Iraq

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Ibrahim
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:Mubarack isn't there anymore due to a Iraq invasion inspired Arab Spring.
Blatant falsehood. The Egyptian revolution was inspired by the Tunisian revolution, which was started by youth educated in Europe. Not to mention that the Egyptians had been battling the Mubarak regime for decades, which the US paid the Egyptian military to kill,detain, and torture Egyptians. Prior to Obama coming out in support for the revolution everything the US did in Egypt had been to prevent a revolution from happening. These are all facts.

If you're so desperate to claim credit for America to try and patch up its destroyed reputation, I'd focus on silicon valley. Twitter and Facebook did far more for the Egyptian revultion than the failures and war criminals of the US military.
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Doc
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Mubarack isn't there anymore due to a Iraq invasion inspired Arab Spring.
Blatant falsehood. The Egyptian revolution was inspired by the Tunisian revolution, which was started by youth educated in Europe. Not to mention that the Egyptians had been battling the Mubarak regime for decades, which the US paid the Egyptian military to kill,detain, and torture Egyptians. Prior to Obama coming out in support for the revolution everything the US did in Egypt had been to prevent a revolution from happening. These are all facts.

If you're so desperate to claim credit for America to try and patch up its destroyed reputation, I'd focus on silicon valley. Twitter and Facebook did far more for the Egyptian revultion than the failures and war criminals of the US military.
Intellectual virginity is not a virtue.

It was still a called shot.

http://www.warincontext.org/2003_02_01_ ... l#90309416
After Iraq
The plan to remake the Middle East
Nicholas Lemann, The New Yorker, February 10, 2003

Has a war ever been as elaborately justified in advance as the coming war with Iraq? Because this war is not being undertaken in direct response to a single shattering event (it's been nearly a year and a half since the September 11th attacks), and because the possibility of military action against Saddam Hussein has been Washington's main preoccupation for the better part of a year, the case for war has grown so large and variegated that its very multiplicity has become a part of the case against it. In his State of the Union address, President Bush offered at least four justifications, none of them overlapping: the cruelty of Saddam against his own people; his flouting of treaties and United Nations Security Council resolutions; the military threat that he poses to his neighbors; and his ties to terrorists in general and to Al Qaeda in particular. In addition, Bush hinted at the possibility that Saddam might attack the United States or enable someone else to do so. There are so many reasons for going to war floating around—at least some of which, taken alone, either are nothing new or do not seem to point to Iraq specifically as the obvious place to wage it—that those inclined to suspect the motives of the Administration have plenty of material with which to argue that it is being disingenuous. So, along with all the stated reasons, there is a brisk secondary traffic in "real" reasons, which are similarly numerous and do not overlap: the country is going to war because of a desire to control Iraqi oil, or to help Israel, or to avenge Saddam's 1993 assassination attempt on President George H. W. Bush.

Yet another argument for war, which has emerged during the last few months, is that removing Saddam could help bring about a wholesale change for the better in the political, cultural, and economic climate of the Arab Middle East. To give one of many possible examples, Fouad Ajami, an expert on the Arab world who is highly respected inside the Bush Administration, proposes in the current issue of Foreign Affairs that the United States might lead "a reformist project that seeks to modernize and transform the Arab landscape. Iraq would be the starting point, and beyond Iraq lies an Arab political and economic tradition and a culture whose agonies have been on cruel display." The Administration's main public proponent of this view is Paul Wolfowitz, the Deputy Secretary of Defense, who often speaks about the possibility that war in Iraq could help bring democracy to the Arab Middle East. President Bush appeared to be making the same point in the State of the Union address when he remarked that "all people have a right to choose their own government, and determine their own destiny—and the United States supports their aspirations to live in freedom."

Even those suffering from justification fatigue ought to pay special attention to this one, because it goes beyond the category of reasons offered in support of a course of action that has already been decided upon and set in motion. Unlike the other justifications, it is both a reason for war and a plan for the future. It also cries out for elaboration. Democracy is a wonderful idea, but none of the countries in the Middle East, except Israel and Turkey, resemble anything that would look like a democracy to Americans. Some Middle Eastern countries are now and have always been ruled by monarchs. Some are under the control of an ethnic or religious group that represents a minority of the population. Saudi Arabia and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan are the world's only major nations named after a single family, and in Saudi Arabia the royal family functions as, in effect, the country's owner. Most Middle Eastern countries don't even make the pretense of having freely elected parliaments; in Iran, for example, candidates have to be approved by the mad mullahs. And the very problem that democracy in the Middle East is meant to solve—rising Islamic radicalism, encouraged or tolerated by governments that see it as a way to propitiate their increasingly poorer and younger populations—makes the prospect of elections dangerous, because anti-American Islamists might win.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Mubarack isn't there anymore due to a Iraq invasion inspired Arab Spring.
Blatant falsehood. The Egyptian revolution was inspired by the Tunisian revolution, which was started by youth educated in Europe. Not to mention that the Egyptians had been battling the Mubarak regime for decades, which the US paid the Egyptian military to kill,detain, and torture Egyptians. Prior to Obama coming out in support for the revolution everything the US did in Egypt had been to prevent a revolution from happening. These are all facts.

If you're so desperate to claim credit for America to try and patch up its destroyed reputation, I'd focus on silicon valley. Twitter and Facebook did far more for the Egyptian revultion than the failures and war criminals of the US military.
Intellectual virginity is not a virtue.

