Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

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Alexis
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

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Ibrahim wrote:Again, this makes no sense unless you plan to isolate the US from global markets and organize some kind of centrally planned domestic economy. Is that the plan, comrade?
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

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Alexis wrote:
Doc wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24823846
Saudi nuclear weapons 'on order' from Pakistan
No factual news here:

- That Saudi Arabia had got the longest range IRBMs in the ME (DF-3A, 3,000 km, Israel built longer-range Jericho III only by 2008) is known for more than 20 years. It's not a secret, it has been public for ages. It's just not as widely debated as Iraq's then Iran's missiles were / are.

- That Pakistani nuclear weapon program received significant financial help from Saudi Arabia also has been known since the 1990s. Not a secret either, or more exactly such a thinly veiled secret as to be public.


The only thing that would be news is Pakistan being willing to actually provide nuclear weapons to Saudi Arabia. That is certainly a possibility. Also, discussing that possibility is a valid pressure tactic at the time when possible agreement with Iran is discussed. That being said, a number of points must be recalled:

- Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have a strong and longstanding relationship, reinforced by the very strict interpretation of Islam that they share. However, agreements "in case of need" are not necessarily respected, because nations will cater to their own interests in case of need, in priority to those of friends. Are Pakistani and Saudi interests linked enough for Pakistan to make the extraordinary step of giving nuclear weapons to another country without a "double key" security?

I don't know. I have to remark that such a move would be unprecedented.

- Chinese missiles maintained by Chinese specialists on the one hand, nuclear weapons provided by Pakistanis on the other hand do not a deterrent force make. Even if missiles and nukes are supposed to be compatible with one another. Tests would need to be carried out. At a minimum ballistic missile firing with representative mockup of the warhead. Those tests would be detectable and provide advance warning.

Moreover, engineers and technicians would be needed to carry those tests out. I have personal anecdotal evidence of technical proficiency levels in Saudi Arabia, which goes the same way as anecdotal evidence from about every other source, and I don't believe the technicians could be Saudis. So, more Pakistanis and/or Chinese?

And the resulting force would be controlled by Saudis... right? :) The Saudis would say so... and we would be expected to believe them, right ? :lol:


What looks a more believable possibility than the "Saudi independent nuclear deterrent" scenario is Pakistan agreeing to provide nuclear weapons to Saudi Arabia under security of "double key", similar to America providing to this day nuclear weapons to Germany, Italy, etc: the aircraft pilot is e.g. German, but he is physically prevented from firing the bomb carried by his aircraft except if he receives a key in two parts, one of which is under control of German government, other under control of US government.

Of course, nobody is saying that Germany has an operational nuclear force. These weapons are just a particular case of US nuke where additional agreement from German government is required in addition to US one.

If Pakistan agreed to provide such arrangement to Saudi Arabia, that would be a very strong political statement, but these weapons would remain a particular case of Pakistani nuclear weapon.

(that's a If...)
Except you forgot to say the Pakistanis also have Nuclear tipped ballistic missiles and your personal experience with Saudis technical competence is hardly the same thing as there are no competent engineers in the KSA.

Really all your above statements only amount to wishful thinking. But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:

And again I am sayng the US doesn't have to export a drop. If there is an excess of oil in the US and there are no exports the price of oil willreflect actual production not the price fixing of OPEC
Again, this makes no sense unless you plan to isolate the US from global markets and organize some kind of centrally planned domestic economy. Is that the plan, comrade?
We don't need ME oil. Deal with it

You don't know what you're talking about.



Any fair reading of the article would conclude that the Saudis will have a nuke as soon as they take delivery.
No. Any intelligent reading of the article is that an unnamed source claims that Pakistan is prepared to deliver a weapon to the KSA is they want one.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

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Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
Then why is Israel so fixated on attacking Iran to prevent their construction of a nuclear weapon if its no big deal?


Anyway some numbers from wikipedia, just for quick context:

Israel:
2010– According to Jane's Defense Weekly Israel has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads, most of them are probably being kept in unassembled mode but can become fully functional "in a matter of days".[114]
2010– "More than 100 weapons, mainly two-stage thermonuclear devices, capable of being delivered by missile, fighter-bomber, or submarine"[19]
Pakistan:
Pakistan's first nuclear tests were made in May 1998, when six warheads were tested under codename Chagai-I and Chagai-II. It is reported that the yields from these tests were 12 kt, 30 to 36 kt and four low-yield (below 1 kt) tests. From these tests Pakistan can be estimated to have developed operational warheads of 20 to 25 kt and 150 kt in the shape of low weight compact designs and may have 300–500 kt[87] large-size warheads. The low-yield weapons are probably in nuclear bombs carried on fighter-bombers such as the Dassault Mirage III and fitted to Pakistan's short-range ballistic missiles, while the higher-yield warheads are probably fitted to the Shaheen series and Ghauri series ballistic missiles.[87]

...

According to a U.S. congressional report, Pakistan has addressed issues of survivability in a possible nuclear conflict through second strike capability. Pakistan has been dealing with efforts to develop new weapons and at the same time, have a strategy for surviving a nuclear war. Pakistan has built hard and deeply buried storage and launch facilities to retain a second strike capability in a nuclear war.[88]


...

Pakistani engineers are also said to be in the advance stages of developing MIRV technology for its missiles. This would allow the military to fit several warheads on the same ballistic missile and then launch them at separate targets.[91]

Bear in mind the size of Israel and the redundancy of the Cold War stockpiles of the US and USSR. Pakistan doesn't have a cutting-edge program able to destroy the world 20 times over and end civilization, but their arsenal could effectively destroy Israel. Not that they have any reason to do that.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

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Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
Then why is Israel so fixated on attacking Iran to prevent their construction of a nuclear weapon if its no big deal?
Other than Iran's real leadership giving off all appearances of being corrupt thugs. I don't know why the Israelis would fear them. After all they love thier lives in Qum and could hardly be expected to give up their lives to kill all the Jews. Israel has nothing to worry about directly from Iranian nukes. The indirect effects of intimidation would have some effect but are largely countered by the Arab Sunnis having nukes.

