Israel

Re: Israel

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:34 pm

The source of Israeli influence on US politics has been an inscrutable presence, but its demise is apparent. Now comes the autopsy.
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Re: Israel

Postby Parodite » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:01 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:The source of Israeli influence on US politics has been an inscrutable presence, but its demise is apparent. Now comes the autopsy.


To assess the true impact of the infamous Israeli lobbies like AIPAC is indeed not easy. Given that many Americans are sympathetic to Israel suggests that financial and/or military support would exist even without the AIPACS. The Bibi gang is not forever.. the center-left in Israel might make a come back one day.

As long as fanatics want to blow up Israeli buses and restaurants or try send rockets into Israeli cities.. I'm afraid Israel will have enough support from the US and European nations for the time being even with Bibi-esque dorks at the helm there.

A more interesting question to me is why so many Americans are either blindly supporting Israel.. or resort to its bipolar opposite and condemn the country one-sidedly for all that goes wrong in the Israeli-Arab conflict.. to the point of even blaming Israel for all failing US policies in the meddle east. Where the Jew is always perceived as much bigger or smaller than he really is..or as bright as the Messiah himself or darker than the Devil. I suspect Jesus is behind this bipolar disorder where Christians can't look at Israel or Jews in a normal way. But I will have to check with Dr. Phil before drawing any final conclusions.
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Re: Israel

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:39 pm

Parodite wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:The source of Israeli influence on US politics has been an inscrutable presence, but its demise is apparent. Now comes the autopsy.


To assess the true impact of the infamous Israeli lobbies like AIPAC is indeed not easy. Given that many Americans are sympathetic to Israel suggests that financial and/or military support would exist even without the AIPACS. The Bibi gang is not forever.. the center-left in Israel might make a come back one day.

As long as fanatics want to blow up Israeli buses and restaurants or try send rockets into Israeli cities.. I'm afraid Israel will have enough support from the US and European nations for the time being even with Bibi-esque dorks at the helm there.

A more interesting question to me is why so many Americans are either blindly supporting Israel.. or resort to its bipolar opposite and condemn the country one-sidedly for all that goes wrong in the Israeli-Arab conflict.. to the point of even blaming Israel for all failing US policies in the meddle east. Where the Jew is always perceived as much bigger or smaller than he really is..or as bright as the Messiah himself or darker than the Devil. I suspect Jesus is behind this bipolar disorder where Christians can't look at Israel or Jews in a normal way. But I will have to check with Dr. Phil before drawing any final conclusions.


I am predisposed to a civilized, western republic in the ME. The US needs an ally in such a pivotal region.

I can't remember when the last Palestinian terrorist attack was, but I do remember the Israeli attacks on Gaza. One shot two kills T-shirts. Two American kids murdered for just trying to help. The assasination of Rabin was the game changer for me. Gaza has never used white phosphorus on Israeli children.

Netanyahu must resign, and I want to see a righteous government. When was the last Israeli bus blown up? Impotent fireworks sent up by Mossad agents into uninhabited areas of Israel really don't count.

Israel has always ignored the cries of the prophets. No change there. God speaks, but Israel is deaf. To those with ears, let them hear.
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Re: Israel

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:45 am

Parodite wrote:.

lol HP you right! Israel as footnote.. not on any agenda.. that is exactly where they want to be! They only care about their own safety, basically. Which is contrary to Iran, as Avneri noted, that has imperial plans in the region. Shia and Sunni brethern want to coalesce in their respective domains one way or other. And there is IS to be everybodies trouble.

The problems of Israel are basically over now; stay out of trouble and only punch faces that want to enter their territory whoever they are. The Palestinian Arabs in the Westbank may actually thank Allah that the Lion of Judah will most likely keep ISIS out of the Westbank too.

I wish the Iranian army good luck fighting ISIS and be the savior of all Shia Muslims in the entire Meddle East. A handful for the coming decades if not centuries.

.



"Parodite", you misread the situation

When "Giants", world powers, are repositioning or fighting, tinny "mouses" get "trampled"

Israel, was created and kept alive by "massive" support by world powers, America, Europe, Russia .. each world power had it's own reason to support existence of Israel.

That seems now changing .. present policy in Israel becoming sort of a nuisance for world powers .. much bigger entities were thrown under the bus by "big powers" when things did not make quite sense.

In that sense, have said many times for so long, Israel must find a "quick accommodation" with people in that space .. that is where Iran comet into play

Arabs are pretty much "f*cked up", everybody fighting everybody, Egypt pretty much 85% Muslim-Brotherhood artificially kept with massive Saudi cash will sooner or later revert back to MB, Syria secular fighting Islamist, Persian Golf Arabs days numbered, Turkey falling back into "Hijab" when Iran exiting Hijab

Well, only Iran left leaning back and watching

Notion, Iran has imperial ambition, is for "illiterate" like David Goldman .. he still in 1800

Iran wants to unite Persian culture & civilization space, not conquer them .. same as "Adenauer & De Gaul" united Europe

Israel should put rubbish aside and join "The New Middle East" .. don't forget Israel's only "Golden Age" was as Persian Satrap, and Persia "PAID TWICE" for building the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (google it). :lol:


Nonc Hilaire wrote:The source of Israeli influence on US politics has been an inscrutable presence, but its demise is apparent. Now comes the autopsy.



:lol: :lol: .. (sadly) true


Nonc Hilaire wrote:
I am predisposed to a civilized, western republic in the ME. The US needs an ally in such a pivotal region.

I can't remember when the last Palestinian terrorist attack was, but I do remember the Israeli attacks on Gaza. One shot two kills T-shirts. Two American kids murdered for just trying to help. The assasination of Rabin was the game changer for me. Gaza has never used white phosphorus on Israeli children.

Netanyahu must resign, and I want to see a righteous government. When was the last Israeli bus blown up? Impotent fireworks sent up by Mossad agents into uninhabited areas of Israel really don't count.

Israel has always ignored the cries of the prophets. No change there. God speaks, but Israel is deaf. To those with ears, let them hear.

.



seconded

and

NH, The US needs an ally in such a pivotal region ? ?

Guess what, NH, guess what .. wink wink

Was Israel a good ally of US ? ?

US became from "most loved nation" to "most hated nation" in 50 yrs .. that is when Israel was US ally

Now, Iran will be American (and world powers) ally

lean back and watch


.
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Re: Israel

Postby Parodite » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:11 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:I am predisposed to a civilized, western republic in the ME. The US needs an ally in such a pivotal region.


Too bad such a republic doesn't exist there.

I can't remember when the last Palestinian terrorist attack was, but I do remember the Israeli attacks on Gaza. One shot two kills T-shirts. Two American kids murdered for just trying to help. The assasination of Rabin was the game changer for me. Gaza has never used white phosphorus on Israeli children.


