Syria

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monster_gardener
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

Marcus wrote:Thanks, mg, I knew them both . . North and Rushdoony, that is . . :o

We used to call North "Scary Gary" . . :D

Rushdoony was a personal friend.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Marcus.

Interesting...............
"Scary Gary"
Would be interested in hearing more..........

What is your opinion on their Dominionist plan for US/Uz/World?

A scary idea of a crazy friend or more than that?

How connected is North/Rushdoony's influence into the power structure: Republican/Tax Payer party, George W. Bush, Ron Paul, Rand Paul ..............

If you care to share..........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Treatment of Dhimmis.... Al Ghazali... Candide :-) Thoughts

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
The first time I hear of the MB speaking in Syria.
The MB have a long tradition of "Sneaking" ;) :twisted: in Syria............ and elsewhere.........
In 1979, a chain of assassinations took place in the artillery school in Aleppo. After almost a year, a member from the group believed to be behind the assassinations was injured and taken into custody by the Syrian intelligence system. He was identified as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood party. The party's goals were to eliminate all persons who had strong ties with the government or Ba'ath party, focusing on Ba'athists who were educated and had a good reputation within the government, or army high ranking members who were members of Assad's family or Alawites. It took Syrian intelligence a long time to penetrate the Muslim Brotherhood and diminish its power. In February 1982, Assad ordered the Syrian army to bombard the town of Hama in order to quell a revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood. In what became known as the Hama massacre, an estimated 5,000 to 10,000 people were killed, including about 1,000 soldiers an thousands of Islamist militants, members of the Muslim Brotherhood.
That was my point. 30 years of nothing and now they are emboldened...wonder why? I agree with Azari on why.

And how could you be such a supporter f Israel when your brethren there are more Dhimmis than they can ever be in Arab countries?
Really?

I know that the Penguins are a Problem but ..................

Does Israel exact higher taxes etc. on Christians, Druzes, other non Jews this way.............
the dhimmi [may never] mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [non-Muslim poll tax]….[O]n offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protuberant bone beneath his ear [lower jaw]… They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…[T]heir houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low…. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle is … wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. [Dhimmis must] wear [an identifying] patch, even women, and even in the [public] baths…[Dhimmis] must hold their tongue…. [2]
Before I respond...Can you please provide the source for the above?

Thank you Very Much for your post, Hans.

Sure........

Originally in the comments.........

http://www.spittoon.org/archives/7960

Digging back to sources
...one must go on jihad (i.e., razzias or raids) at least once a year...one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book - i.e. Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked....One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide...they may steal as much food as they need...

...the dhimmi [may never] mention Allah or His Apostle...Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [non-Muslim poll tax]....[O]n offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protuberant bone beneath his ear [lower jaw]... They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells...[T]heir houses may not be higher than the Muslim's, no matter how low.... The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle is ... wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. [Dhimmis must] wear [an identifying] patch, even women, and even in the [public] baths...[Dhimmis] must hold their tongue.... [2
Note the Footnote:
2. Al-Ghazali (d. 1111). Kitab al-Wagiz fi fiqh madhab al-imam al-Safi'i, Beirut, 1979, pp. 186, 190-91; 199-200; 202-203. [Translation by Dr. Michael Schub, from Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslim Peoples, (2005) ed. Dr. Andrew G. Bostom, p. 199 ]

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Sufi- ... hazali.htm

Here's more..........

brucepig:
Dhimmitude is it really a part of Islam or just scaremongering?

I have read a lot of articles by critics of Islam who bang on about Dhimmitude and the Jizya. How non muslims are supposed to be discriminated against in an Islamic state.

Lots of people like Robert Spencer and other dubious characters cite the doctrine of Dhimmitude as proof positive that Islam is a totalitarian idea.

If they are right about Dhimmitude then I have to say I agree with them that Islam is more than just an ultra conservative superstition and more like a fascistic ideology but how much of this is actually true?

Hass you seem to know your scripture insideout. Is it true that Dhimmitude is an intrinsic part of Islam, is it traditional and authentic or merely an add on by the extreme Wahabis?

:parrot:

hupla:
Quote from: brucepig on December 04, 2008, 02:50 AM

Hass you seem to know your scripture insideout. Is it true that Dhimmitude is an intrinsic part of Islam, is it traditional and authentic or merely an add on by the extreme Wahabis?

It is true.

Two caveats however:
Firstly, the exact rules were not the same everywhere - e.g. in some places one couldn't own property, had to wear identifying markers (e.g. yellow star of David), couldn't own a horse, couldn't bear witness against Muslims etc. - but in some places one could own property for example.

What Robert Spencer etc. tend to glide over is the fact that other religions at the time (e.g. Christianity) tended to treat people worse.
The only difference being that other religions died out or changed - unlike Islam.

awais:
It's true. wikipedia it. There are plenty of hadiths that support it, and ayat too.

a.ghazali:
Quote from: brucepig on December 04, 2008, 02:50 AM

Dhimmitude is it really a part of Islam or just scaremongering?


Sadly this is part of Islamic ideology. I've done a entire chapter on Dhimmitude in the project I'm working on. I'll reproduce it here (in multiple posts because of length.)

---------------------------------------------

Islam for Dhimmis

One must go on jihad at least once a year. One may use a catapult against them when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them or drown them. If Jews and Christians are enslaved, their marriage is revoked. One may cut down their trees and must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide.

The dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle. Jews, Christians, and Majins must pay the jizya and on payment must hang their head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits him on the protuberant bone beneath his ear. Their houses may not be higher than the Muslims'. The dhimmi may not ride a horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road and must wear an identifying patch, even women. Dhimmis must hold their tongue......

Al-Ghazali (1058-1111)
(The most celebrated scholar in the history of Islamic thought)


As Islam grew, the governance of the ?conquered' needed to be formalised. In the Qur'an and Hadith it is clearly stated by Muhammad that those (Jews and Christians) conquered should submit to Islam, or pay the Jizya protection tax or be killed. For the Pagans (which included Hindus and Buddhists) however, the choice was reduced ? submit to Islam or be killed. In other words Islam will tolerate the continued practice of Judaism and Christianity within its state but certainly not any involving polytheism or idol worship. As this theory was not practical with the conquest of India, though 70 million Hindus were killed during Islamic rule there, Hindus by and large were allowed to continue practicing their religion once their Jizya tax was paid.

A non-Muslim in an Islamic society is referred to as a dhimmi (pl. dimam) living in a state of dhimmitude. A dhimmi is basically a protected person by dint of the fact that he pays his poll tax with humiliation. In essence it is a form of extortion on non-Muslims to subvert them and a method of raising funds for Islamic expansionism.

Should western societies start falling under the governance of Islamic rule as many experts are predicting is inevitable in the next 50-100 years, the life of non Muslims will be subjected to dhimmitude with strict rules and regulations, as has been prescribed throughout Islamic history.

The basis for life as a dhimmi was formalised under the caliphate of Umar, who when Syria was captured, drew up a pact with their leader to determine how their Christian population would exist under Islamic rule. These rules and regulations, based on the Qur'an and Hadiths, have become the norm in such societies for the last fourteen hundred years and formalised in a document known as the Pact of Umar.


Those who did not convert to Islam were forbidden from the following:
- Building and repairing places of worship or residences for monks
- Closing doors to Muslim passers-by and travellers requiring board and lodging for up to three days
- Sheltering or hiding anyone considered to be an enemy of the Muslims
- Teaching the Qur'an to non-Muslim children. (because it would be taught incorrectly)
- Displaying their religion publicly
- Converting anyone to their religion
- Preventing anyone from converting to Islam
- Sitting should a Muslim wish to sit
- Trying to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their clothing or hairstyle
- Mounting on saddles
- Bearing or carrying any kind of arms
- Engraving Arabic inscriptions on their seals
- Selling fermented drinks
- Displaying crosses or religious books in the roads or markets
- Raising voices when following the dead
- Burying their dead near the Muslims
- Taking slaves who have been allotted to Muslims
- Building houses taller than those of the Muslims
- Striking a Muslim

Agreeing to these terms which are still relevant in today's Islamic societies, means that non-Muslims receive safety from the Muslims. Should there be any violations, the culprit forfeits protection as a dhimmi, and becomes liable to the penalties for contempt and sedition; in other words, death. Inability to pay the Jizya tax usually resulted in payment in the form of children, taken as slaves whose value would be deducted from the tax owed.

a.ghazali:
(...Cont'd)

The concept of blood money was advocated by Muhammad in the Qur'an (4:92) and many places in the Hadiths (e.g. SB 71:665). That is, in the case of murder the perpetrator would pay the victim's family, money as compensation for the crime. To illustrate what life is worth in Islamic states, based on blood money, a review of compensation classified by religion and gender in Saudi Arabia, reveals the following disproportionate figures:
- Muslim man 100,000 riyals
- Muslim woman 50,000 riyals
- Christian man 50,000 riyals
- Christian woman 25,000 riyals
- Hindu man 6,666 riyals
- Hindu woman 3,333 riyals

So even today in the 21st century we have as a result of Islamic teachings, the devaluation of human life based on religion and gender. We have a society where a Muslim man is worth twice as much as a Muslim woman; he is worth 2,900% more than a Hindu woman, 300% more than a Christian woman and 1,400% more than a Hindu man.