Anyway some numbers from wikipedia, just for quick context:

Israel:
2010– According to Jane's Defense Weekly Israel has between 100 and 300 nuclear warheads, most of them are probably being kept in unassembled mode but can become fully functional "in a matter of days".[114]
2010– "More than 100 weapons, mainly two-stage thermonuclear devices, capable of being delivered by missile, fighter-bomber, or submarine"[19]
Pakistan:
Pakistan's first nuclear tests were made in May 1998, when six warheads were tested under codename Chagai-I and Chagai-II. It is reported that the yields from these tests were 12 kt, 30 to 36 kt and four low-yield (below 1 kt) tests. From these tests Pakistan can be estimated to have developed operational warheads of 20 to 25 kt and 150 kt in the shape of low weight compact designs and may have 300–500 kt[87] large-size warheads. The low-yield weapons are probably in nuclear bombs carried on fighter-bombers such as the Dassault Mirage III and fitted to Pakistan's short-range ballistic missiles, while the higher-yield warheads are probably fitted to the Shaheen series and Ghauri series ballistic missiles.[87]

...

According to a U.S. congressional report, Pakistan has addressed issues of survivability in a possible nuclear conflict through second strike capability. Pakistan has been dealing with efforts to develop new weapons and at the same time, have a strategy for surviving a nuclear war. Pakistan has built hard and deeply buried storage and launch facilities to retain a second strike capability in a nuclear war.[88]


...

Pakistani engineers are also said to be in the advance stages of developing MIRV technology for its missiles. This would allow the military to fit several warheads on the same ballistic missile and then launch them at separate targets.[91]

Bear in mind the size of Israel and the redundancy of the Cold War stockpiles of the US and USSR. Pakistan doesn't have a cutting-edge program able to destroy the world 20 times over and end civilization, but their arsenal could effectively destroy Israel. Not that they have any reason to do that.
Thanks interesting info.

Also with 100 thermo nuclear war heads Israel could destroy 100 cities. Even the great metro area of the top 100 cities. Not that they would have any reason to. So basically it becomes a nuclear mexican stand off

IHQr0HCIN2w
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
Then why is Israel so fixated on attacking Iran to prevent their construction of a nuclear weapon if its no big deal?
Other than Iran's real leadership giving off all appearances of being corrupt thugs.
Israeli and Iranian leadership is fairly similar. Israel is a violently repressive and racist state, Iran is a violent and repressive theocracy. Both Iran and Israel talk about attacking one another openly. The only difference is that Israel has attacked or invaded other countries several times in recent history, whereas Iran has not, and Israel has a nuclear arsenal, whereas Iran does not.


Israel has nothing to worry about directly from Iranian nukes.
That's not what Netanyahu has been saying for a decade.




Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Bear in mind the size of Israel and the redundancy of the Cold War stockpiles of the US and USSR. Pakistan doesn't have a cutting-edge program able to destroy the world 20 times over and end civilization, but their arsenal could effectively destroy Israel. Not that they have any reason to do that.

...
Also with 100 thermo nuclear war heads Israel could destroy 100 cities. Even the great metro area of the top 100 cities. Not that they would have any reason to. So basically it becomes a nuclear mexican stand off
Sure. I was only responding to this statement.
Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
Then why is Israel so fixated on attacking Iran to prevent their construction of a nuclear weapon if its no big deal?
Other than Iran's real leadership giving off all appearances of being corrupt thugs.
Israeli and Iranian leadership is fairly similar. Israel is a violently repressive and racist state, Iran is a violent and repressive theocracy. Both Iran and Israel talk about attacking one another openly. The only difference is that Israel has attacked or invaded other countries several times in recent history, whereas Iran has not, and Israel has a nuclear arsenal, whereas Iran does not.
Questions have more Iranians died by external attacks or at the hands of their own government?


Israel has nothing to worry about directly from Iranian nukes.
That's not what Netanyahu has been saying for a decade.
Netanyahu always did talk to much.




Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Bear in mind the size of Israel and the redundancy of the Cold War stockpiles of the US and USSR. Pakistan doesn't have a cutting-edge program able to destroy the world 20 times over and end civilization, but their arsenal could effectively destroy Israel. Not that they have any reason to do that.

...
Also with 100 thermo nuclear war heads Israel could destroy 100 cities. Even the great metro area of the top 100 cities. Not that they would have any reason to. So basically it becomes a nuclear mexican stand off
Sure. I was only responding to this statement.
Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
[/quote]

Did you like the video? It is hilarious.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
Then why is Israel so fixated on attacking Iran to prevent their construction of a nuclear weapon if its no big deal?
Other than Iran's real leadership giving off all appearances of being corrupt thugs.
Israeli and Iranian leadership is fairly similar. Israel is a violently repressive and racist state, Iran is a violent and repressive theocracy. Both Iran and Israel talk about attacking one another openly. The only difference is that Israel has attacked or invaded other countries several times in recent history, whereas Iran has not, and Israel has a nuclear arsenal, whereas Iran does not.
Questions have more Iranians died by external attacks or at the hands of their own government?

External attacks. 400-500 thousand died in the Iran-Iraq war alone, in which the US openly backed the Iraqi government and the Reagan administration covertly sold arms to Iran. The Iranian regime is oppressive, but is it more oppressive than the Western-backed Shah's regime that preceded it? Not likely.

Also, to whom are you assigning the Palestinians who are killed indiscriminately by the Israeli government and military? If you consider those "foreign," even though they were ethnically cleansed from the land currently constitution Israel, then the tally for Israeli foreign wars becomes even larger. If you consider them domestic, i.e. Gaza and the West Bank are "part of Israel," then Israeli domestic repression and bloodshed is as bad or worse than Iranian state repression, which is pretty bad.