To fresh up your memory on the other side of the violent pan cake.

Netanyahu must resign, and I want to see a righteous government. When was the last Israeli bus blown up? Impotent fireworks sent up by Mossad agents into uninhabited areas of Israel really don't count.

Israel has always ignored the cries of the prophets. No change there. God speaks, but Israel is deaf. To those with ears, let them hear.


I'm hearing you loud and clear and am really sorry Israel doesn't live up to your expectations and standards. It may help to lower your standards though.

Consider Israel a collection, a random sample of human beings from Eastern and Western Europe, North Africa, Russia and the USA that are all sinners like everybody else. They have their criminals, psychopaths, murderers, ordinarians that live by the law their daily lives, intelligent people with a moral backbone and you have low life racists and religious fanatics.

It kind of surprises me when people loose sight of the fact that there is nothing special about Israel. One of my favorite tongue-in-cheek things to say to Israelis when they complain about European bias is: "The problem with many western Christians or post-Christians here is that they don't understand that there is nothing special about Israel or Jews." Love to watch the confusion following.

Talking Prophets: some of them were real crazies better not be listened to. But I found a good Prophet that begs to be listened to. Compared with this one, the OT prophets are all lightweights or midgets ;)
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Re: Israel

Postby Parodite » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:15 pm

HP.. I can only hope your dreams come true.
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Re: Israel

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:57 pm

Ally was a poor choice of words on my part. I meant the US needs a military beachead on the Mediterranean willing to support supply lines into Eurasia.
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Re: Israel

Postby Parodite » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:53 pm

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Ally was a poor choice of words on my part. I meant the US needs a military beachead on the Mediterranean willing to support supply lines into Eurasia.


I like your sarc-a-snark humor :D
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Re: Israel

Postby HAL 10000 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:57 pm

YMix wrote:
HAL 10000 wrote:The bombings in Argentina and the Hezbollah rocket attacks were just a scratch. I agree.


(1) Subtle disagreement cleverly disguised as agreement. Much impressed. Wow.

Iran is geographically very far from Israel, and with the exception of the theocratic government, the average Iranian is not significantly antisemitic. This is why it is difficult for the Iranian government to fully mobilize its resources to annihilate Israel, since it does not have the massive support of the majority who are tired of this government anyway, but this can change when Iran starts donating weapons of mass destruction (or just the technology of such weapons) to Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. So it is clear that the Iranian government would not directly fire a nuclear missile to Israel, but its proxies might unofficially escalate with more powerful technology donated by Iran. Nukes are just one technology, and by 2050, there will be many other technologies the world has not seen yet.


(2) Riiiight. The Iranians are not stupid enough to fire a nuclear missile at Israel, but they are stupid enough to pass nuclear technology to shitty little groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. Because that's what nuclear powers do; they pass their arsenal around.

But if the Iranian government falls and gets replaced by a more national-cultural system (many Iranians feel a cultural nostalgia for their Zoroastrian traditions which did not include antisemitism), then just like Cyrus the Great, Iran can become the best friend of Israel and the Jews as before.


(3) Or maybe Israel is not that important.

The problem is not Iran, and not even Islam, but authoritarianism and the irrationality of people who are not qualified to govern. Irrational people would take irrational risks, hoping that their madness will intimidate others to submission.


(4) Recycled Cold War propaganda.
[Emphasis added by HAL 10000]

(1) Given that in the past you said "Israel is just another shitty Middle Eastern country" (these were your own words, confirming superficiality in painting everyone with the same brush, not European perhaps), I have no reason to be diplomatic or polite to hide any disagreement with you. But seriously, you are always assuming that a Middle Eastern person (from Turkey) like me, is always in disagreement with anything you said, or perhaps your air of superiority and narcissism is such that you think I will always disagree with you. In this case I truly did agree with your statement (1) and I did mean that the rocket attacks of Hamas and Hezbollah, or the Iran-sponsored bombing in Argentina are just a scratch, not only in comparison to how much worse it can be when the Middle East enters a new arms race on steroids when other Muslim countries start to match the Iranian might (and since I know the Turks very well, my money is on the Turks and they will be the true regional superpower, running circles around Iran), but also the fact that Jews have endured a lot more, outnumbered hundreds to one, but ultimately they survived. Compared to history, even the destruction of Israel is something the Jews can easily recover from (and I am not saying this to imply that Jews are superior since they can survive many annihilations, it is just an attribute of the Jews to survive after many humiliations)...

(2) The Iranian government is not the average Iranian's mind. And separately, the Iranian government differs from the Cold War mentality in the sense that a lot of superstition and metaphysical thinking is involved, which neither the Russians nor the NATO countries suffered from. Especially the Revolutionary Guards are very adamant in their belief system. This irrationality would likely make them take much bigger risks than the Cold War adversaries by sharing their technology with others because they always underestimate the rest of the world by thinking that others are spineless and the will run away or surrender when blackmailed. Please remember what Azeri said: he said that when Iran (and other Middle Eastern powers) get nuclear bombs, the European Jewish elite of Israel will abandon Israel by going to other countries and Israel will crumble and disappear without firing a shot. The same thinking of many fundamentalist regimes in the Middle East also shares the same view that the Europeans are also spineless and will surrender when blackmailed. This is an incentive for superstitious regimes to bluff on the basis of this kind of game theory. Remember, mathematically, a theory is consistent if its axioms do not contradict the original assumption (initial data). In this sense, the theory would be correct if only the assumptions were right, but if they gamble on the basis of this theory, then it may escalate in uncertain ways.

But in general,the bottom line is that the Middle East will gradually get far better armed, and it is not a matter of nukes alone, there will be many technologies by 2050, and the ability to manufacture future weapons of mass destruction will no longer require a centralized government that can control everything from top to bottom. ( YOU assumed that in the future only big and very organized and centralized regimes will be able to develop weapons of mass destruction. This is simply not true. )

(3) Again, you are obsessed with your air of superiority and need to belittle others. I never said that Israel should be very important. But even without any importance, Israel can still deserve to be accepted, and most Iranians I met were very nice people, and by the way, many Iranians actually like Israel.

(4) Apparently you are missing something here. Cold War thinking was the balance of power between the Soviet Union and NATO on the basis of the assumption that the rivals will not gamble too much when the risk of total annihilation is significant. In this case, it is not the Cold War but a significantly different paradigm, where some of the players in this power game are metaphysically trained and they can take much bigger risks in exchange for a Pyrrhic victory.
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Re: Israel

Postby HAL 10000 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:06 pm

Parodite wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:This an open secret that Hamas was created (quite openly) by Mossad to weaken Arafat .. Mossad backed a "muslim" Palestinian faction (Hamas) to split & weaken (secular, some even Christian) PLO .. "unintended" consequence was "Hamas" became a nasty adversary to Zionist.