It was still a called shot.
Repeating blatant falsehoods and self-aggrandizing lieis not a virture. You ignore all of the facts I've just provided in favor of linking to an opinion piece. The causes of the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions are not related to the US failure in Iraq. A coincidence is not proof of causality.
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Doc
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Mubarack isn't there anymore due to a Iraq invasion inspired Arab Spring.
Blatant falsehood. The Egyptian revolution was inspired by the Tunisian revolution, which was started by youth educated in Europe. Not to mention that the Egyptians had been battling the Mubarak regime for decades, which the US paid the Egyptian military to kill,detain, and torture Egyptians. Prior to Obama coming out in support for the revolution everything the US did in Egypt had been to prevent a revolution from happening. These are all facts.

If you're so desperate to claim credit for America to try and patch up its destroyed reputation, I'd focus on silicon valley. Twitter and Facebook did far more for the Egyptian revultion than the failures and war criminals of the US military.
Intellectual virginity is not a virtue.

It was still a called shot.
Repeating blatant falsehoods and self-aggrandizing lieis not a virture. You ignore all of the facts I've just provided in favor of linking to an opinion piece. The causes of the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions are not related to the US failure in Iraq. A coincidence is not proof of causality.
I am repeating goals that were stated prior to the invasion of Iraq that have come to be. You are repeating opinions.

As to sectarian violence in Iraq try putting the blame where it belongs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab_al-Zarqawi
Attacks inside Iraq

The Weekly Standard reports that, before the invasion of Iraq, Zarqawi ran a "terrorist haven" in Kurdish northern Iraq.[33] According to a March 2003 British intelligence report, Zarqawi had set up "sleeper cells" in Baghdad before the Iraq war. The report stated "Reporting since (February) suggests that senior al Qaeda associate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has established sleeper cells in Baghdad, to be activated during a U.S. occupation of the city...These cells apparently intend to attack U.S. targets using car bombs and other weapons. (It is also possible that they have received [chemical and biological] materials from terrorists in the [Kurdish Autonomous Zone]),...al Qaeda-associated terrorists continued to arrive in Baghdad in early March."[34]
American hostage Nick Berg seated, with five men standing over him. The man directly behind him, alleged to be Zarqawi, is the one who beheaded Berg.

In May 2004, a video appeared on an alleged al-Qaeda website showing a group of five men, their faces covered with keffiyeh or balaclavas, beheading American civilian Nicholas Berg, who had been abducted and taken hostage in Iraq weeks earlier. The CIA claimed that the speaker on the tape wielding the knife that killed Berg was al-Zarqawi. The video opens with the title "Abu Musa'b al-Zarqawi slaughters an American." The speaker states that the murder was in retaliation for US abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison (see Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal).[35] Following the death of al-Zarqawi, CNN spoke with Nicholas's father and long-time anti-war activist Michael Berg, who stated that al-Zarqawi's killing would lead to further vengeance and was not a cause for rejoicing.[36]
American hostage Eugene Armstrong, with five men standing behind him. The man in the center, said to be Zarqawi, is the one who beheaded him.

Zarqawi is also believed to have personally beheaded another American civilian, Owen Eugene Armstrong, in September 2004. After Zarqawi died, Cindy Armstrong, wife of a cousin of Eugene, would just state that "an evil man is dead".[37]

United States officials implicated Zarqawi in over 700 killings in Iraq during the invasion, mostly from bombings.[38] Since March 2004, that number rose to the thousands.[39] According to the United States State Department, Zarqawi was responsible for the Canal Hotel bombing of the United Nations Headquarters in Iraq on August 19, 2003. This attack killed twenty-two people, including the United Nations secretary general's special Iraqi envoy Sergio Vieira de Mello.[40] Zarqawi's biggest alleged atrocities in Iraq included the attacks on the Shia shrines in Karbala and Baghdad in March 2004, which killed over 180 people, and the car bomb attacks in Najaf and Karbala in December 2004, which claimed over 60 lives.[41] Zarqawi is believed by the former Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq to have written an intercepted letter to the al-Qaeda leadership in February 2004 on the progress of the "Iraqi jihad." However, al-Qaeda denied they had written the letter.[42] The U.S. military believes Zarqawi organized the February 2006 attack on the Al Askari Mosque in Samarra, in an attempt to trigger sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shi'ites in Iraq.[43]

In a January 2005 internet recording, Zarqawi condemned democracy as "the big American lie" and said participants in Iraq's January 30 election were enemies of Islam. Zarqawi stated "We have declared a bitter war against democracy and all those who seek to enact it...Democracy is also based on the right to choose your religion [and that is] against the rule of Allah."[44].
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Mubarack isn't there anymore due to a Iraq invasion inspired Arab Spring.
Blatant falsehood. The Egyptian revolution was inspired by the Tunisian revolution, which was started by youth educated in Europe. Not to mention that the Egyptians had been battling the Mubarak regime for decades, which the US paid the Egyptian military to kill,detain, and torture Egyptians. Prior to Obama coming out in support for the revolution everything the US did in Egypt had been to prevent a revolution from happening. These are all facts.

If you're so desperate to claim credit for America to try and patch up its destroyed reputation, I'd focus on silicon valley. Twitter and Facebook did far more for the Egyptian revultion than the failures and war criminals of the US military.
Intellectual virginity is not a virtue.

