Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby monster_gardener » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:27 pm

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This is a thread for posts about the Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines....
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Does the Koran Make More Sense in Syriac....

Postby monster_gardener » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:31 pm

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January 16, 2008
The Great Koran Controversy: Will Muslim Martyrs Get 72 Raisins Instead of Virgins, & Other Speculations

Mosques_1_2_2 According to an Islam tradition, Muslim martyrs will go to paradise and marry 72 black-eyed virgins. But some Koran scholars point to a less sexy paradise. While beautifully written, Islamic texts are often obscure. The Arabic language was born as a written language with the Koran, and growing evidence suggests that many of the words were Syriac or Aramaic.

Specifically, the Koran says martyrs going to heaven will get “hur,” and the word was taken by early commentators to mean “virgins,” hence those 72 concubines. But in Aramaic, hur actually meant “white” and was commonly used to specifically mean “white grapes.”

The exact number of virgins (or raisins) is not specified in Koran, but the number 72 comes from a quotation of Muhammad recorded in one of the lesser-known Hadith. ("Hadith" is an Arabic word meaning traditions.) After Muhammad's death, several collections of his deeds and sayings were collected to form the Hadith, which is the second most authoritative document is Islam, after the Koran.

The philologist "Christoph Luxenburg", (who always uses a pseudonym for security reasons) notes that grapes would actually make more sense, because the text compares them to crystal and pearls, and because contemporary accounts have paradise abounding with fruit, especially white grapes.

Okay, so for the sake of argument, lets say that Luxenburg is right and martyrs will get some grapes rather than young maidens, but what’s the big fuss? The real controversy is the notion that translations of Islamic holy text, including the Koran, have ever existed in the first place.

While the Bible has been rigorously, often even brutally, picked apart by scholars of every kind, the West has carefully avoided doing the same with the Koran. In the United States, where Arab and Islamic Studies rely on funding from the Gulf States, an interest in Koranic criticism is the foolproof way to commit career suicide. So for all intents and purposes, every word of the Koran came straight from heaven when Mohammed directly transcribed what the angel Gabriel told him to.

But now a small group at the University of the Saarland and a handful of others, are daring to raise their voice that the Koran’s origins actually have quite an interesting history. If you told a Christian scholar that Jesus didn’t actually write the bible, but that it is a collection of eclectic texts from a wide variety of ancient writings spanning centuries that were somewhat randomly compiled into the Bible as we know it today, after much debate and bickering at the Council of Nicene, and they’ll probably nod their head in agreement. Most Christian scholars have finally come to grips with the fact that their Holy Book was written by a lot of different authors with differing religious opinions and interpretations, however inspired those men may have been. However, tell a devout Muslim that Mohammed may not have actually written every word of the Koran straight from the mouth of the angel Gabriel…and well, you’re asking for trouble.

Indeed, the recent news that a secret archive of ancient Islamic texts had surfaced after 60 years of suppression raised a storm of controversy. Andrew Higgins' Wall Street Journal report that the photographic record of Koranic manuscripts, supposedly destroyed during World War II but occulted by a scholar of alleged Nazi sympathies, is like a real life mixture of the Da Vinci Code with a dash of Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail. The story of the photographic archive of the Bavarian Academy of Sciences, now ensconced in a Berlin vault, appears to be case of life imitating truly art. Somehow even the Nazis have found their way into this convoluted history. “I hate those guys!" as Indiana Jones so famously said.

The Encyclopedia of Islam (1982) observes, "The closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Koran in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." The Koran alone is the revelation of Islam. Understandably, for a devout follower of Islam, there is no room for holes to be poked as to the origins of the Koran,

But what if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century? What if there was proof that the holy book was actually redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?

Scholars already knew that variant copies of the Koran exist, including some found in 1972 in a paper grave at Sa'na in Yemen, the subject of a cover story in the January 1999 Atlantic Monthly. Before the Yemeni authorities shut the door to Western scholars, two German academics, Gerhard R Puin and H C Graf von Bothmer, were able to make 35,000 microfilm copies, which remain at the University of the Saarland. The German archive includes photocopies of manuscripts as old as 700 AD is poised to provide more evidence of variation in the Koran.

