The Third Jihad . .

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Doc
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:.

YET:

Mecca or Makkah (Arabic: مكة المكرمة Makkah al-Mukarramah), located in western Saudi Arabia, is the holiest city in Islam. It is strictly forbidden for Non-Muslims to enter the city and this is strongly enforced.

.


Well,

DOC

who forbids Christians or Jews entering Makkeh or any mosque ? ?
We are not talking about any Mosque We are talking about the wailing wall the last remains of the Temple of Soloman Which has two mosque built on top. If the Jews took the same rules as Muslims there would be no mosques on top or anyone but Jews in Jerusalem
Not Islam, neither Ghoran

The Ibn Saud mafia, follower of that heretic Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

In Arabia, there were 100s of empty head theologians like Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab .. Middle East full of those "philosopher and theologian" nuts

Only when American shook hand with Ibn Saud, a fringe sect of Islam, Wahhabi were elevated to present positions with devastating consequences

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab a very VIVID sample for you guys to understand that IRANIAN philosophers were the ones who gave the philosophical DEPT to Islam .. you see in Wahhabism how primitive that original might have been

In that sense, responsibility of further advance, reformation of Islam, again, falls on Iranian thinkers

Looks to me, America now came to this conclusion

and

Iran will take care of Jews too, they deserve a home if they wish so .. meaning, Mosche should relaaaax (wouldn't be astonished if BiBi first to drop in Tehran B4 Kerry surprises us visiting the family of his son in law in Tehran for an Iranian feast :lol: )

.
Without a doubt Jews and Iranians have a long mutually beneficial history.
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Ibrahim
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Doc wrote: there would be no mosques on top or anyone but Jews in Jerusalem
The Likudniks are working on exactly that.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Marcus wrote:The Roman Catholic Church, after 1054 and the Papal Revolution, was the sole Christian institution in the West only. The Orthodox Church was nearly equally so in the East.
Because rival institutions were suppressed (Jews) or exterminated (Cathars).

Second, any impetus for education, science, and-and-and came not from Islam but from Islam's assimilation of Persia.
Aside from being easily refuted by the number of Arab scholars and mathematicians in history, this claim is also illogical. Consider that Persia did not produce any of these marvels of discovery or innovation during the centuries-long Parthian or Sassanid periods, then suddenly produced all of this pivotal scientific and mathematical output once they became part of the Islamic world. Explain that.



Islam knows nothing of such matters, nothing beyond a bloody scimitar.
...say the man living on a continent that was invaded and largely depopulated by Christians, in a country that murders children with flying robots.



The same may be said of Islam's assimilation of Andalusia in that the greater influence flowed from West to East, not from East to West. Any so-called "golden age" of Islam is more properly understood as Persian and Christian as those social orders softened Islam's hard edges and illuminated its dark alleyways.
Find a serious historian or scholar who actually believes this. You're obviously repeating garbage you heard on websites. Muslims were the most advanced civilization in the world, with no competition from Christian Europe, and only nearly equaled in that era by China. Yet even though this was a millennium ago some people are so insecure about it they try to spread obviously false revisionist history motived entirely by racial and religious prejudice. Its laughable.


Third, Islam is parasitic, parasitic initially in its bastardization of Old Testament Judaism and Mosaic Law and secondarily of primitive Christianity.
Islam is the true and correct version of those partially corrupted texts/religions. Rather than being parasitic, Islam has given you basic mathematics without which you wouldn't have computers to type falsehoods on. It also protected Jews and Orthodox Christians from the violent and intolerant expansionism of medieval Christians insofar as it was able.

Islam offers nothing but a sort of fatalistic status quo disturbed only by the sword.
The fluidity of Islamic history and groundbreaking contributions of Islamic mathematics and science are an obvious repudiation to the false claim of both fatalism and status quo. As for "disturbance by the sword" a fine example of such was the pointless and destructive invasion by Western Christian barbarians that caused the deaths of so many innocent Muslims, Jews, and Orthodox Christians.

Many peoples and cultures, beginning with the Greeks, made scientific discoveries, but it was only in the Christian West that science as science became a sort of materialistic world-view, the world-view that ushered in the Enlightenment.
A rather sad supremacist fantasy.