As a dhimmi or even a Muslim woman under Islamic rule, you are basically a second/third/fourth class citizen. Muslim nations cannot accept the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, because much of it conflicts with their ideology of subjugation of non-Muslims and viewing all other nations as dar-ul-harb, awaiting conquest and conversion.

But why should there be a need to treat non-Muslims as lower class citizens in an Islamic state? Do the scriptures indicate that those who do not accept Islam are not on an equal footing with those that do? The Qur'an itself is very informative regarding the nature of disbelievers and how they are to be treated.

Allah says in Q 8:55 that, Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve. Essentially Allah divides mankind in two groups placing the non believers in a position lower than even the vilest of animals. Muslims consider the pig to be a despicable animal and their God places those who do not accept him even beneath such a creature. What equal opportunity could possibly afford a non-believer in an Islamic society?

In Q25:44 we are told by Allah that, They are but as the cattle - nay, but they are farther astray? Non-Muslims are even more astray in life than cattle.

In many verses persons not accepting Muhammad's revelation are referred to as deaf, dumb and blind, Q6:39, Q2:171, Q2:18. In Verse Q 7:177 they are labelled as evil, Evil as an example are the folk who denied Our revelations.

In Q7.179 Allah says those who disbelieved were created for hell. Therefore their destination already seems pre-determined at the time of their birth. Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle, nay more misguided: for they are heedless of warning. Such men are more foolish than even cattle.

Staying with the theme of animal analogies, Muhammad continues his tirades against the dhimmis by referring to them as dogs, Q7:176 His likeness is as the likeness of a dog: if thou attack him or leave him he pants with his tongue out. Such is the likeness of the people who deny Our revelations.

In Qur'an 2:65 Muhammad states that because the Jews broke the Sabbath, Allah transformed them into apes and pigs. This punishment is again reiterated in Q5:60 where we read, those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil? Here Allah transforms those whom he curses into apes and pigs. Verse 2:88 informs us of whom Allah curses; Allah hath cursed them for their unbelief. Basically Allah curses everyone not obedient to him even those who use false hair SB 60:409. Those who partake in things forbidden by Allah are also subject to transformation into apes, Q7:166 So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed! In SB 54:524 Muhammad informs us that, A group of Israelites (Jews) were lost. Nobody knows what they did. But they were cursed and changed into rats. Essentially, once you are not a Muslim you are likely to be cursed and subsequently converted to some form of animal.

Idolaters, presumably because they constantly likened to pigs, rats and apes, cannot approach the sacred mosque because they are impure or dirty. Q9:28 The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship.
http://councilofexmuslims.com/index.php ... 861.0;wap2


NOTE: Again, I do not consider Islam to be the unchallenged absolute worst meme mangling mankind ..... Sometimes you have to make the best of a bad situation... Would prefer to live as a Dhimmi under Muslim or Alawite :wink: rule to a "Wild About Handmaids" Christian Dominionist regime that a "Scary Gary" North might try to engineer*...... Suspect that wouldn't be as interested in just what type of Christian I was with lethal results.... Might just have to quit blogging and stick to my garden like Candide & Dr Pangloss ended up doing..... Recall that Protestants IIRC from Hungary took up refuge with the Turks....... Became famous for their Boar Hunts............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide#Ch ... 2.80.93XXX



*Wonder if Margaret Atwood was thinking about North when she envisioned the Commander........
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Marcus »

monster_gardener wrote:What is your opinion on their Dominionist plan for US/Uz/World?
A scary idea of a crazy friend or more than that?
How connected is North/Rushdoony's influence into the power structure: Republican/Tax Payer party, George W. Bush, Ron Paul, Rand Paul ..............
If you care to share..........
I knew North briefly for a few months in 1980 when we attended the same church as did he in Tyler, Texas. My opinion/impression of North is that he was (is?) a huckster, sincere perhaps, but a snake oil salesman nonetheless. You knew, of course, that North had a falling out with Rush, his father-in-law, in the '70s, which, as far as I know, was never repaired.

I became aware of Rush in the late '70s and remained in personal contact with him until his death in 2001 though I disagreed with some of his take on Biblical Law. In my opinion, Rush's early works such as The Politics of Pornography, The Foundations of Social Order, The One and the Many, etc. were by far his best.

In all the time I knew North and Rush, I never once heard or saw anything that even hinted at any connection to politics or politicians on the national or state levels. Where that nonsense came or is coming from is beyond me. The Theonomy/Reconstructionist movement was, as I knew it, a small, insignificant influence within Christian circles. Some of the stuff I've heard over the years about the evils of the Reconstructionist thing trying to take over America strike me as lunacy and certainly something I knew nothing about in spite of my connection to Rushdoony and Chalcedon.

Though I disagree with some of Rush's positions, particularly on the nature and applicability of Biblical Law, I remain grateful for having known him and consider much of his writing critical reading. Consider the following comments on Rush's The Foundations of Social Order:
Every social order rests on a creed, on a concept of life and law, and represents a religion in action. The basic faith of a society means growth in terms of that faith. Now the creeds and councils of the early church, in hammering out definitions of doctrines, were also laying down the foundations of Christendom with them. The life of a society is its creed; a dying creed faces desertion or subversion readily. Because of its indifference to its creedal basis in Biblical Christianity, western civilization is today facing death and is in a life and death struggle with humanism.

Today humanism is the creedal basis of the various democratic and socialistic movements. The clearer the humanism, as in Marxism, the more direct its use of power, because it operates in terms of a consistency of principle. The conservatives attempt to retain the political forms of the Christian West with no belief in Biblical Christianity. Apart from vague affirmations of liberty, they cannot defend their position philosophically. They therefore become factfinders: they try to oppose the humanists by documenting their cruelty, corruption, and abuse of office. If the facts carry any conviction to the people, they lead them only to exchange one set of radical humanists for reforming radical humanists. It is never their faith in the system which is shaken, but only in a form or representative of that system. The success of the subversives rests on their attack on the creed of the establishment, and its replacement by a new creed.

When the foundations are provided, the general form of the building is determined. When the creed is accepted, the social order is determined. In one of his top selling books, Dr. R.J. Rushdoony explains that there can be no reconstruction of the Christian civilization of the west except on Christian creedal foundations.
Hope that helps . . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

Marcus wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:What is your opinion on their Dominionist plan for US/Uz/World?
A scary idea of a crazy friend or more than that?
How connected is North/Rushdoony's influence into the power structure: Republican/Tax Payer party, George W. Bush, Ron Paul, Rand Paul ..............
If you care to share..........
I knew North briefly for a few months in 1980 when we attended the same church as did he in Tyler, Texas. My opinion/impression of North is that he was (is?) a huckster, sincere perhaps, but a snake oil salesman nonetheless. You knew, of course, that North had a falling out with Rush, his father-in-law, in the '70s, which, as far as I know, was never repaired.

I became aware of Rush in the late '70s and remained in personal contact with him until his death in 2001 though I disagreed with some of his take on Biblical Law. In my opinion, Rush's early works such as The Politics of Pornography, The Foundations of Social Order, The One and the Many, etc. were by far his best.

In all the time I knew North and Rush, I never once heard or saw anything that even hinted at any connection to politics or politicians on the national or state levels. Where that nonsense came or is coming from is beyond me. The Theonomy/Reconstructionist movement was, as I knew it, a small, insignificant influence within Christian circles. Some of the stuff I've heard over the years about the evils of the Reconstructionist thing trying to take over America strike me as lunacy and certainly something I knew nothing about in spite of my connection to Rushdoony and Chalcedon.

