The Third Jihad . .

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Parodite
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Parodite »

Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
Ibrahim
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Rhapsody wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim," and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
Ibrahim
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:The Muslim Brotherhood is the darling of Obama And Ibrahim.
Obviously falsehood. My opposition to the murder of pro-democracy protesters in Egypt, and by contradiction of Endo's false claims supporting their murder, does not imply that I support the Muslim Brotherhood.
Ibrahim
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:There is plenty of extremist violence advocated on this forum, but none of it from me.
No, you just speak up for those of your tribe who do...
Produce a single quote to back up this false accusation.


I don't understand how you think you can get from me correcting your false justifications for mass-murder, to me supporting extremism. And you can't, so you didn't try. You just went with the unsubstantiated smear.
Your consistent defense of the MB with the excuse that officially the MB is against all violence, forgetting that Muslim Brothers don't give a s_it about the official position and attack, burn and murder those who do not share their beliefs.
1. I said clearly I would never vote for the MB and don't support them.

2. You have never demonstrated any of your allegations about them, yet you continue to celebrate their murder and the overthrow of a democraticalyl elected government.

3. The official statements and actions, including the writing of laws and a constitution, are hightly relevant in the analysis of a political party.

4. There is much greater violence against Copts after the overthrow of the MB government than during.
Where on earth did you find such a big shovel Ibrahim?

https://www.google.com/#q=muslim+brothe ... tic+deaths
Egypt's Coptic Christians report fresh attacks on churches | World ...
http://www.theguardian.com › News › World news › Egypt‎
Aug 15, 2013 - Christian leaders blame Muslim Brotherhood supporters for arson and other attacks, including shooting death of teenage girl.
Marked for Death: Muslim Brotherhood Places 'X' Mark on Coptic ...
shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/.../marked-for-death-muslim-brotherhood...‎
Aug 30, 2013 - by Raymond Ibrahim | Islam Translated The Christian Copts of Shubra al-Khaima, Egypt, are in a “state of panic and terror” as “a number of ...
The Muslim Brotherhood's War on Coptic Christians - The Daily Beast
http://www.thedailybeast.com/.../the-mu ... c-chri...‎
Aug 22, 2013 - Brutal murders, looting and burning, Facebook rumors. Egypt's ... The Muslim Brotherhood is showing the world its true colors. The group that ...
Persecution of Copts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts‎
Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur expressed this belief in a 1997 interview. ... June 1981 — 81 Copts are killed by a mob of Muslims.
Despite 600 Deaths, Egypt's Christians Support Military's Eviction of ...
http://www.christianitytoday.com › 2013 › August (Web-only)
Aug 15, 2013 - Despite the deaths of more than 500 Muslim Brotherhood supporters ... Youssef Sidhom, editor-in-chief of Coptic newspaper Watani, explained ...
Marked for Death: Muslim Brotherhood Places 'X' Mark on Coptic ...
http://www.alipac.us › Forum › General › General Discussion‎
Aug 30, 2013 - Marked for Death: Muslim Brotherhood Places 'X' Mark on Coptic Christian Homes Posted by sharia unveiled on August 30, 2013 Posted in: ...
Muslim Brotherhood Treating Coptic Christians like Nazis Treated ...
voices.yahoo.com/muslim-brotherhood-treating-coptic-christians-like-12...‎
Aug 18, 2013 - Muslim Brotherhood Treating Coptic Christians like Nazis Treated Jews ... like they were Jews in 1930s Nazi Germany before the death camps ...
Egypt's Coptic Christians face unprecedented reprisals from the ...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/.../egyp ... cedent...‎
Aug 20, 2013 - “The Muslim Brotherhood were the ones who called for aggression ... Muslim working at a Christian-owned shop have been killed since Mr.
Egyptian “wedding of death” shows coptic ... - Legal Insurrection
legalinsurrection.com/.../egyptian-wedding-of-death-shows-coptic-christi...‎
6 days ago - Egyptian “Wedding of Death” Shows Coptic Christians Still Endangered ... the Muslim Brotherhood might stem more violence against its Coptic ...
BBC News - Egypt's Coptic Christians dread further backlash
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23662698‎
Aug 12, 2013 - But since President Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood were ... The Coptic Pope, Tawadros II, has received death threats, while ...
5. Your own position is exactly the position you are ascribing (without evidence) to the MB. You want them to be overthrown and killed because of your irrational hatred of them which isn't based on any facts.

So that pretty much takes care of your pathetic slanders. I've challenged you from the start to produce facts to back up your claims from any legitimate news organization and you failed. Maybe some youtube video made by a Copt living in the US running a propaganda clearing house? Something? Justify your own murderous ideology before falsely ascribing one to others.
Well you learned how to use Google, but you haven't linked to the articles correctly or question any portion of them in full. Why is that I wonder?

And if we look at them closely we see that they are either op-eds, or they report claims. None of them states as a fact that the MB is deliberately attack Copts. And if you weren't so bent on saving face and justifying the murder of people with different religious views than yours then it would occur to you that the MB doesn't even have any motivation to attack Copts, whereas the military government does, and there are more attacks now than during the time that the MB government was in power.