Finally, however one wishes to define it, Islam is incompatible with contemporary, secular culture and must be reformed/readapted/reinterpreted/whatever.
Obvious prejudiced falsehood. The millions of Muslims living in modern secular societies being proof of such. Moreover, Marcus was talking earlier about Islams inability to reform, then described reforms that are actually redundant to Islam. He doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, but he knows what he hates.


The only thing that is currently retarding that cataclysm has been the Turkish and Western domination of Persia.
What does this sentence mean? Neither Turkey or "the West" has dominated Persia recently. Alexander is the last solid example.

As Iran is allowed to enter the world stage as an independent player in its own right, only then will Iran/Persia provide the context for the reformation of Islam.
Iran has been a player in its own right since 1979, and mostly what happened as a result is that Israel and the US threaten to attack them all the time. As for an Islamic reformation, I just explained to you why that is redundant. Why did you ignore that explanation? Why do you base your claims on, exactly? As it stands, you don't appear to know what you are talking about. Without anything to support your claims, and so many of them obviously being false, its hard to see what you are doing except repeating second-hand propaganda.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Ask yourselves why Marcus can't answer these questions.

Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Now they have to temerity to squall like a stuck hog about collateral damage when the West reacts in self-defense?
Innocent people in Pakistan, Yemen, and elsewhere are complaining about the US military murdering their family members for no reason. If somebody blew your granddaughter to smithereens with a Hellfire missile because they didn't like "Christians" how do you think you'd respond? Would you "squall like a stuck hog?"

Why would you try to minimize and defend the murder of civilians based on their religious affiliation?
Seems monstrously immoral, as well as un-Christian and un-Islamic.



Watch the film . . by a Muslim about radical Islam . . decide for yourself.
Why does the religion of the filmmaker matter? If I link to pro-Islam films or books by Muslims will you then change your mind and believe something else?
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Ibrahim wrote:.
Marcus wrote:.

Second, any impetus for education, science, and-and-and came not from Islam but from Islam's assimilation of Persia.

.
Aside from being easily refuted by the number of Arab scholars and mathematicians in history, this claim is also illogical. Consider that Persia did not produce any of these marvels of discovery or innovation during the centuries-long Parthian or Sassanid periods, then suddenly produced all of this pivotal scientific and mathematical output once they became part of the Islamic world. Explain that.

Reason for this, that all Persian giants of science and literature and philosophy and and and, pretty much all of them, are from post Islam Iran and not before .. there is a known to historian very crucial reason for that, and that reason points to main strength of Islam :

In pre-Islam Iran, since begin of Persian empire (until Arab invasion) , Persia (like Rome and Greece) was a cast system civilization .. education, school, was exclusive for highest cast (the royal and the Zoroastrian echelons) .. the lower cast, the general population, (farmers, business, traders, etc) had no right to eduction .. is said, a wealthy businessman asks King Darius he would give half of his wealth if his son allowed to attend school (education), Darius responds this not possible because the businessman not from high cast .. that very much limited the talent, Pomegranates were number one in administration of empire, but nobody in science philosophy and literature

Islam's main tenet is putting away with "CAST", proclaiming everybody same, and, Islam promoted education and science and and .. result was, post Islam, EXPLOSION of talent leading to Golden age of Islam .. add to this that Arabic became universal language of science like now English is language of science .. a scholar writing in Samarkand could be understood and read in Granada Andaluse

Ibrahim wrote:.
Marcus wrote:.

The same may be said of Islam's assimilation of Andalusia in that the greater influence flowed from West to East, not from East to West. Any so-called "golden age" of Islam is more properly understood as Persian and Christian as those social orders softened Islam's hard edges and illuminated its dark alleyways.

.
Muslims were the most advanced civilization in the world, with no competition from Christian Europe, and only nearly equaled in that era by China. Yet even though this was a millennium ago some people are so insecure about it they try to spread obviously false revisionist history motived entirely by racial and religious prejudice. Its laughable.


In Golden age of Andalusia, everything flow from SOUTH (Muslim Andalusia) to North Christians .. even now, draw a line "Barcelona-Saragossa-Madrid-Lisboa", everything south of that line is culture, lively and rich, everything north not much to report

AND

No such things as Islamic this or that .. everything now called Islamic, is Persian, Greece or Indian .. am not aware of anything that came out of Arabia (Syria or Egypt no part of Arabia)


Marcus wrote:.