It was still a called shot.
Repeating blatant falsehoods and self-aggrandizing lieis not a virture. You ignore all of the facts I've just provided in favor of linking to an opinion piece. The causes of the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions are not related to the US failure in Iraq. A coincidence is not proof of causality.
I am repeating goals that were stated prior to the invasion of Iraq that have come to be.
No, you are repeating the pathetic fiction that unconnected events are actually causal. This feeble excuse was floated by Bush II apologists, and latched on to by the most desperate hacks. Nobody seriously believes this garbage, even most of the people propagating it. It's for rubes.
You are repeating opinions.
I accurately recounted the origins and motivation of the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt. You ignored that and repeated partisan lies that have no relationship to reality.


As to sectarian violence in Iraq try putting the blame where it belongs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab_al-Zarqawi
"Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here." Remember that particular line of damage control that the Bush II admin invented after their WMD lies were exposed?
Zarqawi was part of the Bush II plan, version 2.0.

The Weekly Standard reports
:lol: Why don't you just link to graffiti in a bathroom stall?
The Weekly Standard is an American neoconservative[2][3][4][5] opinion magazine[6] published 48 times per year. Its founding publisher, News Corporation, debuted the title September 18, 1995. Currently edited by founder William Kristol and Fred Barnes, the Standard has been described as a "redoubt of neoconservatism" and as "the neo-con bible".[7][8] Since it was founded in 1995, the Weekly Standard has never been profitable, and has remained in business through subsidies from wealthy conservative benefactors such as former owner Rupert Murdoch.[9] Many of the magazine's articles are written by members of conservative think tanks located in Washington, D.C.: the American Enterprise Institute, the Ethics and Public Policy Center, the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, and the Hudson Institute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weekly_Standard

If right-wing propaganda mills are where you get your information then no wonder your views on Iraq consist of nothing but discredited garbage from 2006.
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Doc
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Mubarack isn't there anymore due to a Iraq invasion inspired Arab Spring.
Blatant falsehood. The Egyptian revolution was inspired by the Tunisian revolution, which was started by youth educated in Europe. Not to mention that the Egyptians had been battling the Mubarak regime for decades, which the US paid the Egyptian military to kill,detain, and torture Egyptians. Prior to Obama coming out in support for the revolution everything the US did in Egypt had been to prevent a revolution from happening. These are all facts.

If you're so desperate to claim credit for America to try and patch up its destroyed reputation, I'd focus on silicon valley. Twitter and Facebook did far more for the Egyptian revultion than the failures and war criminals of the US military.
Intellectual virginity is not a virtue.

It was still a called shot.
Repeating blatant falsehoods and self-aggrandizing lieis not a virture. You ignore all of the facts I've just provided in favor of linking to an opinion piece. The causes of the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions are not related to the US failure in Iraq. A coincidence is not proof of causality.
Your consistently crying falsehood is proof of what exactly?
I am repeating goals that were stated prior to the invasion of Iraq that have come to be.
No, you are repeating the pathetic fiction that unconnected events are actually causal. This feeble excuse was floated by Bush II apologists, and latched on to by the most desperate hacks. Nobody seriously believes this garbage, even most of the people propagating it. It's for rubes.
:lol: That is exactly what you are doing !!!
You are repeating opinions.
I accurately recounted the origins and motivation of the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt. You ignored that and repeated partisan lies that have no relationship to reality.
After the fact of what was claimed to a goal of invading Iraq BEFORE Iraq was invaded. ;)


As to sectarian violence in Iraq try putting the blame where it belongs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab_al-Zarqawi
"Fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here." Remember that particular line of damage control that the Bush II admin invented after their WMD lies were exposed?
Zarqawi was part of the Bush II plan, version 2.0.
There you go diverting again. BTW Zarqawi was famous as a terrorist before the Gulf war. As the wiki article I posted said. You know the one you completely snipped out?


The Weekly Standard reports
:lol: Why don't you just link to graffiti in a bathroom stall?
The Weekly Standard is an American neoconservative[2][3][4][5] opinion magazine[6] published 48 times per year. Its founding publisher, News Corporation, debuted the title September 18, 1995. Currently edited by founder William Kristol and Fred Barnes, the Standard has been described as a "redoubt of neoconservatism" and as "the neo-con bible".[7][8] Since it was founded in 1995, the Weekly Standard has never been profitable, and has remained in business through subsidies from wealthy conservative benefactors such as former owner Rupert Murdoch.[9] Many of the magazine's articles are written by members of conservative think tanks located in Washington, D.C.: the American Enterprise Institute, the Ethics and Public Policy Center, the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, and the Hudson Institute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weekly_Standard

If right-wing propaganda mills are where you get your information then no wonder your views on Iraq consist of nothing but discredited garbage from 2006.
That is the way Ibrahim don't address the detailed content attack the messenger.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:That is the way Ibrahim don't address the detailed content attack the messenger.
Already trashed the content. The Tunisian uprising was orchestrated by European-educated Tunisian intellectuals after a Tunisian man immolated himself to protest the regime. The Egyptian uprising was inspired by the Tunisian uprising. At the time of the Egyptian uprising the US was still funding the Mubarak regime which routinely murdered and tortured people who opposed it. You want to falsely give the US credit for a revolution while the US was helping the regime torture dissidents. Its colossally stupid even before its dishonest. Its up there with "Jews did 9/11" conspiracy trash.