The open secret is that this is first class anti-Semitic drivel. The only way in which "Mossad created Hamas" connects with reality is that Israel was off-guard when Hamas started to root in Gaza where initially engaged in charity and Muslim rights to prayer etc., not taking the possibility that Hamas would start an armed Jihad very seriously until it was too late. A more factual account of what happened can be found here: How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

Same scenario played with "Daesh" .. Zionist, Turkey, Qatar, KSA, America and Europe, to counter (Shia) Iran, they came up with Daesh Idea .. "unintended" consequence was the snake turned around and attacked those feeding them.


Same conspirational nonsense.


Maybe it can be argued that due to the ongoing Israeli occupation the Palestinians got more radicalized, but in reality Hamas is an ally of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Even in Europe some antisemitic circles float the idea that Hamas was created by Mossad, etc.
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Re: Israel

Postby YMix » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:39 pm

HAL 10000 wrote:(1) Given that in the past you said "Israel is just another shitty Middle Eastern country" (these were your own words, confirming superficiality in painting everyone with the same brush, not European perhaps), I have no reason to be diplomatic or polite to hide any disagreement with you. In this case I truly did agree with your statement (1) and I did mean that the rocket attacks of Hamas and Hezbollah, or the Iran-sponsored bombing in Argentina are just a scratch, not only in comparison to how much worse it can be when the Middle East enters a new arms race on steroids when other Muslim countries start to match the Iranian might (and since I know the Turks very well, my money is on the Turks and they will be the true regional superpower, running circles around Iran), but also the fact that Jews have endured a lot more, outnumbered hundreds to one, but ultimately they survived. Compared to history, even the destruction of Israel is something the Jews can easily recover from (and I am not saying this to imply that Jews are superior since they can survive many annihilations, it is just an attribute of the Jews to survive after many humiliations)...


That's good to know.

But seriously, you are always assuming that a Middle Eastern person (from Turkey) like me, is always in disagreement with anything you said, or perhaps your air of superiority and narcissism is such that you think I will always disagree with you.


No, I assume that you, as bearer of the pro-Israeli point of view, are in disagreement with me. Past conversations between us, as far as I remember them, tend to support this point of view. I assume you told us at some point that you're from Turkey, but I frankly don't remember. It must be my narcissism.

(2) The Iranian government is not the average Iranian's mind. And separately, the Iranian government differs from the Cold War mentality in the sense that a lot of superstition and metaphysical thinking is involved, which neither the Russians nor the NATO countries suffered from. Especially the Revolutionary Guards are very adamant in their belief system. This irrationality would likely make them take much bigger risks than the Cold War adversaries by sharing their technology with others because they always underestimate the rest of the world by thinking that others are spineless and the will run away or surrender when blackmailed.


Everyone is adamant in his or her belief system. That doesn't mean much, if anything at all. The Official Spreader of Democracy itself is careful to ruin other countries without exposing its own.

Please remember what Azeri said: he said that when Iran (and other Middle Eastern powers) get nuclear bombs, the European Jewish elite of Israel will abandon Israel by going to other countries and Israel will crumble and disappear without firing a shot. The same thinking of many fundamentalist regimes in the Middle East also shares the same view that the Europeans are also spineless and will surrender when blackmailed. This is an incentive for superstitious regimes to bluff on the basis of this kind of game theory. Remember, mathematically, a theory is consistent if its axioms do not contradict the original assumption (initial data). In this sense, the theory would be correct if only the assumptions were right, but if they gamble on the basis of this theory, then it may escalate in uncertain ways.


Israel counted on the same spinelessness when it developed its own nuclear bombs so maybe you're on to something. Also, if you have to quote Azeri... :roll:

But in general,the bottom line is that the Middle East will gradually get far better armed, and it is not a matter of nukes alone, there will be many technologies by 2050, and the ability to manufacture future weapons of mass destruction will no longer require a centralized government that can control everything from top to bottom. ( YOU assumed that in the future only big and very organized and centralized regimes will be able to develop weapons of mass destruction. This is simply not true. )


No, I assumed we were talking about the Iranian government and how it would pass nukes around like hotcakes. Small groups developing their own weapons won't need the Iranian government. :|

Even The Speng admits that Iran is unlikely to start anything, which makes the idea that Iran's leaders would simply trust Hezbollah and Hamas with nukes just to spite Israel more than a little silly. In other words, the leaders of Iran are acting in a perfectly rational manner when it comes to, well, every country, exceeeeeeept... Israel. That's narcissistic.

(3) Again, you are obsessed with your air of superiority and need to belittle others. I never said that Israel should be very important. But even without any importance, Israel can still deserve to be accepted, and most Iranians I met were very nice people, and by the way, many Iranians actually like Israel.


Never said that Israel should be rejected or destroyed. I did say that it should give the Palestinians a big break so that we can stop talking about Israel.

(4) Apparently you are missing something here. Cold War thinking was the balance of power between the Soviet Union and NATO on the basis of the assumption that the rivals will not gamble too much when the risk of total annihilation is significant. In this case, it is not the Cold War but a significantly different paradigm, where some of the players in this power game are metaphysically trained and they can take much bigger risks in exchange for a Pyrrhic victory.


It was one of the Cold War's tenets, articulated by Kennan, that the leaders of the USSR acted out of historic Russian xenophobia and paranoia. From that sprung the popular (in the USA) view that the Soviets were all crazy zealots who could not be reasoned with and who could only be kept at bay by manly threats of violence. Sounds familiar?
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Re: Israel

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:07 am

.


Just want to say 2 things about HAL10000 above post.


1 - Never said when Iran and other ME nation have nuclear bomb Isaeli will leave Israel.

Israeli will leave Israel when they see no future in Israel (already most children of Israeli elite leaving or have left Israel, to US or Canada), nothing to do with anybody having nuclear bomb .. would you built your future on sand, not knowing whether things same in 50 or 100 yrs ? ? obviously not .. this has Zero to do with Iran or nuclear bomb

Are Pakistani people (or government) more Israel friendly or Iranian people ? ? ? .. well, Paki have 100+ nuclear bomb .. AND ? ? ?


2 - Only 17% of Turkey are "Real Turks", Oghuz Tribe Turks .. the rest are Kurds, Armenian, Greek, Romanian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian etc.

Atta Turks, after fall of Ottoman empire, had to define Turkey's identity .. he said anybody "speaking" Turkish is a Turk, meaning HAL10000 (Jews in Ottoman empire) & Armenians & Kurds & Greeks (in Turkey) & 20 million Iranians (who speak Azari) are by Atta Turk definition Turks .. same as saying all Indians and Bangladeshi "speaking English" are British citizens :lol:

What does it mean ? ?

