Egypt

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monster_gardener
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Muslim Gangsters....Re: Comparing Our Mutual Bastardy

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
For the last 1000 yrs, Middle Eastern people of Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith have lived in peace, harmony .. they went through same hardship or joy in life, lived in peace next to each other .. they respected each other .
Not really.......

In general the dominant Muslims despised the Christians, Jews and other barely tolerated faiths and were intent on slowly or quickly grinding them into submission & conversion to Islam by pretty near whatever means necessary.

Obvious falsehood. Forced conversion is expressly prohibited, Christian and Jewish minorities were protected within Islamic empires for 1300 years. Compare with American genocide of their own indigenous population. Over %10 of the Egyptian population is Coptic. What percentage of the American population is indigenous, and what percentage of those follow their traditional religion? Clearly another case of hypocrisy.
Thanks for the post, iBS.
Obvious falsehood.
Evidence to the contrary, iBS.......
Ahmad Sirhindi
The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims… The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam.
Sufi saint Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624), letter No. 163
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... ars:Jizyah

Forced conversion is expressly prohibited,
Hello Ibrahim ;-)............. Just because something is officially prohibited doesn't mean that it doesn't happen... Sometime frequently........

Did you bother to click on the link I gave Azari? :lol: :roll:

Here are some examples from the link for you..........
In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam.
In the 19th century, there were many instances of forced conversions and massacres, usually inspired by the Shi'a clergy. A representative of the Alliance Israélite Universelle, a Jewish humanitarian and educational organization, wrote from Tehran in 1894: "…every time that a priest wishes to emerge from obscurity and win a reputation for piety, he preaches war against the Jews".[18] In 1830, the Jews of Tabriz were massacred; the same year saw a forcible conversion of the Jews of Shiraz. In 1839, many Jews were massacred in Mashhad and survivors were forcibly converted. However, European travellers later reported that the Jews of Tabriz and Shiraz continued to practice Judaism in secret despite a fear of further persecutions. Jews of Barforush were forcibly converted in 1866;
Christian and Jewish minorities were protected within Islamic empires for 1300 years.
Often protected the same way the Mafia "protects" its extortion victims from itself except that the Mafia tends not to punch you on the jaw when you pay on time as detailed in this SOP for Muslim Government Gangsters ;) :twisted: :evil:
...the dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya …on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]...[4] Al-Ghazali (1101
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... ars:Jizyah
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Re: Muslim Gangsters....Re: Comparing Our Mutual Bastardy

Post by Ibrahim »

monster_gardener wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Obvious falsehood.
Evidence to the contrary, iBS.......
Ahmad Sirhindi
The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims… The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam.
Sufi saint Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624), letter No. 163
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... ars:Jizyah
I've never heard of this nor am I familiar with this website which seems to be a collection of convenient Hadith quotes for Western bigots, but jizya was taxation in lieu of military service, which non-Muslims were not obligated to provide. Thus they were protected (dhimmi = potected) by the state and paid tax for the service, but as modern citizens are taxed, in part paying for national defense.



Forced conversion is expressly prohibited,
Hello Ibrahim............. Just because something is officially prohibited doesn't mean that it doesn't happen...
The relevant point being that is expressly prohibited, invalidating your false claims.


Here are some examples from the link for you..........
In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam.
In the 19th century, there were many instances of forced conversions and massacres,
Sounds bad. Oh wait, look at this:
A much bloodier wave of pogroms broke out from 1903 to 1906, leaving an estimated 2,000 Jews dead and many more wounded, as the Jews took to arms to defend their families and property from the attackers. The 1905 pogrom against Jews in Odessa was the most serious pogrom of the period, with reports of up to 2,500 Jews killed.[9]
The New York Times described the First Kishinev pogrom of Easter, 1903:

