Iraq

[Doc]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... q/1992777/

Born in war and poverty, youth don't abandon Iraq
1:57p.m. EDT March 16, 2013
iraq next generation

(Photo: Hadi Mizban, AP)
Story Highlights

60 percent of Iraq's population is under 25
Survey: 80 percent of young Iraqis don't want to move
Unemployment among 25-30-year olds: 54 percent

BAGHDAD (AP) — The 21-year-old college student in Baghdad lost her father during the Iraq War to gunmen from a rival Muslim sect. Now she dreams of an Iraq where all people can "enjoy stable life and security."

The young bus driver from a former al-Qaeda stronghold had to drop out of school to help support his family. He struggles to make ends meet but longs to resume his education.

The teenager from the northern Kurdish region works in his father's barber shop when he's not in class. He looks forward to making a lot of money in Iraq — but only if the government can capitalize on its oil trade and foreign investments.

As part of Iraq's growing youth population — which accounts for about 60 percent of the nation's people — all three say they are impatient at best about where their country is headed. The U.S.-led invasion of March 20, 2003, promised better lives for Iraqis after three decades of war, dictatorship and sanctions. Ten years later, the county is mired in widespread instability and political corruption.

Nevertheless, interviews and discussions across the country with more than a dozen Iraqi teenagers and young adults reveal a resiliency and refusal to abandon hope. Deadly violence is common, jobs are scarce and education is a luxury, but they say they are unwilling to give up on Iraq. Moreover, a government survey shows that 80 percent of young Iraqis don't want to move to another country.

"I want my country to be better, and I want my people to enjoy stable life and security, and for Iraq to be like a Western country," said Shahad Abdul-Amir Abbas, whose father was killed in 2005 in the widespread sectarian fighting that brought Iraq to the brink of civil war.

Abbas, a Shiite who attends college in Baghdad, wants to find a good-paying job and to marry, but thinks "my personal ambitions will not come true unless my country gets rid of all the security, political and economic problems."

An estimated 18 million people of Iraq's population of 30 million are younger than 25, according to data provided by the CIA and the United Nations. By comparison, Americans of that same age group make up about one-third of the U.S. population. Contraceptives are limited in Iraq, and an estimated 20 percent of girls ages 15 to 19 are married, according to the U.N.

The fate of Iraq's youth is a top concern for the U.N. envoy in Baghdad, especially as there are few — if any — obvious successors to the nation's aging political leaders. As the upcoming generation looks to the future, the decisions they make today — pursuing education, finding jobs, whether or whom to marry, and even to stay or leave the country — will help determine whether and how quickly Iraq is able to achieve peace and prosperity.

A 2009 study by the Iraqi Ministry of Youth and Sport reveals a decidedly traditional worldview among the nation's young people. The survey of 6,492 households across Iraq, focusing in large part on 15,087 people ages 10 to 30, concluded that 60 percent of the country's youth are generally optimistic about the future, especially teenage girls. The study was the first of its kind in Iraq, according to the U.N.

However, the study also found that nearly 40 percent refuse to talk to people deemed different than them. Slightly more than half — 52 percent — do not have friends from different religions or sects. And more than 90 percent believe women must have the approval of their husbands or families before they are allowed to work outside the home.

The survey has not been updated since 2009. It is currently being used to develop a national youth strategy, Iraqi government officials said.

U.N. envoy Martin Kobler said teenage and young Iraqi adults generally remain isolated from other religious sects. But a group of several dozen Iraqi youths he recently took on a series of field trips to different mosques and shrines indicated a curiosity and willingness to learn.

"They asked all kinds of questions — they just do not know about the other denominations," Kobler said in an interview Thursday. "And on one occasion, they interrupted the sheik, saying they don't want to hear about sectarian attitudes. They said, 'We want to hear about jobs, and about our future in Iraq — not sectarianism.'"

"The young people who have tolerance today will be adults with tolerance tomorrow," Kobler said. "But young people with limited views and sectarianism today will have those views tomorrow. It's very important that this country stays together. Everything that works to separate the country along sectarian lines is not conducive to an atmosphere where everybody is an Iraqi."

Abdul-Wadoud Fawzi, a 25-year-old Sunni, struggles to be optimistic. He is a native of Fallujah, the former al-Qaeda stronghold in Iraq's west that has been a recent hotspot of anti-government protests. Each weekday morning, Fawzi drives a minibus of students to Anbar University in the city of Ramadi, about 45 minutes away. He had to drop out of school to help support his family, earning $300 a month as a driver.

"Studying might provide me with a better life and future," he said. "My hopes are similar to the hopes of all Iraqis — to live a peaceful and dignified life away from violence and war miseries. The country is getting worse, as long as justice is absent in Iraq, and it will not get better until we get rid of the unjust government."

The ministry study says nearly all youth — 92 percent — receive some formal schooling but that there's a high drop-out rate. In 2009, the study estimated that fewer than half of Iraqis between the ages of 15 and 24 were still in school, with more males than females enrolled.

Government officials have tried to help young people mostly by creating sports clubs, offering computer training and opening fine arts centers. The Youth and Sport ministry has an annual $840 million budget but no authority to create jobs.

Unemployment remains high among young Iraqis. Only 46 percent of people aged 25 to 30 had jobs in 2009, the government study showed. That's compared to 81 percent of working Americans of the same age last year, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Some of the best jobs in Iraq are with the government, where a midlevel worker makes about $600 a month. Those jobs aren't easy to get.

In the southern port city of Basra, Akram Hashim, 25, is earning pocket change at a photography store even though he's been trained in computer science. He says he does not have the political connections necessary to be given public work.

"A stable government job to help my family is what is needed," said Hashim, a Shiite who lives with his wife and daughter in his parents' home with six other relatives. "It is very hard to get a good job."

How does he see his country's future? "It could get worse," he said gloomily.

Basra is surrounded by some of the world's most lucrative oil fields, which are being mined for foreign investors. Yet Hashim's desire for a government job reflects a deep-seated reluctance among many Iraqis to wean themselves off reliable employment. Kobler said that is rooted in part by security fears: If the violence continues, fewer foreign investors will come to Iraq, and jobs could dry up.

A notable exception is in the self-rule Kurdish region in Iraq's north. The region is generally more stable and financially well-off than the rest of Iraq, largely because it was not under Saddam Hussein's control in 2003 and was spared the violence, military and political chaos in the years after the U.S.-led occupation.

Alan Fatih Kareem, 18, a Kurdish high school student who works in his father's barber shop in the regional capital of Irbil, says new foreign investment and influences have given him a taste of the West and, generally, should bode well for Iraq's future.

"Iraq and Kurdistan are making remarkable progress in terms of development, construction and mixing with foreigners," Kareem said. "I'm looking forward. I don't know what will happen in the future, but I'm sure Iraq will change for the better."

The youth study shows that more than half of young adults own cell phones, which were nonexistent in Iraq 10 years ago. It also found that more than four out of five young Iraqis have no desire to leave their homeland, despite its many problems.

But Iraq's leaders cannot afford to let security threats and bleak economic opportunities go unchecked, Kobler said. "My impression is (Iraqi youth) want to stay," he said. "But if framework conditions are as they are, then they will want to leave."

In the holy Shiite city of Najaf, Intithar Hussein has put faith in her up-and-coming generation. She is a satellite television reporter in a country where, according to the study, only a 52 percent majority of young men believe women should work. She does not care.

"The important thing is to have the smile of victory on your face when you achieve what you work hard to do," said Hussein, 22. "The size of corruption and destruction is big, but the well-doing hands of Iraqis who are working to draw a shining future are many."

[Ibrahim]

The idea that non-Western countries are prone to suddenly break apart under stress, and that people "with a tribal mentality" have no sense of national identity has always been baseless, and a good method for identifying a fake "expert." Iraqis identify as Iraqis as well as other things, like people anywhere. Anecdotally speaking, I've found Iraqi expats to be even more patriotic/nationalist than other people from the region.

So its a positive article, but what you can expect in most of the countries in the region afflicted by strife.

[Doc]

The idea that non-Western countries are prone to suddenly break apart under stress, and that people "with a tribal mentality" have no sense of national identity has always been baseless, and a good method for identifying a fake "expert." Iraqis identify as Iraqis as well as other things, like people anywhere. Anecdotally speaking, I've found Iraqi expats to be even more patriotic/nationalist than other people from the region.

So its a positive article, but what you can expect in most of the countries in the region afflicted by strife.

Hopefully you agree that it is a good thing.

[Hans Bulvai]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... q/1992777/

Born in war and poverty, youth don't abandon Iraq
1:57p.m. EDT March 16, 2013
iraq next generation

(Photo: Hadi Mizban, AP)
Story Highlights

60 percent of Iraq's population is under 25
Survey: 80 percent of young Iraqis don't want to move
Unemployment among 25-30-year olds: 54 percent

BAGHDAD (AP) — The 21-year-old college student in Baghdad lost her father during the Iraq War to gunmen from a rival Muslim sect. Now she dreams of an Iraq where all people can "enjoy stable life and security."

The young bus driver from a former al-Qaeda stronghold had to drop out of school to help support his family. He struggles to make ends meet but longs to resume his education.

The teenager from the northern Kurdish region works in his father's barber shop when he's not in class. He looks forward to making a lot of money in Iraq — but only if the government can capitalize on its oil trade and foreign investments.

As part of Iraq's growing youth population — which accounts for about 60 percent of the nation's people — all three say they are impatient at best about where their country is headed. The U.S.-led invasion of March 20, 2003, promised better lives for Iraqis after three decades of war, dictatorship and sanctions. Ten years later, the county is mired in widespread instability and political corruption.

Nevertheless, interviews and discussions across the country with more than a dozen Iraqi teenagers and young adults reveal a resiliency and refusal to abandon hope. Deadly violence is common, jobs are scarce and education is a luxury, but they say they are unwilling to give up on Iraq. Moreover, a government survey shows that 80 percent of young Iraqis don't want to move to another country.