As Iran is allowed to enter the world stage as an independent player in its own right, only then will Iran/Persia provide the context for the reformation of Islam.

.

Marcus has a valid case here .. he's right

Ottomans betrayed Islam as the Sultans, Khalifs, were having fun in Harem with the Ukrainian and Georgian sweethearts when at the same time Europe and Christianity was going through enlightenment, Aufklärung and reformation .. That Wahhabi rubbish is icing on the cake .. and Iran, again, must clean the barn

.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Typhoon wrote:Yawn.
CS if 2 or 3 of the largest buildings in Japan were brought down by AQ what would the response be.
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Re: Islam uber alles . . .

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Typhoon wrote:
. . . a rough calculation suggests that in the last five years, your chances of being killed by a terrorist are about one in 20 million. This compares annual risk of dying in a car accident of 1 in 19,000; drowning in a bathtub at 1 in 800,000; dying in a building fire at 1 in 99,000; or being struck by lightning at 1 in 5,500,000. In other words, in the last five years you were four times more likely to be struck by lightning than killed by a terrorist.
That Thor fellow looks like the worst terrorist of all!

Image

BTW, I can't understand why Hollywood is allowed to produce a movie glorifying that terrorist?

Image
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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What were the odds of a school shooting.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:Ottomans betrayed Islam as the Sultans, Khalifs, were having fun in Harem with the Ukrainian and Georgian sweethearts when at the same time Europe and Christianity was going through enlightenment, Aufklärung and reformation .. That Wahhabi rubbish is icing on the cake .. and Iran, again, must clean the barn
I do not believe in claim that Iran would be the sole nor main source of future progress within Muslim countries, nor in claim that Turkey would hold sole nor main responsibility for decline of Muslim civilization between Middle Age and 20th century.

That being said, reversal of that decline is certainly called for.

It is remarkable that:
- while in the 15th century there were four main areas of advanced civilization, "Chinese" / "Indian" / Muslim Middle-East / Christian West (China the most advanced of all),
- while Christian West progressed tremendously between 16th and 20th century and forced other civilizations to awake from their sleep (not always pleasantly),
- while "Chinese" civilizational area has clearly and vividly awakened (Japan leading the way),
- while India has clearly awakened and is making strong progress,
awakening of Muslim ME, even with an optimistic outlook, is no more than a half-full glass.

Among the four largest civilizational areas before Christian West went into progress overdrive, only Muslim ME has not yet really awakened.

Surely, Wahhabi sect is not pushing in the right direction, and them holding most significant oil reserves with all attendant influence and money is not helping. The resource curse, in overdrive.

That being said, China at the time of Taiping Rebellion (19th century) was even more messy than the Muslim ME is now, and they pulled it out later anyway. So it's certainly far too early to write off the ME as a source of human progress.

Middle-Easterners finding the right formula for progress could actually happen quite soon: human affairs are unpredictable not only on the dark side, but also on the bright side.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:. . Islam's main tenet is putting away with "CAST", proclaiming everybody same, . .

. . Arabic became universal language of . .

No such things as Islamic this or that .. everything now called Islamic, is Persian, Greece or Indian . .


It isn't so much that Islam "put away" a caste system, it is rather that Islam contains no notion of caste. Islam was initially tribal . . society was divided by tribe, not by caste. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom makes that abundantly clear.

Agreed. What united the Arab revolt against Turkey during WW I was not Islam but nationalism defined by language.

Agreed. bare-bones Islam is incapable of producing and maintaining a civilization by Quigley's definition: "a producing society with an instrument of expansion." Islam's "instrument of expansion" was nothing more than a scimitar . . all else such as civil order, production, science, architecture, etc. was assimilated into Islam, not produced by Islam. That fact remains to this day.


Alexis wrote:. . in the 15th century there were four main areas of advanced civilization, "Chinese" / "Indian" / Muslim Middle-East / Christian West (China the most advanced of all), . .


Alexis, by what definition, in terms of what categories do you consider 15th century Chinese civilization "most advanced"?
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Marcus wrote:
Alexis wrote:. . in the 15th century there were four main areas of advanced civilization, "Chinese" / "Indian" / Muslim Middle-East / Christian West (China the most advanced of all), . .


