Libya after Gaddafi

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Enki
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Enki »

Zack Morris wrote:Apples and oranges, Marcus. A better comparison would have been a video by Muslims insulting Christianity. I doubt that a video poking fun at the middle eastern equivalent of Palin (who would that be, by the way? Ghaddafi in his younger days?), a politician, would draw the same sort of outrage. Of course, it is also true that insulting Christianity would not provoke violent mobs (at best maybe some some isolated hate crimes), so Americans conservatives still come out ahead here.
Ghaddafi as a visionary genius. I find it offensive that you would compare Sarah Palin to him.
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Enki
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Enki »

Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform.
Of what would said "reform" consist? The issues facing countries like e.g. Libya are developmental, economic, and political. Not religious.
A cultural recognition that not every American agrees with racist fools that make a porno?
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Islam is not a race.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Marcus wrote:How would Muslims react if what has been done to Jesus had been done to Muhammad? —Jesus Christ Superstar, Piss Christ, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Da Vinci Code for instance?
The Qu'ran says that Jesus Christ will appear at the end of time to pronounce the final judgement. Not Muhammad.

It clearly places Jesus Christ above Muhammad, even though it considers calling Jesus as a divinity shirk. Islam has a sizable contingent of theological ignorants, as does Christianity. It also says Christians and Muslims are the closest in theology, even though we have strong disagreements.
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Marcus
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Marcus wrote:How would Muslims react if what has been done to Jesus had been done to Muhammad? —Jesus Christ Superstar, Piss Christ, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Da Vinci Code for instance?
The Qu'ran says that Jesus Christ will appear at the end of time to pronounce the final judgement. Not Muhammad.

It clearly places Jesus Christ above Muhammad, even though it considers calling Jesus as a divinity shirk. Islam has a sizable contingent of theological ignorants, as does Christianity. It also says Christians and Muslims are the closest in theology, even though we have strong disagreements.
Did not know that . . that Muslims place Jesus above Muhammed . . thanks. And, yes, I guess every religion has its share of the unlearned.

How does that relate to your quote of my post?
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Ibrahim
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Enki wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Marcus wrote:my comparison between Christendom and Islam was intended only simplistically, only to illustrate Islam's need for reform.
Of what would said "reform" consist? The issues facing countries like e.g. Libya are developmental, economic, and political. Not religious.
A cultural recognition that not every American agrees with racist fools that make a porno?

The Libyans protesting against the attacks and to show support for the US certainly see it that way.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Marcus wrote:How would Muslims react if what has been done to Jesus had been done to Muhammad? —Jesus Christ Superstar, Piss Christ, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Da Vinci Code for instance?
The Qu'ran says that Jesus Christ will appear at the end of time to pronounce the final judgement. Not Muhammad.

It clearly places Jesus Christ above Muhammad, even though it considers calling Jesus as a divinity shirk. Islam has a sizable contingent of theological ignorants, as does Christianity. It also says Christians and Muslims are the closest in theology, even though we have strong disagreements.
Look at it this way: people insult Muhammad every day, deliberately and with the intent of insulting Muslims. Most of the time nothing happens aside from some angry Internet comments. This demonstrates two things, that the attacks on US embassies abroad is not just about the movie, and that offended or not most Muslims seem to have a sense of perspective about being insulted.


Re: Jesus in Islam, he is regarded as both the Messiah and a Prophet. Palestinian scholar and Cambridge professor Tarif Khalidi wrote several English books on the subject of Jesus in Islamic theology.
Last edited by Ibrahim on Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Unfortunately Ibs every media outlet is blaming the movie, except Fox News. Politics makes strange bedfellows.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Marcus wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:. . Palin was a 15 minute one hit wonder. The Prophet gets insulted a whole lot more. I am sure Larry would not cut him any slack either. Never mind that he has been dead for 1400 years.
With due respect, Hans, Palin is more than a one-hit wonder. But that aside, she is a confessing Christian who wears her faith on her sleeve, and the porn video, as well as offensive to Palin personally, was offensive to all Christians. I take issue with the claim the Muhammad gets more insults than does Christianity, Jesus, or even God Almighty Himself. And even if he did, so what? Are Muslims that thin-skinned?

