Libya after Gaddafi

Jnalum Persicum

Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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‘West miscalculated the potential of Arab World anger’

In his thirty years of British government service, Alistair Crooke has operated in trouble spots all across the globe – from helping the Mujahadeen fighters in Afghanistan against the Soviets, to working with rebel political groups in Northern Ireland, Cambodia and Colombia. As a former EU special envoy to the Middle East, he has brokered a number of ceasefires between Israel and the Palestinian movements, Fatah and Hamas. He now serves as the director of the conflicts forum in Beirut, where RT sat down with him for an exclusive interview.

RT: Well, is the wave of recent violence, the anti-American wave of protests across the Middle East – do you see that as a coordinated effort or perhaps just a reaction to what’s going on on the ground?

Alistair Crooke: It seems to me that what happened in Libya was well planned and well-conceived. I mean very well planned, and was certainly not something that happened just out of the blue. And it coincided, of course, with the anniversary of 9/11, and seems to have been more serious. I don't think that necessarily suggests that everything else that has…that occurred during this period was therefore coordinated or well-designed or well planned. What it did touch was a real latent sense of anger at what people see as the continuing aggression (as they see it) against their traditions, against their culture, against their way of being in this region by western states.

The recent events, the sudden outbreak of Salafist violence in Libya itself, in Benghazi, the very seat of what America saw as the new era emerging. This outbreak will cause the West cumulatively to begin to question and start the process which they need to do, which is really to reassess what actually is going on. It's not the awakening that people thought. It's not simply a popular impulse of the oppressed against the oppressors. It’s far more than that, and what we are seeing is the overlay of the dynamics. Here it is that Gulf States -Saudi Arabia and Qatar and other Gulf States- that are trying to create a Sunni block in the western lands of Islam, as they try to create a Salafist-Sunni block in the eastern lands and have succeeded. Now it’s the turn of Syria. And it’s causing huge turmoil, and huge internal conflict within the region.

RT: Well, referring to the killing of the US Ambassador in Libya, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has remarked, “how could this happen in a country that we helped liberate?” What are the US foreign policy makers missing when it comes to their support or interfering in countries with a complicated stance toward the West?

AC: Indeed I think it is causing a real sense of anxiety and a sense of shock in the US widely, because this whole narrative that somehow the awakening was going our way was reflecting… and you know much of that was simply based on this rather facile narrative promoted by the mainstream western press saying: look they're using Twitter and Facebook and therefore it must be western in its orientation. Well, look, of course you find the Salafist groups are using Twitter and Facebook, but not necessarily to promote western values. But I think that gave it the sense that somehow this is flowing in the West’s direction and it should be a big wakeup call to western states.

For the moment we see a tacit, if you like, alliance between these radical elements and the United States in bringing down Assad and bringing down Gaddafi. But when that's finished, where will their anger turn? Where will their objective turn? It will turn precisely on Israel and America again.

The West is living. I've seen for 25 years people think they're using the Salafists as simple pious people who don't understand politics to their end only to find the Salafists use them for their end. And I fear that this is happening. They will find that it will turn on them and will bite them just as it did 25-30 years ago.

RT: Well what lessons has the US failed to learn when it comes to its experience in Afghanistan? And how does that relate to what’s going on right now?

AC: Well, I remember in 1987 going and talking to the Americans about it and saying, 'you know, you need to really understand that there’re big differences between these groups that are taking part in this alliance that you’ve put together, and you have to understand some have credibility and real roots within the community but others do not at all – they're quite different.' And the Americans and a senator – I remember at the time -turned to me and said: 'Listen Alastair. Thank you for the advice in warning us about certain groups in Afghanistan, but look I just want to tell you, they're the ones who really kick communist ass.' And so we looked away, we didn't want to know what was happening. We preferred not to look because it was so popular domestically with President Reagan, with Mrs. Thatcher. It was going down well.

Now we’re in the era where we're kicking Gaddafi's ass. We're kicking President Assad's ass – it’s a popular sport in the west. And good domestically. So we don't look. Who are these groups in Syria? Who were the groups in Libya? What really are their objectives? Are their objectives truly to bring about -as some in the west imagine- a simply more liberal society, a more democratic and easy breathing society? Of course not.

Just as 25-30 years ago people didn't want to hear, it was unpopular to say these things, so it’s been extremely unpopular here.

RT:So are you saying that the West miscalculated, chose the wrong alliances perhaps?

