HaaJ

User avatar
Heracleum Persicum
Posts: 11567
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm

HaaJ

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

CW3GFtBIB4g




This thing has it's own history, and not what you think



.
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

I think the Hajj is a wonderful tradition, but I don't know why there is a "season". It seems a continuous Hajj would be more sacred than limiting it to a certain set of days which were never prescribed by Muhammad.

It reminds me of backwoods Christians who only baptize on Easter Sunday. An unfortunate confusion of folklore with theology.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Mr. Perfect »

What's the box in the middle.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27242
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: HaaJ

Post by Typhoon »

Mr. Perfect wrote:What's the box in the middle.
Kaaba
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Ibrahim »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I think the Hajj is a wonderful tradition, but I don't know why there is a "season". It seems a continuous Hajj would be more sacred than limiting it to a certain set of days which were never prescribed by Muhammad.

It reminds me of backwoods Christians who only baptize on Easter Sunday. An unfortunate confusion of folklore with theology.
The seasonal restriction is essentially just a tradition, but much of the process is. The biggest problem is that the short season creates logistical and safety issues like any large crowd event, though to their credit Saudi modernization of of the process has made it safer.

Where I live the Christmas season is a big garish mess of Anglo-Germanic fairy folklore, French Catholic ostentation, and more blonde, blue-eyed saints, shepherds, wise men, and baby Jesuses (Jesi?) than you can shake a stick at. And its great.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Ibrahim »

Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
User avatar
Hans Bulvai
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:30 pm
Location: Underneath everything

Re: HaaJ

Post by Hans Bulvai »


Malcolm X, an American civil rights activist, describes the sociological atmosphere he experienced at Hajj as follows:


There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and the non-white. America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought patterns previously held
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Hans Bulvai wrote:

Malcolm X, an American civil rights activist, describes the sociological atmosphere he experienced at Hajj as follows:


There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and the non-white. America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought patterns previously held
Precisely the reason Malcom X is one of my most admired persons. After this epiphany, he rejected his previously racist attitude, left his powerful and lucrative position as Elijah Muhammad's protege in the phony NOI and embraced Sunni Islam until he was martyred for it.

As a Christian, I believe Jesus was God and God is holy - not religious. The actions of Malcom X after his hajj were truly Christ-like and a testament to faith and integrity.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
User avatar
Hans Bulvai
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:30 pm
Location: Underneath everything

Re: HaaJ

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:

Malcolm X, an American civil rights activist, describes the sociological atmosphere he experienced at Hajj as follows:


There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and the non-white. America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought patterns previously held
Precisely the reason Malcom X is one of my most admired persons. After this epiphany, he rejected his previously racist attitude, left his powerful and lucrative position as Elijah Muhammad's protege in the phony NOI and embraced Sunni Islam until he was martyred for it.

As a Christian, I believe Jesus was God and God is holy - not religious. The actions of Malcom X after his hajj were truly Christ-like and a testament to faith and integrity.
Agree.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: HaaJ

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Possible Black Stony Meteorite Q&A.........

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Endovelico.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
Good question.

My opinion is that it is an idol that doesn't look like an idol*....

Lets the idolatry continue slightly undercover ;) ........ Though not that much undercover.....

Image

Muslim pilgrims jostle for a chance to kiss the Black Stone; if they are unable to kiss the stone because of the crowds, they can point towards the stone on each circuit with their right hand. In each complete circuit a person says "In the name of God, God is Great, God is Great, God is Great and praise be to God". Once people have kissed the stone a guard stands ready to push them away.


FWIW an Islamic answer I found by inquiring ;) at the Google Oracle: ;) :lol:
Muhammad... claimed that the stone was sent down by Allah Almighty to Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael..., to give the precise location of where the Kaaba was to be built by them.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/black_stone.htm

Here is the Wiki on it..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

What I find the most interesting is the idea that the Black Stone may be a meteorite that was involved in the destruction of an Arabian city.....