It means, in reality, Turkey no Turkey you might think

Turkey has an "identity issue" .. that becomes critical if (and when) things turn hot .. Would an ethnic Armenian or Kurd or Romanian or Ukrainian fight for Turkey .. Would you, HAL10000, fight for Turkey ? ?

Answer is clear NO

In WWI (Turkey-Russia war), (Turkish) Armenians did not fight against Russians, they said this point blank to Sultan .. and you know the result.

HAL10000, you bettin on the wrong horse, again :lol:



.
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Re: Israel

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:01 pm

Parodite wrote:.

HP.. I can only hope your dreams come true.

.




Mohammad Javad Zarif
Iran's Minister of Foreign Affairs
Now It’s Israel’s Turn




.

One of the many ironies of history is that non-nuclear-weapon states, like Iran, have actually done far more for the cause of non-proliferation in practice than nuclear-weapon states have done on paper. Iran and other nuclear have-nots have genuinely “walked the walk” in seeking to consolidate the non-proliferation regime. Meanwhile, states actually possessing these destructive weapons have hardly even “talked the talk”, while completely brushing off their disarmament obligations under the non-proliferation treaty (NPT) and customary international law.

That is to say nothing of countries outside the NPT, or Israel, with an undeclared nuclear arsenal and a declared disdain towards non-proliferation, notwithstanding its absurd and alarmist campaign against the Iranian nuclear deal.

Today, in light of the Vienna deal, it is high time that the nuclear “haves” remedied the gap by adopting serious disarmament measures and reinforcing the non-proliferation regime.

It is time for the “haves” to finally come to terms with a crucial reality; we live in a globalised security environment. The cold war era asymmetry between states that possess nuclear weapons and those that don’t is no longer remotely tolerable.

For too long, it has been assumed that the insane concept of mutually assured destruction would sustain stability and non-proliferation. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The prevalence of this deterrence doctrine in international relations has been the primary driving force behind the temptation by some countries to acquire nuclear weapons, and by others to engage in expanding and beefing up the strength of their nuclear arsenals. All this in blatant violation of the disarmament objectives set by the international community.

It is imperative that we change this dangerous and erroneous security paradigm and move toward a better, safer and fairer arrangement. I sincerely believe that the nuclear agreement between my country – a non-nuclear-weapon state – and the P5+1 (which control almost all nuclear warheads on Earth) is symbolically significant enough to kickstart this paradigm shift and mark the beginning of a new era for the non-proliferation regime.

One step in the right direction would be to start negotiations for a weapons elimination treaty, backed by a robust monitoring and compliance-verification mechanism.

This could, in an initial phase, occasion the de-alerting of nuclear arsenals (removing warheads from delivery vehicles to reduce the risk of use) and subsequently engender the progressive disarmament by all countries possessing such WMDs.

It is certainly a feasible goal to start this global project with a robust, universal and really genuine push to establish a WMD-free zone in the Middle East, if the relevant powers finally come to deem it not just a noble cause but a strategic imperative.

Such a new treaty would revive and complement the NPT for nuclear “haves”. It would codify disarmament obligations for nuclear-armed regimes that are not party to the NPT – but that are nonetheless bound – politically, by the international non-proliferation regime and, legally, by preemptory norms of customary international law to disarm.

Iran, in its national capacity and as current chairman of the Non-Aligned Movement, is prepared to work with the international community to achieve these goals, knowing full well that, along the way, it will probably run into many hurdles raised by the sceptics of peace and diplomacy. But we must endeavour to convince and persist, as we did in Vienna.

.



Iran leading Israel to the right direction .. ball now in Israeli corner

Am predicting, within a yr, probably much sooner, BiBi will fall by a "vote of non confidence" .. and .. the new rulers of Israel will be non of the old ones, Ehud Barak or Tzipi Livni type of crowed .. totally new mindset would be needed and for that absolutely new politicians will step forward .. we will see whether Israeli people have maturity enough to force this change .. if it happens, Israel will prosper, if same old crowed and policy, things will have no future, elite will leave.

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Re: Israel

Postby YMix » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:17 pm

Israel Security Establishment Breaks With Bibi on Iran Deal
J.J. Goldberg, July 23, 2015

There’s a deep crack emerging in the veneer of wall-to-wall support offered by Israel’s political leadership to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in his war against the Iran nuclear agreement.

The crack has a name you might recognize: the Israeli security establishment. You know — the folks whose job it is to identify and address threats to Israel’s safety. A small but growing group of high-power ex-commanders has been speaking out in media interviews and op-ed essays in the past few days, saying that Netanyahu has got the Iran issue wrong.

It’s not yet what you’d call an avalanche of dissent. But against the pro-Netanyahu unanimity among the politicians, coalition and opposition alike, the skepticism emerging from the security community stands out in striking relief. As unanimous as the politicians are in backing the prime minister, the generals and spymasters are nearly as unanimous in questioning him. Generals publicly backing Netanyahu can be counted on — well — one finger.

Many of the security insiders say the deal signed in Vienna on July 14 isn’t as bad as Netanyahu claims. Some call it good for Israel. Others say it’s bad, but it’s a done deal and Israel should make the best of it. Either way, they agree that Israel should work with the Obama administration to plot implementation, rather than mobilize Congress against the White House.

All agree that undermining Israel’s alliance with America is a far greater existential threat than anything Iran does.

Who are these critics? They include a former chief of military intelligence, Amos Yadlin , who now heads Israel’s main defense think tank; a former chief of arms technology, Yitzhak Ben-Yisrael , who now chairs both The Israel Space Agency and the science ministry’s research and development council; a former chief of military operations, Israel Ziv ; a near-legendary architect of Israeli military intelligence, Dov Tamari ; a former director of the Shin Bet domestic security service, Ami Ayalon , and a former director of the Mossad intelligence agency, Efraim Halevy . And there are others.

The list would be longer if we included security figures who spoke in favor of the Lausanne framework agreement in April, which was the basis for this deal, but haven’t addressed the new agreement. And we’re not including anyone who retired with a rank below brigadier general. We’re just discussing the architects of Israeli defense.

The roster should also include a onetime chief of military intelligence, Israel Defense Forces chief of staff and prime minister named Ehud Barak. He was Netanyahu’s defense minister from 2009 to 2013 and helped develop his Iran strategy. In a television interview the day the agreement was signed, Barak said he wouldn’t criticize his old boss or tell him what to do. But he did just that.

Barak called the nuclear deal a “bad deal” that legitimizes Iran as a nuclear threshold state. He predicted that Iran would have a nuclear weapon within a decade. But, he said, Israel “can live with whatever happens there. We are the strongest state in the Middle East, militarily, strategically, economically — and diplomatically, if we’re not foolish.”