So with the theory soundly dispatched now I'm making fun of the right-wing propaganda mills that spread it in the first place. Unless you think News Corp publishes an unprofitable paper containing think-tank articles as some kind of benevolent public service...
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Doc
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:That is the way Ibrahim don't address the detailed content attack the messenger.
Already trashed the content. The Tunisian uprising was orchestrated by European-educated Tunisian intellectuals after a Tunisian man immolated himself to protest the regime. The Egyptian uprising was inspired by the Tunisian uprising. At the time of the Egyptian uprising the US was still funding the Mubarak regime which routinely murdered and tortured people who opposed it. You want to falsely give the US credit for a revolution while the US was helping the regime torture dissidents. Its colossally stupid even before its dishonest. Its up there with "Jews did 9/11" conspiracy trash.


So with the theory soundly dispatched now I'm making fun of the right-wing propaganda mills that spread it in the first place. Unless you think News Corp publishes an unprofitable paper containing think-tank articles as some kind of benevolent public service...
You have in no way addressed what I said or otherwise refuted it. You called it co-incidence that one of the STATED GOALS of the Bush Admin in Iraq was to bring democracy to the ME . Sorry that just does not cut it.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:You have in no way addressed what I said or otherwise refuted it. You called it co-incidence that one of the STATED GOALS of the Bush Admin in Iraq was to bring democracy to the ME . Sorry that just does not cut it.
Your second-hand NewsCorp propaganda is what doesn't cut it. It doesn't matter what the Bush II admin promised while it was lying about WMDs, the actual outcome in Iraq was failure, and the actual events in Tunisia and Egypt were entirely unrelated to Iraq. Those are simple facts.

The funny part is that you don't know anything about Tunisia or Egypt or the millions of people who live there, and you don't even care. All these lies are just to make red-state hicks feel better about voting for a human punchline and their brother-in-law getting his legs blown off for nothing.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Doc wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
OR as Walid Jumblatt said in 2005:
Walid Jumblatt... :lol: :lol:

Hey Doc. Israel tortures children as well. What are you going to do about it?

Mubarak did too. What did you do about about it?
Mubarack isn't there anymore due to a Iraq invasion inspired Arab Spring. So I guess we can check that one off our list. But in general we should do what is practical to do. I keep hearing about Israelis torturing children from you. But I don't see any evidence you have posted. I do remember two israeli soldiers breaking the arms of two boys for throwing stones at them. That is why the Israelis were so desperate to get Arafat to come to the west bank after the first intafada. It was the only way they could stop it. IF as yo uclaim the Israelis are torturing children all you have to do to end it is expose that to the light of day.
Actually, many in the Arab world argue that the overthrow of all these dicktators was delayed due to the "democracy" the US brought to Iraq. They took a look to what was once the strongest Arab country and said you know, this democracy thing is not what Hollywood has been selling us. Even then, the US stood by Mubafuck till the bitter end. SO good was he, that he is still in some prison instead of hanging from a lamp post. Saddam can't hold a candle to the scum Mubafuk was. If Saddam broke the legs of a little girl, Mubafuk's Egypt shoved broom sticks up their asses for 30 years.

And if you want evidence, don't look to me for it. Just look in the Israel thread for it. Plenty there. Still waiting on Monster to read the report.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=74&start=1125#p49184

http://www.unicef.org/media/media_68093.html

http://www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oPt_Ch ... h_2013.pdf

This report goes to show you how morally bankrupt this criminal orginization called the UN is. They called for improved conditions for children in Israeli jails. Wow! Tell us again about what you would do if you saw a child being tortured ?

http://archive.truthout.org/article/dah ... s-children
Dahr Jamail | Easily Dispensable: Iraq's Children
The US is no longer in Iraq. Saddam without US intervention would still be there. This guy complains of 107 children being held in prison. Then an unknown number But he does not really say what they are being held for. IE this guy talks but outside of a UN report that somehow was not made public he doesn't really give anything other than his opinion. Just opinion.
This guy has been to Iraq more times than all of the reporters in Fox news and the Weekly Standard. Stayed with them talked to them, saw the misery first hand. He is complaining about 107 children; you are complaining about one.
On May 12, 1996, Clinton's Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was asked by Lesley Stahl on "60 Minutes" about the effects of US sanctions against Iraq, "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"

In a response which has now become notorious, Albright replied, "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price - we think the price is worth it."
And it is well documented Saddam made a point of trying to claim as many children as he could died from the sanctions.(funny how you don't want to ever mention or acknowledge that) Which again just goes to show that he should have been removed in 1991.
Acknowledge what? That more than a million children died from starvation and dirty water? That under Saddam illeteracy was outlawed and everyone was forced to attend school to be able to read and right? Now with all of the orphaned children, guess what that rate is?

Why not removed before 1991 when he for sure had WMD's?


