Question about a book . .

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Marcus
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Question about a book . .

Post by Marcus »

Anyone heard of or familiar with Thomas Lyell's The Ins and Outs of Mesopotamia?

If so . . any good?

The book is recommended to my by a person who claims the author gives an:
". . in-depth review of the religion, the holidays, practices and beliefs. Also, and most importantly, he describes why the religion kept the people in stasis for 1000 years. Why they CANNOT reform, why they cannot do anything to move forward or advance themselves. It is a MUST read for anyone who wished to understand WHY. And WHY they hate us even if they had been left alone had we found oil apenty anywhere but there."
Supposedly the book was written in the early 1920s by a ". . British magistrate who lived in Mesopotamia for over 20 years."

I've Googled the book but cannot find anything that summarizes or otherwise comments on its contents.

Hans? Ibs? ALI? Anyone?
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Ibrahim
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Re: Question about a book . .

Post by Ibrahim »

I'm not familiar with it, but it sounds like its firmly within the colonial genre, especially based on that recommendation you quoted. The memoir of the colonial officer/administrator about the backwardness of the natives is a type of work you will see time and again from the early 19th century to about the 1960's. This genre has some historical utility, as they may contain many useful observations about daily life, customs, and whatnot, but are heavily biased by their colonial agenda, and in almost all cases are written by people who were not specialists in any relevant academic field, and moreover who were actively engaged in colonization and eager to justify their task. You can read all the same arguments about the Irish during the potato famine as you can about Arabs or Kenyans or Burmese. Only the local names change.



A similarly anti-Arab racist colonial work I'm familiar with is The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones. I've read that it made the rounds of the Bush II White House, though it is heavily criticized by scholars.
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Marcus
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Re: Question about a book . .

Post by Marcus »

Thanks, Ibs, I have no doubt the book, like any book of that type, has its bias . . just wondered what it was, and I suspect you're probably right.

Anyone else . . ?
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
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noddy
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Re: Question about a book . .

Post by noddy »

sounds like talking to a modern westerner about changing the status quo to me - something todo with the hubris and fear of change mindset of a civilisation which thinks its achieved the pinnacle.

the complete opposite of the new-world, anythings possible mindset which westerners only believe as hollow rhetoric now.
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Occasionalism Occasions Big Problems.

Post by monster_gardener »

Marcus wrote:Thanks, Ibs, I have no doubt the book, like any book of that type, has its bias . . just wondered what it was, and I suspect you're probably right.

Anyone else . . ?
Thank You Very MUCH for your post, Marcus.

FWIW this reminds me of what I have read about the malign influence of Ghazali and the Philosophy of Occasionalism wherein Allah does every act in the universe down to making cotton catch fire when touched with a match and making his sock puppet ;) Monster Gardener dislike Islam and Occasionalism. :lol: :twisted: :? :roll: :lol:

If all is Fate as decreed by Allah, there is no point trying to figure out what rules G_d made to run the Universe and how to use them to better mankind like Newton or Michael Faraday did because Allah can be even more capricious than Odin. Odin at least has the excuse that he is trying to delay the end of the world as long as possible while Allah does atrocities just because he is COMPLETELY Sovereign and feels like doing it. He does NOT have to obey any laws he makes.

Even worse, if every thing you do is Allah's will, then any desire you feel is a desire Allah wants you to feel and any atrocity that you do: robberies, rapes, violence and murder is something Allah wanted you his puppet to do. Any atrocity can be justified though watch out, Allah's next act is likely to be to punish you for what he made you do.

IIRC what I read pretty well blamed Ghazali and Occasionalism for shutting down Science in Islam......

Which actually IMVHO turned out to be a VERY Good thing for the non-Muslim world.........



This also reminds me of a quote of Winston Churchill about Islam.........
"A quote from an 1899 book by Winston Churchill, "The River War", in which he describes Muslims he apparently observed during Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan" "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient" Rome.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_Wins ... e_on_Islam

Note: Corrected "punished" to "punish"
Last edited by monster_gardener on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marcus
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Predestination and fatalism . . .

Post by Marcus »

monster_gardener wrote:. . If all is Fate as decreed by Allah, there is no point trying to figure out what rules G_d made to run the Universe and how to use them to better mankind like Newton or Michael Faraday did because Allah can be even more capricious than Odin. Odin at least has the excuse that he is trying to delay the end of the world as long as possible while Allah does atrocities just because he is COMPLETELY Sovereign and feels like doing it. He does NOT have to obey any laws he makes.

