Libya after Gaddafi

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Hans Bulvai
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Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Libyan rebel leader sues Britain over rendition ordeal
A Libyan military commander and rebel leader has launched legal proceedings against the British government over his rendition and alleged "barbaric" treatment meted out to him and his pregnant wife.

Abdel Hakim Belhadj, head of the Tripoli Military Council and a former leader of the militant Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, is suing ministers and MI6 for the part he claims they played in secretly sending him and his wife to Libya in March 2004.

Belhadj was then living in China with his wife, Fatima Bouchar.

They decided to seek asylum in Britain but were detained and deported to Malaysia, where they were immediately taken into the custody. They were told they would be allowed to travel to the UK via Bangkok. They were then handed over to the US authorities and taken to what they say was a US secret prison.

In between interrogation sessions, Belhadj says, he was hung by his wrists from hooks in his cell for prolonged periods while hooded and blindfolded, and viciously beaten.

The couple were then rendered by the US to Libya. Belhadj says he was hooded and shackled to the floor of the plane in a stress position, unable to sit or lie during the entire 17-hour flight, which is believed to have stopped to refuel in Diego Garcia, the British Indian Ocean territory. Neither he nor his wife was aware that the other was on the plane.

In Libya, Belhadj was detained for six years in some of the country's most brutal jails and was interrogated by "foreign" agents. He says he was savagely beaten, hung from walls, and cut off from human contact and daylight before being sentenced to death during a 15-minute trial about four years into his detention.

Belhadj – also known as Abu Abdullah al-Sadiq, a commander of anti-Gaddafi forces in the 2011 Libyan conflict – has instructed the law firm Leigh Day to sue the British government, with the help of the legal charity Reprieve.

Belhadj is the second Libyan dissident to launch legal action against the British government in recent months. In October, Sami al-Saadi launched an action to claim damages from the UK after a cache of secret documents discovered in Tripoli exposed the pivotal role played by MI6 in his rendition to one of Muammar Gaddafi's jails.

Cori Crider, Reprieve's legal director, said: "Mr Belhadj was totally willing to come to an agreement with the British government. He made it absolutely plain that what he cared about was an open apology, and for those who tortured him and his wife to be brought to justice."

Sapna Malik, from Leigh Day, said: "The barbaric treatment which our clients describe, both at the hands of the Americans and the Libyans, is beyond comprehension, and yet it appears that the UK was responsible for setting off this torturous chain of events."

Britain's role in the Belhadj renditions was revealed in a letter from Sir Mark Allen, former director of counter-terrorism at MI6, to Moussa Koussa, the head of the Libyan intelligence agency at the time.

In a letter dated 18 March 2004, Allen said: "I congratulate you on the safe arrival of Abu Abdullah al-Sadiq. This was the least we could do for you and for Libya to demonstrate the remarkable relationship we have built over the years. I am so glad. I was grateful to you for helping the officer we sent out last week."

The Foreign Office says the inquiry set up under a former appeal court judge, Sir Peter Gibson, will consider whether Britain was involved in, or aware of, the improper treatment and rendition of detainees.

Whitehall officials say MI6 told ministers about the rendition of Belhadj and his wife, and will say so in evidence to the Gibson inquiry. However, most of the evidence to Gibson will be held in secret.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Libya to review foreign contracts signed under Kadhafi
Libya will review all contracts signed with foreign companies by the late leader Moamer Kadhafi's regime to ensure its best interests are guaranteed, the country's deputy premier said on Tuesday.

Mustafa Abu Shagur was speaking after meeting France's minister of state for foreign trade, Pierre Lellouche, who announced that several French companies had just been awarded new contracts.

"We want French companies to come (to Libya), but on the basis of transparency and competitiveness with other companies," Abu Shagur said.

"For that reason, all old accords and treaties must be reviewed to determine if they are really in the interest of the Libyan people."

For his part, Lellouche announced that Libya had awarded new contracts to Air France, Egis and Alstom.

Air France Industries will repair airliners damaged during the months of fighting to oust Kadhafi belonging to Libyan Airlines and Afriqiyah.

