn't care about Democracy in Egypt as proven by the fact he was quite happy to give a billion a year to Mubarak prior to the bad PR.

Don't really understand what you're arguing here. Qtub is a prude who thinks western women dress like prostitutes. If he then said "water is wet, the sky is blue" would those statements be wrong?

a fortiori is a mechanism for saving time, it saves one from having to engage in long-winded arguments by simply negating all following statements and the debate is settled on the weakness of the initial statement, so while Qutb may say that the sky is blue, he is ignored due to his opening weak statement. I like the process as it makes it easier avoid going down Rabbit holes.

Anyway none of this proves or even argue that the Muslim Brotherhood is analogous to Al Qaeda, as was your claim.

Qutb wanted a Caliphate as did OBL, thats a pretty fundamental similarity.

[Ibrahim]

That's a good place to start in studying its history, but a political party or organization can change over time.

Sure but not Fundamentalist Religious organisations,

Sure they can. Simple example, an organization can adopt, or desist from, using violence as part of their methodology. A major change which doesn't not require deviating from their policy goals at all.

anybody who believes they will not do away with elections once they gain power is just a sucker.

Your solution to this possible outcome being to never have an election in the first place. Brilliant.

Obama doesn't care about Democracy in Egypt as proven by the fact he was quite happy to give a billion a year to Mubarak prior to the bad PR.

Again, it seems like you favor never getting it right to getting it right at the last minute.

Don't really understand what you're arguing here. Qtub is a prude who thinks western women dress like prostitutes. If he then said "water is wet, the sky is blue" would those statements be wrong?

a fortiori is

I know what the term means, it's your argument that I cannot follow.

Anyway none of this proves or even argue that the Muslim Brotherhood is analogous to Al Qaeda, as was your claim.

Qutb wanted a Caliphate as did OBL, thats a pretty fundamental similarity.

You didn't even demonstrate the former. You can actually probably dig up some quote somewhere where he does, but you didn't even bother to try. You digressed into his prudery.

The comparison is pretty weak, as I think you realize, hence the digressions. One is a known terrorist who killed thousands, the other wrote books and spent time in jail for complaining about the government.

[Carbizene]

Sure they can. Simple example, an organization can adopt, or desist from, using violence as part of their methodology. A major change which doesn't not require deviating from their policy goals at all.

Interesting that you choose to ignore the Brotherhood already going back on their word.

[Ibrahim]

Sure they can. Simple example, an organization can adopt, or desist from, using violence as part of their methodology. A major change which doesn't not require deviating from their policy goals at all.

Interesting that you choose to ignore the Brotherhood already going back on their word.

My quote above was to rebut your assertion that a fundamentalist organization cannot change. How is this comment related to it?

[Carbizene]

Fundamentalists don't change, thats why they are called Fundamentalists, they do lie though as proven by the Brotherhoods lie that they would not run a Presidential candidate.

[Ibrahim]

Fundamentalists don't change, thats why they are called Fundamentalists,

You are not presenting any arguments, you are just repeating your assertion. The example I cited previously applied to the Egyptian MB, and

they do lie though as proven by the Brotherhoods lie that they would not run a Presidential candidate.

At what point does changing your mind become a lie? Also, this is not related to your initial assertion.

[Carbizene]

oh ffs...so politicians can renege on promises and it's cool because they are just changing their mind...what are you? some MB aparatchik or something? because you just lost the argument with such a bankruptly corrupt suggestion.

[Ibrahim]

oh ffs...so politicians can renege on promises and it's cool because they are just changing their mind...what are you? some MB aparatchik or something? because you just lost the argument with such a bankruptly corrupt suggestion.

You have yet to actually argue for any of your assertions.

[Mr. Perfect]

what are you? some MB aparatchik or something?

bing bing bing bing bing!

Welcome to the ib zone!

[Parodite]

At what point does changing your mind become a lie?

When it was premeditated.

[Carbizene]

You have yet to actually argue for any of your assertions.

I make no assertions regarding MB's promise not to run a Presidential candidate, that is fact, it is also fact that they are now running a candidate. In the normal zone this is considered a broken promise. There is no argument to be had.

[monster_gardener]

Fundamentalists don't change, thats why they are called Fundamentalists, they do lie though as proven by the Brotherhoods lie that they would not run a Presidential candidate.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.