"The anti-Jewish riots in Kishinev, Bessarabia [modern Moldova], are worse than the censor will permit to publish. There was a well laid-out plan for the general massacre of Jews on the day following the Orthodox Easter. The mob was led by priests, and the general cry, "Kill the Jews", was taken up all over the city. The Jews were taken wholly unaware and were slaughtered like sheep. The dead number 120 [Note: the actual number of dead was 47–48[10]] and the injured about 500. The scenes of horror attending this massacre are beyond description. Babies were literally torn to pieces by the frenzied and bloodthirsty mob. The local police made no attempt to check the reign of terror. At sunset the streets were piled with corpses and wounded. Those who could make their escape fled in terror, and the city is now practically deserted of Jews."[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewis ... ian_Empire

The call for the First Crusade touched off the pogroms of 1096[1] or the Rhineland massacres,[2] also known as the persecutions of 1096 or Gezeroth Tatenu.[3] As part of this persecution, the destruction of the three towns of Speyer, Worms and Mainz were noted as the "Hurban Shum" (Destruction of Shum).[4] These were new persecutions of the Jews in which peasant crusaders from France and Germany attacked Jewish communities.

According to David Nirenberg,[5] the events of 1096 in the Rhineland "occupy a significant place in modern Jewish historiography and are often presented as the first instance of an antisemitism that would henceforth never be forgotten and whose climax was the Holocaust."[6]

...

There had not been so broad a movement against Jews by Christians since the seventh century's mass expulsions and forced conversions. While there had been a number of regional persecutions of Jews by Christians, such as the one in Metz in 888, a plot against Jews in Limoges in 992, a wave of anti-Jewish persecution by Christian millenniary movements (who believed that Jesus was set to descend from Heaven) in the year 1000, and the threat of expulsion from Treves in 1066; these are all viewed “in the traditional terms of governmental outlawry rather than unbridled popular attacks.”[8] Also many movements against Jews (such as forced conversions by King Robert the Pious of France, Richard II, Duke of Normandy, and Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor around 1007–1012) had been quashed by either Roman Catholicism’s Papacy or its Bishops.[8] The passions aroused in the Christian populace by Urban II’s call for the first crusade moved persecution of Jews into a new chapter in history where these previous constants no longer held.

The extent of the era's antisemitism is apparent in Godfrey of Bouillon, who swore
“to go on this journey only after avenging the blood of the crucified one by shedding Jewish blood and completely eradicating any trace of those bearing the name 'Jew,' thus assuaging his own burning wrath.”[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_of_1096

In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lut ... tisemitism

By your logic Christianity must promote the mass-murder of Jews, just as you support the mass-murder of Egyptian and Rohingya Muslims, or the harassment and dehumanization of Palestinian Christians and Muslims.

Christian and Jewish minorities were protected within Islamic empires for 1300 years.
Often protected the same way the Mafia "protects" its extortion victims from itself except that the Mafia tends not to punch you on the jaw when you pay on time as detailed in this SOP for Muslim Government Gangsters ;)
A prejudicially motivated falsehood. It is an Islamic obligation to protect Christians and Jews specifically. You are repeating nonsense you've heard, this claim is contrary to historical fact.
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Re: Comparing Our Mutual Bastardy

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: Obvious falsehood. Forced conversion is expressly prohibited, Christian and Jewish minorities were protected within Islamic empires for 1300 years. Compare with American genocide of their own indigenous population. Over %10 of the Egyptian population is Coptic. What percentage of the American population is indigenous, and what percentage of those follow their traditional religion? Clearly another case of hypocrisy.
You live in Canada right? Are you first nations or something else.
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Re: Muslim Gangsters Re: Comparing Our Mutual Bastardy

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Obvious falsehood.
Evidence to the contrary, iBS.......
Ahmad Sirhindi
The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims… The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling. It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam.
Sufi saint Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624), letter No. 163
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Had ... ars:Jizyah
I've never heard of this nor am I familiar with this website which seems to be a collection of convenient Hadith quotes for Western bigots, but jizya was taxation in lieu of military service, which non-Muslims were not obligated to provide. Thus they were protected (dhimmi = potected) by the state and paid tax for the service, but as modern citizens are taxed, in part paying for national defense.