Again contradicting Netanyahu, Barak said: “The most important thing we need to do right now is restore working relations with the White House. That’s the only place where we can formulate what constitutes a violation, what’s a smoking gun and how to respond.”

In part, that means Israel “cannot position itself as a political player in the American Congress. Individuals can certainly speak to Americans they know personally and explain to them why this is a bad agreement from Israel’s viewpoint. That’s legitimate. But Israel as a state operating within the internal framework of another friendly state — that’s problematic.”

Israel, Barak said, is “not in an apocalyptic situation. We are not in Europe 1938” — an implied jab at Netanyahu’s frequent invocation of the Allies’ appeasement of Hitler at Munich — “and not Palestine 1947,” when newborn Israel faced five Arab armies alone.

That’s the generals’ central theme: Don’t panic. “We need to be calm,” said Yadlin, the former military intelligence chief, in a Ynet online interview .

“The agreement isn’t good, but Israel can deal with it.” Instead of “blowing off steam,” he said, Israel should be talking with the United States to prepare responses to violations.

By contrast, Ben-Yisrael, who has twice won the Israel Prize for contributions to Israel’s weapons technology, told Walla! News that the Vienna agreement is “not bad at all, perhaps even good for Israel.” True, Iran still calls for Israel’s destruction. But, he said, from the nuclear perspective — which is what the negotiations were about — “it prevents a nuclear bomb for 15 years, which is not bad at all.”

Halevy, the former Mossad director, elaborated on Ben-Yisrael’s point in a scathing Ynet op-ed . From the start, Israel “maintained that the Iranian threat is a unique, existential threat.” It wanted the international community to address the threat, and it did. “That was the only goal of the biting sanctions against Iran,” he wrote.

Now, he stated, the government tries “to change the rules of the game and include additional demands from Iran in the agreement, like recognizing Israel and halting support for terror.” By threatening to block an agreement that addresses Israel’s “existential-cardinal” goal because it doesn’t address other, nonexistential issues, Halevy wrote, Netanyahu raises the suspicion that he doesn’t want a deal at all.

It’s impossible to say for certain whether the dozen or so ex-generals and spymasters who have spoken out are representative of the broader security community. But there are hints. Netanyahu has replaced top personnel repeatedly, but each new cohort takes the same stance: opposing precipitate action; denying that Iran represents an existential threat, insisting that Iran’s leadership is rational and responds to negotiation and deterrence.

Last January, the Mossad’s director, Tamir Pardo, told a group of senators that imposing new sanctions on Iran, something Netanyahu favored, would undermine the nuclear talks. Now, recent news reports say, Netanyahu has ordered all personnel to avoid discussing Iran, presumably to silence Pardo and his colleagues. It’s also reported that the military set up a task force to prepare a list of requests from Washington to help Israel cope with the new Iranian reality, but that Netanyahu had forbidden any such discussion, arguing that it effectively condoned the nuclear deal.

Israel’s military has a long history of approaching big issues pragmatically, avoiding ideology and big theories. Over the past six years, this has caused steadily mounting tension between the security services and Netanyahu, who is as ideological a prime minister as Israel has ever seen.

On the Palestinian issue, the military often seems to turn up on one side of Israel’s ideological divide, though not for ideological reasons. On Iran there hasn’t been a side with which the military can line up. Sources close to the Knesset say lawmakers with doubts about current policy are silent, fearing attacks on their patriotism. The uniformed personnel have been shut down. And so, as Netanyahu approaches a fateful showdown in Washington, the old veterans are out there on their own.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Israel

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:25 pm

YMix wrote:
Israel Security Establishment Breaks With Bibi on Iran Deal
J.J. Goldberg, July 23, 2015

There’s a deep crack emerging in the veneer of wall-to-wall support offered by Israel’s political leadership to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in his war against the Iran nuclear agreement.

The crack has a name you might recognize: the Israeli security establishment. You know — the folks whose job it is to identify and address threats to Israel’s safety. A small but growing group of high-power ex-commanders has been speaking out in media interviews and op-ed essays in the past few days, saying that Netanyahu has got the Iran issue wrong.

It’s not yet what you’d call an avalanche of dissent. But against the pro-Netanyahu unanimity among the politicians, coalition and opposition alike, the skepticism emerging from the security community stands out in striking relief. As unanimous as the politicians are in backing the prime minister, the generals and spymasters are nearly as unanimous in questioning him. Generals publicly backing Netanyahu can be counted on — well — one finger.

Many of the security insiders say the deal signed in Vienna on July 14 isn’t as bad as Netanyahu claims. Some call it good for Israel. Others say it’s bad, but it’s a done deal and Israel should make the best of it. Either way, they agree that Israel should work with the Obama administration to plot implementation, rather than mobilize Congress against the White House.

All agree that undermining Israel’s alliance with America is a far greater existential threat than anything Iran does.

Who are these critics? They include a former chief of military intelligence, Amos Yadlin , who now heads Israel’s main defense think tank; a former chief of arms technology, Yitzhak Ben-Yisrael , who now chairs both The Israel Space Agency and the science ministry’s research and development council; a former chief of military operations, Israel Ziv ; a near-legendary architect of Israeli military intelligence, Dov Tamari ; a former director of the Shin Bet domestic security service, Ami Ayalon , and a former director of the Mossad intelligence agency, Efraim Halevy . And there are others.

The list would be longer if we included security figures who spoke in favor of the Lausanne framework agreement in April, which was the basis for this deal, but haven’t addressed the new agreement. And we’re not including anyone who retired with a rank below brigadier general. We’re just discussing the architects of Israeli defense.

The roster should also include a onetime chief of military intelligence, Israel Defense Forces chief of staff and prime minister named Ehud Barak. He was Netanyahu’s defense minister from 2009 to 2013 and helped develop his Iran strategy. In a television interview the day the agreement was signed, Barak said he wouldn’t criticize his old boss or tell him what to do. But he did just that.

Barak called the nuclear deal a “bad deal” that legitimizes Iran as a nuclear threshold state. He predicted that Iran would have a nuclear weapon within a decade. But, he said, Israel “can live with whatever happens there. We are the strongest state in the Middle East, militarily, strategically, economically — and diplomatically, if we’re not foolish.”

Again contradicting Netanyahu, Barak said: “The most important thing we need to do right now is restore working relations with the White House. That’s the only place where we can formulate what constitutes a violation, what’s a smoking gun and how to respond.”

In part, that means Israel “cannot position itself as a political player in the American Congress. Individuals can certainly speak to Americans they know personally and explain to them why this is a bad agreement from Israel’s viewpoint. That’s legitimate. But Israel as a state operating within the internal framework of another friendly state — that’s problematic.”

