Islam and homosexuality

Post Reply
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Islam and homosexuality

Post by Parodite »

User avatar
Alexis
Posts: 1305
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Post by Alexis »

Difference on the topic between Islam on the one hand, Christianity and Judaism on the other, is that homosexuality in Islam is seen not only as a sin - Biblical sources agree on that - but as a crime in a civilian law way.

This difference boils down to Deuteronomic law not having been applied by Jews for two millenia and counting, and never by Christians, because the Law (Torah) was seen as a personal obligation rather than as the basis for civil law of a country.

The fact that Jews have had no possibility during most of the last two millenia to have their own State with assorted temptation to declare that the civilian law can "only be Torah, of course" has certainly played a role. Would need to inquire about the Jewish state in Southern Arabia in 6th century, and the Jewish state in South Russia in 9th-11th century however: did these apply all the provisions for Deuteronomic law? I don't know. No matter what, now that Jews have again a State where they are a majority, they have not defined Torah as "the law of the land".

A big question for the future of Islam is obviously: what to make of the Shariah, personal obligation or law of the land?

In countries where Muslims are but a minority, and are a majority in no region of the country, the question is moot. Not only Muslims don't have any practical possibility to establish Shariah as civilian law, the cultural influence of their non-Muslim countrymen will make sure that most Muslims choose to interpret Shariah as personal obligation only.

In countries where a clear majority of Muslims exists, well the people will decide. And their non-Muslim countrymen of course may decide to emigrate if Shariah is installed and they think that their rights are reduced too strictly as a consequence: quite a number of countries enable Christians and Jews to live without being dhimmis. Not to speak of rights of believers in other religions, or of Atheists.

In countries where the part of Muslims in the population is close to half, a risk exists of tensions arising between Muslims and non-Muslims. The risk will not be realized in all cases of course: it will depend on the particulars of the situation, and above all of goodwill on all sides.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Post by Ibrahim »

Alexis wrote:Difference on the topic between Islam on the one hand, Christianity and Judaism on the other, is that homosexuality in Islam is seen not only as a sin - Biblical sources agree on that - but as a crime in a civilian law way.
"Islam" doesn't have civilian laws. Islam has religious law ("Sharia") just like Christianity and Judaism, and countries have civilian laws that may or may not coincide with religious laws. Homosexuality is illegal in most majority-Muslim countries, as it has been in almost all countries everywhere in the world until the second half of the 20th century. I would prefer that they were more liberal in this regard, but there has been improvement in the most developed countries, and clearly this is a development issue rather than a religious one. The tolerant societies of Northewestern Europe or (parts of) North America are remarkably recent inventions in human history. I like them, but they are more fragile and untried than people recognize.


I'm afraid the rest of your analysis flawed as a result of being mistaken about this first point.


Note also that whatever you can say about the Islamic community's reaction to homosexuality you can also say about traditional communities of Sikhs, Hindus, Africans of all religions, and many Christians communities in or from underdeveloped countries.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Post by Ibrahim »


I'm not sure of the accuracy of this website, and thus its value. I can't find any authoritative information on it, but this is one view I've seen echoed numerous times:
WikiIslam is an anti-Islamic wiki, describing itself as "[a wiki with] 2500+ critical articles on various areas of Islam based on its own sources, the Qur'an, hadith and Islamic scholars."

It was launched on September 4, 2006, in collaboration with Ali Sina and Faith Freedom International (FFI) who provided the site with server space and exposure. In August 2008, the site was moved out of FFI's server and since then it has been operating independently, remaining unaffiliated with or owned by any organization.

Its criticisms of Islam, its adherents, and its supporters are very sharp. Amongst its core and high-priority articles are those on the subjects of propaganda, homosexuality and pedophilia, which purport to be descriptions of Islam's treatment of these subjects. It also has a considerable amount of detail on apostasy from Islam, focusing on the fact that it is punishable by death as well as other issues surrounding leaving the religion.