Forced conversion is expressly prohibited,
Hello Ibrahim............. Just because something is officially prohibited doesn't mean that it doesn't happen...
The relevant point being that is expressly prohibited, invalidating your false claims.


Here are some examples from the link for you..........
In 1656, all Jews were expelled from Isfahan because of the common belief of their impurity and forced to convert to Islam.
In the 19th century, there were many instances of forced conversions and massacres,
Sounds bad. Oh wait, look at this:
A much bloodier wave of pogroms broke out from 1903 to 1906, leaving an estimated 2,000 Jews dead and many more wounded, as the Jews took to arms to defend their families and property from the attackers. The 1905 pogrom against Jews in Odessa was the most serious pogrom of the period, with reports of up to 2,500 Jews killed.[9]
The New York Times described the First Kishinev pogrom of Easter, 1903:

"The anti-Jewish riots in Kishinev, Bessarabia [modern Moldova], are worse than the censor will permit to publish. There was a well laid-out plan for the general massacre of Jews on the day following the Orthodox Easter. The mob was led by priests, and the general cry, "Kill the Jews", was taken up all over the city. The Jews were taken wholly unaware and were slaughtered like sheep. The dead number 120 [Note: the actual number of dead was 47–48[10]] and the injured about 500. The scenes of horror attending this massacre are beyond description. Babies were literally torn to pieces by the frenzied and bloodthirsty mob. The local police made no attempt to check the reign of terror. At sunset the streets were piled with corpses and wounded. Those who could make their escape fled in terror, and the city is now practically deserted of Jews."[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewis ... ian_Empire

The call for the First Crusade touched off the pogroms of 1096[1] or the Rhineland massacres,[2] also known as the persecutions of 1096 or Gezeroth Tatenu.[3] As part of this persecution, the destruction of the three towns of Speyer, Worms and Mainz were noted as the "Hurban Shum" (Destruction of Shum).[4] These were new persecutions of the Jews in which peasant crusaders from France and Germany attacked Jewish communities.

According to David Nirenberg,[5] the events of 1096 in the Rhineland "occupy a significant place in modern Jewish historiography and are often presented as the first instance of an antisemitism that would henceforth never be forgotten and whose climax was the Holocaust."[6]

...

There had not been so broad a movement against Jews by Christians since the seventh century's mass expulsions and forced conversions. While there had been a number of regional persecutions of Jews by Christians, such as the one in Metz in 888, a plot against Jews in Limoges in 992, a wave of anti-Jewish persecution by Christian millenniary movements (who believed that Jesus was set to descend from Heaven) in the year 1000, and the threat of expulsion from Treves in 1066; these are all viewed “in the traditional terms of governmental outlawry rather than unbridled popular attacks.”[8] Also many movements against Jews (such as forced conversions by King Robert the Pious of France, Richard II, Duke of Normandy, and Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor around 1007–1012) had been quashed by either Roman Catholicism’s Papacy or its Bishops.[8] The passions aroused in the Christian populace by Urban II’s call for the first crusade moved persecution of Jews into a new chapter in history where these previous constants no longer held.

The extent of the era's antisemitism is apparent in Godfrey of Bouillon, who swore
“to go on this journey only after avenging the blood of the crucified one by shedding Jewish blood and completely eradicating any trace of those bearing the name 'Jew,' thus assuaging his own burning wrath.”[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogroms_of_1096

In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lut ... tisemitism

By your logic Christianity must promote the mass-murder of Jews, just as you support the mass-murder of Egyptian and Rohingya Muslims, or the harassment and dehumanization of Palestinian Christians and Muslims.

Christian and Jewish minorities were protected within Islamic empires for 1300 years.
Often protected the same way the Mafia "protects" its extortion victims from itself except that the Mafia tends not to punch you on the jaw when you pay on time as detailed in this SOP for Muslim Government Gangsters ;)
A prejudicially motivated falsehood. It is an Islamic obligation to protect Christians and Jews specifically. You are repeating nonsense you've heard, this claim is contrary to historical fact.
Thanks for the post, iBS.