AC: I think that they miscalculate totally what was happening. They chose, they created a narrative for themselves. It was a constructive narrative, that really all of this in the initial awakening – which was popular and had real popular impulse in it – was a somehow vindication of European values, of American values. And they misread this totally – it was not. It was in fact -and you heard this- it was a protest against injustice and inequity. It was a protest against neoliberalism. It was a protest against the absolute support by the west for Israel and its policies against the Palestinians. That may not have been at the forefront of all of the clamor, but the reason that these dictators like Mubarak had been so unpopular, was precisely because he was the instrument of the West, the instrument of suppression of the Palestinians. And that’s what always lay behind the protests that took place so it was not an endorsement of Western values, it was a reaction. And I think the recent violence that we've seen, against western embassies –not just Americans, western- sharply underlines symbolically the limits of western influence in the region. This is pushback against their attempt to shape and mold the so-called Arab Awakening for their own purpose. To install their own people, their own successors, for their own interests in this area.

RT: Well, when it comes to Syria how do you see the conflict there playing out? Is peace at all possible at this point or have we surpassed that opportunity?

AC: I don't think until now we've had a window, There’s not really been real window for negotiations because the West has not wanted the opposition to seriously negotiate except on a complete collapse of president Assad and the Syrian system…I think there may be a window arising in the near future and I do hope that the West will -instead of ridiculing and belittling Russia's attempts to try and have a negotiated outcome- they instead support it. Because Russia plays a crucial role. If there is ever to be a negotiation between the two parties, there will have to be guarantees, for the opposition. And who is going to give the guarantees? The UN? Absolutely not. The West? Turkey? Of course not. Only Russia can really play the crucial role in resulting. I'm sorry but a UN negotiator, the UN has no standing or real legitimacy in Syria among either side at this time.

RT: And are you worried about the ongoing violence in Syria spilling over here into Lebanon and potentially fracturing the society here?

AC: Of course. Everyone is worried and it already has had effect here in Lebanon. It has polarized the politics of Lebanon. It has resulted in conflicts that have taken place in Tripoli. It has resulted in skirmishes that have happened in Beirut, and in the south –in Sidon – we see reflections of this taking place.And Lebanon is, of course, vulnerable to this type of sectarian conflict. But so is Jordan, so is Iraq. And we are seeing the same effects also taking place. So it is affecting the whole region. And if it continues, and of course if the money and the weapons continue to be poured into Syria, it will of course continue for a certain extent. No government can stop two or three people and car bombs. If it does continue, the tensions will increase, but they may explode outside Syria. In fact, I think in many cases at this stage, it’s the states outside that are more vulnerable –the neighbors of Syria- that could be said to be more vulnerable than Syria itself to conflagration and to civil war.

RT: Well, Israel remains surprisingly untouched –it would seem at least on the surface- by the rise of radical Islam. Do you expect that to continue, and how do you see this playing out?

AC: I think at the moment that it’s quite true, that the Palestinian issue is almost obscured –hardly even on the agenda. But of course, I don’t believe that this will persist. I believe that the Palestinian issue has been so crucial to the self-identity of so many states –whether it’s Egypt, whether it’s Syria itself- that when things settle down, the Palestinian issue will of course re-emerge. And of course, Israel is not unaffected; it may not be feeling the effects now, but look. What’s happened has been as dramatic a change as South Africa experienced all those years ago, at the time of the implosion of the Soviet Union. Suddenly, Israel is now surrounded, in Egypt, and perhaps soon in Jordan and elsewhere, by a very different region from the one in which it previously existed.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oc ... CMP=twt_gu
Libyan government in disarray after parliament sacks prime minister-elect





Libya's parliament has sacked its prime minister-elect, Mustafa Abushagur, leaving the government in disarray three months after the July elections.

Abushagur was dismissed after MPs decisively rejected a 10-member emergency cabinet, itself proposed after MPs turned down his full cabinet choices late last week.

The result leaves the country without firm governance as it copes with warring militias, a moribund economy and the fallout from the killing last month of US ambassador Chris Stevens.

Abushagur, a former exile who spent more than 30 years in the United States, claimed that MPs had failed to put aside parochial claims for the common good. "There was pressure on me, people wanted ministers from their regions,'' he said.

Abushagur's dismissal, with 125 of the 200 MPs rejecting him, underlines the problem of a congress where regionally elected members make up a majority, and where the main parties, the pro-business National Forces Alliance and the Muslim Brotherhood's Justice and Construction party have both failed to form working majorities.