He added that talks were under way with Airbus over the delivery of 11 aircraft ordered by the two carriers in 2007.

Lellouche, who ended a trip to Libya as head of a delegation of some 100 business people, added that the Egis group had received a contract for the redevelopment of Misrata, one of the Libyan cities most heavily damaged in the war.

And he said the Alstom group received a contract to provide equipment to the Libyan electricity company Gecol.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Mustafa Abu Shagur was speaking after meeting France's minister of state for foreign trade, Pierre Lellouche, who announced that several French companies had just been awarded new contracts.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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For his part, Lellouche announced that Libya had awarded new contracts to Air France, Egis and Alstom.

Air France Industries will repair airliners damaged during the months of fighting to oust Kadhafi belonging to Libyan Airlines and Afriqiyah.

He added that talks were under way with Airbus over the delivery of 11 aircraft ordered by the two carriers in 2007.

Lellouche, who ended a trip to Libya as head of a delegation of some 100 business people, added that the Egis group had received a contract for the redevelopment of Misrata, one of the Libyan cities most heavily damaged in the war.

And he said the Alstom group received a contract to provide equipment to the Libyan electricity company Gecol.

This all sounds pretty reasonable and on the level for the world of major government contract bidding. Airbus is not an obscure choice for airliners.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 28,00.html

Too Soon for Ideologies

There was a militia in nearly every city district -- over 100 in all. Now, tens of thousands of fighters have to be lured out of their pick-ups. Most of them are young and were able to taste the poison of power during the war. "We offer them management training," Nadshih says. "Then they can return to their old jobs, but are ranked one level higher. That's the least we can do."

Gadhafi turned Libya into a chaotic country, played the people against each other and allowed the cities to decay.

It's still too early to fight over ideologies, says Nadshih. First, the foundation has to be laid, a modicum of reconstruction. "You Europeans collaborated with our autocrats for decades -- don't start talking about the danger of Islamism now. I would also rather have liberal political parties. But the Islamists are there anyway, whether we like it or not." Even Europe's communists eventually became upright social democrats, he argues.

Perhaps Islamism, that lifeline to Arab-Islamic culture, actually has its counterpart in Europe. Perhaps it can be compared with rebellious Catholicism in Poland and with the renaissance of orthodoxy in Russia.

In any case, people are thirsting for debate. The newspapers are already sold out by noon.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Alexis »

Hans Bulvai wrote:It's still too early to fight over ideologies, says Nadshih. First, the foundation has to be laid, a modicum of reconstruction. "You Europeans collaborated with our autocrats for decades -- don't start talking about the danger of Islamism now. I would also rather have liberal political parties. But the Islamists are there anyway, whether we like it or not." Even Europe's communists eventually became upright social democrats, he argues.
Perhaps Islamism, that lifeline to Arab-Islamic culture, actually has its counterpart in Europe. Perhaps it can be compared with rebellious Catholicism in Poland and with the renaissance of orthodoxy in Russia.

In any case, people are thirsting for debate. The newspapers are already sold out by noon.
Quite reasonable, indeed.

A few years from now at most, a few months from now at least, it will be apparent whether the direction Libya is taking is a healthy one or not. Too early to comment usefully on this topic.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Conservative Muslims and "Islamists" will have to be included in any democratic or representative government in any Arab country. It's not clear why this is even objectionable unless you assume from the get go that anything "Islamic" is bad, and the more Islamic something is the worse it is. Granted many have the view, but it's unclear why Arab Muslims would share it.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Loving that Arab Spring.

http://news.yahoo.com/libya-names-head- ... 32609.html
TRIPOLI (Reuters) - Libya risks sliding into civil war unless it cracks down on the rival militias which filled the vacuum left by Muammar Gaddafi's downfall, the head of the interim administration said after an outbreak of violence in the capital.

Mustafa Abdel Jalil, chairman of the National Transitional Council (NTC), issued the stark warning in response to a gun battle between militias in one of Tripoli's busiest streets which killed four fighters.

More than two months after anti-Gaddafi fighters captured and killed the former dictator, Libya's new rulers still struggle to exert their authority as rival militia leaders refuse to cede control of their fighters and hand in their arms.