The relevant point being that is expressly prohibited, invalidating your false claims.
Wrong.

Azari was claiming:
For the last 1000 yrs, Middle Eastern people of Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith have lived in peace, harmony .. they went through same hardship or joy in life, lived in peace next to each other .. they respected each other .
The relevant point is that in the Middle East, Jews, Christians, and Islamic faith freaks a.k.a. Muslims did NOT live in peace and harmony etc. as evidenced by the examples quoted above and in previous posts.

A prejudicially motivated falsehood.
Nope. Not false.
It is an Islamic obligation to protect Christians and Jews specifically.
That is twistedly hilarious given that the Muslim gangsters were protecting the non Muslims from the Muslim gangsters for a hefty fee.

Islam as historically experienced by non Muslims has often been an murder, rape, robbery and extortion racket, like the Mafia but nastier as shown in that SOP :twisted: quoted above written by the noted Muslim jurist, Ghazali.


Otherwise thanks for all the examples supporting my contention that humans have a Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey nature and frequently act like Killer Apes whether they are Atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims or otherwise...........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
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Re: Muslim Gangsters Re: Comparing Our Mutual Bastardy

Post by Ibrahim »

monster_gardener wrote:
The relevant point being that is expressly prohibited, invalidating your false claims.
Wrong.

Azari was claiming:
For the last 1000 yrs, Middle Eastern people of Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith have lived in peace, harmony .. they went through same hardship or joy in life, lived in peace next to each other .. they respected each other .
The relevant point is that in the Middle East, Jews, Christians, and Islamic faith freaks a.k.a. Muslims did NOT live in peace and harmony etc. as evidenced by the examples quoted above and in previous posts.
False. You posted two examples, which over a period of 1300 years would constitute and exception and not a rule. I posted three examples of Christian atrocities against Jews, so I guess we can conclude using your own logic that Christians are %33 more violent and anti-Semitic than Muslims.

Nope. Not false.
Yes, false. As I've both demonstrated and explained.


It is an Islamic obligation to protect Christians and Jews specifically.
That is twistedly hilarious given that the Muslim gangsters were protecting the non Muslims from the Muslim gangsters for a hefty fee.
Another falsehood motivated by bigotry. They were protected by the armed forces of the state, and paid taxes in return. This allowed them to live in safety and prosperity in some of the greatest civilizations in the history of the world, often at times when Christian barbarians were murdering Jews en mass because they were too lazy to travel to the Holy Land to murder Jews, Muslims and Orthodox Christians (including Copts) there.

Copts make up %10 of the Egyptian population today specifically because they were protected for over a thousand years by Islamic law in Islamic empires.


Islam as historically experienced by non Muslims has often been an murder, rape, robbery and extortion racket,
I blatant falsehood, as I have demonstrated. Repeating falsehoods accomplishes nothing but to further prove my accusations about your motivations and methods. Furthermore, the US military as experienced over the last 13 years by some of the poorest people in the world has been as an institution of murderers, torturers and rapists. So not only are your arguments obviously false, they are backwards.
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Re: Muslim Gangsters Re: Comparing Our Mutual Bastardy

Post by monster_gardener »

Ibrahim wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
The relevant point being that is expressly prohibited, invalidating your false claims.
Wrong.

Azari was claiming:
For the last 1000 yrs, Middle Eastern people of Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith have lived in peace, harmony .. they went through same hardship or joy in life, lived in peace next to each other .. they respected each other .
The relevant point is that in the Middle East, Jews, Christians, and Islamic faith freaks a.k.a. Muslims did NOT live in peace and harmony etc. as evidenced by the examples quoted above and in previous posts.
False. You posted two examples, which over a period of 1300 years would constitute and exception and not a rule. I posted three examples of Christian atrocities against Jews, so I guess we can conclude using your own logic that Christians are %33 more violent and anti-Semitic than Muslims.