Easy to imagine ancient Depraved Sinful Chaos Monkey humans worshiping something that fell out of the sky with a BOOM! and enough power/Mojo ;) to destroy a city........
The nature of the Black Stone has been much debated. It has been described variously as basalt stone, an agate, a piece of natural glass or — most popularly — a stony meteorite. Paul Partsch, the curator of the Austro-Hungarian imperial collection of minerals, published the first comprehensive history of the Black Stone in 1857 in which he favoured a meteoritic origin for the Stone. Robert Dietz and John McHone proposed in 1974 that the Black Stone was actually an agate, judging from its physical attributes and a report by an Arab geologist that the Stone contained clearly discernible diffusion banding characteristic of agates.[2]

A significant clue to its nature is provided by an account of the Stone's recovery in 951 AD after it had been stolen 21 years earlier; according to a chronicler, the Stone was identified by its ability to float in water. If this account is accurate, it would rule out the Black Stone being an agate, basalt lava or stony meteorite, though it would be compatible with it being glass or pumice.[5]

Elsebeth Thomsen of the University of Copenhagen proposed a different hypothesis in 1980. She suggested that the Black Stone may be a glass fragment or impactite from the impact of a fragmented meteorite that fell some 6,000 years ago at Wabar,[28] a site in the Rub' al Khali desert 1,100 km east of Mecca. The craters at Wabar are notable for the presence of blocks of silica glass, fused by the heat of the impact and impregnated with beads of a nickel-iron alloy from the meteorite (most of which was destroyed in the impact). Some of the glass blocks are made of shiny black glass, with a white or yellow interior and gas-filled hollows, which allow them to float on water.[5]

Although scientists did not become aware of the Wabar craters until 1932, they were located near a caravan route from Oman and were very likely known to the inhabitants of the desert. The wider area was certainly well-known; in ancient Arabic poetry, Wabar or Ubar (also known as "Iram of the Pillars") was the site of a fabulous city that was destroyed by fire from the heavens because of the wickedness of its king. If the estimated age of the crater is accurate, it would have been well within the period of human habitation in Arabia and the impact itself may have been witnessed.
[5]
Something similar happened/almost happened in Russia recently..........

The Chelyabinsk meteor was a Near-Earth asteroid that entered Earth's atmosphere over Russia on 15 February 2013 at about 09:20 YEKT (03:20 UTC) with an estimated speed of 18.6 km/s (over 41,000 mph or 66 960 km/h, almost 60 times the speed of sound at that[which?] altitude). It quickly became a brilliant superbolide meteor over the southern Ural region. The dazzling light of the meteor was brighter than the sun, and bright enough to cast moving shadows during the morning in Chelyabinsk. It was observed over a wide area of the region and in neighbouring republics. Eyewitnesses also felt intense heat from the fireball.

Due to its enormous velocity and shallow atmospheric entry angle, the object exploded in an air burst over Chelyabinsk Oblast, at a height of about 23.3 km (14.5 miles, 76,000 feet). The explosion generated a bright flash, producing many small fragmentary meteorites and a powerful shock wave. The atmosphere absorbed most of the object's energy, with a total kinetic energy before atmospheric impact equivalent to approximately 440 kilotons of TNT (about 1.8 PJ), 20–30 times more energy than was released from the atomic bomb detonated at Hiroshima, and about 10% greater than the former Soviet Union's own RDS-6s "fusion boosted" nuclear device's test detonation on August 12, 1953.

The object was undetected before its atmospheric entry and its explosion created considerable confusion among local residents. About 1,500 people were injured seriously enough to seek medical treatment. All of the injuries were due to indirect effects rather than the meteor itself, mainly from broken glass from windows that were blown in when the shock wave arrived, minutes after the superbolide's flash. Some 7,200 buildings in six cities across the region were damaged by the explosion's shock wave, and authorities scrambled to help repair the structures in sub-zero (°C) temperatures.

With an estimated initial mass of about 10,000 tonnes (11,000 short tons, heavier than the Eiffel Tower), and measuring between 17 and 20 metres in size, it is the largest known natural object to have entered Earth's atmosphere since the 1908 Tunguska event that destroyed a wide, remote, forested area of Siberia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_meteor

IMO it is very much past time to have meteor deflection & diversion* programs in place......

If we don't want to go the way of the dinosaurs........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater

We have had multiple warnings........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_crater

Image

*An icy meteor could be diverted to crash on the Moon allowing both study of crater formation AND providing badly needed water and other volatiles for Moon colonies.