The history of the archive is perhaps the most fascinating part of the story, however. It is not clear why its existence was hidden for sixty years, or why it has come to light now, or when scholars will have free access to it. According to Higgins' account on the night of April 24, 1944, British air force bombers hammered a former Jesuit college housing the Bavarian Academy of Science. The 16th-century building crumpled in the inferno. Among the treasures lost, later lamented Anton Spitaler, an Arabic scholar at the academy, was a unique photo archive of ancient manuscripts of the Koran.

The 450 rolls of film had been assembled before the war for a bold venture: a study of the evolution of the Koran, the text Muslims view as the verbatim transcript of God's word. However, the wartime destruction made the project "outright impossible", Spitaler wrote in the 1970s.

There was just one little problem; Spitaler was lying. The cache of photos survived, and he had it all along. The Koran research project buried for more than 60 years has risen from the grave. Why Spitaler concealed the archive is unknown, but Koranic critics who challenge the received Muslim account suspect his motives.

"The whole period after 1945 was poisoned by the Nazis," says Gunter Luling, a scholar who was drummed out of his university in the 1970s after he put forward heterodox theories about the Koran's origins. His doctoral thesis argued that the Koran was lifted in part from Christian hymns. Blackballed by Spitaler, Luling lost his teaching job and launched a fruitless six-year court battle to be reinstated. Feuding over the Koran, he says, "ruined my life".

He wrote books and articles at home, funded by his wife, who took a job in a pharmacy. Asked by a French journal to write a paper on German Arabists, Luling went to Berlin to examine wartime records. Germany's prominent postwar Arabic scholars, he says, "were all connected to the Nazis".

But why on Earth would the Nazis care to suppress Koranic criticism? Some scholars believe the answer lies in their alliance with Islamist leaders, who shared their hatred of the Jews and also sought leverage against the British in the Middle East. Jeffrey Goldberg reviewed the most recent of many books on this subject, Matthias Kuntzel’s Jihad and Jew-Hatred, January 13 in the New York Times.

Kuntzel makes a bold and consequential argument: the dissemination of European models of anti-Semitism among Muslims was not haphazard, but an actual project of the Nazi Party, meant to turn Muslims against Jews and Zionism. He says that in the years before World War II, two Muslim leaders in particular willingly and knowingly carried Nazi ideology directly to the Muslim masses. They were Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, and the Egyptian proto-Islamist Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood.

It may be a very long time before the contents of the Bavarian archive are known. Some Koranic critics, notably the pseudonymous scholar "Ibn Warraq", claim that Professor Angelika Neuwirth, the archive's custodian, has denied access to scholars who stray from the traditional interpretation. Neuwirth admits that she has had the archive since 1990. She has 18 years of funding to study the Bavarian archive, and it is not clear who else will be allowed access to it.

In 2005, Puin published a collection of articles under the title, Die dunklen Anfange. Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und fruhen Geschichte des Islam ("The dark beginnings: new research on the origin and early history of Islam," Hans Schiller Verlag, 2005). This drew on the work of Luxenburg, who believes the incomprehensible passages in the Koran were written in Syriac-Aramaic rather than Arabic. The Koran, according to the research of Puin and his associates, copied a great deal of extant Christian material.

Neuwirth has led the attack on "Christoph Luxenburg" and other Koranic critics who dispute the traditional Muslim account. According to Higgins, "Ms Neuwirth, the Berlin Koran expert, and Mr Marx, her research director, have tried to explain the project to the Muslim world in trips to Iran, Turkey, Syria and Morocco. When a German newspaper trumpeted their work last fall on its front page and predicted that it would 'overthrow rulers and topple kingdoms', Mr Marx called Arab television network al-Jazeera and other media to deny any assault on the tenets of Islam."

Despite her best efforts to reassure Islamic opinion, Higgins reports, even she has stepped on Islam’s toes. "Ms Neuwirth, though widely regarded as respectful of Islamic tradition, got sideswiped by Arab suspicion of Western scholars. She was fired from a teaching post in Jordan, she says, for mentioning a radical revisionist scholar during a lecture in Germany."