IMO people should be very skeptical of fundamentalist organizations, especially ones like the Muslim Brotherhood etc......... Once a reputation is gained, it will continue to attract people who like that sort of thing..... religious policeman wannabes control freaks

Even a change in tactics can be JUST a change in tactics.......... 'instead of violence, we now use the ballot box but we still aim at a society where the BOOK/BOOKS is/are the absolute, to the letter of the law, Law of the Land......... And the first election that we win will be likely the LAST real election..........

If they really want to change.......... at least a name change is in order........... Still best to be suspicious........

This applies to dangerous Christian fanatic movements like Gary North/Rushdoony's Christian Reconstructionism/Christian Dominionism and quasi secular types like as Communists and Nazis as well Muslim fanatics like the Muslim Brotherhood & Al Queda.........

BUT...........

In my experience, individual Fundamentalists, can and do change. I was once a Christian Fundie ......... many years ago.....

There are other examples, recalling a group called Fundamentalists Anonymous years ago...

Even Muslim Fundamentalists can change..... Recalling a story IIRC about a son of a HAMAS leader who became a Christian..... at last report in hiding for his life..... a reason that Islam is so resistant to change....... Apostates often killed ***........

Sometimes believers go from one Ism to another.........

Other times the intensity abates or is diluted into several pursuits sometimes at odds with each other...**** AND just "real life" itself.......... a job where your job is NOT being a fanatic.....


Erich Hoffer, the Longshoreman Philosopher, has an excellent book, "The True Believer" on the topic of fanatics/fundies.......*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

Bart D. Erhman is another author useful as an antidote for Christian Fundamentalism....**

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_Ehrman



*

The book analyzes and attempts to explain the motives of the various types of personalities that give rise to mass movements; why and how mass movements start, progress and end; and the similarities between them, whether religious, political, radical or reactionary. As examples, the book often refers to Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Christianity, Protestantism, and Islam. Hoffer believes that mass movements are interchangeable, that adherents will often flip from one movement to another, and that the motivations for mass movements are interchangeable; that religious, nationalist and social movements, whether radical or reactionary, tend to attract the same type of followers, behave in the same way and use the same tactics, even when their stated goals or values differed.

There have been 23 editions of The True Believer published between 1951 and 2002.
[edit] Summary

Hoffer argues that all mass movements such as fascism, communism, and religion spread by promising a glorious future. To be successful, these mass movements need the adherents to be willing to sacrifice themselves and others for the future goals. To do so, mass movements often glorify the past and devalue the present. Mass movements appeal to frustrated people who are dissatisfied with their current state, but are capable of a strong belief in the future. As well, mass movements appeal to people who want to escape a flawed self by creating an imaginary self and joining a collective whole. Some categories of people who may be attracted to mass movements include poor people, misfits, former soldiers, and people who feel thwarted in their endeavors. Hoffer quotes extensively from leaders of the Nazi and communist parties in the early part of the 20th century, to demonstrate, among other things, that they were competing for adherents from the same pool of people predisposed to support mass movements. Despite the two parties' fierce antagonism, they were more likely to gain recruits from their opposing party than from moderates with no affiliation to either.

The book also explores the behavior of mass movements once they become established (or leave the "active phase"). With their collapse of a communal framework people can no longer defeat the feelings of insecurity and uncertainty by belonging to a compact whole. If the isolated individual lacks vast opportunities for personal advancement, development of talents, and action (such as those found on a frontier), he will seek substitutes. These substitutes would be pride instead of self-confidence, memberships in a collective whole like a mass movement, absolute certainty instead of understanding.

Hoffer does not take an exclusively negative view of "true believers" and the mass movements they begin. Examples he gives of positive true believers are Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi.

** Islam needs many Bart Ehrmans but if they existed they would likely be quickly killed.......... Fun to imagine Bart Simpson trashing various Muslim bad guys going back to ........... Bart's Excellent Adventure......

*** A special reason to oppose Christian Dominionists like Gary North/Rushdoony......... Death to apostates......... I still consider myself a Christian but I have some doubts that North would ........ Could be better for me to be in some but not all Muslim territories than in North territory as long I stuck to gardening and Astronomy and kept my mouth shut about Islam........ even if I got slapped around paying the protection money/Jiyza.......... Recalling Christians fleeing other Christians to Ottoman Turkey....... IIRC east Euro Protestants who became famous for their wild pig/boar hunts.... OTOH what happened to the Armenians......