To all Americans who, despite voluminous evidence to the contrary, continue to believe that they are supporting a war for democracy in Iraq, I would like to say, the way Iraq is headed it will have little use for democracy and freedom. We must find ways to stop the immoral, soulless, repugnant occupation if we want the children of Iraq to see any future at all.
Again the US in no longer in Iraq. It is up to the people of Iraq from here on out. IF you think they are not up to the task of building a democracy then that is *your opinion* and we'll see.[/quote]

The people of Iraq have been destroyed by brutal sanctions, wars and sellout corrupt Iranian minions ruling the country. It is easy for you to blame the other.
Here is something to think about. I have found that those who support war the most have never experienced it first hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in ... _countries
A 2009 U.S. Army report indicates military veterans have double the suicide rate of non-veterans, and more active-duty soldiers are dying from suicide than in combat in the Iraq War (2003-2011) and War in Afghanistan (2001–present).[11] Colonel Carl Castro, director of military operational medical research for the Army noted "there needs to be a cultural shift in the military to get people to focus more on mental health and fitness."[12]
This is what happens when you experience war. Now imagine what it must be like for those on the receiving end. Saddam has been gone for 10 years now. Iraq will not be a democracy even in the next 10 and for sure it will be the Iraqis fault for not putting Humty Dumty back together again :roll:
Last edited by Hans Bulvai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Wake up motherfucker
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Doc wrote: http://www.warincontext.org/2003_02_01_ ... l#90309416
After Iraq
The plan to remake the Middle East
Nicholas Lemann, The New Yorker, February 10, 2003

..., Fouad Ajami, an expert on the Arab world who is highly respected inside the Bush Administration,...
For somebody who claims to support Arab's right to democracy, you really don't know anything about the people whose wellbeing you take to heart.

Ajami can't even step foot in any of the recently "liberated" countries without having shoes thrown at him. But maybe I need to get "real". What is a shoe thrown at someone in Arab culture. pffff.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by noddy »

it appears from my distant position that the only iraq community which would probably tend towards a magority of thinking the war was worth it is the kurdish one.
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Doc
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Doc wrote: http://www.warincontext.org/2003_02_01_ ... l#90309416
After Iraq
The plan to remake the Middle East
Nicholas Lemann, The New Yorker, February 10, 2003

..., Fouad Ajami, an expert on the Arab world who is highly respected inside the Bush Administration,...
For somebody who claims to support Arab's right to democracy, you really don't know anything about the people whose wellbeing you take to heart.
:roll: .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouad_Ajami
Ajami cautioned the United States about the likely negative consequences of the Iraq War. In a 2003 essay in Foreign Affairs, "Iraq and the Arabs' Future," Ajami wrote,

There should be no illusions about the sort of Arab landscape that America is destined to find if, or when, it embarks on a war against the Iraqi regime. There would be no "hearts and minds" to be won in the Arab world, no public diplomacy that would convince the overwhelming majority of Arabs that this war would be a just war. An American expedition in the wake of thwarted UN inspections would be seen by the vast majority of Arabs as an imperial reach into their world, a favor to Israel, or a way for the United States to secure control over Iraq's oil. No hearing would be given to the great foreign power.[14]

But he also goes on to say:

America ought to be able to live with this distrust and discount a good deal of this anti-Americanism as the "road rage" of a thwarted Arab world – the congenital condition of a culture yet to take full responsibility for its self-inflicted wounds. There is no need to pay excessive deference to the political pieties and givens of the region. Indeed, this is one of those settings where a reforming foreign power's simpler guidelines offer a better way than the region's age-old prohibitions and defects
.

Ajami can't even step foot in any of the recently "liberated" countries without having shoes thrown at him. But maybe I need to get "real". What is a shoe thrown at someone in Arab culture. pffff.
Childish.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Doc wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Doc wrote: http://www.warincontext.org/2003_02_01_ ... l#90309416
After Iraq
The plan to remake the Middle East
Nicholas Lemann, The New Yorker, February 10, 2003

..., Fouad Ajami, an expert on the Arab world who is highly respected inside the Bush Administration,...
For somebody who claims to support Arab's right to democracy, you really don't know anything about the people whose wellbeing you take to heart.
:roll: .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouad_Ajami
Ajami cautioned the United States about the likely negative consequences of the Iraq War. In a 2003 essay in Foreign Affairs, "Iraq and the Arabs' Future," Ajami wrote,

There should be no illusions about the sort of Arab landscape that America is destined to find if, or when, it embarks on a war against the Iraqi regime. There would be no "hearts and minds" to be won in the Arab world, no public diplomacy that would convince the overwhelming majority of Arabs that this war would be a just war. An American expedition in the wake of thwarted UN inspections would be seen by the vast majority of Arabs as an imperial reach into their world, a favor to Israel, or a way for the United States to secure control over Iraq's oil. No hearing would be given to the great foreign power.[14]

But he also goes on to say:

America ought to be able to live with this distrust and discount a good deal of this anti-Americanism as the "road rage" of a thwarted Arab world – the congenital condition of a culture yet to take full responsibility for its self-inflicted wounds. There is no need to pay excessive deference to the political pieties and givens of the region. Indeed, this is one of those settings where a reforming foreign power's simpler guidelines offer a better way than the region's age-old prohibitions and defects
.

That says nothing about Ajami's concern for Arabs. "They will hate you for it and it will be hell but go ahead anyway. It is in their best interest"

From your link,
Ajami retained a positive view of the war three years later. In a 2006 book on the invasion and its aftermath, he described it as a noble effort, and argued that despite many unhappy consequences, it was too soon to write it off as a failure
Here we are are 7 years later. Is it still too soon?