Though I disagree with some of Rush's positions, particularly on the nature and applicability of Biblical Law, I remain grateful for having known him and consider much of his writing critical reading. Consider the following comments on Rush's The Foundations of Social Order:
Every social order rests on a creed, on a concept of life and law, and represents a religion in action. The basic faith of a society means growth in terms of that faith. Now the creeds and councils of the early church, in hammering out definitions of doctrines, were also laying down the foundations of Christendom with them. The life of a society is its creed; a dying creed faces desertion or subversion readily. Because of its indifference to its creedal basis in Biblical Christianity, western civilization is today facing death and is in a life and death struggle with humanism.

Today humanism is the creedal basis of the various democratic and socialistic movements. The clearer the humanism, as in Marxism, the more direct its use of power, because it operates in terms of a consistency of principle. The conservatives attempt to retain the political forms of the Christian West with no belief in Biblical Christianity. Apart from vague affirmations of liberty, they cannot defend their position philosophically. They therefore become factfinders: they try to oppose the humanists by documenting their cruelty, corruption, and abuse of office. If the facts carry any conviction to the people, they lead them only to exchange one set of radical humanists for reforming radical humanists. It is never their faith in the system which is shaken, but only in a form or representative of that system. The success of the subversives rests on their attack on the creed of the establishment, and its replacement by a new creed.

When the foundations are provided, the general form of the building is determined. When the creed is accepted, the social order is determined. In one of his top selling books, Dr. R.J. Rushdoony explains that there can be no reconstruction of the Christian civilization of the west except on Christian creedal foundations.
Hope that helps . . .

Thank you Very Much for your post, Marcus.
You knew, of course, that North had a falling out with Rush, his father-in-law, in the '70s, which, as far as I know, was never repaired.
No, I did not know that. I do remember President George W. Bush reported as sending condolences to North when Dr. Rushdoony died.
Perhaps it was pro forma. What interests me is if North is anywhere near nodes of political power........

The work I associate with Dr. Rushdoony is the "Institutes".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Instit ... blical_Law

http://ecclesia.org/truth/rj.html

Had not looked up his other works. Perhaps I should take a look.

Would recommend on my part, "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Happened on it decades ago in a library and could not put it down...... An American "1984"..........

http://www.amazon.com/Handmaids-Tale-Ev ... Descending

If you read it, let me know if you think Gary North would be up to something similar.................

Have also seen the movie version which kept very close to the book........

IIRC one exception was that it had a brief mention of Baptist guerrillas battling the Gileadites....... but that is plausible..........

Roger Williams was a Baptist............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomian ... her_groups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Will ... ologian%29
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Hans Bulvai wrote: And you are wrong. I am not the one who supports a dictator that HAS BEEN/IS killing, wholesale, because of what might happen to his followers...

I am in no position to judge who is a heretic but I can tell you that those who support a bloody dictator deserve what they get; as much as I hate to say that. That's nothing new though. Where is Ibrahim? Look at what happened to the Italian dictator and is followers, etc, etc..

What are you implying by bring me up in this fashion?


I've never understood people who opposed these uprisings in any of the Arab countries. In all cases it means supporting a dictator over the majority of the population. It seems so stupid and immoral I can't imagine any sane person trying to justify it. Aside from the general "I'm just happy all these ragheads are killing one another" crowd, I don't see any reason not to at least tacitly support an uprising.

My personal hope is that the Turkish Air Force starts lighting up Assad's tanks and artillery. As in Libya, without their toys these tinpot dictators will drop in short order.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Marcus »

monster_gardener wrote:. . What interests me is if North is anywhere near nodes of political power........

The work I associate with Dr. Rushdoony is the "Institutes".

Would recommend on my part, "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Happened on it decades ago in a library and could not put it down...... An American "1984"..........If you read it, let me know if you think Gary North would be up to something similar.................
I was briefly acquainted with North over 30 years ago and saw absolutely nothing at that time to suggest he was anything but a snake oil salesman.

The first volume of The Intstitutes of Biblical Law is much better than is volume II.

Took a look at The Handmaid's Tale, both at Amazon and at Netflix, and it looks to me like pure fantasy on a par with the Da Vinci Code or worse. The graphic below would seem to fit both books:
TheDaVinciCod.jpg
TheDaVinciCod.jpg (10.06 KiB) Viewed 2715 times
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Marcus wrote:
Took a look at The Handmaid's Tale, both at Amazon and at Netflix, and it looks to me like pure fantasy on a par with the Da Vinci Code or worse.

Both are fiction, classified and shelved as such. What's the problem?
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Are there More Monitors in England or 1984

Post by monster_gardener »

Marcus wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:. . What interests me is if North is anywhere near nodes of political power........

The work I associate with Dr. Rushdoony is the "Institutes".

Would recommend on my part, "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood. Happened on it decades ago in a library and could not put it down...... An American "1984"..........If you read it, let me know if you think Gary North would be up to something similar.................
I was briefly acquainted with North over 30 years ago and saw absolutely nothing at that time to suggest he was anything but a snake oil salesman.

The first volume of The Intstitutes of Biblical Law is much better than is volume II.

Took a look at The Handmaid's Tale, both at Amazon and at Netflix, and it looks to me like pure fantasy on a par with the Da Vinci Code or worse. The graphic below would seem to fit both books:
TheDaVinciCod.jpg
Thank you Very Much for your post, Marcus.

Thanks for the information on North etc.

Snake oil salesman could be used to describe the Commander...........
TheDaVinciCod.jpg
The DaVinci Cod*

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Good one, Marcus...........

True "The Handmaid" is fiction, just like "1984" is......... Thank G_d.........

Though I suspect there are now more monitors in England than IngSoc used in 1984 to watch Winston :wink: Smith smoke cigarettes in the Boyz Room**

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingsoc#Ing ... ass_system


But I still would recommend reading "The Handmaid" for the Halibut :wink: .............











*Speaking of fish :wink: stories, could that cod be the "Holy Cod" :wink:

This fish is too big for [img] :wink:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... usetts.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Cod ... sachusetts

**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_%28cigarette%29

Original....
Q9zWw0Ru28w

A bit motley & wild........
PYhGi65Lijg


BTW: neat trick with the image attachment....... Need to find out how to do that.......... AH! There it is....... I likes it :wink:

Thanks! :D ........
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Hoosiernorm
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hoosiernorm »

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monster_gardener
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Shades of Spaceballs.

Post by monster_gardener »

Hoosiernorm wrote:12345
Thank you Very Much for your post, HoosierNorm.

Congratualations, you scooped me.............


You would think that an Assad would not have such a Hafez oops :wink: I mean half-assed password......

http://www.techspot.com/news/47364-anon ... sword.html
President al-Assad's emails were among 78 other account details from staff members posted on Pastebin by Anonymous, revealing that many of them used two of the worlds least secure passwords: 12345 and 123456.

The hackers, some of whom were based in Israel, used relatively simple hacking methods to gain access to the Syrian mail servers according to a source within Anonymous quoted by Forbes.
Shades of Spaceballs...........

a6iW-8xPw3k
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Hoosiernorm
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Re: Shades of Spaceballs.

Post by Hoosiernorm »

monster_gardener wrote:
Shades of Spaceballs...........

a6iW-8xPw3k
I laughed until it hurt, thank you monster gardener :D
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hoosiernorm »

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/02/07/re ... nto-syria/
In a recent order, Ayatollah Khamenei has given the duty of stabilizing the Assad regime in Syria to Iran’s Quds forces.

According to the Turkish newspaper, Sabah, the commander of the Quds forces, Qassem Soleimani and 15,000 of his fighters have entered Syria with the mission of assisting in the suppression of the Syrian protestors. The Quds forces will act as a firewall for the Assad regime as the Syrian army is finding itself in a difficult situation where many officers are joining the opposition because they do not approve of the mass killings of the civilians, which so far has taken the lives of more than 5,000 people.

Other sources have indicated that Qassem Soleimani has a permanent presence in Syria’s war room overseeing and managing the attacks on the opposition.

Khamenei has said that Syria is the red line, adding that the fall of Assad will not be tolerated. Qassem Soleimani is urging Assad to enforce a complete lockdown of information to the outside world and to use a vicious clampdown to put an end to the uprising before the West can possibly get involved militarily.