**an obvious anthropomorphic idol
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27242
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: HaaJ

Post by Typhoon »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
An idol would be a human [or more generally animal] representation of a deity.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Mecca was a pilgrimige site before Muhammad. Part of the tradition (in my understanding) is that the black stone is a meteorite and an artifact of a divine connection.

Beats the crowds flocking around the Hope diamond at the Smithsonian IMHO.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
Its a building, not a stone. A room with no idols within is a symbolic statement for transcendent monotheism as opposed polytheism. It also commemorates the time/place where the first Muslims abandoned one paradigm for the other.
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
Its a building, not a stone. A room with no idols within is a symbolic statement for transcendent monotheism as opposed polytheism. It also commemorates the time/place where the first Muslims abandoned one paradigm for the other.
The tradition is that the Kaaba is the original settlement made by Adam. The black stone was a sign telling him where to put the living room.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Ibrahim »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
Its a building, not a stone. A room with no idols within is a symbolic statement for transcendent monotheism as opposed polytheism. It also commemorates the time/place where the first Muslims abandoned one paradigm for the other.
The tradition is that the Kaaba is the original settlement made by Adam. The black stone was a sign telling him where to put the living room.
I thought it was placed there by the "moon god" that Muslims "really" follow. 8-)


Though the Adam story is widely accepted, the present structure is a much more recent construction and has been refurbished a number of times. Its dubious that the stone is original, but either way its significance is only to mare the location. The location is important, not the building itself, nor any marker.
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Romancing the Black Stone from Out of Space........

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Kaaba
Muhammad smashing all of the idols once stored within was always one of my favorite stories.
Why was the Black Stone left?...
Its a building, not a stone. A room with no idols within is a symbolic statement for transcendent monotheism as opposed polytheism. It also commemorates the time/place where the first Muslims abandoned one paradigm for the other.
The tradition is that the Kaaba is the original settlement made by Adam. The black stone was a sign telling him where to put the living room.
I thought it was placed there by the "moon god" that Muslims "really" follow. 8-)


Though the Adam story is widely accepted, the present structure is a much more recent construction and has been refurbished a number of times. Its dubious that the stone is original, but either way its significance is only to mare the location. The location is important, not the building itself, nor any marker.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.
I thought it was placed there by the "moon god" that Muslims "really" follow. 8-)
If the Black Stone is a meteorite, there is a slight possibility (~1 in 1000 or less) that the Moon ;) in cooperation with the gravity of Mother Earth ;) placed the Black Stone wherever it landed* before it was stuck in the wall of the Kaaba & worshiped there........
Most lunar meteorites are launched from the Moon by impacts making lunar craters of a few kilometers in diameter or less.[3] No source crater of lunar meteorites has been positively identified, although there is speculation that the highly anomalous lunar meteorite Sayh al Uhaymir 169 derives from the Lalande impact crater on the lunar nearside.[4][5]

Cosmic ray exposure history established with noble gas measurements have shown that all lunar meteorites were ejected from the Moon in the past 20 million years. Most left the Moon in the past 100,000 years. After leaving the Moon, most lunar meteoroids go into orbit around Earth and eventually succumb to Earth's gravity. Some meteoroids ejected from the Moon get launched into orbits around the sun. These meteoroids remain in space longer but eventually intersect the Earth's orbit and land.[6] ...........

Today, about one in every thousand newly discovered meteorites is a lunar meteorite, whereas the vast majority of meteorites are from the asteroid belt. In the early 19th century most scientists believed that all meteorites were from the Moon.
If the Black Stone is a meteorite, especially from the Moon, it could be quite valuable.........
Lunar meteorites collected in Africa and Oman (quite near Mecca) are, for all practical purposes, the only source of moon rocks available for private ownership...... Most of the moonrocks collected by the Luna 16 probe are also unavailable for private ownership, although three tiny samples were sold at auction for $442,500 in 1993.[
The Black Stone has been stolen before...
In January 930 it was stolen by the Qarmatians, who carried the Black Stone away to their base in Hajar (modern Bahrain). According to Ottoman historian Qutb al-Din, writing in 1857, Qarmatian leader Abu Tahir al-Qarmati set the Black Stone up in his own mosque, the Masjid al-Dirar, with the intention of redirecting the Hajj away from Mecca. However, this failed, and pilgrims continued to venerate the spot where the Black Stone had been.[13]

According to historian Al-Juwayni, the Stone was returned twenty-three years later, in 952. The Qarmatians held the Black Stone for ransom, and forced the Abbasids to pay a huge sum for its return. It was wrapped in a sack and thrown into the Friday Mosque of Kufa, accompanied by a note saying "By command we took it, and by command we have brought it back." Its abduction and removal caused further damage, breaking the stone into seven pieces.