Alexis, by what definition, in terms of what categories do you consider 15th century Chinese civilization "most advanced"?
By a very shallow one, mostly based on my personal opinion :) derived from the sole fact that the ships China sent in discovery travels beginning 15th century were more advanced than those Europeans used end 15th century / beginning 16th century to discover the whole world.

The reason Chinese did not discover the world before the Europeans is basically because they were culturally too navel-gazing, not interested enough in the outside: the Chinese captain leading the 15th century expedition was charged to give presents from the Son of Heaven (Emperor) to the various inferior tribes and nations he would encounter, so as to make them grateful therefore vassals of the Empire. Chinese did not have the idea they could learn from the outside, nor loot, nor save souls. They tired rapidly from showing off munificence to lesser peoples, and came home.

Now of course the fact that the Chinese made better ships is not enough proof of general civilizational superiority. I guess having invented printing, and gunpowder, however also has to count for something: if I'm not mistaken Europeans in 15th century had not yet invented much.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Alexis wrote:. . The reason Chinese did not discover the world before the Europeans is basically because they were culturally too navel-gazing, not interested enough in the outside: . . Chinese did not have the idea they could learn from the outside, nor loot, nor save souls. . .
That, I think, is very well said and entirely congruent with Quigley's definition of a civilization as a producing society with an instrument of expansion.

By Quigley's definition then, 16th century China was not a civilization at all but rather just a society. China was indeed a producing society, but it lacked an instrument of expansion. The same might be said of Indian society of the same time.

Islamic society, on the other hand, contained—indeed was founded upon—an instrument of expansion, the scimitar. Islamic society, however, was not a producing society, it was a subsistence society . . until Islam assimilated Persia. The "producing" component of Islamic "civilization" was and remains Persian.

We are left, by Quigley's definition, with only the West qualifying as a civilization . . Chinese, Indian, & Islamic were simply societies.

Moreover, if one cares to think about it, those ancient societies, with the exception of radical Islam, have now been incorporated into Western civilization/culture. Radical Islam, while sucking off the hind-tit of Western civilization, continues to bash its head against the legal foundations of that order.

In that sense, radical Islam has a death wish.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Marcus wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:. . Islam's main tenet is putting away with "CAST", proclaiming everybody same, . .

. . Arabic became universal language of . .

No such things as Islamic this or that .. everything now called Islamic, is Persian, Greece or Indian . .


It isn't so much that Islam "put away" a caste system, it is rather that Islam contains no notion of caste. Islam was initially tribal . . society was divided by tribe, not by caste. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom makes that abundantly clear.
Lawrence's book, and experience, was confined to desert Bedouin in Arabia. To claim that their norms were also the norms of the urban elite in, say, 9th century Baghdad is ridiculous, let alone Muslims in Malaysia. So these generalization based on such small and specific example simply do not hold up.




Agreed. What united the Arab revolt against Turkey during WW I was not Islam but nationalism defined by language.
Agreed. bare-bones Islam is incapable of producing and maintaining a civilization by Quigley's definition: "a producing society with an instrument of expansion." Islam's "instrument of expansion" was nothing more than a scimitar . . all else such as civil order, production, science, architecture, etc. was assimilated into Islam, not produced by Islam. That fact remains to this day.
Clearly a falsehood. One need only compare states influenced by Islam to those that did not receive any external influence. To deny Islamic law, science, architecture, anc craftsmanship is, frankly, laughable.

As for expansion, how did Christian Europe expand around the world? How did North America come to be dominated by Christians? How did Christians end up invading China and India? Are you not aware of these incidents or are you hoping no one else was?



Alexis wrote:. . in the 15th century there were four main areas of advanced civilization, "Chinese" / "Indian" / Muslim Middle-East / Christian West (China the most advanced of all), . .
Alexis, by what definition, in terms of what categories do you consider 15th century Chinese civilization "most advanced"?
You are demanding of Alexis more specificity and detail than you have ever provided to support any of your claims in any thread. But I'll answer your question for you. Relative to Europe, 15th century China, the " Muslim Middle East, and India (also then ruled by Muslims), were all more advanced in terms of science, law and order, high culture, medicine, mathematics, architecture, military sciences, philosophy, and the arts. But this is an intriguing date to select because Europe is just on the cusp of some of their big advances. The balance of power shifts throughout the next 250 years.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Marcus wrote:By Quigley's definition then, 16th century China was not a civilization at all but rather just a society.
Then "Quigley's definition" is a joke.

