IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national security

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Doc
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IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national security

Post by Doc »

Or I was a Islamic extremist radical until I wasn't


http://video.foxnews.com/v/281636857100 ... 2779230001
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Islamist .. AND .. Muslim Brotherhood .. both .. are American creation, they American agent

Who beat USSR in Afghanistan, Islamist
Who "groomed" as alternative when the Wahhabi mafia, Al Saud, f*ck off .. Muslim Brotherhood

Well, DOC

NO

Muslim Brotherhood no thread to US, rather, an instrument of American national security

.
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Doc
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Islamist .. AND .. Muslim Brotherhood .. both .. are American creation, they American agent

Who beat USSR in Afghanistan, Islamist
Who "groomed" as alternative when the Wahhabi mafia, Al Saud, f*ck off .. Muslim Brotherhood

Well, DOC

NO

Muslim Brotherhood no thread to US, rather, an instrument of American national security

.
sure...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bro ... ted_States
United States

According to The Washington Post, U.S. Muslim Brotherhood supporters "make up the U.S. Islamic community's most organized force" by running hundreds of mosques and business ventures, promoting civic activities, and setting up American Islamic organizations to defend and promote Islam.[133] In 1963, the U.S. chapter of Muslim Brotherhood was started by activists involved with the Muslim Students Association (MSA).[11] U.S. supporters of the Brotherhood also started other organizations including: North American Islamic Trust in 1971, the Islamic Society of North America in 1981, the American Muslim Council in 1990, the Muslim American Society in 1992 and the International Institute of Islamic Thought in the 1980s.[11]

The aims of the Brotherhood in America are:

"The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.
—'An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America,' 1981[134]
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Ibrahim »

Its very debatable that those statements, produced as part of a Texas court case against a group that was fundraising for groups in Palestine, represents anything about the goals of the MB in Egypt. But even if they did, that still wouldn't make the MB a threat to the US, nor would it justify the detention/torture/murder of MB protesters and members in Egypt by the Egyptian Army.

Beyond this, there is the question of what a "threat" is and what it justifies. The US has murdered millions of innocent people on the dubious justification that they presented a "threat," and all indications are that this murder will continue. This behavior on the part of the US in response to threats real or imagines is the greatest threat to US security.
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Doc
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:Its very debatable that those statements, produced as part of a Texas court case against a group that was fundraising for groups in Palestine, represents anything about the goals of the MB in Egypt. But even if they did, that still wouldn't make the MB a threat to the US, nor would it justify the detention/torture/murder of MB protesters and members in Egypt by the Egyptian Army.
Says you. Those statements were taken from http://www.txnd.uscourts.gov/judges/hlf ... ch%203.pdf An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America,' 1981 Which was linked from the wikipedia article I posted which is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bro ... ted_States

citation here ^ "United States District Court, Northern District of Texas, "USA v. Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, ElBarasse Search-3."". US government. 9 January 2013. Retrieved 22 June 2013.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bro ... e_note-135

IE this was in the groups own words Which turned up in a search of one Ismael Selim Elbarasse's home



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Aug24.html
Va. Man Tied to Hamas Held as Witness
Annandale Resident Detained After Wife Allegedly Filmed Bay Bridge

By Eric Rich and Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 25, 2004; Page B01

Federal agents on Saturday seized hundreds of items from the home of an Annandale man allegedly tied to the radical Palestinian group Hamas after he was detained by police in Maryland, where officers said they saw his wife videotaping the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.

In searching the home and vehicle of Ismael Selim Elbarasse, authorities said they found bank records belonging to Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chief of Hamas's political wing. A federal indictment unsealed Friday in Chicago charges Marzook in an alleged conspiracy that authorities said raised millions of dollars for Hamas, which the U.S. government considers a terrorist group for carrying out bombings, kidnappings and other attacks in Israel.

Authorities said Elbarasse, 57, who was named an unindicted co-conspirator by the grand jury in Chicago, was an assistant to Marzook. He was taken into custody Friday and is being held as a material witness in the case against Marzook and two other men indicted in Chicago, one of whom is from Fairfax County.

Details of the searches of Elbarasse's home and vehicle and the circumstances of his detention by police in Maryland are contained in court documents made public in federal court in Alexandria and Baltimore.
Do note the 'your a racist country" defense is brought up as a defense:
Of the videotaping by the woman, he said: "If her name was Ginger and she had blond hair and blue eyes and was driving in a [BMW], it would not have been a problem."
Appearing with Elbarasse on Monday before Magistrate Judge Paul W. Grimm in U.S. District Court in Baltimore, defense attorney Franklin W. Draper said Elbarasse, a naturalized U.S. citizen, would have "no hesitation whatsoever to return to Chicago and appear before a grand jury."
Elbarasse was jailed for eight months in 1998 after he refused to testify in New York before a federal grand jury investigating terrorism.