I mean you don't even really appreciate the diversity of groups in Egypt. Students protesting the overthrow of their democracy need to be lumped in with people who might be part of a fringe party that was part of the previous parliament who did attack Copts. That way when those students are gunned down by the army you can nod your head and say it was just, because while you just like seeing people you disagree with being murdered, it sounds better if you pretend it was grim necessity, not a personal pleasure.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim,"
I notice you left out the word "religious" and "light skinned". Why is that.
and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
Yeah. Like Libya for instance.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Doc
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Produce a single quote to back up this false accusation.


I don't understand how you think you can get from me correcting your false justifications for mass-murder, to me supporting extremism. And you can't, so you didn't try. You just went with the unsubstantiated smear.
Your consistent defense of the MB with the excuse that officially the MB is against all violence, forgetting that Muslim Brothers don't give a s_it about the official position and attack, burn and murder those who do not share their beliefs.
1. I said clearly I would never vote for the MB and don't support them.

2. You have never demonstrated any of your allegations about them, yet you continue to celebrate their murder and the overthrow of a democraticalyl elected government.

3. The official statements and actions, including the writing of laws and a constitution, are hightly relevant in the analysis of a political party.

4. There is much greater violence against Copts after the overthrow of the MB government than during.
Where on earth did you find such a big shovel Ibrahim?

https://www.google.com/#q=muslim+brothe ... tic+deaths
Egypt's Coptic Christians report fresh attacks on churches | World ...
http://www.theguardian.com › News › World news › Egypt‎
Aug 15, 2013 - Christian leaders blame Muslim Brotherhood supporters for arson and other attacks, including shooting death of teenage girl.
Marked for Death: Muslim Brotherhood Places 'X' Mark on Coptic ...
shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/.../marked-for-death-muslim-brotherhood...‎
Aug 30, 2013 - by Raymond Ibrahim | Islam Translated The Christian Copts of Shubra al-Khaima, Egypt, are in a “state of panic and terror” as “a number of ...
The Muslim Brotherhood's War on Coptic Christians - The Daily Beast
http://www.thedailybeast.com/.../the-mu ... c-chri...‎
Aug 22, 2013 - Brutal murders, looting and burning, Facebook rumors. Egypt's ... The Muslim Brotherhood is showing the world its true colors. The group that ...
Persecution of Copts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts‎
Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur expressed this belief in a 1997 interview. ... June 1981 — 81 Copts are killed by a mob of Muslims.
Despite 600 Deaths, Egypt's Christians Support Military's Eviction of ...
http://www.christianitytoday.com › 2013 › August (Web-only)
Aug 15, 2013 - Despite the deaths of more than 500 Muslim Brotherhood supporters ... Youssef Sidhom, editor-in-chief of Coptic newspaper Watani, explained ...
Marked for Death: Muslim Brotherhood Places 'X' Mark on Coptic ...
http://www.alipac.us › Forum › General › General Discussion‎
Aug 30, 2013 - Marked for Death: Muslim Brotherhood Places 'X' Mark on Coptic Christian Homes Posted by sharia unveiled on August 30, 2013 Posted in: ...
Muslim Brotherhood Treating Coptic Christians like Nazis Treated ...
voices.yahoo.com/muslim-brotherhood-treating-coptic-christians-like-12...‎
Aug 18, 2013 - Muslim Brotherhood Treating Coptic Christians like Nazis Treated Jews ... like they were Jews in 1930s Nazi Germany before the death camps ...
Egypt's Coptic Christians face unprecedented reprisals from the ...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/.../egyp ... cedent...‎
Aug 20, 2013 - “The Muslim Brotherhood were the ones who called for aggression ... Muslim working at a Christian-owned shop have been killed since Mr.
Egyptian “wedding of death” shows coptic ... - Legal Insurrection
legalinsurrection.com/.../egyptian-wedding-of-death-shows-coptic-christi...‎
6 days ago - Egyptian “Wedding of Death” Shows Coptic Christians Still Endangered ... the Muslim Brotherhood might stem more violence against its Coptic ...
BBC News - Egypt's Coptic Christians dread further backlash
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23662698‎
Aug 12, 2013 - But since President Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood were ... The Coptic Pope, Tawadros II, has received death threats, while ...
5. Your own position is exactly the position you are ascribing (without evidence) to the MB. You want them to be overthrown and killed because of your irrational hatred of them which isn't based on any facts.