Islamic society, on the other hand, contained—indeed was founded upon—an instrument of expansion, the scimitar. Islamic society, however, was not a producing society, it was a subsistence society . . until Islam assimilated Persia. The "producing" component of Islamic "civilization" was and remains Persian.
Can you provide a single shred of evidence to support this falsehood? Every detail of this is factually wrong. Arab societies were "producing" societies for centuries prior to Islam, and afterwards as well. Moreover, Islam spread via conversion, and conversion could not be forced. If Islam converted Persia, then in what sense are subsequent Persian discoveries not also Islamic discoveries? And if the discoveries were entirely Persian then why did Persia not make these discoveries prior to their conversion to Islam? Explain this discrepancy.


We are left, by Quigley's definition, with only the West qualifying as a civilization . . Chinese, Indian, & Islamic were simply societies.
Ah, so Quigley is some kind of weird racist crackpot. That's probably why you never hear of him. Is he a Christian Recontructionist perhaps?


Moreover, if one cares to think about it, those ancient societies, with the exception of radical Islam, have now been incorporated into Western civilization/culture. Radical Islam, while sucking off the hind-tit of Western civilization, continues to bash its head against the legal foundations of that order.
Islam helped produce modern civilization, and without Islam Western civilization would be nothing. You would have no advanced mathematics, no science, and would still be medieval peasants. "Radicals" of any stripe remove themselves from the political and cultural mainstream, by definition.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Alexis wrote:Now of course the fact that the Chinese made better ships is not enough proof of general civilizational superiority. I guess having invented printing, and gunpowder, however also has to count for something: if I'm not mistaken Europeans in 15th century had not yet invented much.


Were their ships really better, or were they just bigger?


Also, while the Chinese were ahead of all their neighbours, I don't think it's true to say they were ahead of everyone.

Take glassware and optics. It's a crucial area of manufacture and mathematics and yet the Chinese were behind what the Greeks had managed to achieve 2000 years earlier.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Always amused and bemused by these never ending arguments about the past.

Esp when used to argue for some innate supposed superiority or inferiority of culture X.

Anyways, more people are better off today than any time in history.

One can only hope that this trend continues.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Ibrahim wrote:.

Islam helped produce modern civilization, and without Islam Western civilization would be nothing. You would have no advanced mathematics, no science, and would still be medieval peasants.

.


Told you guys Ibrahim most clear minded of us all, told you :lol:


Well, folks , am not sure of illiteracy but am sure of biased

How can somebody thinking he scientist, not know Europe was all Alchemy and non of Chemistry .. colonel, without Persian Kharazmi's Algorithm you would be counting now with your fingers with ROMAN NUMBERS :lol:

Come on, folks, come on

Science came from POST Islam Middle East .. Islam created a platform for science to take off .. Europe was all rubbish witchery, poor Galilee or Copernicus

All ground work of science started in ME (Persia) of POST Islam .. anybody saying otherwise should visit his village library, and, once read the facts, have the ball to say so

.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Ibrahim wrote: Islam helped produce modern civilization, and without Islam Western civilization would be nothing. You would have no advanced mathematics, no science, and would still be medieval peasants. "Radicals" of any stripe remove themselves from the political and cultural mainstream, by definition.
While Islam's golden era produced many wonderful things it devolved into a bunch of medieval peasants. That is not to say it can't go back to a golden age. In fact that is what the Muslim on Muslim conflict is really all about. But to ignore the scientific advances since the fall of the Muslim golden age like you are doing is pretty far out there.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Islam helped produce modern civilization, and without Islam Western civilization would be nothing. You would have no advanced mathematics, no science, and would still be medieval peasants. "Radicals" of any stripe remove themselves from the political and cultural mainstream, by definition.
While Islam's golden era produced many wonderful things it devolved into a bunch of medieval peasants. That is not to say it can't go back to a golden age. In fact that is what the Muslim on Muslim conflict is really all about. But to ignore the scientific advances since the fall of the Muslim golden age like you are doing is pretty far out there.