At Elbarasse's home on Whistler Court, agents seized computer disks, bank records and Arabic documents, including one document titled "For Your Eyes Only -- How to Propagate Islam."

Also seized, according to court records, were copies of checks from the Dar Al-Hijra mosque in Falls Church; an Arabic CD with an "evaluation of the Jihad movement"; a piece of paper containing the address of the Norfolk Naval Station; Israeli travel documents; various "anti-Israel materials"; and documents concerning the Muslim Brotherhood, a secretive movement of political activists dedicated to restoring Islamic rule in secular Arab societies.

In addition, agents seized a document called an "anarchist cookbook" and an item referred to in court records as "Spreadsheet of trained pilots 'Law Enforcement Only.' ''

In an affidavit filed in support of the search warrant, FBI agent Shawn S. Devroude wrote that Elbarasse "is a known associate of various individuals possibly linked to terrorism." The affidavit states that the FBI has reason to believe that Elbarasse and his wife were violating federal law by providing "material" support to a foreign terrorist organization.
Ibrahim wrote:Beyond this, there is the question of what a "threat" is and what it justifies.
nTLIS6oOuRY
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Its very debatable that those statements, produced as part of a Texas court case against a group that was fundraising for groups in Palestine, represents anything about the goals of the MB in Egypt. But even if they did, that still wouldn't make the MB a threat to the US, nor would it justify the detention/torture/murder of MB protesters and members in Egypt by the Egyptian Army.
Says you. Those statements were taken from http://www.txnd.uscourts.gov/judges/hlf ... ch%203.pdf An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America,' 1981 Which was linked from the wikipedia article I posted which is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bro ... ted_States

citation here ^ "United States District Court, Northern District of Texas, "USA v. Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, ElBarasse Search-3."". US government. 9 January 2013. Retrieved 22 June 2013.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bro ... e_note-135

Yes, I checked the citation from the article, which is how I learned that it is based on documents obtained in an investigation of a small group operating in that state. It tells us literally nothing about the MB in Egypt, which incidentally has bigger problems at the moment.



IE this was in the groups own words Which turned up in a search of one Ismael Selim Elbarasse's home



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Aug24.html
Va. Man Tied to Hamas Held as Witness
Annandale Resident Detained After Wife Allegedly Filmed Bay Bridge

By Eric Rich and Jerry Markon
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 25, 2004; Page B01

Federal agents on Saturday seized hundreds of items from the home of an Annandale man allegedly tied to the radical Palestinian group Hamas after he was detained by police in Maryland, where officers said they saw his wife videotaping the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.

In searching the home and vehicle of Ismael Selim Elbarasse, authorities said they found bank records belonging to Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chief of Hamas's political wing. A federal indictment unsealed Friday in Chicago charges Marzook in an alleged conspiracy that authorities said raised millions of dollars for Hamas, which the U.S. government considers a terrorist group for carrying out bombings, kidnappings and other attacks in Israel.

Authorities said Elbarasse, 57, who was named an unindicted co-conspirator by the grand jury in Chicago, was an assistant to Marzook. He was taken into custody Friday and is being held as a material witness in the case against Marzook and two other men indicted in Chicago, one of whom is from Fairfax County.

Details of the searches of Elbarasse's home and vehicle and the circumstances of his detention by police in Maryland are contained in court documents made public in federal court in Alexandria and Baltimore.
Like I said, this group seemed to be a fundraising organization for Hamas. That's illegal in the US, but it does support the original claim that the Egyptian MB is a threat to the US.



Do note the 'your a racist country" defense is brought up as a defense:
A terrorist suspect pointing out American racism would neither prove that his actions were justified, or that America was not racist. It would prove nothing whatsoever about anything.


Appearing with Elbarasse on Monday before Magistrate Judge Paul W. Grimm in U.S. District Court in Baltimore, defense attorney Franklin W. Draper said Elbarasse, a naturalized U.S. citizen, would have "no hesitation whatsoever to return to Chicago and appear before a grand jury."
Elbarasse was jailed for eight months in 1998 after he refused to testify in New York before a federal grand jury investigating terrorism.

At Elbarasse's home on Whistler Court, agents seized computer disks, bank records and Arabic documents, including one document titled "For Your Eyes Only -- How to Propagate Islam."

Also seized, according to court records, were copies of checks from the Dar Al-Hijra mosque in Falls Church; an Arabic CD with an "evaluation of the Jihad movement"; a piece of paper containing the address of the Norfolk Naval Station; Israeli travel documents; various "anti-Israel materials"; and documents concerning the Muslim Brotherhood, a secretive movement of political activists dedicated to restoring Islamic rule in secular Arab societies.