Ajami can't even step foot in any of the recently "liberated" countries without having shoes thrown at him. But maybe I need to get "real". What is a shoe thrown at someone in Arab culture. pffff.
Childish.
Of course.
Last edited by Hans Bulvai on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

noddy wrote:it appears from my distant position that the only iraq community which would probably tend towards a magority of thinking the war was worth it is the kurdish one.
Correct.
And the only community this week who declared anniversary day a public holiday.

Not in Baghdad though. There were posters of the falling statue but not the tank that pulled it down.
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Doc wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Doc wrote: http://www.warincontext.org/2003_02_01_ ... l#90309416
After Iraq
The plan to remake the Middle East
Nicholas Lemann, The New Yorker, February 10, 2003

..., Fouad Ajami, an expert on the Arab world who is highly respected inside the Bush Administration,...
For somebody who claims to support Arab's right to democracy, you really don't know anything about the people whose wellbeing you take to heart.
:roll: .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fouad_Ajami
Ajami cautioned the United States about the likely negative consequences of the Iraq War. In a 2003 essay in Foreign Affairs, "Iraq and the Arabs' Future," Ajami wrote,

There should be no illusions about the sort of Arab landscape that America is destined to find if, or when, it embarks on a war against the Iraqi regime. There would be no "hearts and minds" to be won in the Arab world, no public diplomacy that would convince the overwhelming majority of Arabs that this war would be a just war. An American expedition in the wake of thwarted UN inspections would be seen by the vast majority of Arabs as an imperial reach into their world, a favor to Israel, or a way for the United States to secure control over Iraq's oil. No hearing would be given to the great foreign power.[14]

But he also goes on to say:

America ought to be able to live with this distrust and discount a good deal of this anti-Americanism as the "road rage" of a thwarted Arab world – the congenital condition of a culture yet to take full responsibility for its self-inflicted wounds. There is no need to pay excessive deference to the political pieties and givens of the region. Indeed, this is one of those settings where a reforming foreign power's simpler guidelines offer a better way than the region's age-old prohibitions and defects
.

That says nothing about Ajami's concern for Arabs. "They will hate you for it and it will be hell but go ahead anyway. It is in their best interest"

From your link,
Ajami retained a positive view of the war three years later. In a 2006 book on the invasion and its aftermath, he described it as a noble effort, and argued that despite many unhappy consequences, it was too soon to write it off as a failure
Here we are are 7 years later. Is it still too soon?
No not at all. The Arab spring looks like it will stick around for a while. Iraqis have a say in how they are governed. So do Tunisians , Egyptians, Libyans, to some degree in Yemen, and other works in progress. But it started with Iraq. Get over it.
Ajami can't even step foot in any of the recently "liberated" countries without having shoes thrown at him. But maybe I need to get "real". What is a shoe thrown at someone in Arab culture. pffff.
Childish.
Of course.
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Some Uz & Euroz Responsible for Arab Fimbulwinter:Banksters.

Post by monster_gardener »

monster_gardener wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:That is the way Ibrahim don't address the detailed content attack the messenger.
Already trashed the content. The Tunisian uprising was orchestrated by European-educated Tunisian intellectuals after a Tunisian man immolated himself to protest the regime. The Egyptian uprising was inspired by the Tunisian uprising. At the time of the Egyptian uprising the US was still funding the Mubarak regime which routinely murdered and tortured people who opposed it. You want to falsely give the US credit for a revolution while the US was helping the regime torture dissidents. Its colossally stupid even before its dishonest. Its up there with "Jews did 9/11" conspiracy trash.


So with the theory soundly dispatched now I'm making fun of the right-wing propaganda mills that spread it in the first place. Unless you think News Corp publishes an unprofitable paper containing think-tank articles as some kind of benevolent public service...
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
Its colossally stupid even before its dishonest. Its up there with "Jews did 9/11" conspiracy trash.
Thank you even more for this somewhat unusual honest statement though IIRC you also got the Falklands right recently too....... :)

Keep up the good work. :)

That said, FWIW, I have read that Some of Uz & the Euroz ;) may be responsible for the Arab Fimbulwinter ;) :twisted: oops I mean Arab Spring:

That is the Bankster Killer FIRE Klownz from Financial Space...

That the FIRE Banksters were messing with Food Futures after a drought in Uz and this pushed the price of food up enough that the Kings in the Land like ASSad the Ass ;) , MUbarak the Cow ;) and GadDaffi the Duck ;) could no longer keep their people fed at a low enough cost to keep them more or less content.

ASSad the Ass is the last hanging on...... Bahram Gore... ;) :twisted: oops I mean Bahram Gur........

Soon every Man, Woman, Boy, Girl and Alawite, Alevi, Christian, Druze, Kurd, Magian, Secular, Shia and Sunni in Syria will be able to do what is right in his or her own eyes be it evil or good in their own peculiar ways....

If they are willing to do terrible things and have terrible things done to them.......

And survive long enough to do them.....

So if what I have read is true, while some parts of America may have some responsibility for Arab Fimbulwinter Springing ;) forth, it's not something I want to brag about too much........

I and my sources could be wrong, or just one factor among many in this latest mess in the Middle East........

Which may have begun as a drought in the Middle West........
In Norse mythology, Fimbulvetr (or fimbulvinter), commonly rendered in English as Fimbulwinter, is the immediate prelude to the events of Ragnarök.