Nope. Not false.
Yes, false. As I've both demonstrated and explained.


It is an Islamic obligation to protect Christians and Jews specifically.
That is twistedly hilarious given that the Muslim gangsters were protecting the non Muslims from the Muslim gangsters for a hefty fee.
Another falsehood motivated by bigotry. They were protected by the armed forces of the state, and paid taxes in return. This allowed them to live in safety and prosperity in some of the greatest civilizations in the history of the world, often at times when Christian barbarians were murdering Jews en mass because they were too lazy to travel to the Holy Land to murder Jews, Muslims and Orthodox Christians (including Copts) there.

Copts make up %10 of the Egyptian population today specifically because they were protected for over a thousand years by Islamic law in Islamic empires.


Islam as historically experienced by non Muslims has often been an murder, rape, robbery and extortion racket,
I blatant falsehood, as I have demonstrated. Repeating falsehoods accomplishes nothing but to further prove my accusations about your motivations and methods. Furthermore, the US military as experienced over the last 13 years by some of the poorest people in the world has been as an institution of murderers, torturers and rapists. So not only are your arguments obviously false, they are backwards.
Thanks for the post, iBS.
False. You posted two examples, which over a period of 1300 years would constitute and exception and not a rule. I posted three examples of Christian atrocities against Jews, so I guess we can conclude using your own logic that Christians are %33 more violent and anti-Semitic than Muslims.
Is the problem that you don't read ;) or that you don't count ? ;) :twisted: :lol:

Click on the link in my original reply to Azari..... Read! ..... Count if you care to ... In any case, more examples than two........... :roll:

Here, I'll even make it easy for you ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ws_in_Iran

Again:
Otherwise thanks for all the examples supporting my contention that humans have a Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey nature and frequently act like Killer Apes whether they are Atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims or otherwise...........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
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Re: m_g's nonsense

Post by Ibrahim »

monster_gardener wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:
The relevant point being that is expressly prohibited, invalidating your false claims.
Wrong.

Azari was claiming:
For the last 1000 yrs, Middle Eastern people of Jewish, Christian and Islamic faith have lived in peace, harmony .. they went through same hardship or joy in life, lived in peace next to each other .. they respected each other .
The relevant point is that in the Middle East, Jews, Christians, and Islamic faith freaks a.k.a. Muslims did NOT live in peace and harmony etc. as evidenced by the examples quoted above and in previous posts.
False. You posted two examples, which over a period of 1300 years would constitute and exception and not a rule. I posted three examples of Christian atrocities against Jews, so I guess we can conclude using your own logic that Christians are %33 more violent and anti-Semitic than Muslims.

Nope. Not false.
Yes, false. As I've both demonstrated and explained.


It is an Islamic obligation to protect Christians and Jews specifically.
That is twistedly hilarious given that the Muslim gangsters were protecting the non Muslims from the Muslim gangsters for a hefty fee.
Another falsehood motivated by bigotry. They were protected by the armed forces of the state, and paid taxes in return. This allowed them to live in safety and prosperity in some of the greatest civilizations in the history of the world, often at times when Christian barbarians were murdering Jews en mass because they were too lazy to travel to the Holy Land to murder Jews, Muslims and Orthodox Christians (including Copts) there.

Copts make up %10 of the Egyptian population today specifically because they were protected for over a thousand years by Islamic law in Islamic empires.