Israel has nothing to worry about directly from Iranian nukes.
That's not what Netanyahu has been saying for a decade.
Netanyahu always did talk to much.
Yep.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:But don't worry so much about Israel. Israel will be the most wanted ally in the ME. After all we are talking about the Saidis and Pakistans having Atomic bombs where Israel has Hydrogen bombs. And a lot of them. Plus systems to shoot down Ballistic Missiles
Then why is Israel so fixated on attacking Iran to prevent their construction of a nuclear weapon if its no big deal?
Other than Iran's real leadership giving off all appearances of being corrupt thugs.
Israeli and Iranian leadership is fairly similar. Israel is a violently repressive and racist state, Iran is a violent and repressive theocracy. Both Iran and Israel talk about attacking one another openly. The only difference is that Israel has attacked or invaded other countries several times in recent history, whereas Iran has not, and Israel has a nuclear arsenal, whereas Iran does not.
Questions have more Iranians died by external attacks or at the hands of their own government?

External attacks. 400-500 thousand died in the Iran-Iraq war alone, in which the US openly backed the Iraqi government and the Reagan administration covertly sold arms to Iran. The Iranian regime is oppressive, but is it more oppressive than the Western-backed Shah's regime that preceded it? Not likely.

Also, to whom are you assigning the Palestinians who are killed indiscriminately by the Israeli government and military? If you consider those "foreign," even though they were ethnically cleansed from the land currently constitution Israel, then the tally for Israeli foreign wars becomes even larger. If you consider them domestic, i.e. Gaza and the West Bank are "part of Israel," then Israeli domestic repression and bloodshed is as bad or worse than Iranian state repression, which is pretty bad.
Ibrahim sorry but on this you have to stick with the facts
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,617,000, representing 20.5% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8][9][10][11]

Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[12] They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.[13]
There are no rockets being hurled into Iran on a very regular basis. And Iran lost more than a million in the war Saddam started against Iran. A dictator who you have more than repeatedly wailed and moan about the US removing. Not to mention the estimate 100's of thousands of boy marched into mines fields to clear them with their bodies by Khomeni to stop Saddam's army.

The Palestinians that left the state of Israel did so because they did not want to live under Israeli rule. Not because the Israelis forced them out. Given that the Objective not only of Hamas but the PLO as well is to drive the Jews into the sea.(what would you call that? Getting rid of the monkey men?) the Israelis have been pretty magnanimous in victory in the treatment of Palestinians in Israel proper. You might have someone about the settlement but clearly you said "cleared from the land CONSTITUTING ISRAEL" even though you mis-spelled "constituting"


Israel has nothing to worry about directly from Iranian nukes.
That's not what Netanyahu has been saying for a decade.
Netanyahu always did talk to much.
Yep.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Israeli and Iranian leadership is fairly similar. Israel is a violently repressive and racist state, Iran is a violent and repressive theocracy. Both Iran and Israel talk about attacking one another openly. The only difference is that Israel has attacked or invaded other countries several times in recent history, whereas Iran has not, and Israel has a nuclear arsenal, whereas Iran does not.
Questions have more Iranians died by external attacks or at the hands of their own government?

External attacks. 400-500 thousand died in the Iran-Iraq war alone, in which the US openly backed the Iraqi government and the Reagan administration covertly sold arms to Iran. The Iranian regime is oppressive, but is it more oppressive than the Western-backed Shah's regime that preceded it? Not likely.

Also, to whom are you assigning the Palestinians who are killed indiscriminately by the Israeli government and military? If you consider those "foreign," even though they were ethnically cleansed from the land currently constitution Israel, then the tally for Israeli foreign wars becomes even larger. If you consider them domestic, i.e. Gaza and the West Bank are "part of Israel," then Israeli domestic repression and bloodshed is as bad or worse than Iranian state repression, which is pretty bad.
Ibrahim sorry but on this you have to stick with the facts
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,617,000, representing 20.5% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8][9][10][11]

Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[12] They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.[13]
I always stick to the facts. What facts that I stated previously do you believe are contradicted by this quote above? If you want to know how Ashkenazi Israelis treat the Arab Israeli population I've got a book or two you should read. As for Palestinian Jews and Christians in Gaza and the West Bank? They are shot or bombed with impunity. Not to mention that Likudniks and further-right parties consider that land to be part of "Greater Israel," which is to be ethnically cleansed and annexed in the future.

There are no rockets being hurled into Iran on a very regular basis.
Israel assassinated Iranian nuclear scientists are tried to disrupt their nuclear infrastructure with a computer virus and is agitating the international community for greater sanctions and and attack on Iran to disrupt the nuclear program. In any case the feeble counterattacks against Israeli aggression by Hamas hardly justify the massive retaliation against civilians that Israel boasts of as "collective punishment," not to mention that the entire state is founded on ethnic cleansing.
And Iran lost more than a million in the war Saddam started against Iran.
Started and prosecuted with US blessing and aid. And the number is from wikipedia, so if you have more accurate numbers I'd be interested to see them.
105,000–375,000 killed[8][18][20][21][22]
400,000 WIA[21]
70,000 POW[11][21]
100,000+ civilians killed on both sides[23]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War

A dictator who you have more than repeatedly wailed and moan about the US removing.
False. I only spoke of the fact that the Bush II administration lied about its justification for the war, and the US troops committed war crimes during their occupation of Iraq. Though I do like the idea that complaining about the torture, rape, and murder of civilians by American soldiers is dismissed as "wailing." You're the second person to say this. I wonder if you'd "wail" if your children were raped and murdered by American soldiers?

Not to mention the estimate 100's of thousands of boy marched into mines fields to clear them with their bodies by Khomeni to stop Saddam's army.
Do you have a citation for that number? Because it is clearly inflated. Which is not to defend the Khomeini regime, which is just as enthusiastic about murdering children as the Iraqi, Israeli, or American forces.