Fimbulvetr is the harsh winter that precedes the end of the world and puts an end to all life on Earth. Fimbulwinter is three successive winters where snow comes in from all directions, without any intervening summer. During this time, there will be innumerable wars and ties of blood will no longer be respected: the next-of-kin will lie together and brothers will kill brothers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimbulwinter
Last edited by monster_gardener on Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Doc wrote:[
No not at all. The Arab spring looks like it will stick around for a while. Iraqis have a say in how they are governed. So do Tunisians , Egyptians, Libyans, to some degree in Yemen, and other works in progress. But it started with Iraq. Get over it.
Dillusional and unimpressive. What whatever you have to convince yourself
So does Israel torture children?

Here is something else for you to dismiss.

http://english.dohainstitute.org/conten ... dd2150ee13
Dr. Azmi Bishara, General Director of the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies, gave the opening remarks at the Center's conference commemorating the first ten years since the invasion of Iraq (April 10 and 11, 2013). Bishara began by describing the Anglo-American invasion as a "pivotal incident which changed the course of history" in the region. According to Bishara, the invasion and occupation of Iraq left an indelible mark on the Arabs' understanding of global politics. He further stressed that the invasion did more than any other event to push back the advancement of democracy in the Arab Levant, by creating hysterical fear of change amongst the population.
The English translation of Dr. Bishara's speech follows below:

....


As for the Arab scholars gathered here, we have a right to put forward two questions with some urgency. Firstly, would any of us have been concerned about the lies peddled had the Iraqi people not resisted? If the plans which policy-makers had put in place and deluded themselves into believing succeeded? A second point is to define which act was more truly a crime. Was misleading public opinion in Europe and the US the real crime? Or was it, rather, the destruction of a country and interference in its social and national fabric? The imposition of a regime which entrenched that destruction? A constitution which puts that destruction into a legal framework, thereby making the retrieval of national bonds more difficult?
...

The Neoconservatives had trumpeted the notion of "exporting democracy", but in fact the invasion of Iraq was the single biggest setback to the progress of democracy in the Arab Levant. The invasion created a fear of change and the sectarian strife which such change might bring. It gave rise to a revulsion of the elites who had allied with the occupiers. The intensity of feeling is such that wide sections of the public within the Arab Levant fear change and avoid it.

...



A third point is that corruption is not the exclusive and necessary preserve of tyranny. Indeed, corruption may indeed fester amongst the opponents of tyranny, should these latter not accept democracy and the rule, and should their political ethics be dominated by foreign concerns. A fourth point is that the methodical attack on the Arab identity of the peoples of the Arab Levant are an affront on the social cohesion of our societies. While the populations of the Arab Levant are pluralist in terms of their sectarian and ethnic composition, they all interact within the frame set by the Arabic language, and Arab culture.

...

I can only describe this as an attempt to turn back the clock of history. I have no doubt that something similar is being done to Syria, and that the situation needs to be rectified before the contagion takes over not only Syria, but spreads to the rest of the Arab Levant.

...

To combat the consequences of the US invasion of Iraq is to acknowledge the existence of our shared citizenship on which national loyalty, and a rejection of sectarian loyalty to foreign powers, is based. It also means the acknowledgment of the majority's Arab identity which binds the entire country to the surrounding environment. It also means a refusal of the sectarian system and a simultaneous acceptance of the religious and confessional pluralism in Arab societies.
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Doc wrote:[
No not at all. The Arab spring looks like it will stick around for a while. Iraqis have a say in how they are governed. So do Tunisians , Egyptians, Libyans, to some degree in Yemen, and other works in progress. But it started with Iraq. Get over it.
Dillusional and unimpressive. What whatever you have to convince yourself
So does Israel torture children?

Here is something else for you to dismiss.
Indeed. :lol:

http://english.dohainstitute.org/conten ... dd2150ee13
Dr. Azmi Bishara, General Director of the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies, gave the opening remarks at the Center's conference commemorating the first ten years since the invasion of Iraq (April 10 and 11, 2013). Bishara began by describing the Anglo-American invasion as a "pivotal incident which changed the course of history" in the region. According to Bishara, the invasion and occupation of Iraq left an indelible mark on the Arabs' understanding of global politics. He further stressed that the invasion did more than any other event to push back the advancement of democracy in the Arab Levant, by creating hysterical fear of change amongst the population.
SO afraid of change they decided to overthrow their governments !!! :lol:

Snipped emotional hyperbole.
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Iraq election largely peaceful

Post by Doc »

http://triblive.com/usworld/world/38809 ... z2R7YL30C2
Iraq election largely peaceful

By The Associated Press

Published: Saturday, April 20, 2013, 9:51 p.m.
Updated 15 hours ago

BAGHDAD — Iraq carried out its first election since the U.S. military withdrawal without major bloodshed on Saturday in a major test for Iraqi security forces as they face a reviving al-Qaida insurgency. But delayed elections in two provinces wracked by anti-government protests and complaints about missing names on voter rolls overshadowed the voting.

The results will be a key measure of support for the country's vying political coalitions and could boost the victors' chances heading into next year's parliamentary elections. Thousands of candidates from 50 electoral blocs were vying for 378 seats on provincial councils, which hold sway over public works projects and other decisions at the local level.

Officials increased security to thwart insurgent attempts to disrupt the vote. Nearly all cars were ordered off the roads in major cities, leaving streets eerily empty and giving children a chance to play soccer in the middle of highways.