No disrespect to you Marcus but I am not a fan of Palin. She comes off as a fake to me but that is only my personal opinion and since I don't vote, that should not hurt her in the least. But I have to ask, what makes her a good Christian?

As to my remark about insults, I meant that he gets a whole lot more insults than Palin and besides, it is not a comparison really. He is the messagner of a faith that now has 1.5 billion followers. Mrs. Palin isn't even really known outside of our borders. And you are probably right about Christianity, Jesus and God Himself being insulted much more than the Prophet.
How would Muslims react if what has been done to Jesus had been done to Muhammed? —Jesus Christ Superstar, Piss Christ, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Da Vinci Code for instance?
Just turn on your tv for that answer. Aside from the Piss Christ, I fail to see how those examples you mention are in the same league as the Prophet being called a fag, wearing turban bombs, etc... I get disgusted when Jesus gets insulted. I don't mind constructive and civilised questioning and sure as hell don't agree with what is going in the Middle East. For God's sake they are even burning trees down in direct violation of what the Prophet himself has commended; but, he is where Muslims draw the line. There is a lot to be said about the love Muslims have for a man they have never met. As Demon o U once told me, they are not faking. My question to you as a good Christian is, how is it that you (Christians) would allow such insults to be hurled at Jesus? Not saying you have to burn trees down but nothing?

BTW, this penned up rage on display across your tv screens... useless and counterproductive but should not be dismissed as those savage Muslims at it again. I ran across something interesting that I will post in Mr. Perfect's thread. Be sure to take a look.
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Marcus
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:. . Palin was a 15 minute one hit wonder. The Prophet gets insulted a whole lot more. I am sure Larry would not cut him any slack either. Never mind that he has been dead for 1400 years.
With due respect, Hans, Palin is more than a one-hit wonder. But that aside, she is a confessing Christian who wears her faith on her sleeve, and the porn video, as well as offensive to Palin personally, was offensive to all Christians. I take issue with the claim the Muhammad gets more insults than does Christianity, Jesus, or even God Almighty Himself. And even if he did, so what? Are Muslims that thin-skinned?
No disrespect to you Marcus but I am not a fan of Palin. She comes off as a fake to me but that is only my personal opinion and since I don't vote, that should not hurt her in the least. But I have to ask, what makes her a good Christian?

As to my remark about insults, I meant that he gets a whole lot more insults than Palin and besides, it is not a comparison really. He is the messagner of a faith that now has 1.5 billion followers. Mrs. Palin isn't even really known outside of our borders. And you are probably right about Christianity, Jesus and God Himself being insulted much more than the Prophet.

How would Muslims react if what has been done to Jesus had been done to Muhammed? —Jesus Christ Superstar, Piss Christ, The Last Temptation of Christ, The Da Vinci Code for instance?
Just turn on your tv for that answer. Aside from the Piss Christ, I fail to see how those examples you mention are in the same league as the Prophet being called a fag, wearing turban bombs, etc... I get disgusted when Jesus gets insulted. I don't mind constructive and civilised questioning and sure as hell don't agree with what is going in the Middle East. For God's sake they are even burning trees down in direct violation of what the Prophet himself has commended; but, he is where Muslims draw the line. There is a lot to be said about the love Muslims have for a man they have never met. As Demon o U once told me, they are not faking. My question to you as a good Christian is, how is it that you (Christians) would allow such insults to be hurled at Jesus? Not saying you have to burn trees down but nothing?

BTW, this penned up rage on display across your tv screens... useless and counterproductive but should not be dismissed as those savage Muslims at it again. I ran across something interesting that I will post in Mr. Perfect's thread. Be sure to take a look.

Hans, I can well understand how you or anyone could consider Palin a joke, and at some level, especially after John McCain, she might be. However, at a very basic level, Palin is not a joke . . fundamentally she's a decent and tough person. As for how good a Christian she is, I haven't a clue, but that's not the point. The point is that she confesses Christ, and for that confession she's taken a lot of abuse.

And as for Muslims being offended by insults to Muhammed, I have no doubt they are serious, but for the life of me, I can't understand why they go so rabbit-ass crazy over such insults. I don't like Jesus being made fun of, called a fag, and more, but such insults say nothing about Christ and everything about the person making the slur.