DOC, the most important thing that happened POST Islam .. was SCIENTIFIC THINKING .. LOGIC

Europe of that time did not know what LOGIC is .. without LOGIC there can not be scientific thinking

That scientific thinking is the nuclease of all what followed

Islam created a revolution for eduction and thinkers, with Arabic as universal language of science, thinkers from China to Andalus to Cairo could brainstorm and you know the result .. Enlightenment and reformation in Europe opened the gate for Europe to follow

.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Islam helped produce modern civilization, and without Islam Western civilization would be nothing. You would have no advanced mathematics, no science, and would still be medieval peasants. "Radicals" of any stripe remove themselves from the political and cultural mainstream, by definition.
While Islam's golden era produced many wonderful things it devolved into a bunch of medieval peasants. That is not to say it can't go back to a golden age. In fact that is what the Muslim on Muslim conflict is really all about. But to ignore the scientific advances since the fall of the Muslim golden age like you are doing is pretty far out there.

DOC, the most important thing that happened POST Islam .. was SCIENTIFIC THINKING .. LOGIC

Europe of that time did not know what LOGIC is .. without LOGIC there can not be scientific thinking

That scientific thinking is the nuclease of all what followed

Islam created a revolution for eduction and thinkers, with Arabic as universal language of science, thinkers from China to Andalus to Cairo could brainstorm and you know the result .. Enlightenment and reformation in Europe opened the gate for Europe to follow

.
In the same vane I could say that Islamic science was built on Greek science.I mean what is the point? If the Jihads had not happened it is quite likely the dark ages would not have happened as they did in Europe and the Europeans would have developed their science without Islam having anything to do with it. IE everything that Islam did was built on what came before From Christians and Hindus. IT is great that it added to what was known. But to try to claim exclusivity that it was all Islam is ridiculous.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Islam helped produce modern civilization, and without Islam Western civilization would be nothing. You would have no advanced mathematics, no science, and would still be medieval peasants. "Radicals" of any stripe remove themselves from the political and cultural mainstream, by definition.
While Islam's golden era produced many wonderful things it devolved into a bunch of medieval peasants. That is not to say it can't go back to a golden age. In fact that is what the Muslim on Muslim conflict is really all about. But to ignore the scientific advances since the fall of the Muslim golden age like you are doing is pretty far out there.

DOC, the most important thing that happened POST Islam .. was SCIENTIFIC THINKING .. LOGIC

Europe of that time did not know what LOGIC is .. without LOGIC there can not be scientific thinking

That scientific thinking is the nuclease of all what followed

Islam created a revolution for eduction and thinkers, with Arabic as universal language of science, thinkers from China to Andalus to Cairo could brainstorm and you know the result .. Enlightenment and reformation in Europe opened the gate for Europe to follow

.
In the same vane I could say that Islamic science was built on Greek science.I mean what is the point? If the Jihads had not happened it is quite likely the dark ages would not have happened as they did in Europe and the Europeans would have developed their science without Islam having anything to do with it. IE everything that Islam did was built on what came before From Christians and Hindus. IT is great that it added to what was known. But to try to claim exclusivity that it was all Islam is ridiculous.

.

True

but, nucleus were Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Pythagoras, Thales etc .. philosophy in reality IS "logic" and mathematics followed (but only mathematics, no chemistry or physic or Astronomy and and and, all those were by Pomegranates that had read Greek giants and applied their thinkings)

But

DOC

those Greeks were no Christians

meaning

the credit for Greek Giants of Philosophy or Mathematics and logic, does not go to Christianity, in fact very much to contrary .. Christianity was a hindrance to Scientific thinking

and

debate here is which religion, Christianity or Islam advanced Science and and

clear winner is Islam

.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Islam helped produce modern civilization, and without Islam Western civilization would be nothing. You would have no advanced mathematics, no science, and would still be medieval peasants. "Radicals" of any stripe remove themselves from the political and cultural mainstream, by definition.
While Islam's golden era produced many wonderful things it devolved into a bunch of medieval peasants. That is not to say it can't go back to a golden age. In fact that is what the Muslim on Muslim conflict is really all about. But to ignore the scientific advances since the fall of the Muslim golden age like you are doing is pretty far out there.