Some critics argue that by refusing to discuss the origin of the Koran, the Islamic world is forced to adopt an openly irrational stance, employing its power to intimidate scholars and thwart the search for truth. Christian leaders say they would like to have more dialogue with Muslims, but that there isn’t a basis for it.

Jean-Louis Cardinal Tauran, who directs the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, told the French daily La Croix, "Muslims do not accept discussion about the Koran, because they say it was written under the dictates of God. With such an absolutist interpretation, it's difficult to discuss the contents of the faith."

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Related Galaxy posts:

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Links:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/books ... atred.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1200087 ... anner_left

http://www.aina.org/news/20080114125430.htm

http://ko.offroadpakistan.com/religion/ ... rgins.html


http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/20 ... koran.html
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The Achtiname of Muhammad

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:14 pm

Image



They may have a profitable business model, but ISIS and other Muslim extremists who persecute Christians are disobeying a direct order from Muhammad, the founder of Islam.

Specifically, in 626 AD, Muhammad issued The Achtiname of Muhammad, also known as the Covenant or (Holy) Testament (Testamentum) of the Prophet Muhammad.

The Achtiname – shown above – ordered Muslims to protect and defend Christians, and condemned as sinners Muslims who mistreated Christians:

This is a letter which was issued by Mohammed, Ibn Abdullah, the Messenger, the Prophet, the Faithful, who is sent to all the people as a trust on the part of God to all His creatures, that they may have no plea against God hereafter. Verily God is the Mighty, the Wise. This letter is directed to the embracers of Islam, as a covenant given to the followers of Nazarene [i.e. Christians] in the East and West, the far and near, the Arabs and foreigners, the known and the unknown.

This letter contains the oath given unto them, and he who disobeys that which is therein will be considered a disobeyer and a transgressor to that whereunto he is commanded. He will be regarded as one who has corrupted the oath of God, disbelieved His Testament, rejected His Authority, despised His Religion, and made himself deserving of His Curse, whether he is a Sultan or any other believer of Islam. Whenever monks, devotees and pilgrims gather together, whether in a mountain or valley, or den, or frequented place, or plain, or church, or in houses of worship, verily we are [at the] back of them and shall protect them, and their properties and their morals, by Myself, by My Friends and by My Assistants, for they are of My Subjects and under My Protection.

I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.

No one is allowed to plunder the pilgrims, or destroy or spoil any of their churches, or houses of worship, or take any of the things contained within these houses and bring it to the houses of Islam. And he who takes away anything therefrom, will be one who has corrupted the oath of God, and, in truth, disobeyed His Messenger.

Poll-taxes should not be put upon their judges, monks, and those whose occupation is the worship of God; nor is any other thing to be taken from them, whether it be a fine, a tax or any unjust right. Verily I shall keep their compact, wherever they may be, in the sea or on the land, in the East or West, in the North or South, for they are under My Protection and the testament of My Safety, against all things which they abhor.

No taxes or tithes should be received from those who devote themselves to the worship of God in the mountains, or from those who cultivate the Holy Lands. No one has the right to interfere with their affairs, or bring any action against them. Verily this is for aught else and not for them; rather, in the seasons of crops, they should be given a Kadah for each Ardab of wheat (about five bushels and a half) as provision for them, and no one has the right to say to them this is too much, or ask them to pay any tax.

As to those who possess properties, the wealthy and merchants, the poll-tax to be taken from them must not exceed twelve drachmas a head per year [according to Wikipedia, about 200 modern U.S. dollars].

They shall not be imposed upon by anyone to undertake a journey, or to be forced to go to wars or to carry arms; for the Islams have to fight for them. Do no dispute or argue with them, but deal according to the verse recorded in the Koran, to wit: ‘Do not dispute or argue with the People of the Book but in that which is best’ [29:46]. Thus they will live favored and protected from everything which may offend them by the Callers to religion (Islam), wherever they may be and in any place they may dwell.

Should any Christian woman be married to a Musulman [i.e. Muslim], such marriage must not take place except after her consent, and she must not be prevented from going to her church for prayer. Their churches must be honored and they must not be withheld from building churches or repairing convents.