The Palestinians that left the state of Israel did so because they did not want to live under Israeli rule. Not because the Israelis forced them out.
A complete falsehood. They were forced out as part of a deliberate ethnic cleansing policy in 1948, reaching right up to Ben Gurion himself. The bulk of them fled the war as refugees, expecting to be able to return afterwards, but were prevented from doing so by Israeli forces. The second largest group were forcibly expelled, and there were also some number who refused to remain in their mostly-deserted villages. This is how most non-Israeli, non-Zionist historians describe events. Pro-Zionist historiography flips this around, so most left willingly, a few were refugees, and a tiny few were expelled by accident. This last group are still not permitted to return.

Note that a popular motif in the "right of return" movement is to keep and display the keys to their homes, which they fled or were removed from in 1948, and which are now occupied by Israeli Jews.

Note also that the Zionist version falls flat on its face for purely logical reasons. If they chose to leave, why have they always demanded the right to return?



Given that the Objective not only of Hamas but the PLO as well is to drive the Jews into the sea.
The objective of the Likudnik government is to completely remove all Arabs from Israel, and in the interim to deny Arabs all access to Israeli public and political life. So essentially what you are pointing out is that Hamas and Netanyahu are the same. Which they are. Of course that leads to the question of why you support one group of child-murdering terrorists and not the other?

I suggest this book, if you want some firsthand accounts of what's happening in Israel today:
http://www.amazon.ca/Goliath-Life-Loath ... blumenthal


he Israelis have been pretty magnanimous in victory in the treatment of Palestinians in Israel proper.
They murder and terrorize them in both Gaza, the West Bank, and those still residing in Israel. Palestinian children are pelted with rocks by Israeli settlers while the police/IDF watch and laugh, villages of people who have lived in the Negev for centuries are demolished in order to build new settlements for Ashkenazi immigrants. Do you really have any clue what's going on there? Have you tried to find out?
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Israeli and Iranian leadership is fairly similar. Israel is a violently repressive and racist state, Iran is a violent and repressive theocracy. Both Iran and Israel talk about attacking one another openly. The only difference is that Israel has attacked or invaded other countries several times in recent history, whereas Iran has not, and Israel has a nuclear arsenal, whereas Iran does not.
Questions have more Iranians died by external attacks or at the hands of their own government?

External attacks. 400-500 thousand died in the Iran-Iraq war alone, in which the US openly backed the Iraqi government and the Reagan administration covertly sold arms to Iran. The Iranian regime is oppressive, but is it more oppressive than the Western-backed Shah's regime that preceded it? Not likely.

Also, to whom are you assigning the Palestinians who are killed indiscriminately by the Israeli government and military? If you consider those "foreign," even though they were ethnically cleansed from the land currently constitution Israel, then the tally for Israeli foreign wars becomes even larger. If you consider them domestic, i.e. Gaza and the West Bank are "part of Israel," then Israeli domestic repression and bloodshed is as bad or worse than Iranian state repression, which is pretty bad.
Ibrahim sorry but on this you have to stick with the facts
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,617,000, representing 20.5% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8][9][10][11]

Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[12] They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.[13]
I always stick to the facts. What facts that I stated previously do you believe are contradicted by this quote above? ]/quote]

Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
If you want to know how Ashkenazi Israelis treat the Arab Israeli population I've got a book or two you should read. As for Palestinian Jews and Christians in Gaza and the West Bank? They are shot or bombed with impunity. Not to mention that Likudniks and further-right parties consider that land to be part of "Greater Israel," which is to be ethnically cleansed and annexed in the future.
Ibrahim I am sure SURe you have lots of books that say lots of things. But the fact that 20% of the population of Israel is Arab is indisputable. That many Arabs left proper Israel by their own choice rather than at the point of a gun is pretty much the same. Throwing around the term ethnic cleansing is in fact racist in the sense that it lessons the injustice done to those that really suffered ethnic cleansing. Like the Bosnians who were rounded up and shot in amsse if they were males over the age of 11 and sent to serbian recreation camps to serve as sex slaves if they were women over the age of what 12 or 14 years?

Are you accusing the state of Israel of doing things like that in Israel?

There are no rockets being hurled into Iran on a very regular basis.
Israel assassinated Iranian nuclear scientists are tried to disrupt their nuclear infrastructure with a computer virus and is agitating the international community for greater sanctions and and attack on Iran to disrupt the nuclear program. In any case the feeble counterattacks against Israeli aggression by Hamas hardly justify the massive retaliation against civilians that Israel boasts of as "collective punishment," not to mention that the entire state is founded on ethnic cleansing.


Were these attacks on Iranian civilians as a whole ? Did Israeli say it was going to wipe Iran off the face of the earth? And again you use of ethnic cleansing has little to do with reality in Israel proper as you initially claimed.
And Iran lost more than a million in the war Saddam started against Iran.
Started and prosecuted with US blessing and aid.
In your opinion from your link below
Iraqi preparations

Iraq began planning offensives, confident that they would succeed. Iran lacked both cohesive leadership and spare parts for their American-made equipment. Iraq, on the other hand, possessed a fully equipped and trained modern military, consisting of 190,000 men, 2,200 tanks, and 450 aircraft. The Iraqis could mobilise up to 12 mechanised divisions, and morale was running high. Through the 1970s, Saddam had armed his forces with the most advanced material available from the Soviet Union.[49]

In addition, the area around the Shatt al-Arab posed no obstacle for the Iraqis, as they were armed with Soviet equipment to cross rivers. Iraq correctly deduced that Iran's defences at the crossing points around the Kharkeh and Karoun Rivers were undermanned and that the rivers could be easily crossed. Iraqi intelligence was also informed that the Iranian forces in Khuzestan (which consisted of two divisions prior to the revolution) now only consisted of several ill-equipped battalions. Only a handful of company-sized tank units remained operational.[49]

The only qualms the Iraqis had were over the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (formerly the Imperial Iranian Air Force). Despite the purge of several key pilots and commanders as well as the lack of spare parts, the air force showed its power during local uprisings and rebellions. They were also active after the failed U.S. attempt to rescue its hostages, Operation Eagle Claw. As such, Iraq's leaders decided to carry out a surprise airstrike against the Iranian air force's infrastructure prior to the main invasion.[49]
And the number is from wikipedia, so if you have more accurate numbers I'd be interested to see them.
105,000–375,000 killed[8][18][20][21][22]
400,000 WIA[21]
70,000 POW[11][21]
100,000+ civilians killed on both sides[23]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War


Hmmm strange I looked through the article and don't see your table Ibby but I do see this is the fourth paragraph
The war cost both sides in lives and economic damage: half a million Iraqi and Iranian soldiers, with an equivalent number of civilians, are believed to have died, with many more injured;
That number is far higher than what you claimed the wiki at the link says. Perhaps you got those numbers from one of the many books you mention you have??