Israel, Barak said, is “not in an apocalyptic situation. We are not in Europe 1938” — an implied jab at Netanyahu’s frequent invocation of the Allies’ appeasement of Hitler at Munich — “and not Palestine 1947,” when newborn Israel faced five Arab armies alone.

That’s the generals’ central theme: Don’t panic. “We need to be calm,” said Yadlin, the former military intelligence chief, in a Ynet online interview .

“The agreement isn’t good, but Israel can deal with it.” Instead of “blowing off steam,” he said, Israel should be talking with the United States to prepare responses to violations.

By contrast, Ben-Yisrael, who has twice won the Israel Prize for contributions to Israel’s weapons technology, told Walla! News that the Vienna agreement is “not bad at all, perhaps even good for Israel.” True, Iran still calls for Israel’s destruction. But, he said, from the nuclear perspective — which is what the negotiations were about — “it prevents a nuclear bomb for 15 years, which is not bad at all.”

Halevy, the former Mossad director, elaborated on Ben-Yisrael’s point in a scathing Ynet op-ed . From the start, Israel “maintained that the Iranian threat is a unique, existential threat.” It wanted the international community to address the threat, and it did. “That was the only goal of the biting sanctions against Iran,” he wrote.

Now, he stated, the government tries “to change the rules of the game and include additional demands from Iran in the agreement, like recognizing Israel and halting support for terror.” By threatening to block an agreement that addresses Israel’s “existential-cardinal” goal because it doesn’t address other, nonexistential issues, Halevy wrote, Netanyahu raises the suspicion that he doesn’t want a deal at all.

It’s impossible to say for certain whether the dozen or so ex-generals and spymasters who have spoken out are representative of the broader security community. But there are hints. Netanyahu has replaced top personnel repeatedly, but each new cohort takes the same stance: opposing precipitate action; denying that Iran represents an existential threat, insisting that Iran’s leadership is rational and responds to negotiation and deterrence.

Last January, the Mossad’s director, Tamir Pardo, told a group of senators that imposing new sanctions on Iran, something Netanyahu favored, would undermine the nuclear talks. Now, recent news reports say, Netanyahu has ordered all personnel to avoid discussing Iran, presumably to silence Pardo and his colleagues. It’s also reported that the military set up a task force to prepare a list of requests from Washington to help Israel cope with the new Iranian reality, but that Netanyahu had forbidden any such discussion, arguing that it effectively condoned the nuclear deal.

Israel’s military has a long history of approaching big issues pragmatically, avoiding ideology and big theories. Over the past six years, this has caused steadily mounting tension between the security services and Netanyahu, who is as ideological a prime minister as Israel has ever seen.

On the Palestinian issue, the military often seems to turn up on one side of Israel’s ideological divide, though not for ideological reasons. On Iran there hasn’t been a side with which the military can line up. Sources close to the Knesset say lawmakers with doubts about current policy are silent, fearing attacks on their patriotism. The uniformed personnel have been shut down. And so, as Netanyahu approaches a fateful showdown in Washington, the old veterans are out there on their own.



Thanx, YMix

Well,

I think BiBi and this folks talking "Apples" and "Oranges"

BiBi might be sayin Iran will built the nuke, attack Israel, but what he really means, is, Iran becoming an "Ally" not only of America, not Only of Europe but Russia and China and India and Brazil and South Africa & & &, leading to stronger and stronger Iran down the road, making Israel less and less important for the world and distancing of .. all this no good for "vision" Zionist have for Palestine .. soon, those world powers could turn to Israel and demand this and that "or else" .. if those world powers turn to Israel and ask this and that, it would be "dictate and not ask", sanctions comet to mind.

BiBi sayin all this no good .. and .. he is right, no good for "his vision" of things in the future.

On the other side of confrontation with BiBi is not Iran, but world powers.

.
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Re: Israel

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:53 am

.


Turkey Creeping Toward Civil War


.

Facilitating IS' Rise to Power

So far, the Turkish government has consistently denied supporting IS. But in the gray zone between active support and passively looking the other way, Erdogan's government has facilitated IS' rise to power.

Since the summer of 2012, when large numbers of foreign jihad recruits began flooding into Syria from Turkey, Turkish authorities have allowed them to enter and leave through provincial airports in the south. IS recruitment was long tolerated within Turkey, and members of IS were even allowed to use border crossings. It was only later, and little by litte, that Ankara changed its stance.

In return for providing support to the international coalition against IS, the Turkish government has long called for the establishment of a "protective zone" in northern Syria, and now the Americans have agreed. It will extend about 100 kilometers from the border town of Azaz north of Aleppo to Jarabulus, and about 50 kilometers into Syria -- in the areas that IS still controls. The plan to drive the jihadists out of the region, other than with increased air attacks, has remained vague, except that rebels supported by the Americans and the Turks are to advance into the region. But which rebels, and how will they accomplish this?

According to the official goal of the anti-IS coalition, the protective zone is intended to help cut off IS' supply lines and smuggling routes. But the Turkish government apparently has a different goal in mind: to prevent the Kurds from capturing and controlling a cohesive region along its border.

The People's Protection Units, or YPG, as the PKK offshoot in Syria is called, have captured large amounts of territory from IS in recent weeks -- to Ankara's horror and Washington's delight. In mid-June, the Kurds managed to capture the Syrian border town of Tal Abyad, and before long they were only 30 kilometers from the unofficial IS capital of Raqqa.

Erdogan Fears Kurdish State

In doing so, the YPG was able to create a corridor between two of the three previously isolated Kurdish "cantons" in northern Syria. If the militia, together with other rebels, could now drive IS away from the border entirely, all of the "cantons" would be connected. Erdogan was already threatening war after the capture of Tal Abyad. "Under no circumstances will we permit the establishment of a new state in northern Syria." He was referring to a Kurdish state.

Media organizations aligned with the government reported that 18,000 Turkish troops were being mobilized to invade the region that now encompasses the "protective zone." On June 29, the Arab-language newspaper Al-Araby al-Jadeed, published in London, predicted that Erdogan and his prime minister would "push for a Turkish intervention, especially in the region of Jarabulus, to prevent Kurdish forces from advancing any farther -- under the pretense of fighting IS." Now, only one month later, at least part of this prediction has come true. Although Turkish ground troops are not involved yet, it cannot be ruled out that this will happen soon.

If the Turkish army does in fact march into Syria, "we will consider this an invasion and defend ourselves," the leader of the political arm of the YPG, Salih Muslim, warned in a conversation with SPIEGEL. Otherwise, however, he is trying to deescalate the conflict. "We do not want conflict with Turkey. If Ankara wants IS to be driven out, we can do this together with other local groups, Arabs, Turkmen and Kurds. Instead, the AKP has slammed the door shut and is trying to weaken the Kurds, who are fighting IS."

