Libya after Gaddafi

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Marcus
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Re: Tolerance?

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:Hey, remember when you called me a "jihadist" because I pointed out you edit people's quotes like this? It was yesterday.
Please refresh my memory with a quote. Thanks . .
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Ibrahim
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Re: Tolerance?

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Hey, remember when you called me a "jihadist" because I pointed out you edit people's quotes like this? It was yesterday.
Please refresh my memory with a quote. Thanks . .
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1167
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Marcus wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I believe they made Sarah palin based pornos . .
You "believe" correctly.
To be fair, can't we assume that many of her supporters snuck a peak at that issue of Hustler?
After all, I remember reading many comments from Republicans that she was a 'milf'.

But seriously, what does Larry publishing a Palin edition has to do with a $5 movie about a historical figure designed specifically to enflame emotions?
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Re: U.S. ambassador dies when Islamists burn consulate in Li

Post by Hans Bulvai »

monster_gardener wrote: Maybe you & Azari were right about Libya etc...
Maybe?
My whole argument from the get go was that this will be worst for the Arabs. 4 US diplomats lost their life. As tragic as that is, many more Libyans, Syrians, etc... will also perish. The whole thing is designed to make sure that nothing will rise from the ashes but despair and extremism at is nastiest. I hope the Libyans, and Egyptians, can control this for this sake. And when I say I doubt it it is not some sort of pessimism but reality now being reflected on the ground.

Meanwhile, while Syria is off the radar briefly, hundreds more have died.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I believe they made Sarah palin based pornos . .
You "believe" correctly.
To be fair, can't we assume that many of her supporters snuck a peak at that issue of Hustler?
After all, I remember reading many comments from Republicans that she was a 'milf'.

But seriously, what does Larry publishing a Palin edition has to do with a $5 movie about a historical figure designed specifically to enflame emotions?
You really have to ask?
Censorship isn't necessary
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Marcus
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I believe they made Sarah palin based pornos . .
You "believe" correctly.
To be fair, can't we assume that many of her supporters snuck a peak at that issue of Hustler?
After all, I remember reading many comments from Republicans that she was a 'milf'.

But seriously, what does Larry publishing a Palin edition has to do with a $5 movie about a historical figure designed specifically to enflame emotions?
My post was intended to confirm Mr. P's suspicion, Hans, nothing more. Both videos, the porn of Governor Palin and the spoof of Islam, were intended to inflame and insult. The difference was the reactions of the offended parties, American Conservatives and Middle Eastern Muslims.
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Zack Morris
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Apples and oranges, Marcus. A better comparison would have been a video by Muslims insulting Christianity. I doubt that a video poking fun at the middle eastern equivalent of Palin (who would that be, by the way? Ghaddafi in his younger days?), a politician, would draw the same sort of outrage. Of course, it is also true that insulting Christianity would not provoke violent mobs (at best maybe some some isolated hate crimes), so Americans conservatives still come out ahead here.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Zack Morris wrote:Apples and oranges, Marcus. A better comparison would have been a video by Muslims insulting Christianity. I doubt that a video poking fun at the middle eastern equivalent of Palin (who would that be, by the way? Ghaddafi in his younger days?), a politician, would draw the same sort of outrage. Of course, it is also true that insulting Christianity would not provoke violent mobs (at best maybe some some isolated hate crimes), so Americans conservatives still come out ahead here.
I agree in essence, Zack, but that said, it's a question of degree, not type.

Somehow, Islam must reform itself from within and be able to accept that this is a multicultural world. Personally, I picture Islam about where Christendom was somewhere near the end of the first millennium—East against West and the West virulently, the East less so, against the pagans. Eastern and Western Christianity still have their differences though they no longer kill each other over them. The Papal Revolution and the later Reformation thoroughly parted church and state in the West.

Islam awaits both interdenominational peace and the separation of church and state. Is it even possible? It has taken Christianity 2000 years to get where we are today. Islam is what, 600 years or so newer? Does that mean the world must endure another six centuries of Islamic sectarian and fundamentalist strife before Muslims settle down?

Or did Kipling have it right?
Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the two shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat; . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
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Zack Morris
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Zack Morris »

That's a good point about the comparative youth of Islam. The Islamic world -- particularly the middle east, north Africa, and central Asia -- is underdeveloped and going through economic, political, and social crises that create tension between it and the ever-encroaching 'modern world'. Why are they underdeveloped? I'd rather resist the temptation to paint them all with the same brush and blame Islam because there are lots of other underdeveloped parts of the world, some of them quite prone to violence, corruption, and instability.

The situation isn't totally comparable to Christendom ca. AD 1000 and will progress differently. I think there is hope that the situation will stabilize much sooner than a matter of 'centuries'. Things change quickly these days. Centuries of development are compressed into a few generations. That's bound to have explosive results. But even the 'civilized' West has been prone to extreme violence. Relative to WWI and WWII, Islamic extremism looks like petty hooliganism.
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Re: U.S. ambassador dies when Islamists burn consulate in Li

Post by Ibrahim »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote: Maybe you & Azari were right about Libya etc...
Maybe?
My whole argument from the get go was that this will be worst for the Arabs. 4 US diplomats lost their life. As tragic as that is, many more Libyans, Syrians, etc... will also perish. The whole thing is designed to make sure that nothing will rise from the ashes but despair and extremism at is nastiest. I hope the Libyans, and Egyptians, can control this for this sake. And when I say I doubt it it is not some sort of pessimism but reality now being reflected on the ground.

The attacks by extremists are precisely because the Libyan revolution did not fail, and in fact elected a moderate President with few votes for extremist parties. What else is there for extremists to do but resort to murder and terrorism?