They must not be forced to carry arms or stones; but the Islams must protect them and defend them against others. It is positively incumbent upon every one of the Islam nation not to contradict or disobey this oath until the Day of Resurrection and the end of the world.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-26/dear-muslims-if-you-persecute-christians-youre-violating-direct-order-muhammad

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Parodite » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:36 pm

Nonc, I think those Egyptian monks hired a Jewish lawyer to forge the document in an effort to protect themselves of what was about come.
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:15 pm

2:62 (Asad) VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians [49] -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. [50]
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:28 pm

Bukhari 009.088.206 - Afflictions and the End of the World - - - -
Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman

The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition. You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the(Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to Bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state."


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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Parodite » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:17 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
2:62 (Asad) VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians [49] -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. [50]


So, Jews and Christians who do not believe in the Last Day (which one?) or "who do not do good deeds" - which is multi-interpretable in practice and handy in arbitrarily judging people as unclean or guilty as a pretext for severe punishement, subjugation or even death - have no good future at all under Islam.

To Hell with them together with the apostates, polytheists and kufar! Inferior scum! But for those who believe and follow the rules of The Big Bully in the Sky... there is candy and bliss. So it it promised. But just look around...

There are other verses besides the one you quoted that are opposite in spirit. The Quran is so full of moral contradictions and styles that if one would insist it to be a coherent piece of holy literature directly from the mouth of Allah... it is a clear-cut case of Multiple Personality Disorder.
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Parodite » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:20 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Bukhari 009.088.206 - Afflictions and the End of the World - - - -
Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman

The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition. You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the(Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to Bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state."


Who claims those are the words of Muhammed?
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Parodite » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:12 pm

Here is a website of interest. Lots to study and opiniate, but the tone fair-minded so it should be worth to consider.

How to make sense of contradictions, real or perceived, in the Qur'an and Bible?

Contradictions in the Qur'an

[...]
If both sides can come to the recognition that their own book, the scripture which is the basis of their faith, be it the Bible or the Qur'an, contains some very difficult passages which might even look like plain errors or logical contradictions (depending on the level of hostility employed when looking at it), then we might be more forgiving towards the other and be motivated to not judge prematurely but to make a serious effort to understand each of the books and the essential teachings of the respective faith in a deeper way before we come to a decision why we do or do not believe them.
[...]
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:59 pm

Parodite wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Bukhari 009.088.206 - Afflictions and the End of the World - - - -
Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman

The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition. You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the(Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to Bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state."


Who claims those are the words of Muhammed?

The entirety of Islam. A few minor hadith are disputed, but not Bukhari. Bukhari is Islamic gospel.
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Parodite » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:19 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Parodite wrote:Who claims those are the words of Muhammed?

The entirety of Islam. A few minor hadith are disputed, but not Bukhari. Bukhari is Islamic gospel.


Lol.. if "the entirety of Islam" would embrace it, the world would be a very different place.

If indeed those are Muhammed's words - not because many Islamic officials say-so and for-long-enough time... but if after thorough scientific research one could safely assume this to indeed be the case (why do I doubt that?) - it begs the question if this revelation came to him before or after he massacred Jews who refused to bow (and incidentally were serious competitors in the market place).

MPD...it stares you right in the face all over the place.
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:58 pm

I'm not Muslim, but the topic is Islamic Scriptures and doctrine. Various misinterpretations and popular heresies are for another thread.
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Parodite » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:06 am

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I'm not Muslim, but the topic is Islamic Scriptures and doctrine. Various misinterpretations and popular heresies are for another thread.


Every doctrine and scripture is a misinterpretation and heresy so it all perfectly fits in one and the same thread.
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Typhoon » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:33 am

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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:04 pm

Typhoon wrote:World's Oldest Known Koran May Predate Muhammad and Rewrite the History of Islam

Will be interesting to see if this holds up or not.
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Re: Koran/Quran and other Islamic Scriptures & Doctrines..

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:16 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Typhoon wrote:World's Oldest Known Koran May Predate Muhammad and Rewrite the History of Islam

Will be interesting to see if this holds up or not.

Analysis of the of the older text itself will be more revealing. Carbon dating can help prove a modern fake, but the date of the parchment says little about the date of inscription.
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