Anyhow In light of your comment that you always stick to the facts perhaps you would like to address the discrepancy???

A dictator who you have more than repeatedly wailed and moan about the US removing.
False. I only spoke of the fact that the Bush II administration lied about its justification for the war, and the US troops committed war crimes during their occupation of Iraq. Though I do like the idea that complaining about the torture, rape, and murder of civilians by American soldiers is dismissed as "wailing." You're the second person to say this. I wonder if you'd "wail" if your children were raped and murdered by American soldiers?
And you won't even watch a youtube video about Iraq :evil:

nTLIS6oOuRY

BTW Thanks again for the opportunity to plug it again
Not to mention the estimate 100's of thousands of boy marched into mines fields to clear them with their bodies by Khomeni to stop Saddam's army.
Do you have a citation for that number? Because it is clearly inflated. Which is not to defend the Khomeini regime, which is just as enthusiastic about murdering children as the Iraqi, Israeli, or American forces.
yeah right here:

nTLIS6oOuRY

;) :D

The Palestinians that left the state of Israel did so because they did not want to live under Israeli rule. Not because the Israelis forced them out.
A complete falsehood.
No it is not. Do you actually know any palistinians let alone any that were actually there?

They were forced out as part of a deliberate ethnic cleansing policy in 1948, reaching right up to Ben Gurion himself. The bulk of them fled the war as refugees, expecting to be able to return afterwards, but were prevented from doing so by Israeli forces. The second largest group were forcibly expelled, and there were also some number who refused to remain in their mostly-deserted villages. This is how most non-Israeli, non-Zionist historians describe events. Pro-Zionist historiography flips this around, so most left willingly, a few were refugees, and a tiny few were expelled by accident. This last group are still not permitted to return.

Note that a popular motif in the "right of return" movement is to keep and display the keys to their homes, which they fled or were removed from in 1948, and which are now occupied by Israeli Jews.

Note also that the Zionist version falls flat on its face for purely logical reasons. If they chose to leave, why have they always demanded the right to return?
I donno maybe they did not want to live under "Zionist occupation"



Given that the Objective not only of Hamas but the PLO as well is to drive the Jews into the sea.
The objective of the Likudnik government is to completely remove all Arabs from Israel, and in the interim to deny Arabs all access to Israeli public and political life. So essentially what you are pointing out is that Hamas and Netanyahu are the same. Which they are. Of course that leads to the question of why you support one group of child-murdering terrorists and not the other?
I don't support child murdering terrorists of any kind What is your excuse for supporting them? LIke Saddam toturing children in front of their parents?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/f ... 058253.stm
Saturday, 22 June, 2002, 11:26 GMT 12:26 UK
Iraq's tortured children
Saddam Hussein and his advisers
Some witnesses had direct experience of child torture


By John Sweeney
BBC correspondent in Iraq

The star witness against the government of Iraq hobbled into the room, her legs braced with clumsy metal callipers. "Anna" had been tortured two years ago. She is now four years old.

Her father, Ali, is a thick-set Iraqi who used to work for Saddam's psychopathic son, Uday. Some time after the bungled assassination of Uday, Ali fell under suspicion.
Saddam Hussein
Saddam's secret police have been accused of torturing children

He fled north, to the Kurdish safe haven policed by Western fighter planes, but leaving his wife and daughter behind in Baghdad.

So the secret police came for his wife. Where is he? They tortured her. And when she didn't break, they tortured his daughter.

"When did you last see your father? Has he phoned? Has he been in contact?" They half-crushed the toddler's feet.

Now, she doesn't walk, she hobbles, and Ali fears that Saddam's men have crippled his daughter for life. So Ali talked to us.

I have been to Baghdad a number of times. Being in Iraq is like creeping around inside someone else's migraine. The fear is so omnipresent you could almost eat it. No one talks.

So listening to Ali speak freely was a revelation. He is not exactly a contender to be the next Archbishop of Canterbury.

He has the heft of an enforcer. He told me that he had tortured for the regime. But I don't think he was lying to us.

'Faked funerals'

Ali talked about the paranoid frenzy that rules Baghdad - the tortures, the killings, the corruption, the crazy gangster violence of Saddam and his two sons.

And the faking of the mass baby funerals.

You may have seen them on TV. Small white coffins parading through the streets of Baghdad on the roofs of taxis, an angry crowd of mourners, condemning Western sanctions for killing the children of Iraq.


They used to collect children's bodies and put them in freezers for two, three or even six or seven months

Usefully, the ages of the dead babies - "three days old", "four days old" - are written in English on the coffins. I wonder who did that.

Ali gave us the inside track on the racket. There aren't enough dead babies around. So the regime stores them for a mass funeral.

He said that he was friends with a taxi driver - he gave his name - whose son had a position in the regime.

Ali continued, he told me that he had to go to Najaf - a town 160km (100 miles) from Baghdad - in order to bring children's bodies from various freezers there, and that the smell was unbearable.

They used to collect children's bodies and put them in freezers for two, three or even six or seven months - God knows - until the smell got unbearable.