In addition, agents seized a document called an "anarchist cookbook" and an item referred to in court records as "Spreadsheet of trained pilots 'Law Enforcement Only.' ''

In an affidavit filed in support of the search warrant, FBI agent Shawn S. Devroude wrote that Elbarasse "is a known associate of various individuals possibly linked to terrorism." The affidavit states that the FBI has reason to believe that Elbarasse and his wife were violating federal law by providing "material" support to a foreign terrorist organization.
This Elbarasse sounds like a suspicious and quite possibly criminal character. Is the point of this thread that Elbarasse belongs in jail? If so you're doing a great job.



Ibrahim wrote:Beyond this, there is the question of what a "threat" is and what it justifies.
(youtube video)

Does that video you keep linking show US soldiers torturing, raping and murdering civilians, as they are known to have done? Because currently the Egyptian military is jailing, torturing, raping and murdering MB members and other pro-democracy protesters in Egypt, and that is what this thread seems to be trying to defend and justify.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Islamist .. AND .. Muslim Brotherhood .. both .. are American creation, they American agent

Who beat USSR in Afghanistan, Islamist
Who "groomed" as alternative when the Wahhabi mafia, Al Saud, f*ck off .. Muslim Brotherhood

Well, DOC

NO

Muslim Brotherhood no thread to US, rather, an instrument of American national security

.
sure...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bro ... ted_States
United States

According to The Washington Post, U.S. Muslim Brotherhood supporters "make up the U.S. Islamic community's most organized force" by running hundreds of mosques and business ventures, promoting civic activities, and setting up American Islamic organizations to defend and promote Islam.[133] In 1963, the U.S. chapter of Muslim Brotherhood was started by activists involved with the Muslim Students Association (MSA).[11] U.S. supporters of the Brotherhood also started other organizations including: North American Islamic Trust in 1971, the Islamic Society of North America in 1981, the American Muslim Council in 1990, the Muslim American Society in 1992 and the International Institute of Islamic Thought in the 1980s.[11]

The aims of the Brotherhood in America are:

"The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.
—'An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America,' 1981[134]


.


DOC , using WiKi for explanation or proof of ongoing political events is meaningless .. WiKi is a "fabrication tool" for western policy, history makers, for fabricating "consent" .. am sure Wiki is closely affiliated, edited, authored, by NSA and western intelligence services .. it's like one asking Waffen-SS or GESTAPO what is the story and background of Mosche

For political events unfolding, WIKI worthless .. and .. even for historical facts and political events way before, 1000s of yrs B4, Wiki "more and less" worthless .. West, WiKi, wants to portray West Greek democracy and and, but does not mention Greek democracy was only for "citizen" (Vast minority) and not for the slaves (vast majority), and the Plato "The Republic" saying no such things as rule of the people rather Elite .. so, do not rely on Wiki .. WiKi is a (clever) mix of truth and lies, so that you should perceive the lies as truth, that is the aim of those who control WiKi

Only historical view and facts I would rely on Wiki is a part of Egyptian Pharaoh .. though, again, that "rubbish" of Jews and Ramses II is falsified by Zionist to make a case for usurping Palestine .. WiKi nowhere says that Ramses II day by day rule is chronicled and available in British museum, WiKi never says that Jew and Ramses a BS .. a lot of uTube clips and WiKi facts I posted yrs ago which were negative for Zionist, have disappeared

.
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Doc
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Doc »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Doc wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Islamist .. AND .. Muslim Brotherhood .. both .. are American creation, they American agent

Who beat USSR in Afghanistan, Islamist
Who "groomed" as alternative when the Wahhabi mafia, Al Saud, f*ck off .. Muslim Brotherhood

Well, DOC

NO

Muslim Brotherhood no thread to US, rather, an instrument of American national security

.
sure...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Bro ... ted_States
United States

According to The Washington Post, U.S. Muslim Brotherhood supporters "make up the U.S. Islamic community's most organized force" by running hundreds of mosques and business ventures, promoting civic activities, and setting up American Islamic organizations to defend and promote Islam.[133] In 1963, the U.S. chapter of Muslim Brotherhood was started by activists involved with the Muslim Students Association (MSA).[11] U.S. supporters of the Brotherhood also started other organizations including: North American Islamic Trust in 1971, the Islamic Society of North America in 1981, the American Muslim Council in 1990, the Muslim American Society in 1992 and the International Institute of Islamic Thought in the 1980s.[11]

The aims of the Brotherhood in America are:

"The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions.
—'An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Group in North America,' 1981[134]


.