****For example Gardening, astronomy/space exploration, art, anime/cartoons , photography, computers, fantasy books/role playing games, Buddhism/Kwannon, the internet, pets.........

[Ibrahim]

You have yet to actually argue for any of your assertions.

I make no assertions regarding MB's promise not to run a Presidential candidate, that is fact, it is also fact that they are now running a candidate. In the normal zone this is considered a broken promise. There is no argument to be had.

This is the latest in a string of many different subjects you have made assertions about then abandoned in sequence. It starting with Lord of War and the Syrian opposition being "Wahhabists," and you keep saying different, unrelated things every time you are corrected. At last you've hit on something that did happen. The Muslim Brotherhood said they wouldn't ruin a candidate, then did. How this is related to the many incorrect assertions prior to this is unclear.

[Carbizene]

Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.

IMO people should be very skeptical of fundamentalist organizations, especially ones like the Muslim Brotherhood etc......... Once a reputation is gained, it will continue to attract people who like that sort of thing..... religious policeman wannabes control freaks

Even a change in tactics can be JUST a change in tactics.......... 'instead of violence, we now use the ballot box but we still aim at a society where the BOOK/BOOKS is/are the absolute, to the letter of the law, Law of the Land......... And the first election that we win will be likely the LAST real election..........

If they really want to change.......... at least a name change is in order........... Still best to be suspicious........

This applies to dangerous Christian fanatic movements like Gary North/Rushdoony's Christian Reconstructionism/Christian Dominionism and quasi secular types like as Communists and Nazis as well Muslim fanatics like the Muslim Brotherhood & Al Queda.........

BUT...........

In my experience, individual Fundamentalists, can and do change. I was once a Christian Fundie ......... many years ago.....

There are other examples, recalling a group called Fundamentalists Anonymous years ago...

Even Muslim Fundamentalists can change..... Recalling a story IIRC about a son of a HAMAS leader who became a Christian..... at last report in hiding for his life..... a reason that Islam is so resistant to change....... Apostates often killed ***........

Sometimes believers go from one Ism to another.........

Other times the intensity abates or is diluted into several pursuits sometimes at odds with each other...**** AND just "real life" itself.......... a job where your job is NOT being a fanatic.....


Erich Hoffer, the Longshoreman Philosopher, has an excellent book, "The True Believer" on the topic of fanatics/fundies.......*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

Bart D. Erhman is another author useful as an antidote for Christian Fundamentalism....**

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_Ehrman



*

The book analyzes and attempts to explain the motives of the various types of personalities that give rise to mass movements; why and how mass movements start, progress and end; and the similarities between them, whether religious, political, radical or reactionary. As examples, the book often refers to Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Christianity, Protestantism, and Islam. Hoffer believes that mass movements are interchangeable, that adherents will often flip from one movement to another, and that the motivations for mass movements are interchangeable; that religious, nationalist and social movements, whether radical or reactionary, tend to attract the same type of followers, behave in the same way and use the same tactics, even when their stated goals or values differed.

There have been 23 editions of The True Believer published between 1951 and 2002.
[edit] Summary

Hoffer argues that all mass movements such as fascism, communism, and religion spread by promising a glorious future. To be successful, these mass movements need the adherents to be willing to sacrifice themselves and others for the future goals. To do so, mass movements often glorify the past and devalue the present. Mass movements appeal to frustrated people who are dissatisfied with their current state, but are capable of a strong belief in the future. As well, mass movements appeal to people who want to escape a flawed self by creating an imaginary self and joining a collective whole. Some categories of people who may be attracted to mass movements include poor people, misfits, former soldiers, and people who feel thwarted in their endeavors. Hoffer quotes extensively from leaders of the Nazi and communist parties in the early part of the 20th century, to demonstrate, among other things, that they were competing for adherents from the same pool of people predisposed to support mass movements. Despite the two parties' fierce antagonism, they were more likely to gain recruits from their opposing party than from moderates with no affiliation to either.