Then, they arrange the mass funerals. The logic being, the more dead babies, the better for Saddam. That way, he can weaken public support in the West for sanctions.

That means that parents who have lost a baby can't bury it until the regime says so.

So how could it be that people would put up with this sickening exploitation of grief?

A murder story

Ali told another story. He had seen Uday kill with his own eyes. This was some years ago, before the assassination attempt left Saddam's oldest son half-paralysed and impotent.

Uday's lust is famous in Baghdad. He wanted a woman who played tennis at Baghdad's Sports Club and he and Ali went round to the club.

Uday Hussein
A witness saw Saddam Hussein's son, Uday, murder another man
As Uday was turning into the car park, a tennis ball came over the fence and bounced against the car of the woman he desired.

The tennis player came into the car park to retrieve the ball, apologised to the woman. Maybe there was a bit of flirting - that does happen at tennis courts, even in England.

From his car Uday watched the two of them. Enraged, he took out a wooden cosh and beat the tennis player's brains out.

And then - get this - a few days later, the dead man's relatives apologised to Uday for the distress their son had caused him.

Incredible? I don't think so.

In northern Iraq - the only part of the country where people can speak freely - we met six other witnesses who had direct experience of child torture, including another of Saddam's enforcers - now in a Kurdish prison - who told us that an interrogator could do anything:

"We could make a kebab out of the child if we wanted to." And then he chuckled.

Iraqi women protest against UN sanctions
Angry crowds of mourners condemn the West's sanctions
In that environment, with that background noise of fear, it is not impossible to imagine that the government of Iraq could have conned the world, inventing numbers of dead babies that the gullible - and that includes the United Nations - accept as reliable.

While we were in the north of Iraq, the chairman of the Great Britain Iraq Society, Labour MP George Galloway, was in Baghdad.

He popped up on Iraqi TV and bared his soul. "When I hear the word Iraq," he said, "I hear someone calling my name."

I don't. When I hear the word Iraq, I hear a tortured child, screaming.
Oh that's right you are a denier of what Saddam did.

I suggest this book, if you want some firsthand accounts of what's happening in Israel today:
http://www.amazon.ca/Goliath-Life-Loath ... blumenthal[/quote]

I don't approve of a lot of what's happening in the world including Israel. I am well aware of a lot that goes on. If it is wrong it is wrong. It does not matter where or who is wrong. Unlike your view of the world

nTLIS6oOuRY




he Israelis have been pretty magnanimous in victory in the treatment of Palestinians in Israel proper.
They murder and terrorize them in both Gaza, the West Bank, and those still residing in Israel.
You are ridiculous. I can agree maybe in the first two cases but I am sure not in the simpleton way you present it and probably think of it. In the latter no way. There are people Israeli Jews that don't want Arabs in Israeli but if they act on their feelings they go to jail. If a Palestinian harms a Jews then he is a Hero to Palestine.
Palestinian children are pelted with rocks by Israeli settlers while the police/IDF watch and laugh, villages of people who have lived in the Negev for centuries are demolished in order to build new settlements for Ashkenazi immigrants. Do you really have any clue what's going on there? Have you tried to find out?
By definition Israeli Settlers are not in Israel proper. :roll:
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.

If you want to know how Ashkenazi Israelis treat the Arab Israeli population I've got a book or two you should read. As for Palestinian Jews and Christians in Gaza and the West Bank? They are shot or bombed with impunity. Not to mention that Likudniks and further-right parties consider that land to be part of "Greater Israel," which is to be ethnically cleansed and annexed in the future.
Ibrahim I am sure SURe you have lots of books that say lots of things.
Touche?


But the fact that 20% of the population of Israel is Arab is indisputable.
Not in dispute here. Neither is their systematic harassment, denial of democratic rights, and repression by the Israeli Jewish majority.

That many Arabs left proper Israel by their own choice rather than at the point of a gun is pretty much the same.
:lol: Do you consider leaving your own house by choice or at gunpoint "pretty much the same?"


Throwing around the term ethnic cleansing is in fact racist in the sense that it lessons the injustice done to those that really suffered ethnic cleansing.
Ridiculous. The majority of the Arab population was removed from, or at best prevented from returning to, Israel and your big defense of that is that they didn't successfully complete the ethnic cleansing, and then to say that its somehow offensive to point out historical facts?

Like the Bosnians who were rounded up and shot in amsse if they were males over the age of 11 and sent to serbian recreation camps to serve as sex slaves if they were women over the age of what 12 or 14 years?

Are you accusing the state of Israel of doing things like that in Israel?
The Israelis have murdered many Palestinian Arab civilians, and the rape of Arab women during the 1948 war is also a matter of record. One Israeli veteran turned journalist bragged about it in his memoir. Its in the Blumenthal book, you can look it up. As for murdering civilians, Israeli forces have done plenty of that, so I'm not sure how many murdered civilians you need for it to pass your personal test. "They can murder 1000 children, but not 1500. That's too many."

Israel assassinated Iranian nuclear scientists are tried to disrupt their nuclear infrastructure with a computer virus and is agitating the international community for greater sanctions and and attack on Iran to disrupt the nuclear program. In any case the feeble counterattacks against Israeli aggression by Hamas hardly justify the massive retaliation against civilians that Israel boasts of as "collective punishment," not to mention that the entire state is founded on ethnic cleansing.


Were these attacks on Iranian civilians as a whole ? Did Israeli say it was going to wipe Iran off the face of the earth?
They attacked Iran, and they kill large numbers of Palestinian civilians that they have already trapped in de facto concentration camps. If you are interested in the genocidal racist rhetoric that Israeli Knesset members use towards Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular then you can find scores of examples in the book I recommended or the video I recently posted in the Israel thread.