"I want my country to be better, and I want my people to enjoy stable life and security, and for Iraq to be like a Western country," said Shahad Abdul-Amir Abbas, whose father was killed in 2005 in the widespread sectarian fighting that brought Iraq to the brink of civil war.

Abbas, a Shiite who attends college in Baghdad, wants to find a good-paying job and to marry, but thinks "my personal ambitions will not come true unless my country gets rid of all the security, political and economic problems."

An estimated 18 million people of Iraq's population of 30 million are younger than 25, according to data provided by the CIA and the United Nations. By comparison, Americans of that same age group make up about one-third of the U.S. population. Contraceptives are limited in Iraq, and an estimated 20 percent of girls ages 15 to 19 are married, according to the U.N.

The fate of Iraq's youth is a top concern for the U.N. envoy in Baghdad, especially as there are few — if any — obvious successors to the nation's aging political leaders. As the upcoming generation looks to the future, the decisions they make today — pursuing education, finding jobs, whether or whom to marry, and even to stay or leave the country — will help determine whether and how quickly Iraq is able to achieve peace and prosperity.

A 2009 study by the Iraqi Ministry of Youth and Sport reveals a decidedly traditional worldview among the nation's young people. The survey of 6,492 households across Iraq, focusing in large part on 15,087 people ages 10 to 30, concluded that 60 percent of the country's youth are generally optimistic about the future, especially teenage girls. The study was the first of its kind in Iraq, according to the U.N.

However, the study also found that nearly 40 percent refuse to talk to people deemed different than them. Slightly more than half — 52 percent — do not have friends from different religions or sects. And more than 90 percent believe women must have the approval of their husbands or families before they are allowed to work outside the home.

The survey has not been updated since 2009. It is currently being used to develop a national youth strategy, Iraqi government officials said.

U.N. envoy Martin Kobler said teenage and young Iraqi adults generally remain isolated from other religious sects. But a group of several dozen Iraqi youths he recently took on a series of field trips to different mosques and shrines indicated a curiosity and willingness to learn.

"They asked all kinds of questions — they just do not know about the other denominations," Kobler said in an interview Thursday. "And on one occasion, they interrupted the sheik, saying they don't want to hear about sectarian attitudes. They said, 'We want to hear about jobs, and about our future in Iraq — not sectarianism.'"

"The young people who have tolerance today will be adults with tolerance tomorrow," Kobler said. "But young people with limited views and sectarianism today will have those views tomorrow. It's very important that this country stays together. Everything that works to separate the country along sectarian lines is not conducive to an atmosphere where everybody is an Iraqi."

Abdul-Wadoud Fawzi, a 25-year-old Sunni, struggles to be optimistic. He is a native of Fallujah, the former al-Qaeda stronghold in Iraq's west that has been a recent hotspot of anti-government protests. Each weekday morning, Fawzi drives a minibus of students to Anbar University in the city of Ramadi, about 45 minutes away. He had to drop out of school to help support his family, earning $300 a month as a driver.

"Studying might provide me with a better life and future," he said. "My hopes are similar to the hopes of all Iraqis — to live a peaceful and dignified life away from violence and war miseries. The country is getting worse, as long as justice is absent in Iraq, and it will not get better until we get rid of the unjust government."

The ministry study says nearly all youth — 92 percent — receive some formal schooling but that there's a high drop-out rate. In 2009, the study estimated that fewer than half of Iraqis between the ages of 15 and 24 were still in school, with more males than females enrolled.

Government officials have tried to help young people mostly by creating sports clubs, offering computer training and opening fine arts centers. The Youth and Sport ministry has an annual $840 million budget but no authority to create jobs.

Unemployment remains high among young Iraqis. Only 46 percent of people aged 25 to 30 had jobs in 2009, the government study showed. That's compared to 81 percent of working Americans of the same age last year, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Some of the best jobs in Iraq are with the government, where a midlevel worker makes about $600 a month. Those jobs aren't easy to get.

In the southern port city of Basra, Akram Hashim, 25, is earning pocket change at a photography store even though he's been trained in computer science. He says he does not have the political connections necessary to be given public work.

"A stable government job to help my family is what is needed," said Hashim, a Shiite who lives with his wife and daughter in his parents' home with six other relatives. "It is very hard to get a good job."

How does he see his country's future? "It could get worse," he said gloomily.

Basra is surrounded by some of the world's most lucrative oil fields, which are being mined for foreign investors. Yet Hashim's desire for a government job reflects a deep-seated reluctance among many Iraqis to wean themselves off reliable employment. Kobler said that is rooted in part by security fears: If the violence continues, fewer foreign investors will come to Iraq, and jobs could dry up.

A notable exception is in the self-rule Kurdish region in Iraq's north. The region is generally more stable and financially well-off than the rest of Iraq, largely because it was not under Saddam Hussein's control in 2003 and was spared the violence, military and political chaos in the years after the U.S.-led occupation.

Alan Fatih Kareem, 18, a Kurdish high school student who works in his father's barber shop in the regional capital of Irbil, says new foreign investment and influences have given him a taste of the West and, generally, should bode well for Iraq's future.

"Iraq and Kurdistan are making remarkable progress in terms of development, construction and mixing with foreigners," Kareem said. "I'm looking forward. I don't know what will happen in the future, but I'm sure Iraq will change for the better."

The youth study shows that more than half of young adults own cell phones, which were nonexistent in Iraq 10 years ago. It also found that more than four out of five young Iraqis have no desire to leave their homeland, despite its many problems.

But Iraq's leaders cannot afford to let security threats and bleak economic opportunities go unchecked, Kobler said. "My impression is (Iraqi youth) want to stay," he said. "But if framework conditions are as they are, then they will want to leave."

In the holy Shiite city of Najaf, Intithar Hussein has put faith in her up-and-coming generation. She is a satellite television reporter in a country where, according to the study, only a 52 percent majority of young men believe women should work. She does not care.

"The important thing is to have the smile of victory on your face when you achieve what you work hard to do," said Hussein, 22. "The size of corruption and destruction is big, but the well-doing hands of Iraqis who are working to draw a shining future are many."

[Doc]

Given up even the pretense of an argument Hans?

[Ibrahim]

Given up even the pretense of an argument Hans?

Argument against what?

[Hans Bulvai]

Given up even the pretense of an argument Hans?

The article says nothing.
a feeble attempt to paint a somewhat rosey picture of a country destroyed for generations to come. A million widows and 4 million orphans.
4 hours of electricity and long lines for petrol in a country exporting 3 million barrels a day. Iran pretty much runs the government in Baghdad. The North is a breakaway region. And whats in between is in open revolt. Security practically does not exist.

Funny thing with all of what is being written these days for the 10th anniversary of the lie-driven war, this bullshit article comes out. The Telegraph a few days ago interviewed the guy who was first on the scene after the Statue of Saddam came tumbling down. He was the guy that used a hammer to beat the statue. His picture became famous worldwide. In his interview, he flat out told of his regret. He yearned for the days of Saddam. A single dictator that held the country together, provided security and a functioning infrastructure. And no theft and corruption; punishable by death.

This is but one voice from thousands that say the same thing.

Look at this. There is nothing really to argue about.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/21/e ... eran_tomas

XG7nSiiHphk

5eBgRcgLNW0

[Doc]

Given up even the pretense of an argument Hans?

The article says nothing.
a feeble attempt to paint a somewhat rosey picture of a country destroyed for generations to come. A million widows and 4 million orphans.
4 hours of electricity and long lines for petrol in a country exporting 3 million barrels a day. Iran pretty much runs the government in Baghdad. The North is a breakaway region. And whats in between is in open revolt. Security practically does not exist.

Funny thing with all of what is being written these days for the 10th anniversary of the lie-driven war, this bullshit article comes out. The Telegraph a few days ago interviewed the guy who was first on the scene after the Statue of Saddam came tumbling down. He was the guy that used a hammer to beat the statue. His picture became famous worldwide. In his interview, he flat out told of his regret. He yearned for the days of Saddam. A single dictator that held the country together, provided security and a functioning infrastructure. And no theft and corruption; punishable by death.

This is but one voice from thousands that say the same thing.

Look at this. There is nothing really to argue about.

So you figure there was no corruption under Saddam because Saddam:

1)Used up all the money building his 54 palaces?
2)Used all the money to bribe European politicians to help get rid of the UN snactions?
3)Used all the money to buy and build weapons to kill Kurds and Shites?
4) Used all the money to build toture chambers to torture men, women, and their children in?
5)etc..etc..etc..

[Ibrahim]

So you figure there was no corruption under Saddam because Saddam:

Nobody said there wasn't corruption or abuse under Saddam, but the country was not comprehensively destroyed by an invasion, then subjected to the abuses of an occupying army. So at the end of the day there was still a function state and economy, which was replaced with a ruined state and no economy. Your family could still be raped/tortured/murdered, but now it would be done by US soldiers or US-paid militias rather than Baathist goons. Kind of a lateral.

[monster_gardener]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... q/1992777/

Born in war and poverty, youth don't abandon Iraq
1:57p.m. EDT March 16, 2013
iraq next generation

(Photo: Hadi Mizban, AP)
Story Highlights

60 percent of Iraq's population is under 25
Survey: 80 percent of young Iraqis don't want to move
Unemployment among 25-30-year olds: 54 percent

BAGHDAD (AP) — The 21-year-old college student in Baghdad lost her father during the Iraq War to gunmen from a rival Muslim sect. Now she dreams of an Iraq where all people can "enjoy stable life and security."

The young bus driver from a former al-Qaeda stronghold had to drop out of school to help support his family. He struggles to make ends meet but longs to resume his education.