Islam as historically experienced by non Muslims has often been an murder, rape, robbery and extortion racket,
I blatant falsehood, as I have demonstrated. Repeating falsehoods accomplishes nothing but to further prove my accusations about your motivations and methods. Furthermore, the US military as experienced over the last 13 years by some of the poorest people in the world has been as an institution of murderers, torturers and rapists. So not only are your arguments obviously false, they are backwards.
Thanks for the post, Ibrahim.
False. You posted two examples, which over a period of 1300 years would constitute and exception and not a rule. I posted three examples of Christian atrocities against Jews, so I guess we can conclude using your own logic that Christians are %33 more violent and anti-Semitic than Muslims.
Is the problem that you don't read ;) or that you don't count ? ;) :twisted: :lol:

Click on the link in my original reply to Azari..... Read! ..... Count if you care to ... In any case, more examples than two........... :roll:

Here, I'll even make it easy for you ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... ws_in_Iran
:roll: Ok, more atrocities. I can post examples of Christians massacring Jews all day too, but you seem to think this is a contest rather than a moot point. If you can't think beyond this kind of gutter argument and continue posting a non-sequitur example of historical violence then I'll be able to do the same every single time. You don't see the hypocrisy in your own arguments (and that's aside from the slurs and falsehoods you employ constantly).

Several of you have this same moral failing. You don't really have a problem with the methods, just the targets.
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Re: Egypt

Post by noddy »

barring a few isolated cultures for who the origins are long since lost their is not a single surviving culture which has not done its fair share of genocide and slaughter, one does have to keep shifting goal posts to avoid it.

except iran of course, they are blameless in all things all times.
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Re: m_g's nonsense

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: :roll: Ok, more atrocities. I can post examples of Christians massacring Jews all day too, but you seem to think this is a contest rather than a moot point. If you can't think beyond this kind of gutter argument and continue posting a non-sequitur example of historical violence then I'll be able to do the same every single time. You don't see the hypocrisy in your own arguments (and that's aside from the slurs and falsehoods you employ constantly).

Several of you have this same moral failing. You don't really have a problem with the methods, just the targets.
Actually ibs I think the issue is that some cultures have come to grips with these issues, stopped doing them, and admit the wrongs of the past, while others have not.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

noddy wrote:barring a few isolated cultures for who the origins are long since lost their is not a single surviving culture which has not done its fair share of genocide and slaughter, one does have to keep shifting goal posts to avoid it.
I would have thought the trick would be to pick really specific dates to try and shave off some of your team's atrocities and center on some of the other team's. But apparently that's too scientific, the move is to just say whatever you want with a total absence of self-reflection.



except iran of course, they are blameless in all things all times.
That's always the way. My mother is better than your mother and my dad can beat up your dad.
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A Wise Old Crow nods in agreement....

Post by monster_gardener »

noddy wrote:barring a few isolated cultures for who the origins are long since lost their is not a single surviving culture which has not done its fair share of genocide and slaughter, one does have to keep shifting goal posts to avoid it.

except iran of course, they are blameless in all things all times.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, noddy.
barring a few isolated cultures for who the origins are long since lost their is not a single surviving culture which has not done its fair share of genocide and slaughter, one does have to keep shifting goal posts to avoid it.
I suspect this wise old Crow would agree with you.....
"I hear the white men say there will be no more war. But this cannot be true. There will be other wars. Men have not changed, and whenever they quarrel they will fight, as they have always done."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenty_Coups#Quotations
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Re: Egypt

Post by Doc »

http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-chil ... 96013.html
Child Killed by Gunfire in Egypt's Suez City Clashes

November 22, 2013
CAIRO — A 10-year-old boy was shot dead on Friday near the scene of clashes between supporters and opponents of deposed Islamist president Mohamed Morsi in Egypt's northern city of Suez, security and medical sources said.

In Cairo, a 21-year-old man died after being shot in the chest during clashes between pro- and anti-Morsi protesters, and across the country another 14 people were injured in confrontations, the head of the ambulance authority told the state newspaper al-Ahram.

Morsi's supporters have staged frequent protests across Egypt, many of them after Friday prayers, since the army deposed him on July 3 in response to mass protests against his rule. They have arrested most of the top leaders of his Muslim Brotherhood, accusing them of fomenting violence or terrorism.

In a statement, the Interior Ministry accused the Brotherhood on Friday of trying to prolong instability in Egypt, and said security forces were doing their best to protect property and maintain security.