"Because the country is facing challenges, I presented a mini-cabinet," he said.

A reminder of those challenges boomed outside the congress chamber, in the shape of 300 protesters from Bani Walid complaining about a blockade by pro-government militias encircling the southern town.

The government is demanding Bani Walid hand over suspects in the killing of a prominent revolutionary, and has deployed tanks and artillery in preparation for an armed incursion, with fighter jets buzzing the town over the weekend.

Meanwhile police are blockading the eastern coastal town of Susah, site of the ancient Greek city of Apollonia, claiming jihadists responsible for the murder of four police officers are trapped inside.

Some observers remain optimistic, pointing to the fact that the congress is the first parliament elected in Libya in more than 50 years. "It's not uncommon in systems that have proportional representation that it's sometimes a challenge for someone to pull together a government," said Carlo Binda of America's National Democratic Institute. "It happens across the world."
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Forced Conversions may be Possible..........

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Ibrahim wrote:
Sparky wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Aside from forced conversion being logically impossible, it is specifically prohibited in Islam.
I'm not sure logical impossibility is any sort of impediment to a zealous religious fundamentalist.
Theology (noun): the discipline of making the irrational and religious sound logical.


The impossibility of forcing conversions certainly doesn't cause extremists to embrace ecumenism, but they more often kill people who don't believe what they believe than try to convert them. Killing is more their forte than debate.
Thank You Very Much for your posts, Ibrahim and Sparky.
The impossibility of forcing conversions
I'm not so sure that it is impossible to force conversions.........

Remembering a Psychology text talking about how extreme stress can induce a psychological state where conversions are possible....

Was in reference to the Spanish Inquisition but another text about Pavlov had similar about being able to change behavior in dogs after they were stressed by an accidental flood in the lab.....

Recalling it stated that some people are easier to break and turn than others and that the hardest ones to break tend to be the most firm in their new faith.......

And IMVHO not all of this has to be nasty Spanish Inquisition stuff........ If a person is already in stress and you relieve it..........
Have seen a case of that.....

Also recalling "Brainwashing"...............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

FWIW....... But IMVHO we killer apes are not a tough as we would like to think we are........
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Libyan turmoil persists year after Gadhafi death

http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-turmoil-pe ... 53833.html

...

Libyans have failed to overcome deep enmities between those who fought to overthrow Gadhafi and former loyalists of the late leader, whose eccentric and brutal rule focused on pitting tribes against one another.

Al-Mzirig said many remnants of the old regime are still working inside the government and only after they have been removed will the country fulfill the promises of the uprising, which began in February 2011 as part of the Arab Spring wave of revolts that swept the Middle East but quickly morphed into a civil war.

This attitude, common among many who fought in the uprising, bodes ill for future efforts to bring rival groups together.

In the year since Gadhafi's death, conflicts have broken out around the country, and despite the unprecedented election of a 200-person national assembly, the central government is weak and power remains with the armed groups that sprung up with the rebellion.

A hard-line Islamist militia in Benghazi, Ansar al-Shariah, is widely believed to have been behind the Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. consulate, although it has denied responsibility.

These groups, especially the armed militias, have often pursued their own agendas, some dating back to longstanding feuds inside a country Gadhafi controlled unchecked for more than four decades.

After Gadhafi was killed, the former rebels negotiated a takeover of the Bani Walid and then looted it, prompting the angry citizens to form their own militia and throw out their new rulers in January.

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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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The only way out is forward.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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There is no way out and it is only backwards now.
I read reports today in the Arab press that the women of Bani Walid are also fighting.
Any succesful revolution aims to national reconciliation not the shelling and killing of 70,000 people.
I love it. The media calls it pro-Gadhaffi stronghold. Yeah, they want him back in power.

Bani Walid civilians bombed with gas – RT source

https://rt.com/news/bani-walid-gas-bomb-904/

...

Bani Walid commanders accuse the pro-government troops and militias of “shelling the town with long-range weapons and even targeting the hospital.”

One of them, Commander Salem al-Waer, said ­“They are pushing Libya towards civil war. Libya will become a second Somalia. Why are they putting tribes against each other?”


Children killed or mutilated in shelling – reports from besieged city

Several graphic clips published on YouTube claim to show dreadful consequences of the recent shelling in Bani Walid.