The teenager from the northern Kurdish region works in his father's barber shop when he's not in class. He looks forward to making a lot of money in Iraq — but only if the government can capitalize on its oil trade and foreign investments.

As part of Iraq's growing youth population — which accounts for about 60 percent of the nation's people — all three say they are impatient at best about where their country is headed. The U.S.-led invasion of March 20, 2003, promised better lives for Iraqis after three decades of war, dictatorship and sanctions. Ten years later, the county is mired in widespread instability and political corruption.

Nevertheless, interviews and discussions across the country with more than a dozen Iraqi teenagers and young adults reveal a resiliency and refusal to abandon hope. Deadly violence is common, jobs are scarce and education is a luxury, but they say they are unwilling to give up on Iraq. Moreover, a government survey shows that 80 percent of young Iraqis don't want to move to another country.

"I want my country to be better, and I want my people to enjoy stable life and security, and for Iraq to be like a Western country," said Shahad Abdul-Amir Abbas, whose father was killed in 2005 in the widespread sectarian fighting that brought Iraq to the brink of civil war.

Abbas, a Shiite who attends college in Baghdad, wants to find a good-paying job and to marry, but thinks "my personal ambitions will not come true unless my country gets rid of all the security, political and economic problems."

An estimated 18 million people of Iraq's population of 30 million are younger than 25, according to data provided by the CIA and the United Nations. By comparison, Americans of that same age group make up about one-third of the U.S. population. Contraceptives are limited in Iraq, and an estimated 20 percent of girls ages 15 to 19 are married, according to the U.N.

The fate of Iraq's youth is a top concern for the U.N. envoy in Baghdad, especially as there are few — if any — obvious successors to the nation's aging political leaders. As the upcoming generation looks to the future, the decisions they make today — pursuing education, finding jobs, whether or whom to marry, and even to stay or leave the country — will help determine whether and how quickly Iraq is able to achieve peace and prosperity.

A 2009 study by the Iraqi Ministry of Youth and Sport reveals a decidedly traditional worldview among the nation's young people. The survey of 6,492 households across Iraq, focusing in large part on 15,087 people ages 10 to 30, concluded that 60 percent of the country's youth are generally optimistic about the future, especially teenage girls. The study was the first of its kind in Iraq, according to the U.N.

However, the study also found that nearly 40 percent refuse to talk to people deemed different than them. Slightly more than half — 52 percent — do not have friends from different religions or sects. And more than 90 percent believe women must have the approval of their husbands or families before they are allowed to work outside the home.

The survey has not been updated since 2009. It is currently being used to develop a national youth strategy, Iraqi government officials said.

U.N. envoy Martin Kobler said teenage and young Iraqi adults generally remain isolated from other religious sects. But a group of several dozen Iraqi youths he recently took on a series of field trips to different mosques and shrines indicated a curiosity and willingness to learn.

"They asked all kinds of questions — they just do not know about the other denominations," Kobler said in an interview Thursday. "And on one occasion, they interrupted the sheik, saying they don't want to hear about sectarian attitudes. They said, 'We want to hear about jobs, and about our future in Iraq — not sectarianism.'"

"The young people who have tolerance today will be adults with tolerance tomorrow," Kobler said. "But young people with limited views and sectarianism today will have those views tomorrow. It's very important that this country stays together. Everything that works to separate the country along sectarian lines is not conducive to an atmosphere where everybody is an Iraqi."

Abdul-Wadoud Fawzi, a 25-year-old Sunni, struggles to be optimistic. He is a native of Fallujah, the former al-Qaeda stronghold in Iraq's west that has been a recent hotspot of anti-government protests. Each weekday morning, Fawzi drives a minibus of students to Anbar University in the city of Ramadi, about 45 minutes away. He had to drop out of school to help support his family, earning $300 a month as a driver.

"Studying might provide me with a better life and future," he said. "My hopes are similar to the hopes of all Iraqis — to live a peaceful and dignified life away from violence and war miseries. The country is getting worse, as long as justice is absent in Iraq, and it will not get better until we get rid of the unjust government."

The ministry study says nearly all youth — 92 percent — receive some formal schooling but that there's a high drop-out rate. In 2009, the study estimated that fewer than half of Iraqis between the ages of 15 and 24 were still in school, with more males than females enrolled.

Government officials have tried to help young people mostly by creating sports clubs, offering computer training and opening fine arts centers. The Youth and Sport ministry has an annual $840 million budget but no authority to create jobs.

Unemployment remains high among young Iraqis. Only 46 percent of people aged 25 to 30 had jobs in 2009, the government study showed. That's compared to 81 percent of working Americans of the same age last year, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Some of the best jobs in Iraq are with the government, where a midlevel worker makes about $600 a month. Those jobs aren't easy to get.

In the southern port city of Basra, Akram Hashim, 25, is earning pocket change at a photography store even though he's been trained in computer science. He says he does not have the political connections necessary to be given public work.

"A stable government job to help my family is what is needed," said Hashim, a Shiite who lives with his wife and daughter in his parents' home with six other relatives. "It is very hard to get a good job."

How does he see his country's future? "It could get worse," he said gloomily.

Basra is surrounded by some of the world's most lucrative oil fields, which are being mined for foreign investors. Yet Hashim's desire for a government job reflects a deep-seated reluctance among many Iraqis to wean themselves off reliable employment. Kobler said that is rooted in part by security fears: If the violence continues, fewer foreign investors will come to Iraq, and jobs could dry up.

A notable exception is in the self-rule Kurdish region in Iraq's north. The region is generally more stable and financially well-off than the rest of Iraq, largely because it was not under Saddam Hussein's control in 2003 and was spared the violence, military and political chaos in the years after the U.S.-led occupation.

Alan Fatih Kareem, 18, a Kurdish high school student who works in his father's barber shop in the regional capital of Irbil, says new foreign investment and influences have given him a taste of the West and, generally, should bode well for Iraq's future.

"Iraq and Kurdistan are making remarkable progress in terms of development, construction and mixing with foreigners," Kareem said. "I'm looking forward. I don't know what will happen in the future, but I'm sure Iraq will change for the better."

The youth study shows that more than half of young adults own cell phones, which were nonexistent in Iraq 10 years ago. It also found that more than four out of five young Iraqis have no desire to leave their homeland, despite its many problems.

But Iraq's leaders cannot afford to let security threats and bleak economic opportunities go unchecked, Kobler said. "My impression is (Iraqi youth) want to stay," he said. "But if framework conditions are as they are, then they will want to leave."

In the holy Shiite city of Najaf, Intithar Hussein has put faith in her up-and-coming generation. She is a satellite television reporter in a country where, according to the study, only a 52 percent majority of young men believe women should work. She does not care.

"The important thing is to have the smile of victory on your face when you achieve what you work hard to do," said Hussein, 22. "The size of corruption and destruction is big, but the well-doing hands of Iraqis who are working to draw a shining future are many."

A notable exception is in the self-rule Kurdish region in Iraq's north. The region is generally more stable and financially well-off than the rest of Iraq, largely because it was not under Saddam Hussein's control in 2003 and was spared the violence, military and political chaos in the years after the U.S.-led occupation.

Alan Fatih Kareem, 18, a Kurdish high school student who works in his father's barber shop in the regional capital of Irbil, says new foreign investment and influences have given him a taste of the West and, generally, should bode well for Iraq's future.

"Iraq and Kurdistan are making remarkable progress in terms of development, construction and mixing with foreigners," Kareem said. "I'm looking forward. I don't know what will happen in the future, but I'm sure Iraq will change for the better."

[quote = "Hans Bulvai"]The North is a breakaway region.[/quote]

Thank You Very Much for your posts, Doc & Hans,

Sounds like the Kurds are getting their Way

For the moment anyway...

It's bin a long time since their SALADin days....

AIUI sometimes/often not nice people as with that Kurdish Muslim Mosquito Breeder Mullah Krekar .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mullah_Krekar#Views

And FGM etc.....

But much wisdom have they learned from the Turks in Armenia ......

And afterwards.....

Don't Trust Anyone but the mountains.....

Especially your Bosses.......

Especially if they are Turks.....

The youth study shows that more than half of young adults own cell phones, which were nonexistent in Iraq 10 years ago. It also found that more than four out of five young Iraqis have no desire to leave their homeland, despite its many problems.

Wondering if this may explain in part the 3G Cell phone complaint our Arrogant, Lazy, Lying, Droning, Duty Station Deserting, Golf Pro Son of a Bitch Eating President Obama had with the Palis.......

[Hans Bulvai]

Given up even the pretense of an argument Hans?

The article says nothing.
a feeble attempt to paint a somewhat rosey picture of a country destroyed for generations to come. A million widows and 4 million orphans.
4 hours of electricity and long lines for petrol in a country exporting 3 million barrels a day. Iran pretty much runs the government in Baghdad. The North is a breakaway region. And whats in between is in open revolt. Security practically does not exist.

Funny thing with all of what is being written these days for the 10th anniversary of the lie-driven war, this bullshit article comes out. The Telegraph a few days ago interviewed the guy who was first on the scene after the Statue of Saddam came tumbling down. He was the guy that used a hammer to beat the statue. His picture became famous worldwide. In his interview, he flat out told of his regret. He yearned for the days of Saddam. A single dictator that held the country together, provided security and a functioning infrastructure. And no theft and corruption; punishable by death.

This is but one voice from thousands that say the same thing.

Look at this. There is nothing really to argue about.

So you figure there was no corruption under Saddam because Saddam:

1)Used up all the money building his 54 palaces?
2)Used all the money to bribe European politicians to help get rid of the UN snactions?
3)Used all the money to buy and build weapons to kill Kurds and Shites?
4) Used all the money to build toture chambers to torture men, women, and their children in?
5)etc..etc..etc..