The Iranian leader also has asked Hezbollah to join forces with the Quds forces to help the Assad regime. As reported back in July, Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei delivered a threatening letter to President Obama ordering the U.S. to cease and desist pressuring the Syrian regime leadership, cautioning that Iran will retaliate against American forces in the region.

At the same time, the Revolutionary Guards, through its publication, Sobh’eh Sadegh, in an article titled, “Iran’s Serious Stance in the Face of Syrian Events,” warned that “Should Turkish officials insist on their contradictory behavior and if they continue on their present path, serious issues are sure to follow. We will be put in the position of having to choose between Turkey and Syria. Syria’s justification in defending herself along with mirroring ideological perceptions would sway Iran toward choosing Syria.”
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Re: Shades of Spaceballs.

Post by monster_gardener »

Hoosiernorm wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Shades of Spaceballs...........

a6iW-8xPw3k
I laughed until it hurt, thank you monster gardener :D
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, HoosierNorm,

Many Thanks for the kind words...........

Making people laugh........

That is a/the goal for a Jester/Fool like me.........

Often don't succeed........

Credit to Mel Brooks ............ A great American & Jewish Comic ..........

And to the poster of the clip & YouTube........

Thanks again,
Your Friend,

Monster Gardener.......
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AzariLoveIran

Re: The Syria Thread

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.


:lol: :lol: (can not stop laughing)


Ibrahim .. Israel .. America .. England .. France .. leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri .. on the same side

and

Iran (and Russia and China) on the other side


Ayman al-Zawahiri publicly sides with Syrian opposition

.
Following a pair of suicide car bombings that killed 28 people at state security facilities in Aleppo, the leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, publically threw his terrorist organization’s weight behind the Syrian opposition.

The ability of the fugitive al-Qaeda leader to directly influence or organize the spiralling violence across Syria may be limited. But the Aleppo bombings, like those in Damascus in late December and early January, bore the hallmarks of operations carried out in Iraq by the al-Qaeda-linked faction there.

U.S. officials told American reporters on the weekend they “would not be surprised” if it was al-Qaeda that carried out Friday’s bombings as well as the earlier attacks in Damascus.

The message from Mr. al-Zawahiri, calling on Muslim fighters from Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey to go to Syria and join a war of jihad against Bashar al-Assad’s “pernicious, cancerous regime,” was the last thing the Syrian opposition wanted to hear.

“Al-Qaeda has no sympathizers among the protesters,” said Ammar Abdulhamid, a Syrian activist and fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies in Washington.

“The protesters’ goal remains the establishment of a democratic civil state,” he said, and “they all understand that al-Qaeda involvement would ultimately undermine this goal.”

The disparate opposition groups fighting to oust the powerful al-Assad forces have struggled to gain international support for their cause, in part by framing it as the aspiration of all Syrians regardless of their sectarian or religious bent. They worry that al-Qaeda could undermine that goal as well, although some experts say their worry is misplaced.

“It may be the last thing they want to hear, but it’s not likely to make any practical difference,” said Barry Rubin, author of The Truth About Syria, referring to the call to arms from Mr. al-Zawahiri.

“Those who have come out against Assad will stick to the side they’ve chosen, and they’ll just try to ignore al-Qaeda’s presence,” he added.

It could prove difficult to ignore.

Indeed, Iraqi officials told reporters on the weekend that for the past four months, there has been a stream of Iraqi fighters and weapons flowing into Syria from Iraq to support the anti-Assad movement.

The fighters and weapons “are being smuggled from Mosul through the Rabia crossing to Syria, as members of the same families live on both sides of the border,” said Iraqi Deputy Interior Minister Adnan al-Assadi.

“We have known about the jihadists’ role for months,” said Alastair Crooke, the Beirut-based director of Conflicts Forum. “People have just chosen to turn a blind eye to it.”

Mr. Crooke, a former analyst in Central Asia with British MI6, said that “almost since the outset, Syrians who fought with Zarqawi in Iraq, have been involved” in the campaign to oust President al-Assad, referring to the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of al-Qaeda of Iraq until his killing in 2006.

There are those fighters who returned to Syria, Mr. Crooke said, as well as an influx of jihadists from other countries. “These people,” including al-Qaeda, he said, “are much more anti-Shia than pro-democracy. After Syria, they want to take the fight to Iraq and on to Iran.”

That, Mr. Crooke said, is what Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was referring to last year when he warned that the ousting of Bashar al-Assad could lead to a regional sectarian conflict, pitting Sunni against Shiite.

Syrian President al-Assad has been insisting for some time that the opposition he faces includes what he calls “foreigners,” among them al-Qaeda and other armed jihadist elements. The main coalitions of Syrian opposition groups, though, say they are fighting for democratic change in their country and an end to the long-ruling Assad dictatorship. They want no part of al-Qaeda.

“Al-Qaeda and the Assads are two faces of the same coin of sectarian hatred,” said Mr. Abdulhamid, the Syrian activist. “Both seek to stoke fires that we want to extinguish.”

The al-Qaeda message was followed Sunday by the declaration of jihad by Jordan’s increasingly powerful Muslim Brotherhood. The group called it “an Islamic duty” to support Syria’s rebel army.

The surge in jihadist language came as the Arab League met in Cairo to decide its next move, a week after its peace plan calling for Mr. al-Assad to hand over powers to his vice-president was vetoed in the United Nations Security Council by Russia and China.

The League voted to ask the Security Council to dispatch a joint UN-Arab League monitoring group to Syria to report on the situation inside the country. Syria quickly dismissed the notion as an unacceptable intervention.

In his eight-minute video-taped statement, entitled “Onwards, Lions of Syria,” Mr. al-Zawahiri urged Syrians to oppose help from the Arab League and “its corrupt agent governments.”

“There is no treatment for [the Assad regime] other than removal” he said. “Don’t depend on the West and Turkey, which had deals, mutual understanding and sharing with this regime for decades and only began to abandon it after they saw it faltering.”

“Instead,” he added, “depend on Allah alone and then on your sacrifices, resistance, and steadfastness.”

Born in Egypt, Mr. al-Zawahiri, who trained as a physician, took over al-Qaeda after Osama bin Laden was killed last May by a U.S. special forces raid on his hideout in Pakistan.

In July, he urged Syrian protesters to direct their movement also against Washington and Israel, denouncing the United States as insincere in showing solidarity with them.
.


congratulation folks

Zionist, America and leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri on the same side


.
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monster_gardener
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

AzariLoveIran wrote:.


:lol: :lol: (can not stop laughing)


Ibrahim .. Israel .. America .. England .. France .. leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri .. on the same side

and

Iran (and Russia and China) on the other side


Ayman al-Zawahiri publicly sides with Syrian opposition

.
Following a pair of suicide car bombings that killed 28 people at state security facilities in Aleppo, the leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, publically threw his terrorist organization’s weight behind the Syrian opposition.

The ability of the fugitive al-Qaeda leader to directly influence or organize the spiralling violence across Syria may be limited. But the Aleppo bombings, like those in Damascus in late December and early January, bore the hallmarks of operations carried out in Iraq by the al-Qaeda-linked faction there.

U.S. officials told American reporters on the weekend they “would not be surprised” if it was al-Qaeda that carried out Friday’s bombings as well as the earlier attacks in Damascus.

The message from Mr. al-Zawahiri, calling on Muslim fighters from Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey to go to Syria and join a war of jihad against Bashar al-Assad’s “pernicious, cancerous regime,” was the last thing the Syrian opposition wanted to hear.

“Al-Qaeda has no sympathizers among the protesters,” said Ammar Abdulhamid, a Syrian activist and fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies in Washington.

“The protesters’ goal remains the establishment of a democratic civil state,” he said, and “they all understand that al-Qaeda involvement would ultimately undermine this goal.”

The disparate opposition groups fighting to oust the powerful al-Assad forces have struggled to gain international support for their cause, in part by framing it as the aspiration of all Syrians regardless of their sectarian or religious bent. They worry that al-Qaeda could undermine that goal as well, although some experts say their worry is misplaced.

“It may be the last thing they want to hear, but it’s not likely to make any practical difference,” said Barry Rubin, author of The Truth About Syria, referring to the call to arms from Mr. al-Zawahiri.