A home-grown terror cell attempted to stage an attack in Toronto some years ago. The attack was foiled by informers and the would-be bombers arrested, but had the attack succeeded nobody would claim it was a failure and indictment of Canadian democracy. Nobody looked at 9/11 and said "democracy just doesn't work!"
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Zack Morris wrote:That's a good point about the comparative youth of Islam. The Islamic world -- particularly the middle east, north Africa, and central Asia -- is underdeveloped and going through economic, political, and social crises that create tension between it and the ever-encroaching 'modern world'. Why are they underdeveloped? I'd rather resist the temptation to paint them all with the same brush and blame Islam because there are lots of other underdeveloped parts of the world, some of them quite prone to violence, corruption, and instability.

The situation isn't totally comparable to Christendom ca. AD 1000 and will progress differently. I think there is hope that the situation will stabilize much sooner than a matter of 'centuries'. Things change quickly these days. Centuries of development are compressed into a few generations. That's bound to have explosive results. But even the 'civilized' West has been prone to extreme violence. Relative to WWI and WWII, Islamic extremism looks like petty hooliganism.
Agreed, Zack, my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform. Who knows how the future will unfold, but you are right . . change is compressed, much more rapid than in ages past.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform.
Of what would said "reform" consist? The issues facing countries like e.g. Libya are developmental, economic, and political. Not religious.
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Marcus
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform.
Of what would said "reform" consist? The issues facing countries like e.g. Libya are developmental, economic, and political. Not religious.
Religious (read "world-view) = development, economic & political . . . ;)

If that's not "correct," then you tell me . . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform.
Of what would said "reform" consist? The issues facing countries like e.g. Libya are developmental, economic, and political. Not religious.
Religious (read "world-view) = development, economic & political . . .

If that's not "correct," then you tell me . . .
Clearly your statement assumes some direct relationship, but what specific religious reforms do you think are required?
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform.
Of what would said "reform" consist? The issues facing countries like e.g. Libya are developmental, economic, and political. Not religious.
Religious (read "world-view) = development, economic & political . . .

If that's not "correct," then you tell me . . .
Clearly your statement assumes some direct relationship, but what specific religious reforms do you think are required?
Read my previous posts . . thanks . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform.
Of what would said "reform" consist? The issues facing countries like e.g. Libya are developmental, economic, and political. Not religious.
Religious (read "world-view) = development, economic & political . . .

If that's not "correct," then you tell me . . .
Clearly your statement assumes some direct relationship, but what specific religious reforms do you think are required?
Read my previous posts . . thanks . .

Provide a specific example of a religious reform you think is necessary. Thanks.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Azrael »

The scum miscalculated. I think that the recent events have pissed off too many Libyans. Now the Libyans are motivated to take out the trash.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Ibrahim wrote:Provide a specific example of a religious reform you think is necessary. Thanks.
Reread my previous posts.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Provide a specific example of a religious reform you think is necessary. Thanks.
Reread my previous posts.
Done. Provide a single example of a religious reform you think is necessary.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Azrael »

You two need to go to couples therapy.
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Re: U.S. ambassador dies when Islamists burn consulate in Li

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote: Maybe you & Azari were right about Libya etc...
Maybe?
My whole argument from the get go was that this will be worst for the Arabs. 4 US diplomats lost their life. As tragic as that is, many more Libyans, Syrians, etc... will also perish. The whole thing is designed to make sure that nothing will rise from the ashes but despair and extremism at is nastiest. I hope the Libyans, and Egyptians, can control this for this sake. And when I say I doubt it it is not some sort of pessimism but reality now being reflected on the ground.

The attacks by extremists are precisely because the Libyan revolution did not fail, and in fact elected a moderate President with few votes for extremist parties. What else is there for extremists to do but resort to murder and terrorism?

A home-grown terror cell attempted to stage an attack in Toronto some years ago. The attack was foiled by informers and the would-be bombers arrested, but had the attack succeeded nobody would claim it was a failure and indictment of Canadian democracy. Nobody looked at 9/11 and said "democracy just doesn't work!"
Nothing would make me happier than you being right.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I believe they made Sarah palin based pornos . .
You "believe" correctly.
To be fair, can't we assume that many of her supporters snuck a peak at that issue of Hustler?
After all, I remember reading many comments from Republicans that she was a 'milf'.

But seriously, what does Larry publishing a Palin edition has to do with a $5 movie about a historical figure designed specifically to enflame emotions?
You really have to ask?
Yes I do. Besides, Palin was a 15 minute one hit wonder. The Prophet gets insulted a whole lot more. I am sure Larry would not cut him any slack either. Never mind that he has been dead for 1400 years.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
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Wake up motherfucker
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Marcus
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Azrael wrote:You two need to go to couples therapy.
Done . . used the "ignore" function . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Hans Bulvai wrote: Yes I do. Besides, Palin was a 15 minute one hit wonder. The Prophet gets insulted a whole lot more. I am sure Larry would not cut him any slack either. Never mind that he has been dead for 1400 years.
Aren't over the top insults over the top insults without hedging around though?
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Hans Bulvai wrote:. . Palin was a 15 minute one hit wonder. The Prophet gets insulted a whole lot more. I am sure Larry would not cut him any slack either. Never mind that he has been dead for 1400 years.
With due respect, Hans, Palin is more than a one-hit wonder. But that aside, she is a confessing Christian who wears her faith on her sleeve, and the porn video, as well as offensive to Palin personally, was offensive to all Christians. I take issue with the claim the Muhammad gets more insults than does Christianity, Jesus, or even God Almighty Himself. And even if he did, so what? Are Muslims that thin-skinned?

How would Muslims react if what has been done to Jesus had been done to Muhammed? —Jesus Christ Superstar, Piss Christ, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Da Vinci Code for instance?
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"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
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