1- Saddam was the president of a wealthy nation. So he had 54 palaces... So what? I guess a good enough reason to destroy the countryand kill endless Iraqis in the process. Because he had 54 palaces. Fact: THere was no corruption in Iraq under Saddam. Bribery was punishable by death. BUt I will tell you what they had. Free health care. Security. A functioning infrastructure. Electricity all day, every day. Running water. An illeteracy rate of almost zero. Women rights. Industry. Etc.. etc..

2- Get rid of sanctions? You mean the ones for the WMD's that they found" around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat".

3- Who sold him the weapons to kill Kurds and Shiites then tunred a blind eye? Who told the Shiites to rise then allowed the gunships to mow them down? And what would any government in the world do if someone was waging a low-level war against the establishment? I don't see you wanting to invade India for what they do in Kashmir, or Spain for what they do to ETA or the UK for what they have been doing to the Irish? Why not? And why is it ok for Israel to kill Shiites (Lebanese and Iranians) and the scum Bahrainy monarchy to do the same? I don't hear you RA RA for their rights? And Kurds? Really? Kurds were blowing up cars in Baghdad and killing Iraqi soldiers kinda the same they deal with the Turks. Now you are worried about Shiite rights? He was your darling when he was killing Iranian Shiites. But not to approve of anyone killing anyone,

SEC. RUMSFELD: No, interestingly, there are Shi'ia religious leaders who are issuing fatwas, advising against supporting the Saddam Hussein regime and urging that they support the coalition forces. So it goes both ways.

What did/do you call those people who opposed the march to war?

4- Really? Pales in comparison to what is happening now. Pales to naked men pyramids and posing with dead bodies. Pales next to secret prisons and renditions.

But what you and me think does not matter. People by their thousands are yearning for the good ol' days of security and A/C inthe summer time. No long lines and for sure an infant mortality rate much lower than now.

Did you listen to Tomas Young? Or did you skip through it. Guess who he is blaming for his slow death and the thousands like him. Or the video below it?

54 palaces..

I don't have to figure there was no corruption. I know.

[Typhoon]

US reporters are busy writing self-serving warm and fuzzy agitprop [a.k.a. crap] on the 10th anniversary of one of the most meaningless wars that the US started.

In Vietnam one only had to destroy a village in order to save it. With inflation, it's now entire countries.

[Doc]

Given up even the pretense of an argument Hans?

The article says nothing.
a feeble attempt to paint a somewhat rosey picture of a country destroyed for generations to come. A million widows and 4 million orphans.
4 hours of electricity and long lines for petrol in a country exporting 3 million barrels a day. Iran pretty much runs the government in Baghdad. The North is a breakaway region. And whats in between is in open revolt. Security practically does not exist.

Funny thing with all of what is being written these days for the 10th anniversary of the lie-driven war, this bullshit article comes out. The Telegraph a few days ago interviewed the guy who was first on the scene after the Statue of Saddam came tumbling down. He was the guy that used a hammer to beat the statue. His picture became famous worldwide. In his interview, he flat out told of his regret. He yearned for the days of Saddam. A single dictator that held the country together, provided security and a functioning infrastructure. And no theft and corruption; punishable by death.

This is but one voice from thousands that say the same thing.

Look at this. There is nothing really to argue about.

So you figure there was no corruption under Saddam because Saddam:

1)Used up all the money building his 54 palaces?
2)Used all the money to bribe European politicians to help get rid of the UN snactions?
3)Used all the money to buy and build weapons to kill Kurds and Shites?
4) Used all the money to build toture chambers to torture men, women, and their children in?
5)etc..etc..etc..

1- Saddam was the president of a wealthy nation. So he had 54 palaces... So what? I guess a good enough reason to destroy the countryand kill endless Iraqis in the process. Because he had 54 palaces. Fact: THere was no corruption in Iraq under Saddam. Bribery was punishable by death. BUt I will tell you what they had. Free health care. Security. A functioning infrastructure. Electricity all day, every day. Running water. An illeteracy rate of almost zero. Women rights. Industry. Etc.. etc..

2- Get rid of sanctions? You mean the ones for the WMD's that they found" around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat".

3- Who sold him the weapons to kill Kurds and Shiites then tunred a blind eye? Who told the Shiites to rise then allowed the gunships to mow them down? And what would any government in the world do if someone was waging a low-level war against the establishment? I don't see you wanting to invade India for what they do in Kashmir, or Spain for what they do to ETA or the UK for what they have been doing to the Irish? Why not? And why is it ok for Israel to kill Shiites (Lebanese and Iranians) and the scum Bahrainy monarchy to do the same? I don't hear you RA RA for their rights? And Kurds? Really? Kurds were blowing up cars in Baghdad and killing Iraqi soldiers kinda the same they deal with the Turks. Now you are worried about Shiite rights? He was your darling when he was killing Iranian Shiites. But not to approve of anyone killing anyone,

SEC. RUMSFELD: No, interestingly, there are Shi'ia religious leaders who are issuing fatwas, advising against supporting the Saddam Hussein regime and urging that they support the coalition forces. So it goes both ways.

What did/do you call those people who opposed the march to war?

4- Really? Pales in comparison to what is happening now. Pales to naked men pyramids and posing with dead bodies. Pales next to secret prisons and renditions.

But what you and me think does not matter. People by their thousands are yearning for the good ol' days of security and A/C inthe summer time. No long lines and for sure an infant mortality rate much lower than now.

Did you listen to Tomas Young? Or did you skip through it. Guess who he is blaming for his slow death and the thousands like him. Or the video below it?

54 palaces..

I don't have to figure there was no corruption. I know.

'

Do you find a million dead Iraqi children so amusing?

54 Palaces built with oil for food money while a million Iraqi children died from starvation and lack of medicine. Now how many people was it that were killed by all sides during the occupation of Iraq?

It is much easier to find self proclaimed victims. I posted a story that says young Iraqis have chosen to be men rather than self proclaimed victims. But you prefer the stories about how good the brutality of Saddam was compared to now.

Well guess what? This is what you are supporting




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeFDv2EI ... page#t=80s

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/f ... 058253.stm

Saturday, 22 June, 2002, 11:26 GMT 12:26 UK
Iraq's tortured children
Saddam Hussein and his advisers
Some witnesses had direct experience of child torture


By John Sweeney
BBC correspondent in Iraq

The star witness against the government of Iraq hobbled into the room, her legs braced with clumsy metal callipers. "Anna" had been tortured two years ago. She is now four years old.
Her father, Ali, is a thick-set Iraqi who used to work for Saddam's psychopathic son, Uday. Some time after the bungled assassination of Uday, Ali fell under suspicion.
Saddam Hussein
Saddam's secret police have been accused of torturing children

He fled north, to the Kurdish safe haven policed by Western fighter planes, but leaving his wife and daughter behind in Baghdad.

So the secret police came for his wife. Where is he? They tortured her. And when she didn't break, they tortured his daughter.

"When did you last see your father? Has he phoned? Has he been in contact?" They half-crushed the toddler's feet.

Now, she doesn't walk, she hobbles, and Ali fears that Saddam's men have crippled his daughter for life. So Ali talked to us.

I have been to Baghdad a number of times. Being in Iraq is like creeping around inside someone else's migraine. The fear is so omnipresent you could almost eat it. No one talks.

So listening to Ali speak freely was a revelation. He is not exactly a contender to be the next Archbishop of Canterbury.

He has the heft of an enforcer. He told me that he had tortured for the regime. But I don't think he was lying to us.

'Faked funerals'

Ali talked about the paranoid frenzy that rules Baghdad - the tortures, the killings, the corruption, the crazy gangster violence of Saddam and his two sons.

And the faking of the mass baby funerals.

You may have seen them on TV. Small white coffins parading through the streets of Baghdad on the roofs of taxis, an angry crowd of mourners, condemning Western sanctions for killing the children of Iraq.


They used to collect children's bodies and put them in freezers for two, three or even six or seven months

Usefully, the ages of the dead babies - "three days old", "four days old" - are written in English on the coffins. I wonder who did that.

Ali gave us the inside track on the racket. There aren't enough dead babies around. So the regime stores them for a mass funeral.

He said that he was friends with a taxi driver - he gave his name - whose son had a position in the regime.

Ali continued, he told me that he had to go to Najaf - a town 160km (100 miles) from Baghdad - in order to bring children's bodies from various freezers there, and that the smell was unbearable.

They used to collect children's bodies and put them in freezers for two, three or even six or seven months - God knows - until the smell got unbearable.

Then, they arrange the mass funerals. The logic being, the more dead babies, the better for Saddam. That way, he can weaken public support in the West for sanctions.

That means that parents who have lost a baby can't bury it until the regime says so.

So how could it be that people would put up with this sickening exploitation of grief?

A murder story

Ali told another story. He had seen Uday kill with his own eyes. This was some years ago, before the assassination attempt left Saddam's oldest son half-paralysed and impotent.

Uday's lust is famous in Baghdad. He wanted a woman who played tennis at Baghdad's Sports Club and he and Ali went round to the club.

Uday Hussein
A witness saw Saddam Hussein's son, Uday, murder another man
As Uday was turning into the car park, a tennis ball came over the fence and bounced against the car of the woman he desired.

The tennis player came into the car park to retrieve the ball, apologised to the woman. Maybe there was a bit of flirting - that does happen at tennis courts, even in England.

From his car Uday watched the two of them. Enraged, he took out a wooden cosh and beat the tennis player's brains out.

And then - get this - a few days later, the dead man's relatives apologised to Uday for the distress their son had caused him.

Incredible? I don't think so.

In northern Iraq - the only part of the country where people can speak freely - we met six other witnesses who had direct experience of child torture, including another of Saddam's enforcers - now in a Kurdish prison - who told us that an interrogator could do anything:

"We could make a kebab out of the child if we wanted to." And then he chuckled.