“Those who have come out against Assad will stick to the side they’ve chosen, and they’ll just try to ignore al-Qaeda’s presence,” he added.

It could prove difficult to ignore.

Indeed, Iraqi officials told reporters on the weekend that for the past four months, there has been a stream of Iraqi fighters and weapons flowing into Syria from Iraq to support the anti-Assad movement.

The fighters and weapons “are being smuggled from Mosul through the Rabia crossing to Syria, as members of the same families live on both sides of the border,” said Iraqi Deputy Interior Minister Adnan al-Assadi.

“We have known about the jihadists’ role for months,” said Alastair Crooke, the Beirut-based director of Conflicts Forum. “People have just chosen to turn a blind eye to it.”

Mr. Crooke, a former analyst in Central Asia with British MI6, said that “almost since the outset, Syrians who fought with Zarqawi in Iraq, have been involved” in the campaign to oust President al-Assad, referring to the late Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leader of al-Qaeda of Iraq until his killing in 2006.

There are those fighters who returned to Syria, Mr. Crooke said, as well as an influx of jihadists from other countries. “These people,” including al-Qaeda, he said, “are much more anti-Shia than pro-democracy. After Syria, they want to take the fight to Iraq and on to Iran.”

That, Mr. Crooke said, is what Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki was referring to last year when he warned that the ousting of Bashar al-Assad could lead to a regional sectarian conflict, pitting Sunni against Shiite.

Syrian President al-Assad has been insisting for some time that the opposition he faces includes what he calls “foreigners,” among them al-Qaeda and other armed jihadist elements. The main coalitions of Syrian opposition groups, though, say they are fighting for democratic change in their country and an end to the long-ruling Assad dictatorship. They want no part of al-Qaeda.

“Al-Qaeda and the Assads are two faces of the same coin of sectarian hatred,” said Mr. Abdulhamid, the Syrian activist. “Both seek to stoke fires that we want to extinguish.”

The al-Qaeda message was followed Sunday by the declaration of jihad by Jordan’s increasingly powerful Muslim Brotherhood. The group called it “an Islamic duty” to support Syria’s rebel army.

The surge in jihadist language came as the Arab League met in Cairo to decide its next move, a week after its peace plan calling for Mr. al-Assad to hand over powers to his vice-president was vetoed in the United Nations Security Council by Russia and China.

The League voted to ask the Security Council to dispatch a joint UN-Arab League monitoring group to Syria to report on the situation inside the country. Syria quickly dismissed the notion as an unacceptable intervention.

In his eight-minute video-taped statement, entitled “Onwards, Lions of Syria,” Mr. al-Zawahiri urged Syrians to oppose help from the Arab League and “its corrupt agent governments.”

“There is no treatment for [the Assad regime] other than removal” he said. “Don’t depend on the West and Turkey, which had deals, mutual understanding and sharing with this regime for decades and only began to abandon it after they saw it faltering.”

“Instead,” he added, “depend on Allah alone and then on your sacrifices, resistance, and steadfastness.”

Born in Egypt, Mr. al-Zawahiri, who trained as a physician, took over al-Qaeda after Osama bin Laden was killed last May by a U.S. special forces raid on his hideout in Pakistan.

In July, he urged Syrian protesters to direct their movement also against Washington and Israel, denouncing the United States as insincere in showing solidarity with them.
.


congratulation folks

Zionist, America and leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri on the same side


.
Ibrahim .. Israel .. America .. England .. France .. leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri .. on the same side
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

So far not me, mg.

That 1,2,3,4,5 password does make me worry.............

Poor Bashir...........

Wasn't supposed to have the burden of being "king".............

What a shame Basil didn't use a Christian chauffeur who might have worried more about Basil's life than Basil did himself.............

Basil......... fragrant herb............ need to plant some more for pesto............
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
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AzariLoveIran

Re: The Syria Thread

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.

monster_gardener , you skipped the main subject, Al-Qaeda and West in cahoots in Syria

thought always this Ayman al-Zawahiri a creation of Rumsfeld Pentagon soup-kitchen

Come on, MG, come on
.
. . Al-Qaeda entering the fray, moving into Syria from Iraq.

The current leader, of al-Qaeda Ayman al-Zawahri has called upon his followers to back the opposition and bring down Bashar al-Assad’s regime.

. . told RT that Al-Qaeda’s presence was indicative of alliance between the West and Al-Qaeda. He said the US had used the presence of Al-Qaeda militants to suit its own ends before in both Libya and in Afghanistan.

“Once again, the US and European Union states as usual supporting Al-Qaeda as they did in Afghanistan prior to 9/11. Will they never learn?”
.



what a disaster .. America and Al-Qaeda brothers in arms

what about 9/11 ? :lol:

.
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monster_gardener
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

AzariLoveIran wrote:.

monster_gardener , you skipped the main subject, Al-Qaeda and West in cahoots in Syria

thought always this Ayman al-Zawahiri a creation of Rumsfeld Pentagon soup-kitchen

Come on, MG, come on
.
. . Al-Qaeda entering the fray, moving into Syria from Iraq.

The current leader, of al-Qaeda Ayman al-Zawahri has called upon his followers to back the opposition and bring down Bashar al-Assad’s regime.

. . told RT that Al-Qaeda’s presence was indicative of alliance between the West and Al-Qaeda. He said the US had used the presence of Al-Qaeda militants to suit its own ends before in both Libya and in Afghanistan.

“Once again, the US and European Union states as usual supporting Al-Qaeda as they did in Afghanistan prior to 9/11. Will they never learn?”
.



what a disaster .. America and Al-Qaeda brothers in arms

what about 9/11 ? :lol:

.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

I despise Al Queda.

If I had to choose between being a Salafi and a Shia........... I'd choose Shia: more art, IMVVHO more chance for change ...........

If I had to choose between being a dhimmi under Sunni or Shia......... harder to choose......... historically the Shia too hung up on purity: worry about getting splashed by raindrops that touch infidel first......

Might depend on what type of Sunni..... Afgahn or Ottoman unless you're Armenian............

IMVHO this boiling down to versus Iran the not as bad enemy but the enemy getting/with the power right now.........

From what is written I suspect it is a foolish tacit alliance....... common thing in the world...........

Not written............. Maybe not even spoken........... No need......... Fight between once current victim down.........


Reminds me of Queen Elizabeth I & the East Euro Protestants allying with the Turk against the Catholics............

I hope we/US, Israel & Iran can climb down off this King of the Hill mountain..........

More likely that we all fall down on top of those who are pushing us/all of us than there is winner.

But Iran think it has winning hand or that it is now or never..........

Israel & US think that just one more push, Iran down and we can ride the chaos tiger..........

Probably both wrong..........

Foolish Khomeini had to run mouth so much about Satan(s)..........

Likewise that dummy Bush II: Axis of Evil............

Teddy Roosevelt said "Speak softly, but carry a big stick"......

Two opposing memes............

Stick & Stones
May break my bones
But words will never hurt me.

vs.

"Men often forgive blows faster than insulting/threatening words"

Hitler put big thumb on word side of scale when he did what he said he would.............

Have to take intentions seriously as well as capacity ........... Al Queda did not have ICBM so used passenger jets as cruise missiles


Maybe time to move to Tasmania.......... Devil or no :wink: :(
TAZ.JPG
TAZ.JPG (17.4 KiB) Viewed 2662 times
Be sure to take your music................... :wink:

apIa9LWXI_Q

Bagpipes don't count as being music according to Taz :wink:


Note: Many thanks to Marcus for putting me on to the upload image technique......... Think it will solve my big or non compatible wiki image problem. Thanks again.
Last edited by monster_gardener on Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sparky
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Sparky »

What cahoots? The assertion is little more than Putinista gibberish. It's no surprise to me that an extremist Sunni terrorist group wants to do for a quasi-secular minority "rafidah Shia" government. An AQ ass-clown's idea of hell is a pistol with one bullet and a Shia and a Jew stood in front him.
Ibrahim
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Ibrahim »

Sparky wrote:What cahoots? The assertion is little more than Putinista gibberish. It's no surprise to me that an extremist Sunni terrorist group wants to do for a quasi-secular minority "rafidah Shia" government. An AQ ass-clown's idea of hell is a pistol with one bullet and a Shia and a Jew stood in front him.
Heh, well put.