Plumes of white and black smoke can be seen rising all over the town and sporadic gunfire can be heard in one of the videos dated Friday. Shells hit civilian buildings. Inside one such house there are patches of blood across what appears to be the living room, while the whole house is strewn with rubble and dust, gaping holes in the walls.

Another video, allegedly from Bani Walid, claims to show victims of shelling. A 13-year-old boy killed in a blast is among them, his arm torn away. The caption reads: “Killed Oct 19 by ‘Misrata gang’ bombing.” The camera shifts to another kid – his face and right arm severely burnt, allegedly in the same shelling, and his left foot missing.

A man, who is now in Italy, but whose family is currently in Bani Walid, confirmed to RT the authenticity of the footage and sent more evidence. One of the photos shows the body of a girl under 10 years old, who reportedly died on Saturday following a bombing by Misrata forces.


However, the information could not be independently verified.

‘Bani Walid shelled with grad rockets and gas weapons’

The man who emailed the materials to RT, said in a subsequent interview that the current situation in the besieged town is grave: there are shortages of food, fuel and medicine; the hospital cannot house all the injured and power only appears for a couple of hours a day.

“Misrata’s militias want to eliminate us,” the man said on condition of anonymity, citing safety fears. Below is the full script of his interview to RT: “I have got a call from my family. They tell me the situation in Bani Walid is horrible. There is an awful attack with all kind of shooting and bombing everywhere in the city. The civilian buildings are falling down. “The situation in Bani Walid hospital is really bad. We don’t have a lot of medicine; we don’t have enough places for wounded civilians. Right now the hospital is keeping wounded people outside."

“No family would leave Bani Walid. All the people in Bani Walid say the same words: ‘We’ll never go from our land.’

“There are no Gaddafi people [in the city]. Even a member of Libya’s National Transitional Council, after visiting Bani Walid, also said there were no Gaddafi people there"

“What is happening there is a battle between [Bani Walid’s people] and Misrata, which wants to eliminate Bani Walid from existence. They want to do to Bani Walid what they did in Tahoura."

“There is almost no electricity; it only comes for two-three hours a day. It is three weeks that no food has been able reach Bani Walid as militias that surround the town are blocking the roads. They intercept food, fuel and medicine. There is no food inside Bani Walid, not even milk for kids, no necessities."

“Two hundred of those militias died yesterday, and the bodies are still there. They even left their wounded people there and Bani Walid hospital is taking care of those wounded people."


“Militias went inside the city, but they only went a few kilometers before getting kicked out. They used machine guns inside; and from outside they used grad rockets and gas weapons."

...
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Hans Bulvai wrote:Any succesful revolution aims to national reconciliation not the shelling and killing of 70,000 people.
Good point, somebody should really do something about that Assad fellow. Oh wait...
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Any succesful revolution aims to national reconciliation not the shelling and killing of 70,000 people.
Good point, somebody should really do something about that Assad fellow. Oh wait...
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Some more "cake and twinkies."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/ ... 6420121104
(Reuters) - Rival Libyan militias fired guns and rocket-propelled grenades at each other in Tripoli on Sunday and set fire to a former intelligence building in one of the worst breakdowns in security in the capital since Muammar Gaddafi's fall.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Dr. Mohammed El-Katiri, State-Building Challenges in a Post-Revolution Libya

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.ar ... cfm?q=1127
Following the overthrow of Muammar Qadhafi, Libya’s National Transitional Council inherited a difficult and volatile domestic situation. The new leadership faces serious challenges in all areas of statehood. Libya’s key geostrategic position, and role in hydrocarbon production and exportation, means that the internal developments in Libya are crucial not only to the Libyan people, but also to neighboring countries both in North Africa and across the Mediterranean in southern Europe. Therefore, mitigation or prevention of conditions that could lead to Libya becoming a failing or failed state is of vital importance. A review of the major challenges to the new Libyan regime, including the continuing role of tribalism and the difficulty posed by the new government’s lack of monopoly on ensuring security in Tripoli and beyond are discussed. Special attention is given to the key issues of concern that foreign partners should have when engaging with the new Libyan leadership; and a number of policy recommendations are made as well. Libya’s immediate future is of critical importance, and will determine whether the country faces state consolidation or state failure.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Huh...
So Libya now is another site for blackholes.
So much for liberation.
All of those NATO bombs come with a price. No such thing as a free lunch.
That inevitably brings us back to Benghazi - and that bombshell Fox News report quoting an anonymous Washington source stating that the consulate had a "CIA annex", where three Libyan militia warriors, as in Salafi-jihadis, were being "detained", aka undergoing Dick Cheney-style recreational water activities.