Iraqi women protest against UN sanctions
Angry crowds of mourners condemn the West's sanctions
In that environment, with that background noise of fear, it is not impossible to imagine that the government of Iraq could have conned the world, inventing numbers of dead babies that the gullible - and that includes the United Nations - accept as reliable.

While we were in the north of Iraq, the chairman of the Great Britain Iraq Society, Labour MP George Galloway, was in Baghdad.

He popped up on Iraqi TV and bared his soul. "When I hear the word Iraq," he said, "I hear someone calling my name."

I don't. When I hear the word Iraq, I hear a tortured child, screaming.

Feel good about it now?

[Ibrahim]

You're not going to phase Hans with shock pictures of Iraq, Doc. He knows more about that than you or I.

Maybe I'm not clear on your position. Are you actually trying to paint the US invasion and occupation as a positive thing for Iraqis? If not, what are you trying to say? The first article you posted was about Iraqis wanting to stay in Iraq and rebuild, which everybody thinks is great but it doesn't have anything to do with the war except that they are rebuilding because of it.

[Doc]

You're not going to phase Hans with shock pictures of Iraq, Doc. He knows more about that than you or I.

Maybe I'm not clear on your position. Are you actually trying to paint the US invasion and occupation as a positive thing for Iraqis? If not, what are you trying to say? The first article you posted was about Iraqis wanting to stay in Iraq and rebuild, which everybody thinks is great but it doesn't have anything to do with the war except that they are rebuilding because of it.

I am saying given the brutal nature of the Saddam, regime and his psychopathic sons that the invasion to end it was a positive thing. The US had the ability to continue the war in 1991 that would have toppled Saddam then. Not doing so left the US partly responsible for everything that Saddam did there after. I mean screw the real politic of it we should have removed him then. As Collin Powell infamously said "You break it you bought it" It was broken in 1991. It was absolutely shameful we did not take responsibility then outside the Kurdish north. And that responsibility was only taken for a limited time.

But if the 2003 invasion means that now young Iraqis are going to fight for a better future than having their children tortured for things their parents are the "suspected" of doing, then HELL YES!! it was a positive thing. The world is getting to be much to small of a place to tolerate such monsters as Saddam.

[Ibrahim]

You're not going to phase Hans with shock pictures of Iraq, Doc. He knows more about that than you or I.

Maybe I'm not clear on your position. Are you actually trying to paint the US invasion and occupation as a positive thing for Iraqis? If not, what are you trying to say? The first article you posted was about Iraqis wanting to stay in Iraq and rebuild, which everybody thinks is great but it doesn't have anything to do with the war except that they are rebuilding because of it.

I am saying given the brutal nature of the Saddam, regime and his psychopathic sons that the invasion to end it was a positive thing. The US had the ability to continue the war in 1991 that would have toppled Saddam then. Not doing so left the US partly responsible for everything that Saddam did there after. I mean screw the real politic of it we should have removed him then. As Collin Powell infamously said "You break it you bought it" It was broken in 1991. It was absolutely shameful we did not take responsibility then outside the Kurdish north. And that responsibility was only taken for a limited time.

But if the 2003 invasion means that now young Iraqis are going to fight for a better future than having their children tortured for things their parents are the "suspected" of doing, then HELL YES!! it was a positive thing. The world is getting to be much to small of a place to tolerate such monsters as Saddam.

It certainly had the potential to be a positive thing, had the US occupation not proven more destructive and cruel than Saddam's regime, but that's usually the case with invasions. Moreover, Iraqis note that Saddam rebuilt Baghdad in six months after the first Gulf War, and that was under sanctions, whereas the US couldn't rebuild it in seven years.

Removing him in 1991 would certainly have been better. Better still not creating, arming, and supporting him in the 80's, but viewed as an entire story of the US involvement in Iraq how can the US appear as anything but negative?

[Hans Bulvai]

Given up even the pretense of an argument Hans?

The article says nothing.
a feeble attempt to paint a somewhat rosey picture of a country destroyed for generations to come. A million widows and 4 million orphans.
4 hours of electricity and long lines for petrol in a country exporting 3 million barrels a day. Iran pretty much runs the government in Baghdad. The North is a breakaway region. And whats in between is in open revolt. Security practically does not exist.

Funny thing with all of what is being written these days for the 10th anniversary of the lie-driven war, this bullshit article comes out. The Telegraph a few days ago interviewed the guy who was first on the scene after the Statue of Saddam came tumbling down. He was the guy that used a hammer to beat the statue. His picture became famous worldwide. In his interview, he flat out told of his regret. He yearned for the days of Saddam. A single dictator that held the country together, provided security and a functioning infrastructure. And no theft and corruption; punishable by death.

This is but one voice from thousands that say the same thing.

Look at this. There is nothing really to argue about.

So you figure there was no corruption under Saddam because Saddam:

1)Used up all the money building his 54 palaces?
2)Used all the money to bribe European politicians to help get rid of the UN snactions?
3)Used all the money to buy and build weapons to kill Kurds and Shites?
4) Used all the money to build toture chambers to torture men, women, and their children in?
5)etc..etc..etc..

1- Saddam was the president of a wealthy nation. So he had 54 palaces... So what? I guess a good enough reason to destroy the countryand kill endless Iraqis in the process. Because he had 54 palaces. Fact: THere was no corruption in Iraq under Saddam. Bribery was punishable by death. BUt I will tell you what they had. Free health care. Security. A functioning infrastructure. Electricity all day, every day. Running water. An illeteracy rate of almost zero. Women rights. Industry. Etc.. etc..

2- Get rid of sanctions? You mean the ones for the WMD's that they found" around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat".

3- Who sold him the weapons to kill Kurds and Shiites then tunred a blind eye? Who told the Shiites to rise then allowed the gunships to mow them down? And what would any government in the world do if someone was waging a low-level war against the establishment? I don't see you wanting to invade India for what they do in Kashmir, or Spain for what they do to ETA or the UK for what they have been doing to the Irish? Why not? And why is it ok for Israel to kill Shiites (Lebanese and Iranians) and the scum Bahrainy monarchy to do the same? I don't hear you RA RA for their rights? And Kurds? Really? Kurds were blowing up cars in Baghdad and killing Iraqi soldiers kinda the same they deal with the Turks. Now you are worried about Shiite rights? He was your darling when he was killing Iranian Shiites. But not to approve of anyone killing anyone,

SEC. RUMSFELD: No, interestingly, there are Shi'ia religious leaders who are issuing fatwas, advising against supporting the Saddam Hussein regime and urging that they support the coalition forces. So it goes both ways.

What did/do you call those people who opposed the march to war?

4- Really? Pales in comparison to what is happening now. Pales to naked men pyramids and posing with dead bodies. Pales next to secret prisons and renditions.

But what you and me think does not matter. People by their thousands are yearning for the good ol' days of security and A/C inthe summer time. No long lines and for sure an infant mortality rate much lower than now.

Did you listen to Tomas Young? Or did you skip through it. Guess who he is blaming for his slow death and the thousands like him. Or the video below it?

54 palaces..

I don't have to figure there was no corruption. I know.

'

Do you find a million dead Iraqi children so amusing?

54 Palaces built with oil for food money while a million Iraqi children died from starvation and lack of medicine. Now how many people was it that were killed by all sides during the occupation of Iraq?

It is much easier to find self proclaimed victims. I posted a story that says young Iraqis have chosen to be men rather than self proclaimed victims. But you prefer the stories about how good the brutality of Saddam was compared to now.

Well guess what? This is what you are supporting




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeFDv2EI ... page#t=80s

Actually, that is what you were supporting while the rest of Iraqis were living in fear. This is what you enabled with complete support from the liberal sheikhs of Saudia.

And, that first picture of Saddam Fedayeen is, well, bullshit. You see those fatigues worn by that headless corps is that of a possible Iranian soldier. The Fedayeen came on the seen much later.

And I am wary of a website making claims about pictures predating its existence by 10 and 15 years when articles like this appear in it...
Comical at best.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/215472.php

James Holmes, the gunman behind the Dark Knight massacre in Colorado last July, has reportedly turned Muslim and prays five times a day....

The source said Holmes has turned to Islam as a way of justifying his horrific murder spree in an Aurora, Colorado cinema on July 20 which left 12 people dead and 58 people wounded.

'He has brainwashed himself into believing he was on his own personal jihad and that his victims were infidels,' a prison source told the National Enquirer.

Their source is the national inquirer.

And that picture of Halabja, could be that of some town in Vietnam some 20 years earlier. Or that of Kurdistan some 60 years earlier. Are you going to condemn those or is Churchill a hero in your eyes?

Here is the full story of Halabja. And while it is reprehensible to kill civilians under any circumstance, doing so when a population is deemed treacherous is certainly not unique to Saddam's government. I wonder where he got those weapons from???

The Kurdish peshmerga guerrillas, supported by Iran, liberated Halabja in the final phase of the Iran-Iraq War. On March 16, 1988, after two days of conventional artillery attacks, Iraqi planes dropped gas canisters on the town.[4] The town and surrounding district were attacked with bombs, artillery fire, and chemical weapons, the latter of which proved most devastating. At least 5,000 people died as an immediate result of the chemical attack and it is estimated that a further 7,000 people were injured or suffered long term illness.[5] Most of the victims of the attack on the town of Halabja were Kurdish civilians.[6]

The attack is believed to have included the nerve agents Tabun, Sarin, and VX, as well as mustard gas. Though according to the former senior CIA analyst Stephen C. Pelletiere, Iraq did not have the nerve agent used in the attack, but did have mustard gas which was used in the Iraq-Iran war, and therefore the accusation of the Iraqi Armed Forces to be the party responsible for the massacre could not be validated. It is occasionally suggested that cyanide was also included among these chemical weapons, though this assertion has been cast into doubt, as cyanide is a natural byproduct of impure Tabun.[7] The attack on Halabja took place amidst the infamous Anfal campaign, in which Saddam Hussein violently suppressed Kurdish revolts during the Iran-Iraq war.