DOC , using WiKi for explanation or proof of ongoing political events is meaningless .. WiKi is a "fabrication tool" for western policy, history makers, for fabricating "consent" .. am sure Wiki is closely affiliated, edited, authored, by NSA and western intelligence services .. it's like one asking Waffen-SS or GESTAPO what is the story and background of Mosche

For political events unfolding, WIKI worthless .. and .. even for historical facts and political events way before, 1000s of yrs B4, Wiki "more and less" worthless .. West, WiKi, wants to portray West Greek democracy and and, but does not mention Greek democracy was only for "citizen" (Vast minority) and not for the slaves (vast majority), and the Plato "The Republic" saying no such things as rule of the people rather Elite .. so, do not rely on Wiki .. WiKi is a (clever) mix of truth and lies, so that you should perceive the lies as truth, that is the aim of those who control WiKi

Only historical view and facts I would rely on Wiki is a part of Egyptian Pharaoh .. though, again, that "rubbish" of Jews and Ramses II is falsified by Zionist to make a case for usurping Palestine .. WiKi nowhere says that Ramses II day by day rule is chronicled and available in British museum, WiKi never says that Jew and Ramses a BS .. a lot of uTube clips and WiKi facts I posted yrs ago which were negative for Zionist, have disappeared

.
As I told Ibrahim I went to the original links. And that is about as good as it ever gets in any citation of political events from the last 25 to 50 years. Wikipedia is a collection of people that are at least tying to eliminate political bias. If you think an article is biased then complain about it and they will consider your complaint.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:As I told Ibrahim I went to the original links. And that is about as good as it ever gets in any citation of political events from the last 25 to 50 years. Wikipedia is a collection of people that are at least tying to eliminate political bias. If you think an article is biased then complain about it and they will consider your complaint.
I read the citation and know where the story originated and in what context. Those statements are the product of an individual who was heading a small organization that raised funds for Hamas. What does that tell you about the MB in Egypt, and why does it make you at least tacitly support their violent suppression by the Egyptian military? Or if you don't support that then what are you trying to say with any of this?


And why did you ignore my systematic explanation of this above, preferring to boast to Azari that you already covered it?
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Parodite
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Parodite »

Ibrahim wrote:The US has murdered millions of innocent people on the dubious justification that they presented a "threat," and all indications are that this murder will continue.
Millions? Where you get your numbers from...
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Ibrahim »

Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The US has murdered millions of innocent people on the dubious justification that they presented a "threat," and all indications are that this murder will continue.
Millions? Where you get your numbers from...
I was referring to the entire history of the US, not specifically its current Middle Eastern wars, but total casualties from all of them put together would probably number close to one million.

I mean even if you only accept Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2, and Afghanistan you don't think we could get to "millions?"
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Parodite
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Parodite »

Ibrahim wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The US has murdered millions of innocent people on the dubious justification that they presented a "threat," and all indications are that this murder will continue.
Millions? Where you get your numbers from...
I was referring to the entire history of the US, not specifically its current Middle Eastern wars, but total casualties from all of them put together would probably number close to one million.

I mean even if you only accept Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2, and Afghanistan you don't think we could get to "millions?"
Could be. Wouldn't mind add the million soldiers that died in the US civil war. Youngsters thrown into the meat chopper of history that might otherwise have had happy bright futures. The allied bombing of German cities in WW2. Economic sanctions on Saddams Iraq that probably also killed quite a few citizens. But would argue that the US is less willing to start big adventures abroad. The public awareness that wars are no good is on the rise.
Ibrahim
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Re: IS the Muslim brotherhood a threat to US national securi

Post by Ibrahim »

Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The US has murdered millions of innocent people on the dubious justification that they presented a "threat," and all indications are that this murder will continue.
Millions? Where you get your numbers from...
I was referring to the entire history of the US, not specifically its current Middle Eastern wars, but total casualties from all of them put together would probably number close to one million.

I mean even if you only accept Vietnam, Iraq 1 and 2, and Afghanistan you don't think we could get to "millions?"
Could be. Wouldn't mind add the million soldiers that died in the US civil war. Youngsters thrown into the meat chopper of history that might otherwise have had happy bright futures. The allied bombing of German cities in WW2. Economic sanctions on Saddams Iraq that probably also killed quite a few citizens. But would argue that the US is less willing to start big adventures abroad. The public awareness that wars are no good is on the rise.

I would agree that the actual soldiers themselves are often also victims of a conflict. Simultaneously victims and perpetrators of atrocity. Veterans are certainly left behind by the government and society that initially sent them to war, if the statistics on returning veterans in the US are even remotely accurate.

If all of this makes a country less likely to go to war then all the better.
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