"We are now between two bitter options," Abdel Jalil told a gathering in the eastern city of Benghazi late Tuesday.

"We deal with these violations (clashes between militias) strictly and put the Libyans in a military confrontation which we don't accept, or we split and there will be a civil war."

"If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands."

The militias, drawn from dozens of different towns and ideological camps, led the nine-month uprising, backed by NATO air strikes, to end Gaddafi's 42-year rule. Now though, they are reluctant to disband and lay down their arms.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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"If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands."
Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
"If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands."
Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.

That's why Italy never formed a republic after stringing up Mussolini and suffers from chaos and civil war to this day.....
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Azrael »

Considering there hasn't been large scale retribution against Gaddafi's tribe, things have been quite civilized, considering the barbarity of the Gaddafi regime.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
"If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands."
Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.

That's why Italy never formed a republic after stringing up Mussolini and suffers from chaos and civil war to this day.....
What's Italy got to do with it?
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
"If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands."
Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.

That's why Italy never formed a republic after stringing up Mussolini and suffers from chaos and civil war to this day.....
What's Italy got to do with it?
What has Gaddafi's unseemly death got to do with future prospects for Libya? If Libya ends up a basket case it seems more logical that it would be a consequence of decades of misrule by the dictator, not the ignoble lynching of the dictator.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

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I guess that lets George Bush off that hook.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Alexis »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.
That's why Italy never formed a republic after stringing up Mussolini and suffers from chaos and civil war to this day.....
What's Italy got to do with it?
This
(warning: shocking image, not for children)
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Alexis wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.
That's why Italy never formed a republic after stringing up Mussolini and suffers from chaos and civil war to this day.....
What's Italy got to do with it?
This
(warning: shocking image, not for children)
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
"If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands."
Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.

That's why Italy never formed a republic after stringing up Mussolini and suffers from chaos and civil war to this day.....
What's Italy got to do with it?
What has Gaddafi's unseemly death got to do with future prospects for Libya? If Libya ends up a basket case it seems more logical that it would be a consequence of decades of misrule by the dictator, not the ignoble lynching of the dictator.
Dictators hanging and being killed do not make events similar. Italy is in no way the same as Libya. There is an ocean of difference. Tribal divisions among Libyans is but one example that will have a huge influence in shaping Libya's future.

Current events in Libya, and Gaddafi's unseemly death, more closely resemble events in Iraq in the 50's.. The history of the Arabs since the fall of the Ottoman empire and the current decay in the cultural fabric, as a whole though many exceptions exist, is not one that gives any indication of improvement in the near future.

The way Gaddafi was treated right before and after his death speak volumes about what will come. How was the way he was treated any different than what he meted out? Do you really think that that was the dividing line between old bad and new good?

And you cannot separate religion from all of this in Libya, arguably contrary to Italy during the hanging of their dictator. There are things that defy all Islamic teachings as it relates to a dead body. You can't ignore the small details and dismiss them as well it is his fault for the Libyans being savages. They were before him, during him and will continue to be so for a long time. Sad to say...
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote:
"If there's no security, there will be no law, no development and no elections," he said. "People are taking the law into their own hands."
Kinda like killing the dictator and parading him around town against all decency and morals. Islamic and otherwise.

That's why Italy never formed a republic after stringing up Mussolini and suffers from chaos and civil war to this day.....
What's Italy got to do with it?
What has Gaddafi's unseemly death got to do with future prospects for Libya? If Libya ends up a basket case it seems more logical that it would be a consequence of decades of misrule by the dictator, not the ignoble lynching of the dictator.
Dictators hanging and being killed do not make events similar. Italy is in no way the same as Libya. There is an ocean of difference.

I never said they were the same. I'm dismissing your repetitive harping on the killing of Gaddafi as relevant to Libya's future prospects.


Tribal divisions among Libyans is but one example that will have a huge influence in shaping Libya's future.
Brilliant. Somebody informing us that the Arab world is riven by tribal divisions.