Before the war ended the Iraqis moved in on the ground and completely destroyed the town.[8] In March 2010, the Iraqi High Criminal Court recognized the Halabja massacre as genocide; the decision was welcomed by the Kurdistan Regional Government.[9]

And,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2719939.stm

Arthur "Bomber" Harris, who was to lead the bomber offensive against Germany 20 years later, did not conceal the fact that he aimed at civilian targets.
Harris said in 1924 that he had taught Iraqis "that within 45 minutes a full-sized village can be practically wiped out and a third of its inhabitants killed or wounded".

Some other British leaders were equally blood-thirsty. After the revolt of 1920, TE Lawrence - Lawrence of Arabia - wrote to the London Observer to say: "It is odd that we do not use poison gas on these occasions."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/f ... 058253.stm

Saturday, 22 June, 2002, 11:26 GMT 12:26 UK
Iraq's tortured children
Saddam Hussein and his advisers
Some witnesses had direct experience of child torture


By John Sweeney
BBC correspondent in Iraq

Saddam's regime for sure tortured people deemed to be a threat or agents and in cases innocent. No argument there. Torturing children is bullshit. That is reserved for the regions only democracy. During the 90's when poverty was rampant, a few Madame’s popped up that were selling Iraqi girls to the liberal sheikhs in Kuwait. Saddam's regime got a hold of them, had them decapitated and placed them in black trash bags in front of their homes as a lesson to those who would dare dishonor or cheapen Iraq's women. What you think of the tactic is open for discussion but it was effective.

And those million children starved not because Saddam built 54 palaces, but because an inhumane and immoral sanction was placed on a country that was not even allowed to import water treatment chemicals, basic needs, food, etc.. So immoral were the sanctions, that a few bribe-prone Euros resigned in protest.

Fact: More children did not die because the Iraqi government provided to every family (Sunni, Shiite, Christian, etc..) a rations card that gave every family rice, sugar, bread, powdered milk (smuggled from Turkey and Syria and as such was more expensive because it was a black market item. Cheating on the Oil-for_food programm I guess) to meet their needs. An amount of calories larger than what is needed for basic survival as was determined by the Middle East's only democracy for example.

Corruption? I define corruption as a few corporate politicians taking a whole country to war, bankrupting it, driving its young to slow suicide, allowing its infrastructure to deteriorate just so that they can fatten their own pockets. Then to add insult to injury, pay themselves bonuses when they fail and WE bail them out. Then they all walk without so much as a slap on the wrist. Then we have people bending over to defend them and talk about how evil Saddam was and how regardless of the now all too well known lies about WMD's and headless corpses, millions of children and soldiers affected by DU, it is worth it.

Feel good about it now?

Again, these are not my stories. These are from the horse's mouth. Did you watch this video?

YJgv1RCkosQ

[monster_gardener]

[quote="Hans Bulvai"

Saddam's regime for sure tortured people deemed to be a threat or agents and in cases innocent. No argument there. Torturing children is bullshit. That is reserved for the regions only democracy. During the 90's when poverty was rampant, a few Madame’s popped up that were selling Iraqi girls to the liberal sheikhs in Kuwait. Saddam's regime got a hold of them, had them decapitated and placed them in black trash bags in front of their homes as a lesson to those who would dare dishonor or cheapen Iraq's women. What you think of the tactic is open for discussion but it was effective.

And those million children starved not because Saddam built 54 palaces, but because an inhumane and immoral sanction was placed on a country that was not even allowed to import water treatment chemicals, basic needs, food, etc.. So immoral were the sanctions, that a few bribe-prone Euros resigned in protest.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.

Torturing children is bullshit. That is reserved for the regions only democracy.

Hmmnnnn........ I thought there was more than one democracy in the Middle East.........

The Turks.... How the Turks taught the Kurds much wisdom when they had their evil Whey/Way with the Armenians........ Granted that was just barely pre-democracy....

The Israelis......... Your previous posts........

The Iraqis........ Doc's posts above...........

The Palestinians.......Do we need to review this one again........ KUNTar and the HAMas Proctologists etc.

FWIW....... IMVHO pure democracy can sometimes mean dealing with a hell of full of crazy demons** ..........


Suspect that some of us might prefer a constitutional republic or even a constitutional monarchy to some democracies............

Better to be armed and mobile.........

Vote with your feet.........

Or Orion Rockets

To the Moon and beyond...........

And those million children starved not because Saddam built 54 palaces,

Really?................

How much food & medicine could have been saved if SadDam had built only 1 palace or maybe 2 ..........

SadDam's Spending Shenanigans reminds me of the current mis-ruler of Uz though perhaps on a larger scale.........

How much delay in plane boardings, dangerous criminals not released from federal custody, cancelled programs for school children could have been avoided by

Arrogant, Lazy, Lying, Droning , Duty Station Deserting, Maximum Sequestration pain for Uz/Maximum Pleasure for the Golf Pro Goof Off Son of a Bitch Eating Obama......

Not going on vacation with Tiger Woods



**Also known as Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey Killer Apes......

[Doc]

SNIPPED MANY STRAW MEN

Saddam's regime for sure tortured people deemed to be a threat or agents and in cases innocent. No argument there. Torturing children is bullshit. That is reserved for the regions only democracy. During the 90's when poverty was rampant, a few Madame’s popped up that were selling Iraqi girls to the liberal sheikhs in Kuwait. Saddam's regime got a hold of them, had them decapitated and placed them in black trash bags in front of their homes as a lesson to those who would dare dishonor or cheapen Iraq's women. What you think of the tactic is open for discussion but it was effective.

And those million children starved not because Saddam built 54 palaces, but because an inhumane and immoral sanction was placed on a country that was not even allowed to import water treatment chemicals, basic needs, food, etc.. So immoral were the sanctions, that a few bribe-prone Euros resigned in protest.

So how much did Saddam pay them to resign?

Fact: More children did not die because the Iraqi government provided to every family (Sunni, Shiite, Christian, etc..) a rations card that gave every family rice, sugar, bread, powdered milk (smuggled from Turkey and Syria and as such was more expensive because it was a black market item.

I am wary of a website making claims

Personally I am wary of people making claims in forums without given any supporting links

Cheating on the Oil-for_food programm I guess) to meet their needs. An amount of calories larger than what is needed for basic survival as was determined by the Middle East's only democracy for example.

Corruption? I define corruption as a few corporate politicians taking a whole country to war, bankrupting it, driving its young to slow suicide, allowing its infrastructure to deteriorate just so that they can fatten their own pockets. Then to add insult to injury, pay themselves bonuses when they fail and WE bail them out. Then they all walk without so much as a slap on the wrist. Then we have people bending over to defend them and talk about how evil Saddam was and how regardless of the now all too well known lies about WMD's and headless corpses, millions of children and soldiers affected by DU, it is worth it.

Feel good about it now?

Again, these are not my stories. These are from the horse's mouth. Did you watch this video?

YJgv1RCkosQ

shoe thrown at paul bremer ? Are you for real? Nice apologies for Saddam you made here BTW He built 54 palaces with oil for bribes money and the UN claimed one million dead Iraqi children. Why did all those Iraq children die of again?


Let's see you claim that people had plenty of food in Iraq during the embargo

These guys claim that the children died from malnourishment:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/ ... bargo.html

In 1993 doctors discovered an entirely new disease. Mothers too malnourished to breastfeed - in a country where obesity was once a problem - and unable to afford milk powder, had been feeding their babies sugared water or tea. Almost all their babies died. The doctors called them 'sugar babies'.

So which is it? Lack of food or lack of chemicals that also can be made into poison gas?

Saddam withheld dead bodies of babies fro their parents for burial so he could make a big show about dead babies.

Saddam was a brutal butcher. You are apologizing for him. You are the one claiming that two wrongs make a right. Apparently that argument is considered perfectly logical and moral in the ME. I know I have sure heard it enough times.

[Hans Bulvai]

SNIPPED MANY STRAW MEN

Saddam's regime for sure tortured people deemed to be a threat or agents and in cases innocent. No argument there. Torturing children is bullshit. That is reserved for the regions only democracy. During the 90's when poverty was rampant, a few Madame’s popped up that were selling Iraqi girls to the liberal sheikhs in Kuwait. Saddam's regime got a hold of them, had them decapitated and placed them in black trash bags in front of their homes as a lesson to those who would dare dishonor or cheapen Iraq's women. What you think of the tactic is open for discussion but it was effective.

And those million children starved not because Saddam built 54 palaces, but because an inhumane and immoral sanction was placed on a country that was not even allowed to import water treatment chemicals, basic needs, food, etc.. So immoral were the sanctions, that a few bribe-prone Euros resigned in protest.

So how much did Saddam pay them to resign?

Fact: More children did not die because the Iraqi government provided to every family (Sunni, Shiite, Christian, etc..) a rations card that gave every family rice, sugar, bread, powdered milk (smuggled from Turkey and Syria and as such was more expensive because it was a black market item.

I am wary of a website making claims

Personally I am wary of people making claims in forums without given any supporting links

Cheating on the Oil-for_food programm I guess) to meet their needs. An amount of calories larger than what is needed for basic survival as was determined by the Middle East's only democracy for example.

Corruption? I define corruption as a few corporate politicians taking a whole country to war, bankrupting it, driving its young to slow suicide, allowing its infrastructure to deteriorate just so that they can fatten their own pockets. Then to add insult to injury, pay themselves bonuses when they fail and WE bail them out. Then they all walk without so much as a slap on the wrist. Then we have people bending over to defend them and talk about how evil Saddam was and how regardless of the now all too well known lies about WMD's and headless corpses, millions of children and soldiers affected by DU, it is worth it.

