Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Ibrahim
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Re: 1st and last admonition

Post by Ibrahim »

Rhapsody wrote: I have the impression, that all people here value the diversity of people and input.
Why would false or malicious claims be valued? Why should they be immune to exposure and correction?
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Apollonius wrote:What versions of the Qur"an do you recommend that are searchable?
Islamicity.com has free searchable Qu'ran and hadith in several translations.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Ibrahim »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Apollonius wrote:What versions of the Qur"an do you recommend that are searchable?
Islamicity.com has free searchable Qu'ran and hadith in several translations.
Any edition will demonstrate that Rhapsody's claims about the opening of the Quran are factually incorrect/false.


Pickthall is the most famous/oldest English translation, and is still readily available. The new Penguin translation by Tarif Khalidi is probably the most accurate English version currently available. Both are good.
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Typhoon
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Typhoon »

From now on, to be clear, it doesn't matter if a post is 99% genius and 1% trash talk.

If a poster makes it personal, then the post is going straight to Hell. All of it.
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noddy
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by noddy »

Typhoon wrote:
noddy wrote:well its true to say that if you go into any community and reject the memes that the community believes holds it together you are in for a wild ride.

not so true to say you will always be bashed by them and then the police will arrest you for causing a disturbance.

i wouldnt be blaming it particularly on islam but i would be wary of most islamic countries for this kind of response, ditto any of the more old school tribal places.
Perhaps one day our species will evolve away from the poo-flinging simian tribalism that makes up so much of human activity.
oh but we haz!

civilised folks fling virtual poops with electronic fingers, tis a very big improvement... its like football replacing war, real physical damage becomes symbolic only and you turn beatings and death into hissy fits.
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Parodite
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Parodite »

So lets stay on topic here: Islam in Indonesia and its blasphemy laws in particular. I agree with Ibrahim that Indonesia is not yet the cosy dosy soft and moderate Islamic country where diversity is celebrated that many people think it is. That was the whole purpose of me starting the thread. There is a very frail balance between all the religious and etnic groups, and atheist ex-Muslims that express themselves can expect things to happen as with the guy mentioned in the linked article.

Did anyone btw watch the linked video:

1sivAkHdV4Q

Any reactions?
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noddy
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by noddy »

i actually live in this area and have lived with tropical peoples and do have relatives that live in indonesia.

its a complex place with many villages and many cultures and its central government is laughably irrelevant to most... in many ways its a libertarians dream with localised rulesets and all the chaotic variability that entails.

as such, i wouldnt get too fussed about generalities... depends on the village, depends on the bigman in that village at the times.. depends.

"generally speaking" asia isnt the place to be making inflamatory public statements because they take "politeness" as more important than "free speech"... much like western middle class PC types.. india and china arent really any different in that regard.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Ibrahim »

Parodite wrote:So lets stay on topic here: Islam in Indonesia and its blasphemy laws in particular. I agree with Ibrahim that Indonesia is not yet the cosy dosy soft and moderate Islamic country where diversity is celebrated that many people think it is.
Its not clear what this is supposed to mean, or who it is that allegedly believes what about Indonesia. Indonesia's development indicators are well known, and most people remember the collapse of their decades long dictatorship, as well as economically motivated violence against foreign business-owners etc.

It appears that a straw man is being constructed.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Typhoon wrote: In a civilized world, laws against so-called blasphemy would not exist.
In a civilized world, people would not insult others and call it freedom of speech.

But since we do not live in a civilized world, the stupid deserves the stupid.

In my opinion.
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by monster_gardener »

Parodite wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:As a simple point of fact, the Quran as compiled in modern editions begins with a profession of faith, followed by the declaration that it is the world of God, and that upon hearing it some will believe it and some will not.
Maybe it is more beneficial to this board if you provide us with an online version of the Quran that you consider a good one, for starters. Many people, among them ex-Muslims, consider the Quran full of hate-speech against non-believers. They might misunderstand Allah's poetry of course... and maybe we should not take his anger tantrums too literally.

Please enlighten us Oh Noble and Wise Reformist Scholar, that we may one day all find life in Allah the Great. It seems He really does mean well, but somehow his communications with mankind have not always been... optimal or human friendly. Maybe because of what people did in His Noble Name, hypocritically and falsely claiming knowledge of His Words and putting others on the track to Hell, like this Woman:

1sivAkHdV4Q

Thank you Very Much for your post, Parodite.
Allah the Great. It seems He really does mean well, but somehow his communications with mankind have not always been... optimal or human friendly.
Remind me a bit of a Phillip Jose Farmer story about an incompetent ET/Angel tasked with promoting love among humans because love is what fuels the Universe. The hapless ET/angel fouled up on his first assignment in Egypt and got the stinky nickname of "Ikhnaton Ike" ;) and then fouled up even worse in Arabia and was stuck with the even stinkier name of "Mecca Mike" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not that his bosses are nice........ And eventually Mecca Mike has a crisis of conscience.............