And Iran lost more than a million in the war Saddam started against Iran.
Started and prosecuted with US blessing and aid.
In your opinion from your link below
Iraqi preparations

Iraq began planning offensives, confident that they would succeed. Iran lacked both cohesive leadership and spare parts for their American-made equipment. Iraq, on the other hand, possessed a fully equipped and trained modern military, consisting of 190,000 men, 2,200 tanks, and 450 aircraft. The Iraqis could mobilise up to 12 mechanised divisions, and morale was running high. Through the 1970s, Saddam had armed his forces with the most advanced material available from the Soviet Union.[49]

In addition, the area around the Shatt al-Arab posed no obstacle for the Iraqis, as they were armed with Soviet equipment to cross rivers. Iraq correctly deduced that Iran's defences at the crossing points around the Kharkeh and Karoun Rivers were undermanned and that the rivers could be easily crossed. Iraqi intelligence was also informed that the Iranian forces in Khuzestan (which consisted of two divisions prior to the revolution) now only consisted of several ill-equipped battalions. Only a handful of company-sized tank units remained operational.[49]

The only qualms the Iraqis had were over the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (formerly the Imperial Iranian Air Force). Despite the purge of several key pilots and commanders as well as the lack of spare parts, the air force showed its power during local uprisings and rebellions. They were also active after the failed U.S. attempt to rescue its hostages, Operation Eagle Claw. As such, Iraq's leaders decided to carry out a surprise airstrike against the Iranian air force's infrastructure prior to the main invasion.[49]
You're making a couple of funny mistakes here. First, you don't seem to realize that the Iranian military was supplied during the Shah era, and no longer had technical support, and that the US was backing Iraq financially to spite Iran following their revolution, and those funds could, and were, used to buy Soviet-made equipment. The US has supplied Soviet-made equipment on a number of occasions, most famously to the Afghan mujahedeen vs. the Soviets themselves. Its cute that you think nations can only supply arms of their own manufacture.

Image



And the number is from wikipedia, so if you have more accurate numbers I'd be interested to see them.
105,000–375,000 killed[8][18][20][21][22]
400,000 WIA[21]
70,000 POW[11][21]
100,000+ civilians killed on both sides[23]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Iraq_War

Hmmm strange I looked through the article and don't see your table Ibby but I do see this is the fourth paragraph
Its in the box to the right at the top of the page under "Casualties and Losses." You can follow the citations to their links for even greater detail.


That number is far higher than what you claimed the wiki at the link says. Perhaps you got those numbers from one of the many books you mention you have?
Learn to read the web page, don't falsely accuse me of lying, and provide a better source if you have one.

Anyhow In light of your comment that you always stick to the facts perhaps you would like to address the discrepancy?
Your inability to read a web page.


A dictator who you have more than repeatedly wailed and moan about the US removing.
False. I only spoke of the fact that the Bush II administration lied about its justification for the war, and the US troops committed war crimes during their occupation of Iraq. Though I do like the idea that complaining about the torture, rape, and murder of civilians by American soldiers is dismissed as "wailing." You're the second person to say this. I wonder if you'd "wail" if your children were raped and murdered by American soldiers?
And you won't even watch a youtube video about Iraq
I've read and watched enough about the tortures, rapes and murders conducted by your soldiers.



Do you have a citation for that number? Because it is clearly inflated. Which is not to defend the Khomeini regime, which is just as enthusiastic about murdering children as the Iraqi, Israeli, or American forces.
yeah right here:
No evidence provided by Doc.




They were forced out as part of a deliberate ethnic cleansing policy in 1948, reaching right up to Ben Gurion himself. The bulk of them fled the war as refugees, expecting to be able to return afterwards, but were prevented from doing so by Israeli forces. The second largest group were forcibly expelled, and there were also some number who refused to remain in their mostly-deserted villages. This is how most non-Israeli, non-Zionist historians describe events. Pro-Zionist historiography flips this around, so most left willingly, a few were refugees, and a tiny few were expelled by accident. This last group are still not permitted to return.

Note that a popular motif in the "right of return" movement is to keep and display the keys to their homes, which they fled or were removed from in 1948, and which are now occupied by Israeli Jews.

Note also that the Zionist version falls flat on its face for purely logical reasons. If they chose to leave, why have they always demanded the right to return?
I donno maybe they did not want to live under "Zionist occupation"
Re-read the paragraph you are replying to and see if you can frame a coherent response.



The objective of the Likudnik government is to completely remove all Arabs from Israel, and in the interim to deny Arabs all access to Israeli public and political life. So essentially what you are pointing out is that Hamas and Netanyahu are the same. Which they are. Of course that leads to the question of why you support one group of child-murdering terrorists and not the other?
I don't support child murdering terrorists of any kind What is your excuse for supporting them? LIke Saddam toturing children in front of their parents?

Your response is a transparent falsehood. I never defended Saddam Hussein. I only object to the war crimes committed against Iraqi civilians by the US military.


Oh that's right you are a denier of what Saddam did.
A disgusting falsehood. Substantiate this smear or apologize.

I suggest this book, if you want some firsthand accounts of what's happening in Israel today:
http://www.amazon.ca/Goliath-Life-Loath ... blumenthal
I don't approve of a lot of what's happening in the world including Israel. I am well aware of a lot that goes on. If it is wrong it is wrong. It does not matter where or who is wrong. Unlike your view of the world
Try to prove your false claim. What wrongs have I endorsed?








They murder and terrorize them in both Gaza, the West Bank, and those still residing in Israel.
You are ridiculous. I can agree maybe in the first two cases but I am sure not in the simpleton way you present it and probably think of it. In the latter no way. There are people Israeli Jews that don't want Arabs in Israeli but if they act on their feelings they go to jail.
False. They are elected to the Knesset. Avigdor Lieberman, for example, boasts of his violent actions towards Arabs, and he's a cabinet minister.