The book also explores the behavior of mass movements once they become established (or leave the "active phase"). With their collapse of a communal framework people can no longer defeat the feelings of insecurity and uncertainty by belonging to a compact whole. If the isolated individual lacks vast opportunities for personal advancement, development of talents, and action (such as those found on a frontier), he will seek substitutes. These substitutes would be pride instead of self-confidence, memberships in a collective whole like a mass movement, absolute certainty instead of understanding.

Hoffer does not take an exclusively negative view of "true believers" and the mass movements they begin. Examples he gives of positive true believers are Abraham Lincoln and Gandhi.

** Islam needs many Bart Ehrmans but if they existed they would likely be quickly killed.......... Fun to imagine Bart Simpson trashing various Muslim bad guys going back to ........... Bart's Excellent Adventure......

*** A special reason to oppose Christian Dominionists like Gary North/Rushdoony......... Death to apostates......... I still consider myself a Christian but I have some doubts that North would ........ Could be better for me to be in some but not all Muslim territories than in North territory as long I stuck to gardening and Astronomy and kept my mouth shut about Islam........ even if I got slapped around paying the protection money/Jiyza.......... Recalling Christians fleeing other Christians to Ottoman Turkey....... IIRC east Euro Protestants who became famous for their wild pig/boar hunts.... OTOH what happened to the Armenians......

****For example Gardening, astronomy/space exploration, art, anime/cartoons , photography, computers, fantasy books/role playing games, Buddhism/Kwannon, the internet, pets.........

Thankyou for your rational and insightful post MG and for your personal revelation on what sort of a stake/experience you have in this discussion. I see what you are saying about how an individual can change. I too have changed in ways that make me more flexible to different situations but I have also solidified certain positions that cause me to reject certain activities as I now know with more certainty where certain traits will lead.

In the case of the MB, the idea that the UZ will be giving it a billion every year for arms strikes me as the same sort of insanity that led the CIA to train OBL and fund the Taliban, what happened to a thing called foresight? but I keep coming back to these ploys really having nothing to do with Social policy and solely Arms sales, unfortunately.

[Carbizene]

You have yet to actually argue for any of your assertions.

I make no assertions regarding MB's promise not to run a Presidential candidate, that is fact, it is also fact that they are now running a candidate. In the normal zone this is considered a broken promise. There is no argument to be had.

This is the latest in a string of many different subjects you have made assertions about then abandoned in sequence. It starting with Lord of War and the Syrian opposition being "Wahhabists," and you keep saying different, unrelated things every time you are corrected. At last you've hit on something that did happen. The Muslim Brotherhood said they wouldn't ruin a candidate, then did. How this is related to the many incorrect assertions prior to this is unclear.

ALI only just posted an article on the Jihadist element of the situation in Syria that you conveniently ignored.

My example of 'Lord of War' is perfectly salient as unknown entities are running guns through Turkey to the non-Governmental forces in Syria, it is highly unlikely that the Turkish Government is supplying arms thus it is most likely a person like 'Yuri Orlov' doing the deals. Arms have to be bought somewhere, they don't just magically appear.

As for me introducing new areas, that is because you continually choose to ignore my points thus I move onto another as endlessly repeating the same thing is for nutcases. For example you repeatedly ignored my observation that the spokesman for the uprising in Libya in the early stages had a prayer wound on his head, he was then replaced to distance the fundy element, you paid no regard to this observation so now I say it again for a third time.

The discussion broadened out to involve the Brotherhood as an example of what may befall Syria should Assad go.

I had to keep myself from laughing at your implications that the Brotherhood is not a fundamentalist organisation, all they are doing is offering up pleasantries so the UZ can keep posting the cash in comfortable delusion. The suggestion they have rejected the ideals of Qutb is up there with Chamberlains trust on the naive scale.

[noddy]

if the egyptians are a magority of authoritarian fundies why cant they have a authoritarian fundie government ?

dont have to go that far back into our history to find simmilar, this lavender changes interally and generationally and the opinions of outsiders are irrelevent.

[noddy]

qutb should have been a mills n boon writer with saucy prose like that.

Qtub's wide-eyes shock and horror at jazz-age American society is basically hilarious to the modern reader. He sounds like an 80-year-old granny who goes to Mass every day of the week. The guy was way too pent up.

i know who qutb is, just hadnt bothered investigating his writing.

"The American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs — and she shows all this and does not hide it."

this is loin stirrring and reads like d h lawrence, more aking to prudish americans talking about euro chickies.. it surprises me... no wonder so many arab kids hit the west with high hopes and get dissapointed.