So that pretty much takes care of your pathetic slanders. I've challenged you from the start to produce facts to back up your claims from any legitimate news organization and you failed. Maybe some youtube video made by a Copt living in the US running a propaganda clearing house? Something? Justify your own murderous ideology before falsely ascribing one to others.
Well you learned how to use Google, but you haven't linked to the articles correctly or question any portion of them in full. Why is that I wonder?
Gee Ibrahim you petty insults burn BURN I SAY !! HELP ME I AM MELTING HELP ME !!
My turn I did provide teh links apparently you havn't figured out how to click on them yet.
I will give you a hint IF you see blue text that is underlined https://www.google.com/#q=muslim+brothe ... tic+deaths you click on it and it takes you to the page. :roll:

You saying you don't support the Mothers from diferent brothers then going on to so venemently support them-- Saying
There is much greater violence against Copts after the overthrow of the MB government than during.
Is like sayig more Jews died before and after the Nazi were in control of Germany. It would be a true statement however the Jews that died before the Nazi came to power did not die in gas chambers.
And if we look at them closely we see that they are either op-eds, or they report claims. None of them states as a fact that the MB is deliberately attack Copts. And if you weren't so bent on saving face and justifying the murder of people with different religious views than yours then it would occur to you that the MB doesn't even have any motivation to attack Copts, whereas the military government does, and there are more attacks now than during the time that the MB government was in power.
What they all say is the Mothers of different brothers are the folks that are killing copts The Egyptian people are saying the Mothers from different brothers are killing Copts. What is it? nearly 90% of the Egyptian people are declaring their support for the Military. Seems like a good time to hold a free and fair election but like YOU I am not Egyptian.
I mean you don't even really appreciate the diversity of groups in Egypt. Students protesting the overthrow of their democracy need to be lumped in with people who might be part of a fringe party that was part of the previous parliament who did attack Copts. That way when those students are gunned down by the army you can nod your head and say it was just, because while you just like seeing people you disagree with being murdered, it sounds better if you pretend it was grim necessity, not a personal pleasure.
OH ok 883,000 links for The mother of different Brothers are killing Copts are all lying and you are telling the truth :roll:
BUt now I will ad this RELIGION AND POLITICS DO NOT MIX WELL. Be it Islam or Christianity or communist personality cults or soclialist humanism THey all base their rules on perceived absolute truth. Which is always subverted to human flaws by flawed human beings. God does not reside in Washington DC or Brussels or Berlin Or Tehran OR Riyadh or Beijing or Pyongyang. or the Vatican or Moscow or even Cairo If you want to meet your God look elsewhere.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Parodite
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Parodite »

Ibrahim wrote:
Rhapsody wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim," and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
The analogy between western racist hate groups and their Islamic extremist counter parts is a good one. However this is not where Typhoon put the analogy, which what I was responding to. Many religious extremist groups, be it Christian, Islamic or other.. do not promote intolerance nor resort to physical violence of the sort we are talking about here. "Religious extremism" I find a way to general container. "Brainwashed, intolerant, violent fanatics" suits better.
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Marcus
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

Parodite wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
Exactly, Rhap, exactly.

And the difference is Islam itself which is not so much a religion as it is an imperialistic, intolerant world-view that has been bashing its head against the Western legal tradition for a thousand years or so.

Islam uber alles . . that's the bottom line . . :(
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Rhapsody wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim," and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
The analogy between western racist hate groups and their Islamic extremist counter parts is a good one. However this is not where Typhoon put the analogy, which what I was responding to. Many religious extremist groups, be it Christian, Islamic or other.. do not promote intolerance nor resort to physical violence of the sort we are talking about here. "Religious extremism" I find a way to general container. "Brainwashed, intolerant, violent fanatics" suits better.

.

If a Buddhist or a Hindu would criticize Islam, I would not suspect racism, intolerance or bigotry, I would look into criticism

but

if a Christian or a Jewish would criticism Islam I would suspect either lack of deep knowledge of what he talking or other motives

Reason is, as Islam, Moh, appeared on the scene 800 yrs after Christianity (Jesus), or even (@least) 1800 yrs after Judaism we know today, as in Damascus (and elsewhere) he was well among Jews and Christians, he took all his ideas from Judaism and Christianity and "adapted" to his folks in Mecca .. in that sense, he did not bring "anything new" but Arabized Judaism and Christianity for his folks .. (more and less), every rule in Islam comes from Judaisms or Christianity .. am told, stoning for adultery was adapted from Judaism AND Christianity (apparently there is stoning for adultery in Judaism and Christianity), fasting same, Kosher/Halaal same, circumcision of baby boys same, coverign head and hair (hijab) same, all rules of Islam openly taken from Judaism

I remember folks on this fora were ridiculing in Iran people writing messages to "Mahdi" and stick it to wall, where did they get the idea ?
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So, what are you guys debating or complaining ? ?

Notion Christianity of today not same as original one, not a valid argument as 99% of Muslims of today too not same as the original ones

and

Extremist, crazy religious zealots exist in every religion

Look, Christians and Jews and Muslims lived in harmony for 100s of yrs in ME .. Middle East considers those religions "home grown" and people of those believes not only "tolerate" but RESPECT each other .. it is not so that Iranians look down to Christian Armenian and just tolerate them .. NO .. Iranians consider Christian Armenians equal and love them, same with Iranian Jews and Zoroastrians

West has not this tradition .. and .. for west, Islam and Judaism not considered related to that kind of Christianity west propagates (western civilization) .. considering Christianity came from Asia minor, Constantinople and not London or Berlin or Paris or Rome

That's why I do not engage in this kind of debate, otherwise I could post many crazy clips

but

valid argument could be made, that Islam must be adopted to our time, like Christianity

That a valid argument, and it is already in process


.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Doc
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Rhapsody wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim," and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
The analogy between western racist hate groups and their Islamic extremist counter parts is a good one. However this is not where Typhoon put the analogy, which what I was responding to. Many religious extremist groups, be it Christian, Islamic or other.. do not promote intolerance nor resort to physical violence of the sort we are talking about here. "Religious extremism" I find a way to general container. "Brainwashed, intolerant, violent fanatics" suits better.