As for the interrogation sessions, that was the responsibility of contractors, a shady collection of "former" Special Ops - as the CIA itself later reminded public opinion that it "has not had detention authority since January 2009, when Executive Order 13491 was issued."

Yet other previous "guests" in Benghazi included fighters from across Northern Africa and the Middle East. To sum it all up; this "annex" was the CIA's top black hole in all of Northern Africa.

So here we have a "secret" CIA safe house attached to a consulate - and obviously not responding to the State Department - staffed with "former" or current Special Forces contractors accepting "renditions" and engaging in "detention" and certainly torture practices that are illegal under American law. They were all there working for Petraeus - and not Hillary Clinton.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Hans Bulvai wrote:Huh...
So Libya now is another site for blackholes.
So much for liberation.
All of those NATO bombs come with a price. No such thing as a free lunch.
Seems like a general US problem rather than specific to Libya. They have the same setups in Yemen, where they helped stifle a popular uprising, and in Pakistan, a nominal sovereign ally. The pro-torture administration is gone, but all those CIA torture-enthusiast staff were never purged let alone brought to account. The CIA is now a kind of global mafia that can torture and kill people, but doesn't really have much in the way of intelligence capabilities, reading emails aside.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Huh...
So Libya now is another site for blackholes.
So much for liberation.
All of those NATO bombs come with a price. No such thing as a free lunch.
Seems like a general US problem rather than specific to Libya. They have the same setups in Yemen, where they helped stifle a popular uprising, and in Pakistan, a nominal sovereign ally. The pro-torture administration is gone, but all those CIA torture-enthusiast staff were never purged let alone brought to account. The CIA is now a kind of global mafia that can torture and kill people, but doesn't really have much in the way of intelligence capabilities, reading emails aside.
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it and no one can do anything about it. Gaddafi is gone, but the torture chambers remain.
Where is the revolutionay government demanding a stop to this outrage? Is it not the end of that kind of behavior that started the revolution? But to be honest, those in power today are too busy fattening their pockets. To hell with security for the average Libyan.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Huh...
So Libya now is another site for blackholes.
So much for liberation.
All of those NATO bombs come with a price. No such thing as a free lunch.
Seems like a general US problem rather than specific to Libya. They have the same setups in Yemen, where they helped stifle a popular uprising, and in Pakistan, a nominal sovereign ally. The pro-torture administration is gone, but all those CIA torture-enthusiast staff were never purged let alone brought to account. The CIA is now a kind of global mafia that can torture and kill people, but doesn't really have much in the way of intelligence capabilities, reading emails aside.
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it and no one can do anything about it.
Seems like they can get their friends together, and some AKs and a mortar, and attack the place.

To hell with security for the average Libyan.
Well now they are armed and there is no effective central government. Seems like a libertarian utopia.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/6772 ... fra-kill-4
Four people were killed in clashes pitting Toubou tribesmen against a brigade linked to the Libyan army in the southern town of Kufra, a military official told AFP on Wednesday.

"Four Toubou tribesmen were killed on Tuesday in clashes against Shield Libya," an army force made up of former rebels, the official said.

Shield Libya, he said, intervened "to prevent student casualties" after a skirmish between Toubou and Zwai tribesmen escalated into an armed confrontation inside Kufra university.

He said Kufra was now calm but tense.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ma ... om-fighter

Libya's original freedom fighter vows to carry on battle for peace

Death threats from the Libyan militias have driven Gaddafi's former nemesis, Hassan al-Amin, to take refuge in London


Chris Stephen

The Observer, Saturday 23 March 2013 10.33 EDT


For three decades, Hassan al-Amin was one of Libya's foremost dissidents. He organised and agitated against the Gaddafi regime from a tiny office in a converted bedroom in his house in south London. When the Arab spring swept the country, he returned to a rapturous welcome, being elected last year to the new congress and appointed head of its human rights committee. But today he is an exile again, chased from Libya by some of the same militias he once hailed as heroes.

Amin's story of triumph and banishment is also the story of Libya's slide from post-revolutionary triumph to a land ruled by the gun. "I returned to Libya with tears in my eyes. I was so hopeful," he says now. "But our revolution has been hijacked."

...
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No King in the Land: Be Armed & Get Out of Crazy Land.......