I wouldn't let some al-Qaeda pronouncement from a cave somewhere influence my view of anything. It's quite possible to want the right thing for all the wrong reasons, which applies to al-Qaeda re: Assad, and I've also heard that al-Qaeda members do drink water but I will continue to do so despite my overall opposition to al-Qaeda.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

Ibrahim wrote:
Hans Bulvai wrote: And you are wrong. I am not the one who supports a dictator that HAS BEEN/IS killing, wholesale, because of what might happen to his followers...

I am in no position to judge who is a heretic but I can tell you that those who support a bloody dictator deserve what they get; as much as I hate to say that. That's nothing new though. Where is Ibrahim? Look at what happened to the Italian dictator and is followers, etc, etc..

What are you implying by bring me up in this fashion?


I've never understood people who opposed these uprisings in any of the Arab countries. In all cases it means supporting a dictator over the majority of the population. It seems so stupid and immoral I can't imagine any sane person trying to justify it. Aside from the general "I'm just happy all these ragheads are killing one another" crowd, I don't see any reason not to at least tacitly support an uprising.

My personal hope is that the Turkish Air Force starts lighting up Assad's tanks and artillery. As in Libya, without their toys these tinpot dictators will drop in short order.
Relax. Not implying anything. Sorry I even brought you up.

You don't have to oppose the uprising to not like the results.
Assad, Gaddafi, Mubarak, toppled, hurray. Good for the people, only the outcome will not be what they want or hope for.

And lets hope that if Turkey does start to light up Assad's tanks and artilleries (all in urban areas) they do a better job than NATO; you know, war crimes and all.
And I hope that Assad's body is not paraded around town when he does fall. I have more faith in the Syrians than I do the Libyans but am used to being disappointed.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
AzariLoveIran

Re: The Syria Thread

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.

Interesting people Arabs

endured many yrs as Turkish vassals

change hand to British and American and French vassals

and

now that all Middle East revolting, .. Iran spearheading Middle Eastern "sovereignty war" .. Arabs gang with those suppressing them last so many yrs and fighting each other

Strange folks

Hans

who is this Gorilla Qatari shithead pushing for ouster of Assad ? who should replace Assad ? Wahhabi shitheads ? ?

Why Arabs fighting each other instead fighting Cameron and Sarko ? ?

where is the new Sladin (Saladin was Kurd) .. Halloooo new Saladin :lol:

.
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monster_gardener
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

AzariLoveIran wrote:.

Interesting people Arabs

endured many yrs as Turkish vassals

change hand to British and American and French vassals

and

now that all Middle East revolting, .. Iran spearheading Middle Eastern "sovereignty war" .. Arabs gang with those suppressing them last so many yrs and fighting each other

Strange folks

Hans

who is this Gorilla Qatari shithead pushing for ouster of Assad ? who should replace Assad ? Wahhabi shitheads ? ?

Why Arabs fighting each other instead fighting Cameron and Sarko ? ?

where is the new Sladin (Saladin was Kurd) .. Halloooo new Saladin :lol:

.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

With all due respect, If Ahmadinejad is/is to be the new Saladin*, he needs to hire a new Public Relations firm............. :wink:
His noble and chivalrous behavior was noted by Christian chroniclers, especially in the accounts of the Siege of Kerak, and despite being the nemesis of the Crusaders, he won the respect of many of them, including Richard the Lionheart; rather than becoming a hated figure in Europe, he became a celebrated example of the principles of chivalry.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

*To be fair, AIUI Saladin didn't have mad mullahs like the Ayatollah Khomeini screwing things up with trash talk about Satans and the like............
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

AzariLoveIran wrote:.

Interesting people Arabs

endured many yrs as Turkish vassals

change hand to British and American and French vassals

and

now that all Middle East revolting, .. Iran spearheading Middle Eastern "sovereignty war" .. Arabs gang with those suppressing them last so many yrs and fighting each other

Strange folks

Hans

who is this Gorilla Qatari shithead pushing for ouster of Assad ? who should replace Assad ? Wahhabi shitheads ? ?

Why Arabs fighting each other instead fighting Cameron and Sarko ? ?

where is the new Sladin (Saladin was Kurd) .. Halloooo new Saladin :lol:

.
Like you said Azari, strange folks.

You wanna know why they are not fighting Cameron and Sarko? Arabs worship Western culture and everything Western. You know this more than I do and they will continue to fight each other and kill each other until judgement day. Assad is no good guy but he for sure is not any worse than the emir shitheads. It is a tragedy that Qatar gets away with murder but this is the new reality. All Iran can do is insulate itself. The stupidity and arrogance of it's Arab neighbors is not going away anytime soon. Gaddafi and Mubarak are gone yet here we are today. Tunis is not even on the radar anymore. Wonder what is happening there.
I don't buy supremacy
Media chief
You menace me
The people you say
'Cause all the crime
Wake up motherfucker
And smell the slime
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Hans Bulvai
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by Hans Bulvai »

He is no patriot Azari.
He is a murderer. The power that you speak of want him out because they have different plans for the region, not because he is a patriot. There is no difference what so ever between Saddam and the Assads. Both were needed then they got turned on. Golan have been in Israel's hands for how long now and all the Assads can do is repress their own people. Saddam lobbed a few rockets at Israel which till today make him a hero in the eyes of the people of the ME. Not so much Bashar. Both Saddam and the Assads killed their own people. Both ruled with an iron fist with fear as the main mechanism. Both were stooges in the grand agenda and like the rest, he will fall. We agree that whats next is much worse though.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 85,00.html
"Humanity compels us to retaliate against murderers," the man wrote, "but politics forces us to remain unmoving spectators. Our poorly considered humanity would be more gruesome than our well-considered inhumanity." These words, which sound like a more elegant version of the Western nations' tepid statements of solidarity with the Syrian insurgents, were penned 221 years ago by Jean Baptiste Cloots, a baron who had emigrated from the Lower Rhine region to France to join the revolution.


All the same, Cloots' words are depressingly contemporary. In 1791, it was the residents of Liège who revolted against their regime and looked to France for support, albeit in vain.

Today it is the entire world that looks on helplessly as the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad wages a brutal campaign against its own people, seemingly unable to prevent it from massacring a rebellious population in city after city, attacking residential neighborhoods for days at a time with rockets, shrapnel grenades, snipers and, as it did in Homs, even with knives and hatchets.

The victims' only crime is that they have been protesting peacefully since March of 2011, first for reforms and freedom, and then for the overthrow of a dictatorship in power since 1970, legitimized by nothing more than a coup and its ability to keep the population in a constant state of fear.

It almost seems as if the world community had exhausted its ability to express empathy with its intervention in Libya, and as if the "responsibility to protect" people against genocide and crimes against humanity resolved by the United Nations General Assembly in 2005 were nothing but a flag fluttering in the wind of changing interests.

The West Masks Its Own Helplessness

The watered-down draft of a resolution against Syria, which Russia and China rejected in the Security Council on Feb. 4, had already been stripped of anything that could have put the Syrian regime in check. It called for neither sanctions nor a freeze on arms shipments to Syria, and it made no mention of a Libyan-style military intervention.

What could such a resolution have achieved, in the presence of a military so determined to crush the rebellion that it murders its fellow Syrians and rapes children in the presence of their fathers? A military whose supreme commander cheerfully tells the United Nations Human Rights Council that the government is merely fighting terrorists and armed outlaws? A regime whose intelligence services fire on government troops who refuse to participate in the killing of civilians, stage fake attacks and fire on their own people in order to pin the blame on the "terrorists?"

Probably nothing.

The regime feels so confident that it began its major offensive against Homs and other cities on the evening before the vote in the UN Security Council. And while tank shells and missiles rained down on the insurgents the next day, the state news agency Sana tweeted, in its "event calendar" for Feb. 4: "Happy Hour 2 for 1 drinks at Mood Lounge, #Damascus."

It's happy hour for Bashar Assad. But he isn't the only one who can be feeling grateful to Russia and China these days. Germany, the United States and other Western countries were quick to express their disgust and consternation over Russia's nyet, describing the complicity between the cynics in Moscow and Damascus as intolerable. Nevertheless, it also provides the West with a scapegoat, and thus the ability to mask its own helplessness with its condemnation of the Russians.

The Arab League, which had previously sent a team of observers to Syria, didn't stand a chance. Without their own vehicles, not to mention helicopters, which the UN inspectors once had in Iraq, the 165 observers in their orange signal vests were dependent on the Syrian military -- and on being chauffeured around by the very thugs they were supposed to be there to stop.