.

If a Buddhist or a Hindu would criticize Islam, I would not suspect racism, intolerance or bigotry, I would look into criticism

but

if a Christian or a Jewish would criticism Islam I would suspect either lack of deep knowledge of what he talking or other motives

Reason is, as Islam, Moh, appeared on the scene 800 yrs after Christianity (Jesus), or even (@least) 1800 yrs after Judaism (we know today, as in Damascus (and elsewhere) he was well among Jews and Christians, he took all his ideas from Judaism and Christianity and "adapted" to his folks in Mecca .. in that sense, he did not bring "anything new" but Arabized Judaism and Christianity for his folks .. (more and less), every rule in Islam comes from Judaisms or Christianity .. am told, stoning for adultery was adapted from Judaism AND Christianity (apparently there is stoning for adultery in Judaism and Christianity), fasting same, Kosher/Halaal same, circumcision of baby boys same, all rules of Islam are openly taken from Judaism

I remember folks on this fora were ridiculing in Iran people writing messages to "Mahdi" and stick it to wall, where did they get the idea ?
Image
Image
Image
So would any of these guys be allowed to go to Mecca during Hajj?

So, what are you guys debating or complaining ? ?

Notion Christianity of today not same as original one, not a valid argument as 99% of Muslims of today too not same as the original ones

and

Extremist, crazy religious zealots exist in every religion

Look, Christians and Jews and Muslims lived in harmony for 100s of yrs in ME .. Middle East considers those religions "home grown" and people of those believes not only "tolerate" but RESPECT each other .. it is not so that Iranians look down to Christian Armenian and just tolerate them .. NO .. Iranians consider Christian Armenians equal and love them, same with Iranian Jews and Zoroastrians

West has not this tradition .. and .. for west, Islam and Judaism not considered related to that kind of Christianity west propagates (western civilization) .. considering Christianity came from Asia minor, Constantinople and not London or Berlin or Paris or Rome

That's why I do not engage in this kind of debate, otherwise I could post many crazy clips

but

valid argument could be made, that Islam must be adopted to our time, like Christianity

That a valid argument, and it is already in process


.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Rhapsody wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim," and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
The analogy between western racist hate groups and their Islamic extremist counter parts is a good one. However this is not where Typhoon put the analogy, which what I was responding to. Many religious extremist groups, be it Christian, Islamic or other.. do not promote intolerance nor resort to physical violence of the sort we are talking about here. "Religious extremism" I find a way to general container. "Brainwashed, intolerant, violent fanatics" suits better.

.

If a Buddhist or a Hindu would criticize Islam, I would not suspect racism, intolerance or bigotry, I would look into criticism

but

if a Christian or a Jewish would criticism Islam I would suspect either lack of deep knowledge of what he talking or other motives

Reason is, as Islam, Moh, appeared on the scene 800 yrs after Christianity (Jesus), or even (@least) 1800 yrs after Judaism (we know today, as in Damascus (and elsewhere) he was well among Jews and Christians, he took all his ideas from Judaism and Christianity and "adapted" to his folks in Mecca .. in that sense, he did not bring "anything new" but Arabized Judaism and Christianity for his folks .. (more and less), every rule in Islam comes from Judaisms or Christianity .. am told, stoning for adultery was adapted from Judaism AND Christianity (apparently there is stoning for adultery in Judaism and Christianity), fasting same, Kosher/Halaal same, circumcision of baby boys same, all rules of Islam are openly taken from Judaism

I remember folks on this fora were ridiculing in Iran people writing messages to "Mahdi" and stick it to wall, where did they get the idea ?


Image
Image
Image


.


So would any of these guys be allowed to go to Mecca during Hajj ?


.


No expert in Islamic theology

but

As Jesus and Moses Muslim prophet same rank as Moh, and, Christianity and Judaism same rank as Islam, I do not see why these people sould not be allowed into any mosque or Mecca

Am not sure you guys understand what Islam re Christians and Jews says

Islam says G_D sent first Moses as a prophet (messenger) to enlighten his people (Hebrew tribe), later on he sent Jesus to enlighten his people

AND

finally he sent MOH, as his LAST messenger to enlighten his people

Emphasize is on "LAST" .. meaning MOH "last" messenger he sent

Islam considers Judaism and Christianity as G_D sent .. but Islam is the last G_D sent .. like a software, Judaism original version, Christianity first upgrade, Islam last upgrade .. last upgrade can not deny the original or the version B4 :lol:

In that sense, Christianity and Judaism as "divine and HOLLY" as Islam .. and, in a sense Moses and Jesus have "seniority"

All that means, for a Christian or Jew, criticizing Islam is "pissing in the wind" :lol:

.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Doc
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Rhapsody wrote: Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim," and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
The analogy between western racist hate groups and their Islamic extremist counter parts is a good one. However this is not where Typhoon put the analogy, which what I was responding to. Many religious extremist groups, be it Christian, Islamic or other.. do not promote intolerance nor resort to physical violence of the sort we are talking about here. "Religious extremism" I find a way to general container. "Brainwashed, intolerant, violent fanatics" suits better.