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Huh...
So Libya now is another site for blackholes.
So much for liberation.
All of those NATO bombs come with a price. No such thing as a free lunch.
Seems like a general US problem rather than specific to Libya. They have the same setups in Yemen, where they helped stifle a popular uprising, and in Pakistan, a nominal sovereign ally. The pro-torture administration is gone, but all those CIA torture-enthusiast staff were never purged let alone brought to account. The CIA is now a kind of global mafia that can torture and kill people, but doesn't really have much in the way of intelligence capabilities, reading emails aside.
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it and no one can do anything about it. Gaddafi is gone, but the torture chambers remain.
Where is the revolutionay government demanding a stop to this outrage? Is it not the end of that kind of behavior that started the revolution? But to be honest, those in power today are too busy fattening their pockets. To hell with security for the average Libyan.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.......
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it
Quite................

"And there was no king in the land and everyone did what he or she thought good............"
and no one can do anything about it.
Not quite.......

Be armed.........

Get the Hell out of Crazy Land........

Be it Crazy Land (TOS):The Middle East ;) or Crazy Land Cambodia, Germany, or even Crazy Land NG: Uz :shock: if things go sour here: Handmaids R US etc..........

And leave Crazy Land memes that don't work anymore behind...........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
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Hans Bulvai
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Location: Underneath everything

Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

monster_gardener wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Huh...
So Libya now is another site for blackholes.
So much for liberation.
All of those NATO bombs come with a price. No such thing as a free lunch.
Seems like a general US problem rather than specific to Libya. They have the same setups in Yemen, where they helped stifle a popular uprising, and in Pakistan, a nominal sovereign ally. The pro-torture administration is gone, but all those CIA torture-enthusiast staff were never purged let alone brought to account. The CIA is now a kind of global mafia that can torture and kill people, but doesn't really have much in the way of intelligence capabilities, reading emails aside.
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it and no one can do anything about it. Gaddafi is gone, but the torture chambers remain.
Where is the revolutionay government demanding a stop to this outrage? Is it not the end of that kind of behavior that started the revolution? But to be honest, those in power today are too busy fattening their pockets. To hell with security for the average Libyan.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.......
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it
Quite................

"And there was no king in the land and everyone did what he or she thought good............"
and no one can do anything about it.
Not quite.......

Be armed.........

Get the Hell out of Crazy Land........

Be it Crazy Land (TOS):The Middle East ;) or Crazy Land Cambodia, Germany, or even Crazy Land NG: Uz :shock: if things go sour here: Handmaids R US etc..........

And leave Crazy Land memes that don't work anymore behind...........
Sorry Monster... I don't believe that guns are a solution to anything. If anything, the article above says otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose them but they are not the answer.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
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monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Best to Have and Not Need than Need but Not Have.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Huh...
So Libya now is another site for blackholes.
So much for liberation.
All of those NATO bombs come with a price. No such thing as a free lunch.
Seems like a general US problem rather than specific to Libya. They have the same setups in Yemen, where they helped stifle a popular uprising, and in Pakistan, a nominal sovereign ally. The pro-torture administration is gone, but all those CIA torture-enthusiast staff were never purged let alone brought to account. The CIA is now a kind of global mafia that can torture and kill people, but doesn't really have much in the way of intelligence capabilities, reading emails aside.
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it and no one can do anything about it. Gaddafi is gone, but the torture chambers remain.
Where is the revolutionay government demanding a stop to this outrage? Is it not the end of that kind of behavior that started the revolution? But to be honest, those in power today are too busy fattening their pockets. To hell with security for the average Libyan.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Hans.......
Sure. But Gaddafi had a monopoly on torturing people in Libya. Now anyone can do it
Quite................

"And there was no king in the land and everyone did what he or she thought good............"
and no one can do anything about it.
Not quite.......

Be armed.........

Get the Hell out of Crazy Land........

Be it Crazy Land (TOS):The Middle East ;) or Crazy Land Cambodia, Germany, or even Crazy Land NG: Uz :shock: if things go sour here: Handmaids R US etc..........

And leave Crazy Land memes that don't work anymore behind...........
Sorry Monster... I don't believe that guns are a solution to anything. If anything, the article above says otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose them but they are not the answer.
Thank You VERY Much for your kind reply, Hans.
I don't believe that guns are a solution to anything.


Guns not always necessary........

Sometimes you can talk, sneak or bribe your way out.......