However, there is currently no indication that Turkey will deploy ground troops. Even at a secret meeting of several Syrian rebel commanders in Ankara early last week, there was only talk of more support, but not of an impending invasion. Apparently a direct confrontation with YPG was also not on the table. Still, skepticism prevailed among the participants, including a leader of the Islamist group Ahrar al-Sham. "The Turks have already promised us twice to create a protective zone in the north, but nothing ever came of it," says one of the rebel leaders. "If they help us against (Syrian President) Bashar Assad or IS, okay. Otherwise we will continue fighting on our own."

US Intensifies Cooperation with Turkey

While the European NATO partners, especially the German government, criticize the Turks for their attacks on the PKK, the Americans apparently view the situation differently. For them, it is more important that the Turks, after years of unsuccessful attempts to win them over, are finally willing to help in the fight against IS.

"We look forward to intensifying cooperation with Turkey and all of our partners in the global fight against ISIL," tweeted Brett McGurk, US President Barack Obama's deputy special presidential envoy for the Global Coalition to Counter ISIL, while ignoring the fact that two of these partners are currently declaring war on each other. A possible escalation, McGurk hastened to add, would certainly not be the fault of the United States. "There is no connection between these air strikes against PKK and recent understandings to intensify US-Turkey cooperation against ISIL," he added.

The US State Department declared that while PKK is a terrorist organization, improved cooperation with Turkey would now make it possible to offer the Syrian group YPG improved air support. In doing so, it created a separation between the two closely cooperating organizations, a distinction that apparently only exists in the minds of Washington politicians.

It is a bitter irony of history that Erdogan, as president, is now waging war against the PKK, even though, as prime minister, he did more for the Kurds than any previous Turkish politician. In 2005, he was one of the first to publicly state that there was a "Kurdish problem" that needed to be resolved democratically. Before then, the Turkish state had long refused to even recognize the Kurds' existence. Erdogan granted the country's largest minority greater autonomy and invested billions of euros in the infrastructure in southeastern Turkey. He relaxed a ban on the use of the Kurdish language and permitted Kurdish radio and TV stations. In 2012, Turkish intelligence began peace negotiations with PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan, who has been imprisoned on Imrali Island in the Sea of Marmara since his arrest in 1999.

But it was precisely because of this policy of détente, for which Erdogan was widely praised, that he lost something that had been extremely useful to the Turkish leader in his efforts to retain power: the external enemy, against which Turkish voters could be stirred up for decades, and also disciplined. A climate of détente took hold, and new political movements developed, such as the protest movement against the destruction of Gezi Park in Istanbul and the arrogance of those in power.

Erdogan repeatedly tried to create new enemies with his tirades against foreign conspiracies. He conjured up conspiracies against Turkey by supporters of influential exiled cleric Fethullah Gülen, the "interest rate mafia" and the German airline Lufthansa. Erdogan "controls the hatred or the fear of the lower class," Turkish journalist Ece Temelkuran wrote in the magazine Zenith, describing the autocratic ruler's manipulation of popular resentments. But these new efforts to create a bogeyman were not overly successful. After all, how much outrage could an "interest rate mafia" generate compared to a guerilla organization?

The PKK's Role

The PKK has also contributed to the escalation. Its fighters have reportedly committed a series of attacks in recent days. Last Sunday, PKK militants killed two officers in the town of Lice and injured four other soldiers in an attack on their military vehicle. In Diyarbakir, militants fired on a tearoom in Diyarbakir, killing a police officer and a civilian. Three soldiers were killed in an attack in Sirnak Province on Thursday.

This is only the beginning, threatens Murat Bektas, saying that his organization will plan further attacks if the Turkish government does not stop its strikes. Bektas heads the YDG-H, in Diyarbakir, a youth organization aligned with the PKK. And it is angry young men like him who are promoting the escalation.

Bektas has learned to build barricades and use weapons. "I am armed for this battle," he says. He is considered influential within the movement, because the PKK depends on the young, dedicated members of the YDG-H. Bektas is slim, dressed in jeans and a baggy shirt, sports a three-day beard and has a wrinkled forehead. He has been living in the underground for the last five years and, together with other activists, remains hidden in a concrete building on the outskirts of Diyarbakir. He does not reveal his real name.

The noise of a busy street can be heard through a window, there is a portrait of Öcalan on the wall, and a Kurdish newspaper lies on the table in front of him. The headline on the front page reads: "The AKP Has the Blood of Our Children on its Hands."

'We Are Prepared for the Worst'

Many members and supporters of the PKK never believed in the peace process, says Bektas. Because Öcalan was pushing for peace, he explains, his supporters obeyed his orders to promote peace. But the Turkish military's advances against PKK now show that the government is uninterested in peace with the Kurds, Bektas adds, which is why the group is determined to renew the struggle.

Many citizens in Diyarbakir and other cities in the region have already armed themselves with knives, pistols and machine guns, says Bektas. "We are prepared for the worst."

Moderate forces have fallen behind within both the PKK and the Turkish government, as the agitators have taken over. HDP leader Demirtas has sought to deescalate the conflict in recent days, but his messages hardly make an impression on the radicalized youth anymore.


"Even more blood will be shed," warns Mehmet Öcalan, the brother of the PKK leader, in a telephone conversation with SPIEGEL. "Abdullah is the only one who can stop the catastrophe at this point." But Öcalan is cut off from current events at the prison on Imrali Island. The government has not allowed anyone to visit him since April.
Talks between the Turkish government and the PKK have repeatedly been on the brink of failure in recent years. Nevertheless, as recently as February Öcalan issued a statement calling upon his supporters to finally renounce violence. The rebel leader called it a "historic decision."

Half a year later, his words no longer apply.




This could end in disaster for Turkey.


.
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Re: Israel

Postby YMix » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:31 pm

"We Entered Gaza...With an Insane Amount of Firepower"
Has Amnesty International Lost Its Way? Part 9
Norman Finkelstein

The criminal dimensions of OPE can be gleaned from the Breaking the Silence testimonies (see Table 5).
TABLE 5 How Israel Fought OPE: A Selection of IDF Testimonies