Even worse, if every thing you do is Allah's will, then any desire you feel is a desire Allah wants you to feel and any atrocity that you do: robberies, rapes, violence and murder is something Allah wanted you his puppet to do. Any atrocity can be justified though watch out, Allah's next act is likely to be to punished you for what he made you do. . .

This also reminds me of a quote of Winston Churchill about Islam.........

"A quote from an 1899 book by Winston Churchill, "The River War", in which he describes Muslims he apparently observed during Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan" "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient" Rome.


That said, mg, Christianity too professes predestination:
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

—Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646
What's the difference?
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Predestination & fatalism as Understood by Cat & Dog Persons

Post by monster_gardener »

Marcus wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:. . If all is Fate as decreed by Allah, there is no point trying to figure out what rules G_d made to run the Universe and how to use them to better mankind like Newton or Michael Faraday did because Allah can be even more capricious than Odin. Odin at least has the excuse that he is trying to delay the end of the world as long as possible while Allah does atrocities just because he is COMPLETELY Sovereign and feels like doing it. He does NOT have to obey any laws he makes.

Even worse, if every thing you do is Allah's will, then any desire you feel is a desire Allah wants you to feel and any atrocity that you do: robberies, rapes, violence and murder is something Allah wanted you his puppet to do. Any atrocity can be justified though watch out, Allah's next act is likely to be to punished you for what he made you do. . .

This also reminds me of a quote of Winston Churchill about Islam.........

"A quote from an 1899 book by Winston Churchill, "The River War", in which he describes Muslims he apparently observed during Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan" "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient" Rome.


That said, mg, Christianity too professes predestination:
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

—Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646
What's the difference?

Predestination & Fatalism as Understood by Cat, Dog and Chaos Monkey Persons....


Thank You VERY Much for your post, Marcus.

AIUI The Judeo-Christian G_D is more an Engineer and a Gentleman ;) than a puppet master and capricious tyrant.

It's a matter of how He "does uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy."

AIUI He designed and created a universe with rules/laws such as for light and gravitation (Remembering a College Professor who was a Christian who listed the mathematical laws G_d promulgated in saying "Let there be Light!" ;) ) BUT does NOT make literally make every sparrow fall with His hands though He knows when it happens.

AIUI in Judaism and Christianity, G_d gives humans some degree of free will. Historically because of this, Christian and other scientists like Issac Newton and Michael Faraday who believed in a rational G_D and a rational universe also believed that with effort in thought and in experiment, they, being made in G_d's image as rational beings could discover some of the rules at work in G_d's current Universe and use those laws to benefit mankind and the world. Even Einstein famously said words to the effect that "G_d does not play dice with the Universe" *

Regarding Predestination, I wonder if it is like me and my experience with feral cats. I didn't try to tame the violent feral cat "Psycho Kitty"just as G_D didn't work that much with Esau which was a choice of His sovereign will.

I did adopt one of Psycho Kitty's children and he became a beloved junior member of my family for the rest of his life enjoying human benefits that a feral cat would not have.

Because of my efforts he became a cat who was mostly equal to a human person even though he couldn't open cans and doors.......directly that is** ;). However, he was involved in this too because in contrast to his mother, he had a receptive personality. If he had been a violent rejector like his mother, I probably would not have bothered trying.

IIRC, C.S. Lewis mentions something like this in one of his books, where he says that G_d/Christ is a "gent", that is a gentleman. He knocks at the door but does not break it down.

So perhaps, predestination is negative: It involves not being chosen and worked with by G_d more than being actively rejected.

And I may be wrong about this.

I have heard other explanations such as Predestination involves G_d's foreknowledge: One side of the gate says "Whosoever will may enter" but the other side says "G_d's Elect.

However, I suspect that despite the small but greater amount of intelligence and free will that G_d has given me, I and other humans understand G_d maybe about as much as my cats & dogs understand all about me.

Some of the things I do probably seem pretty strange to them and/or they misunderstand: for example staring at a light emitting box and moving my strange soft paws over what seems to be a strange scratching pad ;) as I type this post.

What do you think?

You may be closer as much of the truth as we humans can understand than I am.....

*Neils Bohr is said to have replied "Quit telling G_d what to do!" ;)

**Though the prayers of he and his fellow cat persons could be VERY effective ;)
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