I suspect you're a Muslim, and you seem like a decent, rational person. Keep in mind that I've never met a Muslim in person. All I know about Muslims is what I read and see in the media and films, and my impression is that a Muslim in social minority is not necessarily a Muslim in social majority. It's my impression that Muslims in social majority pose a real threat to cultural diversity . . cutting off hands and heads, stoning women, and other like barbarities don't cut it. Have you read Kite Runner? That's the picture I get of Islam.

We Christians used to kill each other West against East, Roman Catholic against Protestant, but we've put that behind us. What are we to make of Muslims killing Muslims? Sunni against Shia and vice versa? It's all well and good to say such goings-on are the product of a minority, but are they really? I dunno . . my impression is that while there must certainly be good and decent Muslims, Islam needs reform . . Islam as it is currently is totally incapable of generating and maintaining a viable, competitive social order in a multicultural world. I greatly suspect that, given the chance, Muslims would like nothing better than to force their religion down our throats, that Muslims take world conquest very seriously, serious to the point of a sword or the muzzle of a rifle.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote: Islam as it is currently is totally incapable of generating and maintaining a viable, competitive social order in a multicultural world. I greatly suspect that, given the chance, Muslims would like nothing better than to force their religion down our throats, that Muslims take world conquest very seriously, serious to the point of a sword or the muzzle of a rifle.
Further ignorant and unsubstantiated nonsense of this stripe for Marcus, who will under no circumstances elaborate on these claims or even attempt to justify them. Simply repeat them.

I'll break this down and explain why the specific arguments are junk:
Marcus wrote: Islam as it is currently is totally incapable of generating and maintaining a viable, competitive social order in a multicultural world.
Historically Islamic states were more tolerant and multicultural than their Christian equivalents, so even if one adopted the rhetoric that "Islam is stuck in the 9th century" that would still admit a level of multiculturalism and coexistence unprecedented until the 20th century elsewhere.
Marcus wrote: I greatly suspect that, given the chance, Muslims would like nothing better than to force their religion down our throats, that Muslims take world conquest very seriously,
Opposite day with this false claim. Western/"Christian" armed forces are occupying parts of Islamic states, and killing the civilians of those states on a regular basis. There is no similar effort at "conquest" undertaken by Islamic states against Western nations.


Marcus wrote: serious to the point of a sword or the muzzle of a rifle.
Aside from forced conversion being logically impossible, it is specifically prohibited in Islam.


But Marcus will not address any of the obviously flaws of his repetitive claims. Merely spam them. It is fundamentally dishonest trolling.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Apollonius »

The janisaries are just a figment of our collective imagination. Furthermore, even if there were a few children forcibly converted by Turks, they obviously didn't have a feel for all the prohibitions you refer to.


India?


How about Spain? Not that Golden Age of Andalus; no, I'm talking about the footnotes and the fine print.



Well, Ib, I won't be sticking around for an argument about this. I don't think there's anything worth arguing about.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Apollonius wrote:The janisaries are just a figment of our collective imagination. Furthermore, even if there were a few children forcibly converted by Turks, they obviously didn't have a feel for all the prohibitions you refer to.
This is, of course, an isolated example of children being raised in a religion not their own, and an example of slavery more than anything else. How do you think black Americans became Protestant Christians? Purchased as chattel en masse and raised in an alien culture. I know you aren't well-read on any of these subjects, but perhaps you at least watched Roots or something?

India?
What of India? Hindus were raised to the highest positions of state during the Mughal empire. Inter-religious violence was an equal-opportunity passtime between Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs, though political domination was the goal, not forced conversion or religious genocide, the first being recognized as impossible and the second as undesirable.




How about Spain? Not that Golden Age of Andalus; no, I'm talking about the footnotes and the fine print.
What about Spain? Conquered in turn by Arab/Berber Muslims who were then displaced by European Crusaders. What happened to Spain's Jewish community, and under which group was it expelled?