Current events in Libya, and Gaddafi's unseemly death, more closely resemble events in Iraq in the 50's.. The history of the Arabs since the fall of the Ottoman empire and the current decay in the cultural fabric, as a whole though many exceptions exist, is not one that gives any indication of improvement in the near future.
Yes, I'm familiar with this argument. Arabs will act like Arabs, and we all know that means murdering one another along tribal lines. Libyans are mostly Arab, QED...


The way Gaddafi was treated right before and after his death speak volumes about what will come.
False and illogical, as the Italian example effortlessly demonstrates. I can assure you that the desire to kill Gaddafi existed across all tribal or other divisions in Libyan society. It bears no relation to the "Arabs are tribal" argument.

How was the way he was treated any different than what he meted out? Do you really think that that was the dividing line between old bad and new good?
I never understood this specific complain. What's the argument exactly? That if you kill a murderous dictator then, like him, you're a killer, so you're no better than the dictator? Who cares about that kind of armchair pacifist moralizing? Certainly not people who had to live under a dictator.
And you cannot separate religion from all of this in Libya, arguably contrary to Italy during the hanging of their dictator. There are things that defy all Islamic teachings as it relates to a dead body. You can't ignore the small details and dismiss them as well it is his fault for the Libyans being savages.
Lot of major problems with this paragraph. First, what are you trying to say about religion? Muslims are supposed to respect dead bodies but Catholic Italians aren't? It doesn't make any sense.

Then you're talking about all Libyans being "savages" when, as far as I know, not everyone in Libya was present when Gaddafi was killed? Is it more or less than, for example, the number of Americans currently incarcerated for violent crimes? Are "Americans savages?" Be serious.


They were before him, during him and will continue to be so for a long time. Sad to say...
What would you call a statement to the effect that "group of people X are, always were, and always will be savages?"
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.

Pro-Gaddafi forces capture Bani Walid, 5 NTC troops killed


Overwhelming of Libyans are pro Qaddafi

and

Things not done yet, not at all

.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Ibrahim »

Infighting between militias over regional control after the revolution, not to mention frustration with the NTC so far, as well as the struggle of some former Gaddafi supporters to retain some power in the new government have all resulted in varying degrees of violence. This does not mean that there is some backlash and yearning for the former regime.

Overwhelming of Libyans are pro Qaddafi
Comical lie.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Ibrahim wrote:.
Overwhelming of Libyans are pro Qaddafi
Comical lie.

.

Seems you believe Libyans craving for Sharia, cutting thong & hand, 4 wife and all those goodies in Koran

or

maybe

they love, to be again, colonies of west, oil flowing not even metered, let alone paid for

well

yes

comical lie

.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Days not weeks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... 8Q20120123
Fighters loyal to Libya's overthrown leader Muammar Gaddafi took control of a town south-east of the capital on Monday, flying their green flags in defiance of the country's fragile new government.

The fightback by Gaddafi supporters defeated in Libya's civil war, though unlikely to spread elsewhere, added to the problems besetting a government which in the past week has been reeling from one crisis to another. Gaddafi himself was captured and killed in October after weeks on the run.

Accounts from the town of Bani Walid, about 200 km (120 miles) from Tripoli, described armed Gaddafi supporters attacking the barracks of the pro-government militia in the town and then forcing them to fall back.

"They control the town now. They are roaming the town," said a fighter with the 28th May militia, loyal to Libya's ruling National Transitional Council (NTC), which came under attack.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

And then there is this...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 91566.html
Nato accused of war crimes in Libya
New report criticises Western forces for bombing civilian targets in Sirte during conflict
  • An independent report published by Middle Eastern human rights groups says there is evidence that war crimes and human rights violations were committed by all the participants – Nato, rebel forces and those loyal to Colonel Gaddafi – in last year's Libyan uprising.

    The report, published today by the Arab Organisation for Human Rights together and the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights with the International Legal Assistance Consortium, follows extensive fact-finding work carried out by law and war crimes experts. While the document stresses that findings are not conclusive, it adds weight to growing concerns about violations committed by all sides in the conflict.

    After interviews with eye-witnesses and victims of attacks, and after visiting areas targeted by Nato, the Independent Civil Society Mission to Libya report highlights the issue of Nato classifying some civilian sites as military targets during its operations.