[Carbizene]

if the egyptians are a magority of authoritarian fundies why cant they have a authoritarian fundie government ?

dont have to go that far back into our history to find simmilar, this lavender changes interally and generationally and the opinions of outsiders are irrelevent.

Sure, my criticism of the election being rushed through is irrelevant and if Egypt wants to be a fundie state then good luck to them. The funny thing will be the UZ giving them a billion a year for arms.

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Sure, my criticism of the election being rushed through is irrelevant and if Egypt wants to be a fundie state then good luck to them.

The funny thing will be the UZ giving them a billion a year for arms.

.

Everywhere, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria (and Iraq ), Muslims taking over from secular leaders, with Western help

strange phenomena : seems Islam's best friends are Sarko, Cameron, Zionist, Obama and and and

and

Iran's enemies, one by one, are eliminated, by America .. Saddam gone, Taliban gone, Mubarak gone, Qaddafi gone .. Persian Golf and Saudi are next


.

[AzariLoveIran]

.


Ibrahim :


The trouble with this Turkish perspective is that it is built on a house of illusions, the fanciful thought that somehow other countries will forgive Turkey's sailing along in the US-led ship of hegemonic and coercive policies in the region, simply because Turkey has mastered the art of diplomatic double-speak



.

[Ibrahim]

As for me introducing new areas, that is because you continually choose to ignore my points

Clearly false, and anyone reading this thread can see.

ALI only just posted an article on the Jihadist element of the situation in Syria that you conveniently ignored.

Your position, which I corrected, was that the Syrian opposition consisted of "Wahhabis." You didn't seem to know any details of the situation, or who constituted the majority of the opposition.

For example you repeatedly ignored my observation that the spokesman for the uprising in Libya in the early stages had a prayer wound on his head, he was then replaced to distance the fundy element, you paid no regard to this observation so now I say it again for a third time.

Also false. You made some statements about scarred foreheads and cults, and when asked for clarification you changed the subject.

My example of 'Lord of War' is perfectly salient as unknown entities are running guns through Turkey to the non-Governmental forces in Syria, it is highly unlikely that the Turkish Government is supplying arms thus it is most likely a person like 'Yuri Orlov' doing the deals. Arms have to be bought somewhere, they don't just magically appear.

It has already been explained to you that the opposition forces in Syria consist mostly of defecting military (FSA). As a dictatorship and police state, Syria has plenty of weapons already inside the country. If you have any evidence about large scale import of weapons by arms traders, please provide it.

The discussion broadened out to involve the Brotherhood as an example of what may befall Syria should Assad go.

Yes, after abandoning your other points without arguing, you started talking about the Muslim Brotherhood, comparing them to Bin Laden, before finally settling on the only factual statement you have made so far: the said they would not, and then did, run a candidate for President.

You have also declined to answer what you think should happen in Egypt. They voted, and you don't like how they voted, so...?

I had to keep myself from laughing at your implications that the Brotherhood is not a fundamentalist organisation,

To claim that this is my position is false. Quote me.

all they are doing is offering up pleasantries so the UZ can keep posting the cash in comfortable delusion.

Possibly. What do you want to do about it?

The suggestion they have rejected the ideals of Qutb is up there with Chamberlains trust on the naive scale

What do you think "the ideals of Qtub" are, in terms of governance? You only posted an excerpt of him complaining about Western women being immodest. This isn't exactly a plan for government.

[Carbizene]

It has already been explained to you that the opposition forces in Syria consist mostly of defecting military (FSA). As a dictatorship and police state, Syria has plenty of weapons already inside the country. If you have any evidence about large scale import of weapons by arms traders, please provide it.

It has already been explained to you by the BBC article that I linked to that some non-Governmental forces have run out of munitions, (so much for your proposal of plenty of weapons in country) and are waiting for supplies brought through Turkey. It is highly unlikely Turkey would be selling these munitions thus most likely it is a non-Government arms dealer.

You have also declined to answer what you think should happen in Egypt. They voted, and you don't like how they voted, so...?

I think there should have been a longer period before the election that would have allowed other groups to evolve to be ready for election. Now the MB is in power the billions should be withdrawn.

To claim that this is my position is false. Quote me.