.

If a Buddhist or a Hindu would criticize Islam, I would not suspect racism, intolerance or bigotry, I would look into criticism

but

if a Christian or a Jewish would criticism Islam I would suspect either lack of deep knowledge of what he talking or other motives

Reason is, as Islam, Moh, appeared on the scene 800 yrs after Christianity (Jesus), or even (@least) 1800 yrs after Judaism (we know today, as in Damascus (and elsewhere) he was well among Jews and Christians, he took all his ideas from Judaism and Christianity and "adapted" to his folks in Mecca .. in that sense, he did not bring "anything new" but Arabized Judaism and Christianity for his folks .. (more and less), every rule in Islam comes from Judaisms or Christianity .. am told, stoning for adultery was adapted from Judaism AND Christianity (apparently there is stoning for adultery in Judaism and Christianity), fasting same, Kosher/Halaal same, circumcision of baby boys same, all rules of Islam are openly taken from Judaism

I remember folks on this fora were ridiculing in Iran people writing messages to "Mahdi" and stick it to wall, where did they get the idea ?


Image
Image
Image


.


So would any of these guys be allowed to go to Mecca during Hajj ?


.


No expert in Islamic theology

but

As Jesus and Moses Muslim prophet same rank as Moh, and, Christianity and Judaism same rank as Islam, I do not see why these people sould not be allowed into any mosque or Mecca

Am not sure you guys understand what Islam re Christians and Jews says

Islam says G_D sent first Moses as a prophet (messenger) to enlighten his people (Hebrew tribe), later on he sent Jesus to enlighten his people

AND

finally he sent MOH, as his LAST messenger to enlighten his people

Emphasize is on "LAST" .. meaning MOH "last" messenger he sent

Islam considers Judaism and Christianity as G_D sent .. but Islam is the last G_D sent .. like a software, Judaism original version, Christianity first upgrade, Islam last upgrade .. last upgrade can not deny the original or the version B4 :lol:

In that sense, Christianity and Judaism as "divine and HOLLY" as Islam .. and, in a sense Moses and Jesus have "seniority" :lol:

.
YET:
http://wikitravel.org/en/Mecca
Mecca or Makkah (Arabic: مكة المكرمة Makkah al-Mukarramah), located in western Saudi Arabia, is the holiest city in Islam. It is strictly forbidden for Non-Muslims to enter the city and this is strongly enforced.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:.

YET:

Mecca or Makkah (Arabic: مكة المكرمة Makkah al-Mukarramah), located in western Saudi Arabia, is the holiest city in Islam. It is strictly forbidden for Non-Muslims to enter the city and this is strongly enforced.

.


Well,

DOC

who forbids Christians or Jews entering Makkeh or any mosque ? ?

Not Islam, neither Ghoran

The Ibn Saud mafia, follower of that heretic Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

In Arabia, there were 100s of empty head theologians like Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab .. Middle East full of those "philosopher and theologian" nuts

Only when American shook hand with Ibn Saud, a fringe sect of Islam, Wahhabi were elevated to present positions with devastating consequences

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab a very VIVID sample for you guys to understand that IRANIAN philosophers were the ones who gave the philosophical DEPT to Islam .. you see in Wahhabism how primitive that original might have been

In that sense, responsibility of further advance, reformation of Islam, again, falls on Iranian thinkers

Looks to me, America now came to this conclusion

and

Iran will take care of Jews too, they deserve a home if they wish so .. meaning, Mosche should relaaaax (wouldn't be astonished if BiBi first to drop in Tehran B4 Kerry surprises us visiting the family of his son in law in Tehran for an Iranian feast :lol: )

.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:. . IRANIAN philosophers were the ones who gave the philosophical DEPT to Islam .. you see in Wahhabism how primitive that original might have been

In that sense, responsibility of further advance, reformation of Islam, again, falls on Iranian thinkers . .
Totally agree with your first claim, ALI, partially agree with the second.

Christianity always reformed from within as it contains both the mechanisms and impetus to do so. Islam lacks both and thus lacks the internal ability to reform which it must.

Persia, as the Islamic Republic of Iran, has opened the door that cannot be shut . . not by the Imams and not by the Ayatollahs. Islam will be reformed in the decades and centuries to come . . not from within but from without. Iran is the seedbed.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Marcus wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

. . IRANIAN philosophers were the ones who gave the philosophical DEPT to Islam .. you see in Wahhabism how primitive that original might have been

In that sense, responsibility of further advance, reformation of Islam, again, falls on Iranian thinkers . .
Totally agree with your first claim, ALI, partially agree with the second.