Well, Ib, I won't be sticking around for an argument about this.
Of course you won't, because you cannot. Your knowledge of history is, quite obviously, insufficient to discuss these subjects. Thus, you pass through, shout some unsubstantiated nonsense, and leave. Visit anytime, it only benefits my arguments.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Sparky »

[quote="Ibrahim"
Aside from forced conversion being logically impossible, it is specifically prohibited in Islam.
[/quote]
I'm not sure logical impossibility is any sort of impediment to a zealous religious fundamentalist.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Sparky wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Aside from forced conversion being logically impossible, it is specifically prohibited in Islam.
I'm not sure logical impossibility is any sort of impediment to a zealous religious fundamentalist.
:lol: . . .you betcha, Sparky, and then there's always "forced" and "expedient" . . :lol: . . in what world do some of these clowns live . . ?
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Uche Americanus »

I am pinching myself so hard to not say, I warned you guys at the beginning about the futulity of supporting Islamists and terrorists in the misguided hope that a new era is about to descend in the Muslim world. Here we are again and it is not clear to me that we have learned anything.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Marcus »

Uche Americanus wrote:I am pinching myself so hard to not say, I warned you guys at the beginning about the futulity of supporting Islamists and terrorists in the misguided hope that a new era is about to descend in the Muslim world. Here we are again and it is not clear to me that we have learned anything.
Hey, Uche, good to see you.

Tell it to Obama . . . :oops:
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Uche Americanus »

Thanks Marcus. I did. And I think he knows better now. Next stop, is to disengage from the Turkish and Saudi effort to change the government in Damascus. Bashiru Assad is now laughing his head off.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Uche Americanus wrote:I am pinching myself so hard to not say, I warned you guys at the beginning about the futulity of supporting Islamists and terrorists in the misguided hope that a new era is about to descend in the Muslim world. Here we are again and it is not clear to me that we have learned anything.
This is a deliberate misrepresentation of events in Libya. The fact is that a moderate candidate won in an open election, and these terrorists attacks are taking place precisely because the extremist groups have been frustrated in their effort to gain control over the country.

Indeed, declaring Libya a failure and advocating disassociating with them as a result of the attack plays right into the hands of the terrorists and demonstrates your susceptibility to manipulation.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Sparky wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Aside from forced conversion being logically impossible, it is specifically prohibited in Islam.
I'm not sure logical impossibility is any sort of impediment to a zealous religious fundamentalist.
Theology (noun): the discipline of making the irrational and religious sound logical.


The impossibility of forcing conversions certainly doesn't cause extremists to embrace ecumenism, but they more often kill people who don't believe what they believe than try to convert them. Killing is more their forte than debate.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote:
Uche Americanus wrote:I am pinching myself so hard to not say, I warned you guys at the beginning about the futulity of supporting Islamists and terrorists in the misguided hope that a new era is about to descend in the Muslim world. Here we are again and it is not clear to me that we have learned anything.
This is a deliberate misrepresentation of events in Libya. The fact is that a moderate candidate won in an open election, and these terrorists attacks are taking place precisely because the extremist groups have been frustrated in their effort to gain control over the country.

Indeed, declaring Libya a failure and advocating disassociating with them as a result of the attack plays right into the hands of the terrorists and demonstrates your susceptibility to manipulation.
Why can I hear Dick Cheney's voice in my head when I read Ib's words?
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Mr. Perfect »

BTW Ibs, why would people attack the United States just because of an election outcome?
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Jnalum Persicum »

.


Mr Blowback in Benghazi

.
. . three amigos. John McCain, warning that "the blood of Americans is on Qaddafi's hands," has called for arming the insurgents, whom Joe Lieberman has praised as "freedom fighters."
.

and the result (thinking they nailed it), not knowing things just startin

kirk libya -thumb-500x302-40008.jpeg
kirk libya -thumb-500x302-40008.jpeg (24.44 KiB) Viewed 1158 times


They have a fleet of helicopters and small reconnaissance aircraft with American crews, but they don’t dare take off because it is feared that al Qaeda gunmen will shoot them down with FIM-92 Stinger anti-air missiles smuggled into Sinai from Libya.


told you guys, told you


Qaddaaaafi, where are you , Pleaaaase come back :lol:


.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Been busy doing stuff
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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