Scattered violence — mainly mortar shells and small bombs — struck near polling places. But they resulted in no fatalities — a departure from a wave of bloodshed earlier in the week. Six people were reported wounded Saturday.

As in past elections, voters dipped their fingers in purple ink after casting their ballots to prevent repeat voting.

Among them was Oday Mohammed, a businessman who brought his mother, wife and children along to vote for a candidate from Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's State of Law bloc. He said he believes both candidates and voters are growing more experienced with the democratic process since the 2003 ouster of dictator Saddam Hussein.

“Not all politicians are corrupt. There are some good people,” he said at a polling center in the mainly Shiite district of Kazimiyah.

The voting occurs at a time of rising tensions between Iraq's Sunni Arab minority and the Shiite majority that has dominated politics since the U.S.-led invasion a decade ago.

Read more: http://triblive.com/usworld/world/38809 ... z2R7Z8V5uB
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

I wish it were that uneventful, but there was substantial violence leading up to the election.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/15/world/meast/iraq-violence
Deadly wave of bombings across Iraq ahead of elections
Baghdad (CNN) -- A series of bomb blasts across Iraq on Monday killed at least 42 people and wounded more than 257 others, police said.

The attacks took place in at least six provinces: Baghdad, Anbar, Babel, Kirkuk, Salaheddin Diyala, and Nasriya, police officials across the country told CNN.

Two of the bombs exploded at a checkpoint near Baghdad's international airport.

Most of the attacks in Baghdad targeted Shiite areas, police told CNN. Al Qaeda in Iraq, made up of Sunni extremists, has claimed responsibility for many attacks in recent months.

Attacks elsewhere hit security checkpoints, Shiite areas and political offices.

With provincial elections scheduled to take place in five days, ongoing attacks have politicians worried that violence could skew the outcome, if Iraqis who fear attacks on polling centers stay at home.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terroris ... bing-today
Pre-election violence rocks Baghdad, capped with cafe bombing today

Today's bomb attack in Baghdad is only the latest in a series of attacks ahead of tomorrow's provincial elections, which are considered an important test of Iraq's post-war stability.
A bomb attack in Baghdad has left dozens dead and scores injured just days before provincial elections are slated to take place. The elections are an important test of Iraq’s political stability more than a year after US troops departed.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/ ... 7320130415
Bombs kill more than 30 across Iraq before local poll
(Reuters) - Car bombs and blasts in cities across Iraq, including two explosions at a checkpoint outside Baghdad's international airport, killed at least 33 people on Monday days before provincial elections.

No one claimed responsibility for the attacks in Baghdad, Kirkuk, Tuz Khurmato and other towns to the north to south, but al Qaeda's local wing is waging a campaign against Shi'ites and the government to stoke sectarian confrontation.

Iraqis will vote on Saturday for members of provincial councils in a ballot that is seen as a test of political stability since the last U.S. troops withdrew in December 2011.
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Doc »

The election itself was pretty peaceful.
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Azrael »

Preliminary results of Iraq provincial elections

>> According to the preliminary results of the elections, the State of Law coalition, which is led by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and which includes various parties that won in nine Shiite cities in southern Iraq, as well as in Baghdad, while the Mutahidoun bloc, led by parliament Speaker Osama al-Nujaifi, won in the two Sunni cities of Diyala and Salahuddin. These cities were allowed to vote after the ballot was postponed in Nineveh and Mosul, in addition to Kirkuk.
The figures of the results show that the coalition of the young cleric Ammar al-Hakim has scored a big win in six Shiite cities, knowing that he achieved low rates in the 2009 elections. These numbers also show that cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's bloc remained at the same level and that the coalition of the secular politician Iyad Allawi and that of the Sunni politician who split from the Iraqiya List, Saleh al-Mutlaq, witnessed a decline. <<
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Azrael »

Provincial Elections update

>> Preliminary results — leaked two days after the polls closed on Saturday [April 20] — show the country's religious minorities will get 6 out of 378 seats in the 12 provinces. The various dispersed Iraqi lists will get nearly 70 seats, while the Sadrist movement will win close to 50 seats. The State of Law coalition will receive 115 seats, whereas 80 seats will go to the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq (ISCI).

These elections, in which 6,400,777 people participated in 12 provinces, resulted in a new rise of secular and liberal forces — particularly the political alliance led by the Iraqi Communist Party, which won a number of seats in each of the provinces — although they do not constitute a major force in the local councils. Yet, the decreased number of seats for Islamists, and rise of new civil forces could probably reflect a relative shift in the public’s mood. <<
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Re: The Iraq Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

These useless elections will do nothing to change facts on the ground.

http://dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-Eas ... z2RXW30ksQ
Iraq PM warns of sectarian war as 179 killed April 25, 2013 11:10 PM (Last updated: April 25, 2013 11:17 PM) By W.G. Dunlop

Baghdad April 25, 2013. REUTERS/Wissm al-Okili


BAGHDAD: Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki warned on Thursday of a return to "sectarian civil war" as 179 people were killed over three days and gunmen were given 48 hours to vacate a town they seized.

Maliki called for people "to take the initiative, and not be silent about those who want to take the country back to sectarian civil war," in remarks broadcast on state television.

The violence erupted on Tuesday when security forces moved in against anti-government protesters near the Sunni Muslim town of Hawijah in northern Iraq, sparking clashes that left 53 people dead
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