Palestinian children are pelted with rocks by Israeli settlers while the police/IDF watch and laugh, villages of people who have lived in the Negev for centuries are demolished in order to build new settlements for Ashkenazi immigrants. Do you really have any clue what's going on there? Have you tried to find out?
By definition Israeli Settlers are not in Israel proper.
Not according to the settlers. But I actually meant to refer to ultrazionists in this case, as attacks on Bedouin in the Negev are common, especially children. They support settlers and often are settlers, but when they are tormenting Arabs in Israeli territory I suppose they aren't technically settlers at that moment. So that's one for you.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.
Shame on you Ibrahim
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.
Shame on you Ibrahim

Your previous post is full of dishonest smears and you've provided no evidence for any of them. You're in no position to shame anyone and in fact should be apologizing for your behavior.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.
Shame on you Ibrahim

Your previous post is full of dishonest smears and you've provided no evidence for any of them. You're in no position to shame anyone and in fact should be apologizing for your behavior.

.


seconded :lol:

.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.
Shame on you Ibrahim

Your previous post is full of dishonest smears and you've provided no evidence for any of them. You're in no position to shame anyone and in fact should be apologizing for your behavior.
Again Shame on you Ibrahim
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.
Shame on you Ibrahim

Your previous post is full of dishonest smears and you've provided no evidence for any of them. You're in no position to shame anyone and in fact should be apologizing for your behavior.

.
.



seconded :lol:
Great Then I am sure that both of you will condemn the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab world !!
In 1965, Moroccan writer Said Ghallab described the attitude of his fellow Muslims toward their Jewish neighbors:

The worst insult that a Moroccan could possibly offer was to treat someone as a Jew....My childhood friends have remained anti-Jewish. They hide their virulent anti-Semitism by contending that the State of Israel was the creature of Western imperialism....A whole Hitlerite myth is being cultivated among the populace. The massacres of the Jews by Hitler are exalted ecstatically. It is even credited that Hitler is not dead, but alive and well, and his arrival is awaited to deliver the Arabs from Israel.3
Well do you? :roll:
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.
Shame on you Ibrahim

Your previous post is full of dishonest smears and you've provided no evidence for any of them. You're in no position to shame anyone and in fact should be apologizing for your behavior.

.
.



seconded :lol:
Great Then I am sure that both of you will condemn the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab world !!
In 1965, Moroccan writer Said Ghallab described the attitude of his fellow Muslims toward their Jewish neighbors:

The worst insult that a Moroccan could possibly offer was to treat someone as a Jew....My childhood friends have remained anti-Jewish. They hide their virulent anti-Semitism by contending that the State of Israel was the creature of Western imperialism....A whole Hitlerite myth is being cultivated among the populace. The massacres of the Jews by Hitler are exalted ecstatically. It is even credited that Hitler is not dead, but alive and well, and his arrival is awaited to deliver the Arabs from Israel.3
Well do you? :roll:


.


:lol: :lol:



thanx, DOC, bringing that subject of Jews in Arab world AFTER establishment of Zionist entity called Israel

Hebrew tribe was in the "fabric" of Middle Eastern population.. they were Arabs of Jewish faith

Zionist, planted many bombs killing lots of Jews and non Jews in many Arab nations to agitate Jews to immigrate AND to turn Arabs against Arabs of Jewish faith .. know many Arab Jews in Israel craving to go back to Baghdad and Morocco and and

In that sense, not the Arabs but Zionists pushed the ME Jews out of their Arab homes

and

consider this

5th generation Japanese-American were striped off their assets and put in concentration camps .. they were lucky they were not gassed

come on, DOC, come on .. west has so much dirty laundry, better not shake the boat

So far not heard anything unreasonable from Ibrahim

though, he a bit rough, but, heck, that's how TURKS are

.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Yes I already pointed out that your facts weren't facts
You did no such thing. You provided no evidence that contradicted anything I said.
Shame on you Ibrahim

Your previous post is full of dishonest smears and you've provided no evidence for any of them. You're in no position to shame anyone and in fact should be apologizing for your behavior.
Again Shame on you Ibrahim

Shame on you for making false, unsubstantiated personal accusations.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:Great Then I am sure that both of you will condemn the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab world !!

A modern and unprecedented aberration in the history of the region, and a lamentable one. I condemn all harassment of religious or ethnic minorities.

It is nothing but bigotry to assume otherwise absent any evidence whatsoever.
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Great Then I am sure that both of you will condemn the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab world !!

A modern and unprecedented aberration in the history of the region,
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
and a lamentable one. I condemn all harassment of religious or ethnic minorities.

It is nothing but bigotry to assume otherwise absent any evidence whatsoever.
[/quote]

Is it? While I congratulate you on your condemnation I really do. However when it is always going in one direction it gives every appearance of being bigoted. The only ways the ME is every going to see peace is if every one drops their grudges or every one ends up dead. Remember the US no longer has much in the way of national interests in the ME.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Saudi Arabia beats Iran in nuclear arms race

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Great Then I am sure that both of you will condemn the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab world !!

A modern and unprecedented aberration in the history of the region,
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

What's that supposed to mean? Jews were living under the protection of Islamic states when European Christians were torturing and killing them for fun. Shiploads of Jews escaping the holocaust were still be turned away from Western ports in 1940 and you want to brag about your history of tolerance and celebration of Jews? All of Islamophobic propaganda boils down to this. "What awful thing did we stop doing 30-60 years ago that currently happens in some of the poorest nations on earth (that we recently invaded)? Let's trash them for that."

I'll play the history game all day.

and a lamentable one. I condemn all harassment of religious or ethnic minorities.

It is nothing but bigotry to assume otherwise absent any evidence whatsoever.
Is it? While I congratulate you on your condemnation I really do. However when it is always going in one direction it gives every appearance of being bigoted.
Baseless nonsense. I don't like the US military killing civilians so I must hate Jews? Get real.

The only ways the ME is every going to see peace is if every one drops their grudges or every one ends up dead. Remember the US no longer has much in the way of national interests in the ME.
Then stop a) backing regimes that torture/kill people in the region, and b) torturing/killing people in the region. Its a monument to nationalistic myopia that you think you're in any position to give advice on creating peace.
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