Christianity always reformed from within as it contains both the mechanisms and impetus to do so. Islam lacks both and thus lacks the internal ability to reform which it must.

Persia, as the Islamic Republic of Iran, has opened the door that cannot be shut . . not by the Imams and not by the Ayatollahs. Islam will be reformed in the decades and centuries to come . . not from within but from without. Iran is the seedbed.

.


Reason, impetus, for reforming Christianity, and reason (impetus) for reforming Islam not same, in fact they "unrelated"

Luther got the ball rolling against TYRANNY of RCC .. Luther did not revolt against Christianity, he revolted against Christian Institution (abuses), RCC

People in Europe rose up against "tyranny" of Church .. Luther at the beginning had no theological differences, or wanting to "re-interpret" the writings in Bible, to argue Bible says this but does not mean as RCC saying so .. yes, true, things later developed further and we are now at RCC approving guy bishops or saying atheist too can go to paradise

Right now, Islamic mosques, wahhabi, kept only alive with American support .. in Islamic world people have the power and not mad mullahs and Ayatollahs .. mad mullahs and Ayatollahs derive their power from their followers (Marja)

Reason for Middle East wanting Islam to reform is not "abuse" by Ayatollahs,

but, reason is

Middle Eastern people want to ADAPT their religion, their moral, ethnics to modern time .. to reboot .. reinterpret Ghoran for today's needs .. Islam regulates daily life.

This a high philosophical task, as, in reality, a NEW religion must be invented that adapts "seamless" and would sink in .. it must adhere to Middle Eastern mindset, mentality and history, and, it must be cosmopolitan .. this already happening in Iran .. everyday, in Iranian TV, there are very high level debates by university professors debating Ayatollahs these issues very openly, the mad mullahs not only welcoming it but backing it, because a reformed Islam will be much stronger Islam and in their interest.

Reform Islam will be in sense of RUMI Islam.

.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Rhapsody wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Rhapsody wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Anyways, it would not be at all difficult to produce an analogous video featuring Made in the USA religious extremists.
Analogous in as far as mental illness goes. The application of physical violence by Islamic extremists though, needs a different analogy. Who send bullets throught the brains of young school girls, who blow up buses packed with civilians.. all with the intent to kill, maime, instill fear and horror? These are different types of animals than just "religious extremists".
As I've been pointing out, Western racist groups routinely attack and kill fellow citizens with dark skin or certain clothes or "look Muslim," and Western armed forces drop bombs on villages and gathers, knowing killing civilians. So really there is no difference except that the killing of civilians conducted by Western extremists are mirrored by foreign policy at the highest levels.
The analogy between western racist hate groups and their Islamic extremist counter parts is a good one. However this is not where Typhoon put the analogy, which what I was responding to.
My understanding, and Typhoon can correct me if I am wrong, is that he was comparing the fringe groups depicted in the video with fringe groups in the US. I.e. both are marginal and a clip show of their speeches proves nothing about the wider society.



Many religious extremist groups, be it Christian, Islamic or other.. do not promote intolerance nor resort to physical violence of the sort we are talking about here. "Religious extremism" I find a way to general container. "Brainwashed, intolerant, violent fanatics" suits better.
Well this is an inherent problem with the Islamophobic perception of religious extremism. There are some very extreme, very conservative Islamic schools of thought that are not violent at all. There are Muslims who aren't particularly interested in theology or religious observance who are violent and part of militant organizations. This confusion between violence and religious conservatism is both produced by, and causes more, very inaccurate claims about the subject.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:Christianity always reformed from within as it contains both the mechanisms and impetus to do so. Islam lacks both and thus lacks the internal ability to reform which it must.
Clearly false. Islam has evolved and changed throughout its history, and to speak of "reform" in Christian terms is not really useful given that all of the issues addressed in the European reformation were never present in Islam. No basis for the empty assertion that "no reform is possible" is made, and history proves that it is.



And the difference is Islam itself which is not so much a religion as it is an imperialistic, intolerant world-view that has been bashing its head against the Western legal tradition for a thousand years or so.
Clearly false. In point of fact that last 400 years have consisted primarily of Western Christians attacking and invading Muslim countries (and countries all over the world, sometimes exterminating the local inhabitants). Insofar as there have been historical Islamic empires there have also been Christian empires, and on the whole the Christian empires have engaged in more unprovoked invasions, more genocide, and more supremacism than their Islamic counterparts.


Both of these claims can only be made out of the most extreme historical ignorance. A very slight bit of reading could correct both erroneous perceptions. This also has little to do with the propaganda film presented at the start of the thread.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Luther got the ball rolling against TYRANNY of RCC .. Luther did not revolt against Christianity, he revolted against Christian Institution (abuses), RCC

People in Europe rose up against "tyranny" of Church .. Luther at the beginning had no theological differences, or wanting to "re-interpret" the writings in Bible, to argue Bible says this but does not mean as RCC saying so .. yes, true, things later developed further and we are now at RCC approving guy bishops or saying atheist too can go to paradise

Right now, Islamic mosques, wahhabi, kept only alive with American support .. in Islamic world people have the power and not mad mullahs and Ayatollahs .. mad mullahs and Ayatollahs derive their power from their followers (Marja)

Reason for Middle East wanting Islam to reform is not "abuse" by Ayatollahs,

but, reason is

Middle Eastern people want to ADAPT their religion, their moral, ethnics to modern time .. to reboot .. reinterpret Ghoran for today's needs .. Islam regulates daily life.