The European External Action Service, which was intended to serve as Europe's joint foreign policy task force, will "take years to become capable of taking action," says one of its diplomats. The funds are available, but the service still lacks a mission statement describing what exactly its positions are.

In an off-the-record conversation, a senior German politician reflexively emphasizes the need to address the refugee question. But the Syrians don't want to leave their country. They want to bring down the dictatorship and live in freedom. Around 20,000 people have fled to Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey, leaving behind hundreds of thousands who continue to risk their lives in Syria.

'We Don't Know How Much Longer We Can Last'

"I am speaking from Bab Amr," a man says. It is difficult to understand what he is saying, amid the surrounding explosions last Friday, as he speaks on the last functioning Skype connection from the neighborhood in Homs that has been in the hands of the insurgents since the late fall. "We are the last people still in contact with the outside world," says Omar Shakir, a spokesman for the neighborhood, dressed warmly against the cold. He says that the last of the diesel fuel is being used to run a generator used to keep their satellite connection alive.

"For seven days now, we have had no electricity and no water, and all phone lines are dead. We don't know how much longer we can last." He says that tanks positioned on the city's outskirts have been bombarding the neighborhood nonstop. "We have enough bread left for two days, but no medications, no bandages, nothing to treat the wounded." The most important underground hospital was destroyed in a targeted bombing last Wednesday, he says, and the wounded are now being taken to the mosques to die.

After days of silence, an email was received from the Khalidiya neighborhood in the northern part of Homs, where SPIEGEL reporters were accompanied in August and December by an engineering student who had used the name "Omar Astalavista" and kept news agencies updated on the situation there. The message read: "Omar is dead. He was filming when he was hit by a grenade. I'm his friend. We had agreed that if one of us died, the other one would take over."

Homs is only the beginning. Tank battalions are on their way to Idlib in the north. Assad's troops have withdrawn from the center of the southern city of Daraa, which is exactly what happened in Homs before the shelling began. This is apparently part of a comprehensive plan to enable the generals to bring their troops to safety first.

None of this is happening in secret. Syria is the first YouTube war in history. Thousands of blurred clips from countless cities and villages have documented the escalation of the rebellion since last spring. The videos taken in recent weeks show people with severed limbs as they lay dying, the bodies of others run over by tanks and piles of corpses, many of which were so gruesome that YouTube restricted access to registered users only.

But everything is available. Anyone who is interested can find daily videos depicting the situation in almost every major city, and with the exception of an old torture video from Saddam Hussein's Iraq, there has been little reason to doubt the authenticity of the images.

The only problem is that few people want to watch the videos in the first place.

Human Rights Groups Estimate 6,000 Dead

Meanwhile, the situation is even worse than it looks. Last week the United Nations, Amnesty International and other organizations that keep track of the dead estimated the current death toll at about 6,000. This number is derived from the names of those whose deaths were confirmed by relatives, doctors or the imams organizing their funerals. But even an international diplomat concedes: "The death toll is presumably much higher; it's just that we don't know about it." The Syrians with the "local coordination committees," the backbone of the resistance in city neighborhoods and villages, are also sticking to their rule of listing as dead only those whose bodies have been found.

But there is also a rapidly growing number of people known as the "mafqudin," who, in many cases, have been missing for months. A second-class society exists within the horrors of Syrian prisons: those who, since March 2011, have been arrested, tortured and released again, or at least whose whereabouts are unknown. There are also the people who simply disappeared after mass arrests. Activists from various cities report that despite all of their efforts to gain information about the mafqudin, neither informants within the system nor released prisoners have been able to help them. They also say that the intelligence services have made no ransom demands in return for signs of life or the release of the missing. "They're all dead," the insurgents assume, "it's just that we can't prove it." They estimate the number of the mafqudin at several tens of thousands. Even last November's restrained UN human rights report on Syria mentions that the number of people who have disappeared without a trace runs "into the thousands."

Fears of Civil War

The insurgents, whose numbers are still growing despite the obvious risks, are caught in a murderous game of Mikado. As long as the regime in Damascus holds up, which it continues to do, even Assad's opponents fear foreign intervention. Members of the opposition living in exile remain divided over the issue. They don't trust the Americans, fearing that their only objective is to strike at Syria to harm Iran. In Turkey, critics of the regime contend that Ankara, by focusing on its criticism of Syria, has forgotten its criticism of Israel. And everyone fears that Syria's religious and ethnic mix would make a civil war inevitable -- as was once the case in Lebanon and as occurred in Iraq starting in 2004.

What guarantee is there that a peaceful, enlightened democracy would develop after the overthrow of Assad? There is no such guarantee. And with each passing day, the prospects of a peaceful transition following the fall of the dictatorship dwindle.

Assad, his somewhat simpleminded brother and the country's supreme military commander, and the generals don't want to go down alone. Or perhaps they still believe that all it takes is even more brutality to subjugate the Syrian people.

But there is no turning back. The quiet dictatorship that Syria was until March 2011, a place where the lines had been clearly drawn ever since Hafez Assad demonstrated in Hama, in 1982, that he would not hesitate to destroy an entire city, will not return -- no matter how many more cities his son and successor, who always looks slightly disoriented, incinerates. The regime lacks the means to permanently ensure that one-fifth of the country can permanently keep the other four-fifths in check. Former Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi was able to buy mercenaries from Chad and Niger, but Syria's foreign currency reserves are already dwindling.


Those in power in Damascus claim to be the protectors of minorities, including the Alawites, the Christians (who are currently trying to remain neutral), the Druze and the Ismaelites (who are hesitantly joining the protests). In reality, however, they are stirring up hatred in order to take members of their own faith hostage. Even most Alawites never benefited much from the dictatorship of their fellow Alawite Assad. In their villages in the north, they are still just as poor as their Sunni neighbors, and now they must also fear retribution for Assad's murders.

The "well-considered inhumanity" once cited by Baron Cloots is, in the case of Syria today, an inhumanity stemming from ignorance and hesitancy. The supposedly unstoppable civil war, which is seen as the main reason for the refusal of foreign powers to intervene, is becoming more likely with each day as those same foreign powers continue to sit on the sidelines and do nothing.

Admittedly, supplying the rebels with weapons and creating protective zones near the Turkish border, for example, have the potential to unleash an inferno. But doing nothing will inevitably bring it about.
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Re: The Syria Thread

Post by monster_gardener »

Hans Bulvai wrote:He is no patriot Azari.
He is a murderer. The power that you speak of want him out because they have different plans for the region, not because he is a patriot. There is no difference what so ever between Saddam and the Assads. Both were needed then they got turned on. Golan have been in Israel's hands for how long now and all the Assads can do is repress their own people. Saddam lobbed a few rockets at Israel which till today make him a hero in the eyes of the people of the ME. Not so much Bashar. Both Saddam and the Assads killed their own people. Both ruled with an iron fist with fear as the main mechanism. Both were stooges in the grand agenda and like the rest, he will fall. We agree that whats next is much worse though.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 85,00.html
"Humanity compels us to retaliate against murderers," the man wrote, "but politics forces us to remain unmoving spectators. Our poorly considered humanity would be more gruesome than our well-considered inhumanity." These words, which sound like a more elegant version of the Western nations' tepid statements of solidarity with the Syrian insurgents, were penned 221 years ago by Jean Baptiste Cloots, a baron who had emigrated from the Lower Rhine region to France to join the revolution.


All the same, Cloots' words are depressingly contemporary. In 1791, it was the residents of Liège who revolted against their regime and looked to France for support, albeit in vain.

Today it is the entire world that looks on helplessly as the regime of Syrian President Bashar Assad wages a brutal campaign against its own people, seemingly unable to prevent it from massacring a rebellious population in city after city, attacking residential neighborhoods for days at a time with rockets, shrapnel grenades, snipers and, as it did in Homs, even with knives and hatchets.

The victims' only crime is that they have been protesting peacefully since March of 2011, first for reforms and freedom, and then for the overthrow of a dictatorship in power since 1970, legitimized by nothing more than a coup and its ability to keep the population in a constant state of fear.

It almost seems as if the world community had exhausted its ability to express empathy with its intervention in Libya, and as if the "responsibility to protect" people against genocide and crimes against humanity resolved by the United Nations General Assembly in 2005 were nothing but a flag fluttering in the wind of changing interests.