Due to constant vandalism and non-compliance with guidelines by anonymous editors, WikiIslam, like the German Wikipedia, has implemented “pending-changes protection” on all pages, meaning that editing still remains open to all, including IP users, but changes have to be approved before becoming visible to readers.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/WikiIslam



Here are some quotes from Ali Sina:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/fe ... s/ali_sina

I'm sure some of the forum members will really be into this guy. He wants to eradicate Islam and kill as many Muslims as necessary in the process.
User avatar
Apollonius
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:32 pm

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Post by Apollonius »

So he's a hero.

Ibrahims wrote:I can't find any authoritative information on it,

That's because you don't read.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Post by Ibrahim »

Apollonius wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:I'm sure some of the forum members will really be into this guy. He wants to eradicate Islam and kill as many Muslims as necessary in the process.
So he's a hero.
Don't go outing yourself as a violent extremist too quickly. We all knew it, but where's the tease?

Oh, and you realize he wants to exterminate Muslims and not Native Americans, right? Or am I losing track of how many groups of people you hate with murderous intensity?




Ibrahim wrote:I can't find any authoritative information on it,

That's because you don't read.
Have you found an authoritative source about the foundation of "wikiislam" and its connection to Sina? If so please share it. Let us revel in your reading ability.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Post by Ibrahim »

http://www.hrc.org/blog/entry/largest-u ... ation-bill
Largest U.S. Muslim Organization Supports LGBT Anti-Discrimination Bill

Last week, one of the clearest shifts in the decades-long debate over Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA) came into light from the largest U.S.-based Muslim organization, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), joined a broad interfaith coalition, calling ENDA a “measured, common sense solution that will ensure workers are judged on their merits, not on their personal characteristics like sexual orientation or gender identity.”

In a historic advancement for the LGBT rights movement, the Senate on Thursday approved ENDA, a bill that protects against workplace discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. Despite advances in anti-discrimination in the workplace, Muslims continue to face unfair job discrimination. Our shared experiences of discrimination can provide a common basis to work with one another to mold a more inclusive America.

Commenting on the shift of tone, Dr. Sharon Groves, Director of HRC’s Religion and Faith Program, regarded ISNA's support of ENDA as a major step in right direction.

“LGBT Muslims both in the U.S. and abroad need to hear from organizations like ISNA that their experiences as Muslims are recognized in the spirit of Islam’s emphasis on compassion and respect for all humanity,” said Groves.

The movement for greater acceptance of LGBT people in Islam is growing. LGBT Muslims continue to be at the forefront of cutting edge scholarship at the intersection of Islam and issues affecting the lives of LGBT Muslims. Around the nation and the world, LGBT Muslims and their allies are working to build an inclusive faith — and having some notable success.

A Pew Research survey released in August 2011 found that 39 percent of Muslim Americans belief homosexuality should be accepted by society. Still, there is greater support for societal acceptance of LGBT people among U.S. Muslims today than there was a few years ago when only 27 percent accepted. Today, LGBT Muslims are a cornerstone of the LGBT community. Muslim Americans have enriched our country with Islam’s core teachings of human dignity, egalitarianism, compassion and social justice.
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Islam and homosexuality

Post by Parodite »

Today societies accepting homosexuality and homosexuals tend to be more civilised and developed in other areas as well. The best canary in the coal mine in most cases, a near perfect thermometer that measures quite accurately the level and quality of democracy, of human rights, of diversity at any point in time.

The nice thing about the gay canary in the coal mine is that there is no need to quarrel about holy books and how to properly read them; just probe the life of homosexuals in any society and you will know how civil it is. If you probe regularly and plot the results on a time line you see where society and culture are going, or not going.

Of course it helps when religious people point to texts in holy books that express a spirit of tolerance and love even. With the caveat that in every holy book you can find examples and inspiration to the opposite. You think the New Testament is the summit of Love, Tolerance, Forgiveness? Just read the last book of it where John reveals how the enemies of Christ are crushed in a blood bath that will pale all known genocides in history as mere foreplay. And: there is something goofy about people loving, hating, accepting or persecuting others because they read it in a book that they believe tells them to do so.
Post Reply