The Brotherhood says it is opposed to violence, and that such allegations are a pretext for its suppression.

In the central Awel-el-soor neighborhood of Suez, around 500 supporters of Morsi gathered and chanted slogans against the army and police. Clashes broke out with opponents of Morsi and rocks were thrown and shots exchanged, witnesses said.

The boy, Samir El-Gamal, was hit by a stray bullet in the back of the head while walking with his mother near the clashes, the sources said. His mother was unharmed, but the boy died on the spot.

Members of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood accused the security forces of using live rounds to disperse their protest, residents of Suez said. Police said the bullets had come from the opponents of the protesters, not from security forces.

The child's family accused the Brotherhood of responsibility for their child's death, the state news agency MENA said.

The interim government installed in July has promised a return to democratic rule next year, under a new constitution. For now, the political turmoil that has gripped Egypt since the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak in early 2011 continues to undermine both stability and economic growth.

Elsewhere in Cairo, hundreds of pro-Brotherhood protesters tried to force their way into the embassy of the United Arab Emirates and attacked its guards, but police used teargas to disperse them, the state newspaper al-Ahram said.

Since Morsi was deposed, the UAE and other Gulf Arab allies have shown strong support to the interim government, pledging billions of dollars to help shore up Egypt's fragile finances.

In the Nozha area of central Cairo, pro-Morsi protesters threw petrol bombs at two carriages of a tram, but police put out the fire, security sources and MENA said.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Doc
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Re: Egypt

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25066115
Egypt expels Turkish ambassador
Mohammed Morsi on trial in a Cairo courtroom on 4 November 2013 Mr Morsi is facing trial on charges of inciting murder and violence
Continue reading the main story
Egypt in crisis

Egypt has told the Turkish ambassador to leave the country and downgraded relations between the two countries.

It follows remarks by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan that Cairo deemed "provocative".

Egypt's foreign ministry said relations with Ankara would be lowered to charge d'affaires, blaming Turkey's continued "interference" in its internal affairs.

Turkey has been a vocal critic of the military overthrow of Islamist President Mohammed Morsi in July.

Mr Morsi, who is in prison awaiting trial, has denounced as illegitimate the court that is trying him on charges of inciting murder and violence.

He is one of thousands of Muslim Brotherhood members that have been detained in a crackdown the interim authorities have portrayed as a struggle against "terrorism".

Hundreds of people have also been killed in clashes with security forces.
Bitter row

Cairo's decision to expel Ambassador Huseyin Avni Botsali comes a day after Mr Erdogan called for the release of Mr Morsi.

The Turkish premier again condemned the violent dispersal of pro-Morsi protesters in August by Egyptian security forces.
Egyptian activists and pro-government protesters demonstrate outside the Turkish embassy in Cairo (August 2013) Egyptians have held protests outside the Turkish embassy in Cairo

A bitter row at the time led both countries to recall their ambassadors. Turkey's ambassador to Cairo returned in September, but the Egyptian ambassador to Turkey was never reinstalled.

Speaking on Saturday, Egypt's Foreign Ministry spokesman said Mr Erdogan's remarks were "provocative and interfering in Egypt's internal affairs".

Turkey is "attempting to influence public opinion against Egyptian interests, supported meetings of organisations that seek to create instability in the country", Badr Abdelatty said.

Mr Erdogan, like Mr Morsi, has his roots in political Islam. Ankara and Istanbul have hosted a series of meetings of the international Muslim Brotherhood.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

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The official position of Turkey is pro-democracy. Thus, the Turkish government opposed to coup and military rule under Sisi. This should be the obvious position for all democratic countries re: Egypt.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Egyptian military held in power by Saudi Arabia and UAE and Kuwait money

Saudi Arabia (representing the Sheiks) considers Egypt as their "strategic dept"