But bad not to have guns if they are the passport out....

Sometimes they are...

Or could have been.........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
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Doc
Posts: 12562
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:10 pm

Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Doc »

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/world ... .html?_r=0
Car Explodes Outside French Embassy in Libya
Ismail Zitouny/Reuters

The French embassy in Tripoli, Libya, was attacked by what appeared to be a car bomb on Tuesday.
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: April 23, 2013

CAIRO — The explosion of a car parked outside the French Embassy in Libya wounded two French guards on Tuesday in what appeared to be the first major terrorist attack on a diplomatic compound in the capital since the ouster of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi in 2011.

If deliberate, the blast would be the most significant such attack on a diplomatic facility in Libya since a siege of an American outpost in Benghazi last September, in which Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens and three other Americans were killed. A string of more minor attempted attacks on Western or United Nations diplomats began before that attack and has continued since then, although mostly outside the capital.

No one claimed responsibility Tuesday, following the pattern of earlier attacks. But Libyans immediately suspected militant Islamists angry over the French intervention in Mali, where French troops are supporting government efforts to oppose Islamic militants in the north of the country. The assault came a day after the French Parliament voted to extend the French military deployment there.

In the months since French soldiers landed in Mali in January to roll back an attempted takeover by hard-line Islamists, militants in Libya and around the region have denounced the invasion as a new imperialist adventure by the Mali’s former colonial ruler.

And in Libya that anger has blended with mistrust of the motives behind France’s leading role in the Western airstrikes to help topple Colonel Qaddafi. While most Libyans are overwhelmingly grateful for the French airstrikes that stopped Colonel Qaddafi’s troops from crushing the insurrection against him at its start in Benghazi, Islamist militants and others believe the Western powers also sought oil and influence for themselves.

On Tuesday, Laurent Fabius, the French foreign minister, condemned the attack and pledged a swift investigation. The French and Libyan authorities would “make every effort to ensure that the circumstances of this odious act are exposed and it perpetrators quickly identified,” Mr. Fabius said in a statement from Paris.

An official in his ministry said Mr. Fabius would travel to Libya on Tuesday.

Separately, President Franςois Hollande said the bombing was “aimed, by way of France, at all the countries of the international community engaged in the struggle against terrorism.”

“France expects the Libyan authorities to shed the fullest light on this unacceptable act, so that the perpetrators are identified and brought to justice,” Mr. Hollande said in a statement.

Such an inquiry, however, may be difficult. The new Libyan government commands few disciplined police or military officers, and it often appears outmatched by the freewheeling militia formed during and after the uprising against Colonel Qaddafi. Even seven months after the death of the American ambassador, little progress has been made to identify or punish his killers.

The explosion Tuesday morning took place at around 7 a.m. in Tripoli and tore through a wall of the French Embassy compound. Smoke billowed from the burning remains of a car believe to have been used as a bomb. Residents said the blast was one of the largest explosions in Tripoli since Colonel Qaddafi’s fall.

A resident living nearby, who spoke in return for anonymity for fear of reprisals, compared the blast to the worst days of violence in Iraq. “I was knocked out of bed. I lived in Baghdad and I woke up to explosions as big as this one,” she said.

Aside from the two guards, the embassy was largely empty at the time of the blast, limiting the casualties. Speaking on condition of anonymity, a French diplomat on the scene said the blast had destroyed half the building. Damage from the force of the blast extended about five hundred yards, breaking windows in neighboring buildings and houses. A broken water main flooded the street.

The diplomat said one of the two injured guards had left the hospital while the other was in a more serious condition.

Attacks or bombings targeting Western diplomats have been more common around the eastern city of Benghazi, in a region known as a center of Islamist militancy. But since the killing of the American ambassador most Western diplomats have pulled out of Benghazi and retreated to better-secured facilities in Tripoli, in the West.

In January, Italy, the former colonial power in Libya, closed its consulate in Benghazi and withdrew its staff because of security concerns after an attempted ambush of the Italian consul. Last month, Libyan security officials said they had arrested two men in the kidnapping near Benghazi of five British humanitarian activists, at least two of them women who had been sexually assaulted.

The attack on the French Embassy, however, may raise new questions about the possibility that militants may now try to strike other targets in the capital as well. The country as a whole is viewed by outsiders as potentially perilous with many weapons in the hands of citizens and militias beyond government control. Most foreigners in Tripoli take elaborate security precautions.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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