This a high philosophical task, as, in reality, a NEW religion must be invented that adapts "seamless" and would sink in .. it must adhere to Middle Eastern mindset, mentality and history, and, it must be cosmopolitan .. this already happening in Iran .. everyday, in Iranian TV, there are very high level debates by university professors debating Ayatollahs these issues very openly, the mad mullahs not only welcoming it but backing it, because a reformed Islam will be much stronger Islam and in their interest.

Reform Islam will be in sense of RUMI Islam.

.
Not a lot to disagree with there, ALI, except to say that what Luther rebelled against was any authority other than the individual human conscience.

Think about it . . it was the Reformation that made possible the Enlightenment and all that followed . . the Reformation was the dawning of the modern age. Yes, Luther's original gripe was with the abuses of the Western Church as Luther outlined them in his 95 Theses, but the real issue was distilled and defined at the Diet of Worms: "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

That mechanism was already there in Christianity—it erupted internally within the Church and generated the Reformation, thereby opening a door not Pope nor Emperor nor King could shut.

Islam must follow suit and learn to respect the individual human conscience wherein there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, or, for that matter, not Muslim nor Jew nor Christian nor Atheist nor . . . .

Or, in other words . . "To each his own" . . ;)
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote: Not a lot to disagree with there, ALI, except to say that what Luther rebelled against was any authority other than the individual human conscience.

Why did he support the persecution of e.g. Jews and Anabaptists, then?

Think about it . . it was the Reformation that made possible the Enlightenment and all that followed . . the Reformation was the dawning of the modern age.
False. The reformation simply localized clerical authority and revenue streams from a centralized European church to state-based organizations. It is distinct from the ideas of the Enlightenment, and Enlightenment thinkers clashed with clerical authorities in Protestant states just as in Catholic states. Though arguably the diffusion of power across several rather than a single organization weakened the ability to suppress unorthodox views.

Yes, Luther's original gripe was with the abuses of the Western Church as Luther outlined them in his 95 Theses, but the real issue was distilled and defined at the Diet of Worms: "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."
This is the method Islam employed from its outset. There is no hierarchy or religious authority beyond what is conferred by respect for individual scholars, and "there is no compulsion in religion." The smallest bit of research into the subject would have informed you that you are simultaneously insisting on changes, and claiming that such changes are impossible, when in fact the changes you are demanding were already there from the outset.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:. . The reformation [diffused] power across several rather than a single organization weakened the ability to suppress unorthodox views. . .
You're getting warm . . ;)
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

You missed a number of the key points, Marcus.

Marcus wrote: Not a lot to disagree with there, ALI, except to say that what Luther rebelled against was any authority other than the individual human conscience.

Why did he support the persecution of e.g. Jews and Anabaptists, then?

Think about it . . it was the Reformation that made possible the Enlightenment and all that followed . . the Reformation was the dawning of the modern age.
False. The reformation simply localized clerical authority and revenue streams from a centralized European church to state-based organizations. It is distinct from the ideas of the Enlightenment, and Enlightenment thinkers clashed with clerical authorities in Protestant states just as in Catholic states. Though arguably the diffusion of power across several rather than a single organization weakened the ability to suppress unorthodox views.

Yes, Luther's original gripe was with the abuses of the Western Church as Luther outlined them in his 95 Theses, but the real issue was distilled and defined at the Diet of Worms: "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."
This is the method Islam employed from its outset. There is no hierarchy or religious authority beyond what is conferred by respect for individual scholars, and "there is no compulsion in religion." The smallest bit of research into the subject would have informed you that you are simultaneously insisting on changes, and claiming that such changes are impossible, when in fact the changes you are demanding were already there from the outset.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Ibrahim »

Oh, and answer these questions when you have time:


Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Now they have to temerity to squall like a stuck hog about collateral damage when the West reacts in self-defense?
Innocent people in Pakistan, Yemen, and elsewhere are complaining about the US military murdering their family members for no reason. If somebody blew your granddaughter to smithereens with a Hellfire missile because they didn't like "Christians" how do you think you'd respond? Would you "squall like a stuck hog?"

Why would you try to minimize and defend the murder of civilians based on their religious affiliation?
Seems monstrously immoral, as well as un-Christian and un-Islamic.



Watch the film . . by a Muslim about radical Islam . . decide for yourself.
Why does the religion of the filmmaker matter? If I link to pro-Islam films or books by Muslims will you then change your mind and believe something else?
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Knock, knock . . .