Once Al Saud falls, all cards will collapse, including Egypt and Yemen and and

Turkey, re Egypt, on the right side .. Egypt will revert to Muslim Brotherhood

.
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Re: Egypt

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Ibrahim wrote:The official position of Turkey is pro-democracy. Thus, the Turkish government opposed to coup and military rule under Sisi. This should be the obvious position for all democratic countries re: Egypt.
Interesting. Does Turkey's strong democratic feelings prevents it having a full fledged embassy in Belarus? Or in Cuba? Or in Vietnam? Or in Saudi Arabia?... No? Why not?...
Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The official position of Turkey is pro-democracy. Thus, the Turkish government opposed to coup and military rule under Sisi. This should be the obvious position for all democratic countries re: Egypt.
Interesting. Does Turkey's strong democratic feelings prevents it having a full fledged embassy in Belarus? Or in Cuba? Or in Vietnam? Or in Saudi Arabia?... No? Why not?...
None of those countries are currently undergoing violent military coups that are trying to sell themselves as something else. Every country has diplomatic ties with some stable autocratic states, including the ones you listed.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The official position of Turkey is pro-democracy. Thus, the Turkish government opposed to coup and military rule under Sisi. This should be the obvious position for all democratic countries re: Egypt.
Interesting. Does Turkey's strong democratic feelings prevents it having a full fledged embassy in Belarus? Or in Cuba? Or in Vietnam? Or in Saudi Arabia?... No? Why not?...
None of those countries are currently undergoing violent military coups that are trying to sell themselves as something else. Every country has diplomatic ties with some stable autocratic states, including the ones you listed.
So, if Egypt holds on a bit longer, maybe six months or a year, Turkey will be happy to resume full diplomatic ties with it...
Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The official position of Turkey is pro-democracy. Thus, the Turkish government opposed to coup and military rule under Sisi. This should be the obvious position for all democratic countries re: Egypt.
Interesting. Does Turkey's strong democratic feelings prevents it having a full fledged embassy in Belarus? Or in Cuba? Or in Vietnam? Or in Saudi Arabia?... No? Why not?...
None of those countries are currently undergoing violent military coups that are trying to sell themselves as something else. Every country has diplomatic ties with some stable autocratic states, including the ones you listed.
So, if Egypt holds on a bit longer, maybe six months or a year, Turkey will be happy to resume full diplomatic ties with it...
Nixon finally when to China in 1972. These things take time. Not stamping out massive pro-democracy protests might speed things along, but you never know.
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Re: Egypt

Post by Doc »

"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Egypt

Post by Heracleum Persicum »


Mubarak mafia, including Al Saud & Co, held everything back (shortage) and sabotaged Morsi with unrest .. some people were fooled thinking Santa bringin gifts

Now, things have changed dramatically, America/West in Iranian camp, Al Saud packing so the Sheiks .. Egyptian corrupt Generals will be overthrown by one of their own, the NEW NASSER, and Morsi will reemerge

.
Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:What is it? Morsi did such a great job that 90% of Egyptians prefer having the generals ?
Where are you getting %90? You think the people who voted for the government Sisi and the army overthrew hated the president so much they wanted a Saudi-backed coup?
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Re: Egypt

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:What is it? Morsi did such a great job that 90% of Egyptians prefer having the generals ?
Where are you getting %90? You think the people who voted for the government Sisi and the army overthrew hated the president so much they wanted a Saudi-backed coup?
I miss wrote I was going for 70%

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/op ... protesters
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Egypt

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:What is it? Morsi did such a great job that 90% of Egyptians prefer having the generals ?
Where are you getting %90? You think the people who voted for the government Sisi and the army overthrew hated the president so much they wanted a Saudi-backed coup?
I miss wrote I was going for 70%

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/op ... protesters
So actually think %70 of the population supports a military coup backed by the Saudi monarchy?

Not only is your claim of %90 wrong, your claim that they "prefer having generals" is also wrong. The article states that the results of a poll show that %71 of people are "not sympathetic" to pro-Morsi protesters, which doesn't mean the support military rule.
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