Its abductor, Abu Tahir, is said to have met a terrible fate; according to Qutb al-Din, "the filthy Abu Tahir was afflicted with a gangrenous sore, his flesh was eaten away by worms, and he died a most terrible death."[13]
But I would say that even Indiana Jones ;) would be very rash to try today.........

For anyone interested, here is what it looks like per the Wiki Oracle ;)

Image


Note: This meteorite history reminds me a little of the story "The Colour Out of Space" :twisted: where a meteorite has a malign ;) influence on those around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colour_Out_of_Space


*possibly destroying an ancient Arabian city..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ston ... ic_origins
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Alexis
Posts: 1305
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: HaaJ

Post by Alexis »

Ibrahim wrote:A room with no idols within is a symbolic statement for transcendent monotheism as opposed polytheism. It also commemorates the time/place where the first Muslims abandoned one paradigm for the other.
Yes, this strongly reminds the symbolism of the Holy Place within the Temple of Jerusalem.

It is said than when the Roman general Pompeius, having conquered Jerusalem in 63 BC, entered the Temple and the Holy Place with some of his men -while only the High Priest was permitted to enter it- he was very surprised to discover that it was empty. Many legends were circulating as to what exactly the Jews were adoring within their temple, what form and appearance had their god -the emptiness was astonishing to people with a Pagan outlook. Emptiness is a very strong sign which I think can resonate with anybody.

David Goldman would probably say the parallel between Kaaba and the Holy Place is sign that Islam is a faux-neoJudaism :)
Abandoning polemics for a higher -and truer- point of view, one can say that monotheistic religions often get to similar places through different ways.

Christianity doesn't have a stone-and-mortar parallel to the Holy Place in the Jerusalem Temple nor to the Kaaba. Jesus said that the Temple would be destroyed, but three days later it would be rebuilt, one of the predictions of his Resurrection. As a consequence, Christian mysticism identifies the body of Christ as the Temple, and the Church as community of believers as body of Christ and Temple. Adoration of the bread consecrated during mass as Body of Christ also in a way is adoration to the Temple of God. Saint Paul also underlined that the body of any believer is Temple inasmuch as God the Holy Spirit inhabits it.

Yet consecrated bread has no specific taste, no remarkable feature of any kind. Just like it is certainly not the senses that can attest that God really is with any person. Nor that this brother or sister in need is truly the face of Jesus to me, the truest way one can relate to the One God in this life. The sign of Emptiness, again.

With limited knowledge of Eastern religions that I have, I incline to wonder whether the sign of Emptiness, which I understand is very important for Buddhism, could also be a way that this non-Abrahamic religion joins -or at least closely passes by - monotheistic religions.
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

I believe the hadith relate that the black stone, Kaaba and Mecca were a pilgrimage site long before Muhammad. Muhammad made the Kaaba exclusively Islamic, and also rejected the many other pilgrimage sites honored by the Qurash.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Ibrahim »

Alexis wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:A room with no idols within is a symbolic statement for transcendent monotheism as opposed polytheism. It also commemorates the time/place where the first Muslims abandoned one paradigm for the other.
Yes, this strongly reminds the symbolism of the Holy Place within the Temple of Jerusalem.
Agreed, I think the concept is similar.



David Goldman would probably say the parallel between Kaaba and the Holy Place is sign that Islam is a faux-neoJudaism :)
Probably. I know a few people who would say Judaism is a corrupted version of Islam, so its a tie. ;)



Christianity doesn't have a stone-and-mortar parallel to the Holy Place in the Jerusalem Temple nor to the Kaaba. Jesus said that the Temple would be destroyed, but three days later it would be rebuilt, one of the predictions of his Resurrection. As a consequence, Christian mysticism identifies the body of Christ as the Temple, and the Church as community of believers as body of Christ and Temple. Adoration of the bread consecrated during mass as Body of Christ also in a way is adoration to the Temple of God. Saint Paul also underlined that the body of any believer is Temple inasmuch as God the Holy Spirit inhabits it.
Perhaps because the entire point of Christianity is that the Divine became physical and mortal? Emptiness is not a suitable analogy for such a feat.