Feel good about it now?

Again, these are not my stories. These are from the horse's mouth. Did you watch this video?

YJgv1RCkosQ

shoe thrown at paul bremer ? Are you for real? Nice apologies for Saddam you made here BTW He built 54 palaces with oil for bribes money and the UN claimed one million dead Iraqi children. Why did all those Iraq children die of again?


Let's see you claim that people had plenty of food in Iraq during the embargo

These guys claim that the children died from malnourishment:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/ ... bargo.html

In 1993 doctors discovered an entirely new disease. Mothers too malnourished to breastfeed - in a country where obesity was once a problem - and unable to afford milk powder, had been feeding their babies sugared water or tea. Almost all their babies died. The doctors called them 'sugar babies'.

So which is it? Lack of food or lack of chemicals that also can be made into poison gas?

Saddam withheld dead bodies of babies fro their parents for burial so he could make a big show about dead babies.

Saddam was a brutal butcher. You are apologizing for him. You are the one claiming that two wrongs make a right. Apparently that argument is considered perfectly logical and moral in the ME. I know I have sure heard it enough times.

Sure you have.

Here is the rest of the story from that website of yours.

In 1995 a glossy publication marking 'Fifty Years of Achievement' presented 'a sample of what the UN system has accomplished since 1945'. Impressive headings included self-congratulatory statements about humanitarian aid to victims of conflict, alleviating chronic hunger, providing safe drinking water and reducing child mortality.'
For Iraq-watchers the irony was stark. On 6 August 1990, Hiroshima Day, the most draconian embargo ever administered by the UN was imposed on Iraq in response to its invasion of Kuwait. By the end of the 40-day first Gulf War in February 1991, Iraq had been 'bombed back to a pre-industrial age', as threatened by then US Secretary of State James Baker. Further disaster was already unfolding.
'Nothing we had seen or read could have prepared us for this particular form of devastation,' wrote the then Special Rapporteur to the UN Martti Ahtisaari. 'The recent conflict has wrought near apocalyptic results on the economic infrastructure of what had been a rather urbanized and mechanized society. Now, most means of modern life support have been destroyed or rendered tenuous.
Iraq imported about 70 per cent of everything. The UN sanctions regime stopped the import of spare parts to maintain the supply of electricity, water and telephones. Dialysis patients died for lack of machine maintenance. Burns units had no rehydration salts, painkillers or antiseptics. Under the 'dual use' paragraph, operating theatres were denied disinfectants because, according to the UN, they could theoretically be used in chemical-weapons manufacture. Additives for water purification fell into the same category. Almost anything that came out of an Iraqi tap soon became lethal.
Within a year, childhood mortality spiralled. 'Baseline mortality for the under-five population rose from 43.2 to 128.5 per thousand,' an independent report concluded. Near-eradicated diseases such as polio, cholera and typhoid returned. Marasmus and
kwashiorkor - grotesque wasting diseases associated with starvation - made an appearance. Cancers soared, linked to the depleted uranium weapons used in the 1991 bombardment. The import of cancer drugs was prohibited - the 'dual use' paragraph again. An embargo imposed to force Iraq out of Kuwait quietly strangled a nation where half the population was estimated to be aged under 16.

Sugar babies

In 1993 doctors discovered an entirely new disease. Mothers too malnourished to breastfeed - in a country where obesity was once a problem - and unable to afford milk powder, had been feeding their babies sugared water or tea. Almost all their babies died. The doctors called them 'sugar babies'.
Diagnosed with a minor heart problem in 1990, seven-year-old Yasmin's doctors reassured her parents that as soon as the embargo was lifted a relatively simple procedure would fix it and she would be fine. During the next five years a minor problem slowly became a major one. She died in front of me and a gentle Iraqi friend. 'I hope they told her before she died that she had failed to comply with UN resolutions,' he said with fury, encapsulating the loathing for the UN throughout most of Iraq. Margaret Hassan, the redoubtable head of Care International in Baghdad kidnapped last October and brutally murdered - called the children of the embargo 'the lost generation'.
US and British politicians repeatedly claim that the '30 years of neglect' by the Iraqi regime was responsible for the woeful state of the country's infrastructure. Yet successive UN Co-ordinators in Iraq made their views about the real culprit quite clear. After all, embargoed goods never even entered the country. Collective punishment, from the cradle to the grave, meant that items refused entry ranged from a pair of hand-knitted leggings for a new grandchild - sent in a plastic bag from London - to school books, blackboards, pencils, just about an study materials and even 60 tonnes of shroud material. Under the 'oil for food' programme that was finally agreed in 1995, UN mine-detecting sniffer dogs in northern Iraq were allocated more food per head than the Iraqi people, according to the Director of the Iraq Programme Benon Sevon.

Puppet

With good reason, Iraqis feel that the UN is no more than a puppet of the US and Britain - who for 13 years bombed them almost daily without objection from the world's peacekeeper. Hundreds of reports and memos from the UN itself support their view. For example, in just one month in 1997 more than 70 contracts... were on hold at the request of the United States'; on Hiroshima Day (again) US naval forces intercepted a freighter inside Iraq territorial waters carrying vital hygiene supplies. Kofi Annan and the UN said little or nothing.
UN employees and weapons inspectors, however, did not seem to suffer. They stayed in the best hotels, drove new Landcruisers and saloon cars, sported the most sophisticated communications systems and computers in their headquarters at the Canal Hotel - all paid for with Iraqi money - while Iraqi doctors were denied even the paper on which to keep notes. The world may have been aghast at the bombing of the Canal Hotel, with searing loss of life, in August 2003, but one eminent Middle East commentator remarked to me: 'The Iraqi people see that building as the symbol of nearly 13 years of grinding misery. Why is anyone surprised?'
There were, however, some honourable exceptions. Indeed, two UN Assistant SecretaryGenerals - with 66 years' service between them - did more than anyone else to alert the world to the reality in Iraq. Denis Halliday and Count Hans von Sponeck resigned from the post of UN Coordinator in Iraq in 1998 and 2000 respectively. 'We are in the process of destroying an entire society,' said Halliday.. 'It is as simple and terrifying as that.'I remember returning to the Canal Hotel with Denis Halliday while working on a radio documentary. We arrived unannounced. The building emptied - Iraqis, people of all nationalities, mobbed him, hugged him, shook his hand, thanked him for his stand. Some of those who were there that day were later to die. They were the very best of what the UN is meant to stand for.
The young men now fighting the occupation had their childhood snatched away by the embargo - the older ones helplessly watched it happen.

People died because of a savage and immoral embargo. Where are the WMD's?

Personally I am wary of people making claims in forums without given any supporting links

Apparently that argument is considered perfectly logical and moral in the ME. I know I have sure heard it enough times.

Since you know so much about the Middle East I suggest you ask the many Iraqis you know about the "claim" above.

Straw men...
classic.

[Heracleum Persicum]

SNIPPED MANY STRAW MEN

Saddam's regime for sure tortured people deemed to be a threat or agents and in cases innocent. No argument there. Torturing children is bullshit. That is reserved for the regions only democracy. During the 90's when poverty was rampant, a few Madame’s popped up that were selling Iraqi girls to the liberal sheikhs in Kuwait. Saddam's regime got a hold of them, had them decapitated and placed them in black trash bags in front of their homes as a lesson to those who would dare dishonor or cheapen Iraq's women. What you think of the tactic is open for discussion but it was effective.

And those million children starved not because Saddam built 54 palaces, but because an inhumane and immoral sanction was placed on a country that was not even allowed to import water treatment chemicals, basic needs, food, etc.. So immoral were the sanctions, that a few bribe-prone Euros resigned in protest.

So how much did Saddam pay them to resign?

Fact: More children did not die because the Iraqi government provided to every family (Sunni, Shiite, Christian, etc..) a rations card that gave every family rice, sugar, bread, powdered milk (smuggled from Turkey and Syria and as such was more expensive because it was a black market item.

I am wary of a website making claims

Personally I am wary of people making claims in forums without given any supporting links

Cheating on the Oil-for_food programm I guess) to meet their needs. An amount of calories larger than what is needed for basic survival as was determined by the Middle East's only democracy for example.

Corruption? I define corruption as a few corporate politicians taking a whole country to war, bankrupting it, driving its young to slow suicide, allowing its infrastructure to deteriorate just so that they can fatten their own pockets. Then to add insult to injury, pay themselves bonuses when they fail and WE bail them out. Then they all walk without so much as a slap on the wrist. Then we have people bending over to defend them and talk about how evil Saddam was and how regardless of the now all too well known lies about WMD's and headless corpses, millions of children and soldiers affected by DU, it is worth it.

Feel good about it now?

Again, these are not my stories. These are from the horse's mouth. Did you watch this video?

YJgv1RCkosQ

shoe thrown at paul bremer ? Are you for real? Nice apologies for Saddam you made here BTW He built 54 palaces with oil for bribes money and the UN claimed one million dead Iraqi children. Why did all those Iraq children die of again?


Let's see you claim that people had plenty of food in Iraq during the embargo

These guys claim that the children died from malnourishment:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/ ... bargo.html

In 1993 doctors discovered an entirely new disease. Mothers too malnourished to breastfeed - in a country where obesity was once a problem - and unable to afford milk powder, had been feeding their babies sugared water or tea. Almost all their babies died. The doctors called them 'sugar babies'.

So which is it? Lack of food or lack of chemicals that also can be made into poison gas?

Saddam withheld dead bodies of babies fro their parents for burial so he could make a big show about dead babies.

Saddam was a brutal butcher. You are apologizing for him. You are the one claiming that two wrongs make a right. Apparently that argument is considered perfectly logical and moral in the ME. I know I have sure heard it enough times.

Sure you have.

Here is the rest of the story from that website of yours.