DOC, the most important thing that happened POST Islam .. was SCIENTIFIC THINKING .. LOGIC

Europe of that time did not know what LOGIC is .. without LOGIC there can not be scientific thinking

That scientific thinking is the nuclease of all what followed

Islam created a revolution for eduction and thinkers, with Arabic as universal language of science, thinkers from China to Andalus to Cairo could brainstorm and you know the result .. Enlightenment and reformation in Europe opened the gate for Europe to follow

.
In the same vane I could say that Islamic science was built on Greek science.I mean what is the point? If the Jihads had not happened it is quite likely the dark ages would not have happened as they did in Europe and the Europeans would have developed their science without Islam having anything to do with it. IE everything that Islam did was built on what came before From Christians and Hindus. IT is great that it added to what was known. But to try to claim exclusivity that it was all Islam is ridiculous.

.

True

but, nucleus were Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Pythagoras, Thales etc .. philosophy in reality IS "logic" and mathematics followed (but only mathematics, no chemistry or physic or Astronomy and and and, all those were by Pomegranates that had read Greek giants and applied their thinkings)

But

DOC

those Greeks were no Christians

meaning

the credit for Greek Giants of Philosophy or Mathematics and logic, does not go to Christianity, in fact very much to contrary .. Christianity was a hindrance to Scientific thinking

and

debate here is which religion, Christianity or Islam advanced Science and and

clear winner is Islam

.
Hmmm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_%28number%29#Egypt
The Arabic-language inheritance of science was largely Greek, initially from Nestorian Christians in Persia, but the first influences in astronomy were Hindu.[31] In 773, at Al-Mansur's behest, translations were made of the Siddhantas, Indian earliest astronomical treatises dating as far back as 425 B.C.; these versions may have been the vehicle through which the "Arabic" numerals and the zero were brought from India into the Muslim world.[32
]

In addition to that the Islamic Golden age is here for those that want to see it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anousheh_Ansari

Girl comes to the US founds a 600 million dollar company. Puts up the prize money for first private successful attempt to get into space. The first female Iranian astronaut. A great story. Father's across Iran should be telling their daughters "Why don't you grow up to be like her"
Last edited by Doc on Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Marcus
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

Everyone—Greeks, Persian, Muslims, Christians, etc., etc. etc.—thinks logically and rationally. Logic isn't the problem.

Everyone is pretty much logical in terms of their presuppositions. Poop in = poop out. Superstition in = superstition out. Truth/fact in = truth/fact out.

The foundations of the modern age's, systematic science lie in the Christian presuppositions of a rational, understandable God who created a cosmos that operates in terms of immutable, materialistic law and who invites—indeed commands—mankind to think His thoughts after Him.

Nowhere else . . though others have contributed to mankind's bank of scientific knowledge.
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Marcus
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

Doc wrote:. . it is quite likely the dark ages would not have happened as they did in Europe and the Europeans would have developed their science without Islam having anything to do with it. IE everything that Islam did was built on what came before From Christians and Hindus. IT is great that it added to what was known. But to try to claim exclusivity that it was all Islam is ridiculous.
Agreed. Scientific discoveries indeed occurred before the Reformation and the ensuing Enlightenment, but such discoveries were, as it were, accidental and not as a result of systematic pursuit in terms of faith-based presuppositions.

Moreover, "dark ages" by what standards? It was the dark ages, the formation of the Western Roman Church, the Papal Revolution, all culminating in the Reformation that laid the foundations for Western law and Science as a way of understanding the cosmos.

As for Christianity impeding Science, nothing could be further from the truth. The institutional Church certainly did but the Reformation broke the back of Specific Authority and opened the door to General Authority, thus unleashing the Enlightenment.

Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Pomegranates, and more . . all made "scientific" discoveries and advances, but it was the Christian West and the Christian West alone the supplied the foundational presuppositions that made and still make Science possible as a rational, systematic way of understanding the material cosmos.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
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"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

And in the FWIW department, this is one of those issues where one states one's views and reasons and moves on.

There are, as is apparent, different opinions here, everyone has supporting literature, and everyone thinks they're right.

So let's not resort to calling each other liars and bigots and racists and stupid and uneducated and and and and . . as ALI would say.

To each his own . . ;)
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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