With limited knowledge of Eastern religions that I have, I incline to wonder whether the sign of Emptiness, which I understand is very important for Buddhism, could also be a way that this non-Abrahamic religion joins -or at least closely passes by - monotheistic religions.
Buddhists talk about emptiness a lot, but I'm wary of comparing religions across the major civilizations/traditions. Buddhism also cheerfully retained many of the gods and mythological beings ("idols," if one is being unkind) from Indian and Chinese culture and religion.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Ibrahim »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I believe the hadith relate that the black stone, Kaaba and Mecca were a pilgrimage site long before Muhammad.
Absolutely. Mecca as a pilgrimage site prior to Islam is almost universally accepted among Muslims.

Muhammad made the Kaaba exclusively Islamic, and also rejected the many other pilgrimage sites honored by the Qurash.
Early Muslims spent a great deal of effort sorting out what what their tradition and what was surrounding traditions. In almost every case the goal is simplicity and unity. One God, one scripture, one law, one pilgrimage site. Though now that I think about it that didn't last very long, and there are pilgrimage sites all over the Islamic world, often with "superstitions" associated with them.

But Mecca is still on another level.
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: HaaJ

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:Perhaps because the entire point of Christianity is that the Divine became physical and mortal? Emptiness is not a suitable analogy for such a feat.
Emptiness is a very apt religious concept...
User avatar
Nonc Hilaire
Posts: 6168
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:28 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Perhaps because the entire point of Christianity is that the Divine became physical and mortal? Emptiness is not a suitable analogy for such a feat.
Emptiness is a very apt religious concept...
The "stone & mortar" parallel for Christians is bread and wine. Both are divine gifts transformed into something of superior life sustaining value by human effort. It's not emptiness; it's the universality and transformative nature of humanity.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
User avatar
Alexis
Posts: 1305
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: HaaJ

Post by Alexis »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Perhaps because the entire point of Christianity is that the Divine became physical and mortal? Emptiness is not a suitable analogy for such a feat.
Emptiness is a very apt religious concept...
One of the slanders some ancient Romans directed at Christians was to call them Atheists.

Made sense: these people refused to adore natural forces as gods, mountains as gods, stones as gods, concepts as gods, nature as god.... and what have you. The most basic tenent of Judaism, then of all religions which in some way derive from Judaism is "God is not....what I can see / what I can perceive / what I can conceptualize"

I sometimes wonder if modern Atheists could be described as extremist Christians* :) ... they go the full way towards the arguably extreme "God is not"

Do they have the moral courage to continue while others have floundered and stopped in the way?

Or should they stop to listen to the signs left by the one who cannot be known?
Looking up 1 Kings 19:10-13
10 He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”
11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake.
12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper.
13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.


* or Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Bahais, Mormons... any religion centered around a transcendant and one God
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: HaaJ

Post by Ibrahim »

Alexis wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Perhaps because the entire point of Christianity is that the Divine became physical and mortal? Emptiness is not a suitable analogy for such a feat.
Emptiness is a very apt religious concept...
One of the slanders some ancient Romans directed at Christians was to call them Atheists.

Made sense: these people refused to adore natural forces as gods, mountains as gods, stones as gods, concepts as gods, nature as god.... and what have you. The most basic tenent of Judaism, then of all religions which in some way derive from Judaism is "God is not....what I can see / what I can perceive / what I can conceptualize"

I sometimes wonder if modern Atheists could be described as extremist Christians* :) ... they go the full way towards the arguably extreme "God is not"

There are atheists who just aren't interested in the subject at all, but vocal atheists, and the downright evangelical New Atheists, are certainly acting out some of the uglier behaviors traditionally associated with religion. They even have their saints and pilgrimage sites. What's Mecca or Rome next to a candlelight vigil and a Apple Store?
Post Reply