In 1995 a glossy publication marking 'Fifty Years of Achievement' presented 'a sample of what the UN system has accomplished since 1945'. Impressive headings included self-congratulatory statements about humanitarian aid to victims of conflict, alleviating chronic hunger, providing safe drinking water and reducing child mortality.'
For Iraq-watchers the irony was stark. On 6 August 1990, Hiroshima Day, the most draconian embargo ever administered by the UN was imposed on Iraq in response to its invasion of Kuwait. By the end of the 40-day first Gulf War in February 1991, Iraq had been 'bombed back to a pre-industrial age', as threatened by then US Secretary of State James Baker. Further disaster was already unfolding.
'Nothing we had seen or read could have prepared us for this particular form of devastation,' wrote the then Special Rapporteur to the UN Martti Ahtisaari. 'The recent conflict has wrought near apocalyptic results on the economic infrastructure of what had been a rather urbanized and mechanized society. Now, most means of modern life support have been destroyed or rendered tenuous.
Iraq imported about 70 per cent of everything. The UN sanctions regime stopped the import of spare parts to maintain the supply of electricity, water and telephones. Dialysis patients died for lack of machine maintenance. Burns units had no rehydration salts, painkillers or antiseptics. Under the 'dual use' paragraph, operating theatres were denied disinfectants because, according to the UN, they could theoretically be used in chemical-weapons manufacture. Additives for water purification fell into the same category. Almost anything that came out of an Iraqi tap soon became lethal.
Within a year, childhood mortality spiralled. 'Baseline mortality for the under-five population rose from 43.2 to 128.5 per thousand,' an independent report concluded. Near-eradicated diseases such as polio, cholera and typhoid returned. Marasmus and
kwashiorkor - grotesque wasting diseases associated with starvation - made an appearance. Cancers soared, linked to the depleted uranium weapons used in the 1991 bombardment. The import of cancer drugs was prohibited - the 'dual use' paragraph again. An embargo imposed to force Iraq out of Kuwait quietly strangled a nation where half the population was estimated to be aged under 16.

Sugar babies

In 1993 doctors discovered an entirely new disease. Mothers too malnourished to breastfeed - in a country where obesity was once a problem - and unable to afford milk powder, had been feeding their babies sugared water or tea. Almost all their babies died. The doctors called them 'sugar babies'.
Diagnosed with a minor heart problem in 1990, seven-year-old Yasmin's doctors reassured her parents that as soon as the embargo was lifted a relatively simple procedure would fix it and she would be fine. During the next five years a minor problem slowly became a major one. She died in front of me and a gentle Iraqi friend. 'I hope they told her before she died that she had failed to comply with UN resolutions,' he said with fury, encapsulating the loathing for the UN throughout most of Iraq. Margaret Hassan, the redoubtable head of Care International in Baghdad kidnapped last October and brutally murdered - called the children of the embargo 'the lost generation'.
US and British politicians repeatedly claim that the '30 years of neglect' by the Iraqi regime was responsible for the woeful state of the country's infrastructure. Yet successive UN Co-ordinators in Iraq made their views about the real culprit quite clear. After all, embargoed goods never even entered the country. Collective punishment, from the cradle to the grave, meant that items refused entry ranged from a pair of hand-knitted leggings for a new grandchild - sent in a plastic bag from London - to school books, blackboards, pencils, just about an study materials and even 60 tonnes of shroud material. Under the 'oil for food' programme that was finally agreed in 1995, UN mine-detecting sniffer dogs in northern Iraq were allocated more food per head than the Iraqi people, according to the Director of the Iraq Programme Benon Sevon.

Puppet

With good reason, Iraqis feel that the UN is no more than a puppet of the US and Britain - who for 13 years bombed them almost daily without objection from the world's peacekeeper. Hundreds of reports and memos from the UN itself support their view. For example, in just one month in 1997 more than 70 contracts... were on hold at the request of the United States'; on Hiroshima Day (again) US naval forces intercepted a freighter inside Iraq territorial waters carrying vital hygiene supplies. Kofi Annan and the UN said little or nothing.
UN employees and weapons inspectors, however, did not seem to suffer. They stayed in the best hotels, drove new Landcruisers and saloon cars, sported the most sophisticated communications systems and computers in their headquarters at the Canal Hotel - all paid for with Iraqi money - while Iraqi doctors were denied even the paper on which to keep notes. The world may have been aghast at the bombing of the Canal Hotel, with searing loss of life, in August 2003, but one eminent Middle East commentator remarked to me: 'The Iraqi people see that building as the symbol of nearly 13 years of grinding misery. Why is anyone surprised?'
There were, however, some honourable exceptions. Indeed, two UN Assistant SecretaryGenerals - with 66 years' service between them - did more than anyone else to alert the world to the reality in Iraq. Denis Halliday and Count Hans von Sponeck resigned from the post of UN Coordinator in Iraq in 1998 and 2000 respectively. 'We are in the process of destroying an entire society,' said Halliday.. 'It is as simple and terrifying as that.'I remember returning to the Canal Hotel with Denis Halliday while working on a radio documentary. We arrived unannounced. The building emptied - Iraqis, people of all nationalities, mobbed him, hugged him, shook his hand, thanked him for his stand. Some of those who were there that day were later to die. They were the very best of what the UN is meant to stand for.
The young men now fighting the occupation had their childhood snatched away by the embargo - the older ones helplessly watched it happen.

People died because of a savage and immoral embargo. Where are the WMD's?

Personally I am wary of people making claims in forums without given any supporting links

Apparently that argument is considered perfectly logical and moral in the ME. I know I have sure heard it enough times.

Since you know so much about the Middle East I suggest you ask the many Iraqis you know about the "claim" above.

Straw men...
classic.


.

Hans ,

it is a puzzle to me, after reading what happened to 1 million Iraqi children and American official being proud of it, after seeing so many children being born deformed because of America using depleted Uranium munitions in Iraq, how, after so many atrocities, Arab people still side with America & Brits & French and their CIA cronies (Qatar, Saudi, Emirate etc etc) to attack one of their owns ASSAD .. how come Saddam is a hero for you guys and not Assad fighting west ? ?

argument could be made, you guys deserve what's happening to you

Even you, Hans, instead of siding with Iran who is fighting the new age Resource-Colonialism, you side with Neo-Ottoman and Western colonialists

You say Arab mass not not with Iran, or with Lebanese Shia .. real mind boggling .. consider this, the only Arab country & force who beat Israel were the Lebanese Shia, who brought HONOR to Arabs, when at the same time "Arab League" was belittling them

Who are these Arab League sh*itheads or that CIA crony Qatari calling himself Amir to side with Arab enemies against the new Arab "Saladin" fighting the new crusaders, Assad

Shame on you Arabs mass, shame



.

[Typhoon]

TruthOut | Iraq, Afghanistan Wars Will Cost US $4-6 Trillion Dollars

While Washington has already spent close to two trillion dollars in direct costs related to its military campaigns in the two countries, that total “represents only a fraction of the total war costs”

The single largest accrued liability of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is the cost of providing medical care and disability benefits to war veterans.

____

Claims regarding morality as justification for the 2nd Iraq war are absurd.
The US eagerly to support Hussein in his war against Iran even though it was known that he has used poison gas.

Using 9/11 and the never-found WMDs as justification is the equivalent the US invading Argentina in response to the events that lead to it's entry into WWII.

[Heracleum Persicum]

TruthOut | Iraq, Afghanistan Wars Will Cost US $4-6 Trillion Dollars

While Washington has already spent close to two trillion dollars in direct costs related to its military campaigns in the two countries, that total “represents only a fraction of the total war costs”

The single largest accrued liability of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is the cost of providing medical care and disability benefits to war veterans.

____

Claims regarding morality as justification for the 2nd Iraq war are absurd.
The US eagerly to support Hussein in his war against Iran even though it was known that he has used poison gas.

Using 9/11 and the never-found WMDs as justification is the equivalent the US invading Argentina in response to the events that lead to it's entry into WWII.

.

Bravo, colonel, Bravo





.

[Doc]

SNIPPED MANY STRAW MEN

Saddam's regime for sure tortured people deemed to be a threat or agents and in cases innocent. No argument there. Torturing children is bullshit. That is reserved for the regions only democracy. During the 90's when poverty was rampant, a few Madame’s popped up that were selling Iraqi girls to the liberal sheikhs in Kuwait. Saddam's regime got a hold of them, had them decapitated and placed them in black trash bags in front of their homes as a lesson to those who would dare dishonor or cheapen Iraq's women. What you think of the tactic is open for discussion but it was effective.

Was bullshit because you think it was wrong or was bullshit because Saddam was such a good guy that would never do that?

"Daddy please please please make them stop burning me Pleaaasee daddy PLEEEEASE !!!

So what would you do if someone kid(s) were being tortured in a room you were standing in? Would you do something to stop it or would you hold up your hands and say "Sorry my hands are clean and I wouldn't want to get the dirty but attacking those torturing you" "After all if I hurt them, they have children as well, and those children might suffer so there is nothing I can do"

[Doc]

TruthOut | Iraq, Afghanistan Wars Will Cost US $4-6 Trillion Dollars

While Washington has already spent close to two trillion dollars in direct costs related to its military campaigns in the two countries, that total “represents only a fraction of the total war costs”

The single largest accrued liability of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is the cost of providing medical care and disability benefits to war veterans.

____

Claims regarding morality as justification for the 2nd Iraq war are absurd.
The US eagerly to support Hussein in his war against Iran even though it was known that he has used poison gas.

Using 9/11 and the never-found WMDs as justification is the equivalent the US invading Argentina in response to the events that lead to it's entry into WWII.

The WMD were never my justification. Though there was a working model found he did not have enough u238 to fuel it. He simply invaded Kuwait about 18 months to soon....

Iran's leadership sent boys in to clear mine fields. But sure the real politics sucked.