"fundamenatist organisations can change"

all they are doing is offering up pleasantries so the UZ can keep posting the cash in comfortable delusion.

Possibly. What do you want to do about it?

Don't give them the billions. easy. Then see how popular the Brotherhood is.

What do you think "the ideals of Qtub" are, in terms of governance? You only posted an excerpt of him complaining about Western women being immodest. This isn't exactly a plan for government.

Caliphate, as I already posted.

[Carbizene]

Everywhere, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria (and Iraq ), Muslims taking over from secular leaders, with Western help

strange phenomena : seems Islam's best friends are Sarko, Cameron, Zionist, Obama and and and

and

Iran's enemies, one by one, are eliminated, by America .. Saddam gone, Taliban gone, Mubarak gone, Qaddafi gone .. Persian Golf and Saudi are next


.

Truly bizarre, my theory is that as the Abrahamic ideology fades in the West, it's protectors are seeking to keep it alive by trying to create existential threats that generally encourage people back into it's fold, as seen in the jump in Abrahamic propaganda house attendance after 9/11.

[Ibrahim]

It has already been explained to you that the opposition forces in Syria consist mostly of defecting military (FSA). As a dictatorship and police state, Syria has plenty of weapons already inside the country. If you have any evidence about large scale import of weapons by arms traders, please provide it.

It has already been explained to you by the BBC article that I linked to that some non-Governmental forces have run out of munitions, (so much for your proposal of plenty of weapons in country) and are waiting for supplies brought through Turkey. It is highly unlikely Turkey would be selling these munitions thus most likely it is a non-Government arms dealer.

So that's your theory, based on having watched a Nicholas Cage movie, and despite the fact that Turkey is already acknowledging giving the FSA "non-lethal" supplies.

You have also declined to answer what you think should happen in Egypt. They voted, and you don't like how they voted, so...?

I think there should have been a longer period before the election that would have allowed other groups to evolve to be ready for election. Now the MB is in power the billions should be withdrawn.

How long would you wait, and what if the MB won anyway (which they almost certainly would have)? Your problem is that Egyptians don't want what you want.

I had to keep myself from laughing at your implications that the Brotherhood is not a fundamentalist organisation,

To claim that this is my position is false. Quote me.

"fundamenatist organisations can change"

Which means that fundamentalist organizations can change policies. Not that the MB is not fundamentalist.

This is obvious to the point that I think you are being intentionally deceptive in order to conceal your lack of argumentation or focus.

all they are doing is offering up pleasantries so the UZ can keep posting the cash in comfortable delusion.

Possibly. What do you want to do about it?

Don't give them the billions. easy. Then see how popular the Brotherhood is.

They were popular for decades without receiving US aid. But you do understand that the current $1.3 billion is for food, fuel, medical and development aid, right? That your plan is to deny some kid medicine because his parents voted in a free election.

What do you think "the ideals of Qtub" are, in terms of governance? You only posted an excerpt of him complaining about Western women being immodest. This isn't exactly a plan for government.

Caliphate, as I already posted.

Yes, you said that. You never supported that claim in any way, but you did say it.

[Carbizene]

So that's your theory, based on having watched a Nicholas Cage movie, and despite the fact that Turkey is already acknowledging giving the FSA "non-lethal" supplies.

errr..we talking about arms and for the third time the BBC article says arms are to be transported through Turkey, which does not acknowledge selling them.

By the way 'Lord of War' is a true story and a good movie as it turns out.

How long would you wait, and what if the MB won anyway (which they almost certainly would have)? Your problem is that Egyptians don't want what you want.

Long enough for a reasonable number of options to say they are ready, which alot of groups said they weren't, hence the walk outs that ALI posted about.

Not that the MB is not fundamentalist.

hooray

They were popular for decades without receiving US aid. But you do understand that the current $1.3 billion is for food, fuel, medical and development aid, right? That your plan is to deny some kid medicine because his parents voted in a free election

.

ahh..maybe not so much hooray..

http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorial ... 99055.html

Yes, you said that. You never supported that claim in any way, but you did say it.

ohh ffs...I posted a link about Qutb's Caliphate aspirations and you really don't know lavender about Qutb if you think he was Democratic. The fundamental principle from the Greeks thousands of years ago to Democracy is separation of Superstition and State.