The West Masks Its Own Helplessness

The watered-down draft of a resolution against Syria, which Russia and China rejected in the Security Council on Feb. 4, had already been stripped of anything that could have put the Syrian regime in check. It called for neither sanctions nor a freeze on arms shipments to Syria, and it made no mention of a Libyan-style military intervention.

What could such a resolution have achieved, in the presence of a military so determined to crush the rebellion that it murders its fellow Syrians and rapes children in the presence of their fathers? A military whose supreme commander cheerfully tells the United Nations Human Rights Council that the government is merely fighting terrorists and armed outlaws? A regime whose intelligence services fire on government troops who refuse to participate in the killing of civilians, stage fake attacks and fire on their own people in order to pin the blame on the "terrorists?"

Probably nothing.

The regime feels so confident that it began its major offensive against Homs and other cities on the evening before the vote in the UN Security Council. And while tank shells and missiles rained down on the insurgents the next day, the state news agency Sana tweeted, in its "event calendar" for Feb. 4: "Happy Hour 2 for 1 drinks at Mood Lounge, #Damascus."

It's happy hour for Bashar Assad. But he isn't the only one who can be feeling grateful to Russia and China these days. Germany, the United States and other Western countries were quick to express their disgust and consternation over Russia's nyet, describing the complicity between the cynics in Moscow and Damascus as intolerable. Nevertheless, it also provides the West with a scapegoat, and thus the ability to mask its own helplessness with its condemnation of the Russians.

The Arab League, which had previously sent a team of observers to Syria, didn't stand a chance. Without their own vehicles, not to mention helicopters, which the UN inspectors once had in Iraq, the 165 observers in their orange signal vests were dependent on the Syrian military -- and on being chauffeured around by the very thugs they were supposed to be there to stop.

The European External Action Service, which was intended to serve as Europe's joint foreign policy task force, will "take years to become capable of taking action," says one of its diplomats. The funds are available, but the service still lacks a mission statement describing what exactly its positions are.

In an off-the-record conversation, a senior German politician reflexively emphasizes the need to address the refugee question. But the Syrians don't want to leave their country. They want to bring down the dictatorship and live in freedom. Around 20,000 people have fled to Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey, leaving behind hundreds of thousands who continue to risk their lives in Syria.

'We Don't Know How Much Longer We Can Last'

"I am speaking from Bab Amr," a man says. It is difficult to understand what he is saying, amid the surrounding explosions last Friday, as he speaks on the last functioning Skype connection from the neighborhood in Homs that has been in the hands of the insurgents since the late fall. "We are the last people still in contact with the outside world," says Omar Shakir, a spokesman for the neighborhood, dressed warmly against the cold. He says that the last of the diesel fuel is being used to run a generator used to keep their satellite connection alive.

"For seven days now, we have had no electricity and no water, and all phone lines are dead. We don't know how much longer we can last." He says that tanks positioned on the city's outskirts have been bombarding the neighborhood nonstop. "We have enough bread left for two days, but no medications, no bandages, nothing to treat the wounded." The most important underground hospital was destroyed in a targeted bombing last Wednesday, he says, and the wounded are now being taken to the mosques to die.

After days of silence, an email was received from the Khalidiya neighborhood in the northern part of Homs, where SPIEGEL reporters were accompanied in August and December by an engineering student who had used the name "Omar Astalavista" and kept news agencies updated on the situation there. The message read: "Omar is dead. He was filming when he was hit by a grenade. I'm his friend. We had agreed that if one of us died, the other one would take over."

Homs is only the beginning. Tank battalions are on their way to Idlib in the north. Assad's troops have withdrawn from the center of the southern city of Daraa, which is exactly what happened in Homs before the shelling began. This is apparently part of a comprehensive plan to enable the generals to bring their troops to safety first.

None of this is happening in secret. Syria is the first YouTube war in history. Thousands of blurred clips from countless cities and villages have documented the escalation of the rebellion since last spring. The videos taken in recent weeks show people with severed limbs as they lay dying, the bodies of others run over by tanks and piles of corpses, many of which were so gruesome that YouTube restricted access to registered users only.

But everything is available. Anyone who is interested can find daily videos depicting the situation in almost every major city, and with the exception of an old torture video from Saddam Hussein's Iraq, there has been little reason to doubt the authenticity of the images.

The only problem is that few people want to watch the videos in the first place.

Human Rights Groups Estimate 6,000 Dead

Meanwhile, the situation is even worse than it looks. Last week the United Nations, Amnesty International and other organizations that keep track of the dead estimated the current death toll at about 6,000. This number is derived from the names of those whose deaths were confirmed by relatives, doctors or the imams organizing their funerals. But even an international diplomat concedes: "The death toll is presumably much higher; it's just that we don't know about it." The Syrians with the "local coordination committees," the backbone of the resistance in city neighborhoods and villages, are also sticking to their rule of listing as dead only those whose bodies have been found.

But there is also a rapidly growing number of people known as the "mafqudin," who, in many cases, have been missing for months. A second-class society exists within the horrors of Syrian prisons: those who, since March 2011, have been arrested, tortured and released again, or at least whose whereabouts are unknown. There are also the people who simply disappeared after mass arrests. Activists from various cities report that despite all of their efforts to gain information about the mafqudin, neither informants within the system nor released prisoners have been able to help them. They also say that the intelligence services have made no ransom demands in return for signs of life or the release of the missing. "They're all dead," the insurgents assume, "it's just that we can't prove it." They estimate the number of the mafqudin at several tens of thousands. Even last November's restrained UN human rights report on Syria mentions that the number of people who have disappeared without a trace runs "into the thousands."

Fears of Civil War

The insurgents, whose numbers are still growing despite the obvious risks, are caught in a murderous game of Mikado. As long as the regime in Damascus holds up, which it continues to do, even Assad's opponents fear foreign intervention. Members of the opposition living in exile remain divided over the issue. They don't trust the Americans, fearing that their only objective is to strike at Syria to harm Iran. In Turkey, critics of the regime contend that Ankara, by focusing on its criticism of Syria, has forgotten its criticism of Israel. And everyone fears that Syria's religious and ethnic mix would make a civil war inevitable -- as was once the case in Lebanon and as occurred in Iraq starting in 2004.

What guarantee is there that a peaceful, enlightened democracy would develop after the overthrow of Assad? There is no such guarantee. And with each passing day, the prospects of a peaceful transition following the fall of the dictatorship dwindle.

Assad, his somewhat simpleminded brother and the country's supreme military commander, and the generals don't want to go down alone. Or perhaps they still believe that all it takes is even more brutality to subjugate the Syrian people.

But there is no turning back. The quiet dictatorship that Syria was until March 2011, a place where the lines had been clearly drawn ever since Hafez Assad demonstrated in Hama, in 1982, that he would not hesitate to destroy an entire city, will not return -- no matter how many more cities his son and successor, who always looks slightly disoriented, incinerates. The regime lacks the means to permanently ensure that one-fifth of the country can permanently keep the other four-fifths in check. Former Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi was able to buy mercenaries from Chad and Niger, but Syria's foreign currency reserves are already dwindling.


Those in power in Damascus claim to be the protectors of minorities, including the Alawites, the Christians (who are currently trying to remain neutral), the Druze and the Ismaelites (who are hesitantly joining the protests). In reality, however, they are stirring up hatred in order to take members of their own faith hostage. Even most Alawites never benefited much from the dictatorship of their fellow Alawite Assad. In their villages in the north, they are still just as poor as their Sunni neighbors, and now they must also fear retribution for Assad's murders.

The "well-considered inhumanity" once cited by Baron Cloots is, in the case of Syria today, an inhumanity stemming from ignorance and hesitancy. The supposedly unstoppable civil war, which is seen as the main reason for the refusal of foreign powers to intervene, is becoming more likely with each day as those same foreign powers continue to sit on the sidelines and do nothing.

Admittedly, supplying the rebels with weapons and creating protective zones near the Turkish border, for example, have the potential to unleash an inferno. But doing nothing will inevitably bring it about.
Thank you VERY Much for your post, Hans.

Something I likely would not have seen otherwise. Greatly appreciated.
the Christians (who are currently trying to remain neutral),
I understand the impulse but.......... often a way to get in even more trouble........... No matter who wins, they may despise you.........

If you need to stay neutral and are weak, time to leave............. if you can....................
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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