    Nato was authorised by the UN Security Council to protect civilians in Libya from attacks by the Gaddafi regime during the uprising of last year, but drew criticism for what many described as going further than the terms of the mandate.

    Raji Sourani, the head of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who took part in the Libya mission, said: "We are not making judgements – that is not the mission mandate. But we have reason to think that there were some war crimes perpetrated.

    "We are asking questions, especially about what happened in Sirte," referring to Nato strikes in that city last September, when 47 civilians were killed. Eye-witnesses in the city told report investigators that civilians converged at the site of Nato strikes on two trucks, and were subsequently killed by a third missile.

    Whether or not this amounts to a war crime, the revelation, if proved, will serve as an embarrassment to the Alliance, which stressed its efforts to avoid civilian deaths. Separately, the International Criminal Court's chief prosecutor, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, said last November that Nato forces would be investigated along with the two Libyan sides of the conflict for breaches of the laws of war.

    Late last year, Nato's Secretary-General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said: "We have carried out this operation very carefully, without confirmed civilian casualties."

    A Nato official said yesterday that, despite the Alliance's best efforts – including the cancellation of two-thirds of intended strikes because of the risk of casualties – its "goal of zero civilian casualties is highly unlikely".

    The official added: "Nato is working closely with the UN and with Libyan counterparts – they are the best place to have these concerns looked at and we have already started to provide information to help with that. If anyone else presents these concerns to us, we will do the same. We would like the opportunity to work with them and go through our data, to see if that can help allay concerns and determine what actually did happen."

    Today's report observes that establishing what happened in Nato strikes in Libya was potentially hindered by the "apparent desire" among those interviewed on the ground "to protect Nato, or avoid any direct or indirect criticism".

    The UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-moon, last year rejected claims that Nato had exceeded its mandate in Libya: "Security Council resolution 1973, I believe, was strictly enforced within the limit, within the mandate," he said.

    The investigation also set out to probe alleged violations committed by former opposition forces allied to the National Transitional Council. As well as evidence of killing, torturing, detention and ill-treatment of individuals who may have been loyal to the former regime, the mission examines the forced displacement of suspected "enemies of the revolution" – especially in Tawergha.

    Reports described Tawergha, near Misrata, as a "ghost town" – 30,000 residents had been driven out of their homes in what looked like an act of revenge and collective punishment carried out by anti-Gaddafi fighters.

    Addressing such violations, the report quotes a senior military commander in Tripoli, who says: "What I fear most now are the revolutionaries themselves." The group's plan to follow up today's report with similar investigations in Syria and Yemen.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Hans Bulvai wrote:.

And then there is this...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 91566.html
.

Nato accused of war crimes in Libya

New report criticises Western forces for bombing civilian targets in Sirte during conflict

.
.
Hans ,

why you bother

Who cares about civilian, let alone Libyan or Arab civilian

War Crimes :lol:

come on, Hans, come on

War Crime do not apply in that space and to those creatures

matter of fact, Libyans or Arabs or Muslims not among human species

they do not have any human rights

but

no hurt feeling

tragedy is

they do not have even any animal rights

:lol:

come on Hans, come on


.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Well the accusers are a Middle Eastern (and a non-Israeli) organization. Must be a lie anyway.
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Re: Libya after Gaddafi

Post by Mr. Perfect »

But it's better than Qaddafi right Ib? More Arab Spring please. :)

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1
Libya's regular army and array of militias have been torturing loyalists of slain dictator Moamer Kadhafi, several of whom have been killed in custody, human rights groups charged on Thursday.

Amnesty International said that despite promises, Libya's new rulers have made "no progress to stop the use of torture", as Doctors Without Borders suspended its work in the third-largest city Misrata over similar claims.

Their accusations come after a top UN official raised concerns that militias composed of former rebels who helped topple Kadhafi were posing an increasing security risk as they repeatedly clashed with each other.

"Several detainees have died after being subjected to torture in Libya in recent weeks and months amid widespread torture and ill-treatment of suspected pro-Kadhafi fighters and loyalists," London-based Amnesty said in a statement.
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