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Parodite
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Parodite »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Typhoon wrote: In a civilized world, laws against so-called blasphemy would not exist.
In a civilized world, people would not insult others and call it freedom of speech.

But since we do not live in a civilized world, the stupid deserves the stupid.

In my opinion.
The reason that freedom of expression and speech are of higher orther than civility, is that not everybody agrees on what is civil, what is insulting... What sounds as mere poetry to me, may mean for you a serious painful insult and vice-versa. Same is true not for only speech... but also other behaviors. For some a woman walking totally veiled in the street is a provocation and insult to female dignity. to others a woman walking in a bikini is also an insult to female dignity.

Since people have different sensitivities it is better to not favor and protect the sensibilities of one over those of another, and instead maximise the freedom for all to express themselves and have the limits set much further down the line: usually at inciting to hatred and/or physical violence. In court one can file a case of such against one another. This is IMO much better than maximising the freedom of one group of peopleand their specific sensitivities, at the cost of the freedom and sensitivies of others.

I see blasphemy laws as kind of curfew/emergence laws that apply to an out of control situation with too much tensions that have built already; and they are set by those in power.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Parodite wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Typhoon wrote: In a civilized world, laws against so-called blasphemy would not exist.
In a civilized world, people would not insult others and call it freedom of speech.

But since we do not live in a civilized world, the stupid deserves the stupid.

In my opinion.
The reason that freedom of expression and speech are of higher orther than civility, is that not everybody agrees on what is civil, what is insulting... What sounds as mere poetry to me, may mean for you a serious painful insult and vice-versa. Same is true not for only speech... but also other behaviors. For some a woman walking totally veiled in the street is a provocation and insult to female dignity. to others a woman walking in a bikini is also an insult to female dignity.

Since people have different sensitivities it is better to not favor and protect the sensibilities of one over those of another, and instead maximise the freedom for all to express themselves and have the limits set much further down the line: usually at inciting to hatred and/or physical violence. In court one can file a case of such against one another. This is IMO much better than maximising the freedom of one group of peopleand their specific sensitivities, at the cost of the freedom and sensitivies of others.

I see blasphemy laws as kind of curfew/emergence laws that apply to an out of control situation with too much tensions that have built already; and they are set by those in power.
C'mon Rhapsody. Showing a picture of the prophet Mohammed being 'porked' by a pig has only one purpose. To insult. Posting what a majority consider very insulting on a public domain is not just inconsiderate but pretty stupid given that there are laws against it.

You can get arrested 'round these parts for walking topless on the street. Does that mean that the US is Saudi'sh now?
And why haven't you protested France's ban on the Burqa?

Would you still favor a court ruling if it was an Islamic court? ;)
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Parodite
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Parodite »

Hans Bulvai wrote:C'mon Rhapsody. Showing a picture of the prophet Mohammed being 'porked' by a pig has only one purpose. To insult. Posting what a majority consider very insulting on a public domain is not just inconsiderate but pretty stupid given that there are laws against it.


It is possible of course there are people who insult for only one reason: just for the fun of it. But there are scores of others who insult, usually in the form of ridicule, mockery and notably stand-up comedy, because they noticed that those crying foul over these insults are very intolerant and insulting themselves; i.e. members of a religious cult that engages on a weekly basis in promoting the idea that they are the blessed ones loved by The Great Leader Kim Yon Allah... and the non-believers, the rotten fruits of society that deserve the wrath of Kim Yon Allah. So there the purpose is not to just insult for the fun of insulting, but 1) to expose the hypocracy of those cry-babies, and 2) to remember people about rights of free speech and freedom of expression that are hard fought for currencies in our societies and that those same cry-babies have the tendency of wanting to change the law in their favor at the cost of free speech by pushing blasphemy laws so they can continue their hate-cult against non-Muslims.

This happens here in the public domain to give you an example of what and how people can mock, ridicule here.. and where the mocked and ridiculed, in this case Christians, shrug their shoulders because they just think it is tasteless, poor humor or they simply don't care.

230R4Fx2BNc

No Christian here files a law suit because of it. As a result, mockery and ridicule of Christianity have lost most of its raison d'etre, and only sporadically you'll find it in stand-up comedy. But it took us centuries to get there! Muslim immigrants of course missed all that, so there is more work to do and an effort from both sides. Muslims who only do cry-baby and demand blasphemy laws should be advised to maybe try live in Indonesia.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Ibrahim »

These remain feeble justifications for an obviously hateful and bigoted program of discrimination. The plan boils down to wanting to act like the Indonesian mob, but replacing the atheist with Dutch Muslims.
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Parodite
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Parodite »

Ibrahim wrote:These remain feeble justifications for an obviously hateful and bigoted program of discrimination. The plan boils down to wanting to act like the Indonesian mob, but replacing the atheist with Dutch Muslims.
You are mad, that's all.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Moderate Islam in Indonesia

Post by Ibrahim »

Apparently referring to people's past claims is mad.
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