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:Oh, and . .
UU0X1kEPhqA
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Marcus wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Luther got the ball rolling against TYRANNY of RCC .. Luther did not revolt against Christianity, he revolted against Christian Institution (abuses), RCC

People in Europe rose up against "tyranny" of Church .. Luther at the beginning had no theological differences, or wanting to "re-interpret" the writings in Bible, to argue Bible says this but does not mean as RCC saying so .. yes, true, things later developed further and we are now at RCC approving guy bishops or saying atheist too can go to paradise

Right now, Islamic mosques, wahhabi, kept only alive with American support .. in Islamic world people have the power and not mad mullahs and Ayatollahs .. mad mullahs and Ayatollahs derive their power from their followers (Marja)

Reason for Middle East wanting Islam to reform is not "abuse" by Ayatollahs,

but, reason is

Middle Eastern people want to ADAPT their religion, their moral, ethnics to modern time .. to reboot .. reinterpret Ghoran for today's needs .. Islam regulates daily life.

This a high philosophical task, as, in reality, a NEW religion must be invented that adapts "seamless" and would sink in .. it must adhere to Middle Eastern mindset, mentality and history, and, it must be cosmopolitan .. this already happening in Iran .. everyday, in Iranian TV, there are very high level debates by university professors debating Ayatollahs these issues very openly, the mad mullahs not only welcoming it but backing it, because a reformed Islam will be much stronger Islam and in their interest.

Reform Islam will be in sense of RUMI Islam.

.
Not a lot to disagree with there, ALI, except to say that what Luther rebelled against was any authority other than the individual human conscience.

Think about it . . it was the Reformation that made possible the Enlightenment and all that followed . . the Reformation was the dawning of the modern age. Yes, Luther's original gripe was with the abuses of the Western Church as Luther outlined them in his 95 Theses, but the real issue was distilled and defined at the Diet of Worms: "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

That mechanism was already there in Christianity—it erupted internally within the Church and generated the Reformation, thereby opening a door not Pope nor Emperor nor King could shut.

Islam must follow suit and learn to respect the individual human conscience wherein there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, or, for that matter, not Muslim nor Jew nor Christian nor Atheist nor . . . .

Or, in other words . . "To each his own" . . ;)

.


True, Luther cutting the power of RCC, sole Christian institution of the time, opened the gates to enlightement leading to reformation, true

But the situation with Islam is different

Contrary to Christian Institution of that time, RCC, and Christianity in general, one of "central tenet" of Islam is push for education, science and and and

There is a reason why science, philosophy and and exploded and lead to Golden Age of Islam and later was adapted by Europeans AFTER Islam overthrow the "cast based" civilizations and cultures of that time .. reason was, Islam promoted education, science, logic and and .. Islam of Andalusia and "Greater Persia" was a very vibrant and progressive civilization, pretty much all Persian giants of science and philosophy and literature were AFTER Islam .. In that sense, Middle East (Islam), does not need an enlightenment but rather a "philosophical" re-adaptation & reinterpretation of Islam

.
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Re: The Third Jihad . .

Post by Marcus »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:True, Luther cutting the power of RCC, sole Christian institution of the time, opened the gates to enlightement leading to reformation, true

But the situation with Islam is different

Contrary to Christian Institution of that time, RCC, and Christianity in general, one of "central tenet" of Islam is push for education, science and and and

There is a reason why science, philosophy and and exploded and lead to Golden Age of Islam and later was adapted by Europeans AFTER Islam overthrow the "cast based" civilizations and cultures of that time .. reason was, Islam promoted education, science, logic and and .. Islam of Andalusia and "Greater Persia" was a very vibrant and progressive civilization, pretty much all Persian giants of science and philosophy and literature were AFTER Islam .. In that sense, Middle East (Islam), does not need an enlightenment but rather a "philosophical" re-adaptation & reinterpretation of Islam.
ALI,

The Roman Catholic Church, after 1054 and the Papal Revolution, was the sole Christian institution in the West only. The Orthodox Church was nearly equally so in the East.

Second, any impetus for education, science, and-and-and came not from Islam but from Islam's assimilation of Persia. Islam knows nothing of such matters, nothing beyond a bloody scimitar. Persia would have been part of the West had it not been for its domination by Islam and the Turks.

The same may be said of Islam's assimilation of Andalusia in that the greater influence flowed from West to East, not from East to West. Any so-called "golden age" of Islam is more properly understood as Persian and Christian as those social orders softened Islam's hard edges and illuminated its dark alleyways.

Third, Islam is parasitic, parasitic initially in its bastardization of Old Testament Judaism and Mosaic Law and secondarily of primitive Christianity. Islam offers nothing but a sort of fatalistic status quo disturbed only by the sword. Many peoples and cultures, beginning with the Greeks, made scientific discoveries, but it was only in the Christian West that science as science became a sort of materialistic world-view, the world-view that ushered in the Enlightenment.

Finally, however one wishes to define it, Islam is incompatible with contemporary, secular culture and must be reformed/readapted/reinterpreted/whatever. The only thing that is currently retarding that cataclysm has been the Turkish and Western domination of Persia.

As Iran is allowed to enter the world stage as an independent player in its own right, only then will Iran/Persia provide the context for the reformation of Islam.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
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