18* When we left after the operation, it was just a barren stretch of desert…. We spoke about it a lot amongst ourselves, the guys from the company, how crazy the amount of damage we did there was. I quote: “Listen man, it’s crazy what went on in there,” “Listen man, we really messed them up,” “genuflect, check it out, there’s nothing at all left…, it’s nothing but desert now, that’s crazy.”
21 I remember that the level of destruction looked insane to me.
22 We entered Gaza…with an insane amount of firepower.
25 It all looked like a science fiction movie…serious levels of destruction everywhere…. [E]verything was really in ruins. And non-stop fire all the time.
30 Before the entrance on foot [to the Gaza Strip], a crazy amount of artillery was fired at the entire area…. Before a tank makes any movement it fires, every time. Those guys were trigger happy, totally crazy.[1]
31 The explosions’ effects cause major amounts of damage, but that doesn’t interest anyone. “Use it, use it, explosives can’t be taken back,” the platoon commander says, “I don’t want to leave explosives with me.”
35 [Y]ou saw crazy wreckage, it was a real trip.
36 Our view was of the center of the Strip. Let’s say it was a real fireworks display. From a distance it looked pretty cool.
37 [Y]ou’re shooting at anything that moves—and also at what isn’t moving, crazy amounts…. [I]t also becomes a bit like a computer game, totally cool and real.
49 It was total destruction in there—the photos on line are child’s play compared to what we saw there in reality…. I never saw anything like it.
70 [T]he unfathomable number of dead on one of the sides, the unimaginable level of destruction, the way militant cells and people were regarded as targets and not as living beings—that’s something that troubles me.
74 [I]t’s destruction on a whole other level.
94 The air force carries out an insane amount of strikes in the Gaza Strip during an operation like “Protective Edge.”
96 The air force carries out an insane amount of strikes in the Gaza Strip during an operation like “Protective Edge.”

* Testimonies are numbered in the collection.
** Bracketed, italicized interpolations by Breaking the Silence.

Although Israel recoils at comparisons between its own conduct and the Nazi holocaust, one of the testimonies (#83) breaks this taboo: “There’s that famous photo that they always show on trips to Poland (organized trips in which Israeli youths visit Holocaust memorial sites) that shows Warsaw before the war and Warsaw after the Second World War. The photo shows the heart of Warsaw and it’s this classy European city, and then they show it at the end of the war. They show the exact same neighborhood, only it has just one house left standing, and the rest is just ruins. That’s what it looked like.” To avoid mind-numbing redundancy, Table 5 omits quoting the succession of combatants who testified that the IDF’s modus operandi during OPE was shoot to kill anything that moves, often on explicit orders, but also because it was “cool.”[2] The last testimony (#111) in the Breaking the Silence collection provides insight into the society that nurtured this Vandal-like army. “You leave the [Gaza Strip] and the most obvious question is, ‘Did you kill anybody?’,” an IDF infantry sergeant rued. “Even if you meet the most leftwing girl in the world, eventually she’ll start thinking, ‘Did you ever kill somebody, or not?’ And what can you do about it? Most people in our society consider that to be a badge of honor. So everyone wants to come out of there with that feeling of satisfaction.”[3]

References

[1] 2014 Gaza Conflict states that “artillery was used in a restrained and calculated fashion, after taking various technical and doctrinal precautions intended to minimize potential civilian harm and optimize the fire’s accuracy” (para. 357).

[2] Curious readers should consult these numbered testimonies: 2, 3, 16, 17, 22, 24, 28, 40, 51, 52, 55, 56, 63, 75, 81.

[3] The UN Board of Inquiry shed more light on the criminal nature of OPE. Israel had in its possession up-to-date GPS coordinates of all the UN shelters it targeted; it used indiscriminate weapons (mortars, artillery) in densely populated areas where these shelters were located, but also precision weapons (precision-guided missiles) leaving no doubt as to intent; the Board did not credit Israel’s sundry alibis and evasions in these murderous attacks, which left scores dead and hundreds wounded.
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Re: Israel

Postby HAL 10000 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:58 am

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:.

Am predicting, within a yr, probably much sooner, BiBi will fall by a "vote of non confidence" .. and .. the new rulers of Israel will be non of the old ones, Ehud Barak or Tzipi Livni type of crowed .. totally new mindset would be needed and for that absolutely new politicians will step forward .. we will see whether Israeli people have maturity enough to force this change .. if it happens, Israel will prosper, if same old crowed and policy, things will have no future, elite will leave.

.


Wow! I am impressed. Previously you were talking about the extinction of Israel, but now you are saying that Israel might prosper.
And why not? Wasn't Cyrus the Great the friend of both the Jews and Israel? After all, after Cyrus saved the Jews from slavery in Iraq, he actually encouraged the Jews to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple. Most Iranian students in American universities actually are either neutral or friendly to Israel. Very few of them want Israel to vanish.
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Re: Israel

Postby HAL 10000 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:00 am



What's the point?
Does that mean that it is good that the Iranian government is executing those who convert to Christianity?
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Re: Israel

Postby HAL 10000 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:15 am

YMix wrote:
HAL 10000 wrote:[color=#BF0000](re missing something here. Cold War thinking was the balance of power between the Soviet Union and NATO on the basis of the assumption that the rivals will not gamble too much when the risk of total annihilation is significant. In this case, it is not the Cold War but a significantly different paradigm, where some of the players in this power game are metaphysically trained and they can take much bigger risks in exchange for a Pyrrhic victory.


It was one of the Cold War's tenets, articulated by Kennan, that the leaders of the USSR acted out of historic Russian xenophobia and paranoia. From that sprung the popular (in the USA) view that the Soviets were all crazy zealots who could not be reasoned with and who could only be kept at bay by manly threats of violence. Sounds familiar?


Actually, you are thinking only in 3 dimensions. The 4th dimension being time, let's visualize the big picture dynamically. Despite first generation anti-Soviet conservatives after World War II, gradually the logic prevailed and it became evident that the Mutually Assured Destruction was a workable method for both adversaries to achieve a balance of power in such a way that there was never any accidental escalation between the US and the Soviet Union, not even during the Viet Nam war, or the 1973 nuclear alert during the Middle Eastern war. Both sides never underestimated the capabilities or the resolve of each other during the Cold War, because the Russians were in the military strategic sense very rational despite their adamant belief in the superiority of their political and economic system. Despite the xenophobia and paranoia of the Soviet leaders (which was sometimes justified), the Soviet leaders still never lost sight of the big picture and refrained from attempting a bold gamble such as a surprise attack by means of one of their secret weapons.

But the xenophobia and paranoia of religious bigots in any government is not the same as the xenophobia and paranoia of atheist Russians during the Cold War This is the detail you have overlooked. Such religious extremists often believe their own lies and imagine that they have a secret advantage that will make them win if they try a bold gamble, and they often also underestimate their adversaries.

As for the Israeli weapons project against the Arab countries after World War II, as you know, the previous governments of Syria, Egypt and Iraq were socialist and nationalist systems, without a significant religious ideology in power at the time, and so the Israeli second strike threats were effective in deterring a costly gamble by its adversaries, even during the 1973 war. But now that far more religious organizations are gaining control of the Arab world, the same static model does not apply, and completely new rules are in force.

But even what I am saying is somewhat anachronistic because in a few decades the weapons of mass destruction will be very decentralized and in order to develop such weapons no centralized government will be necessary. This means that deterrence by threatening a big government will not work very well
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Re: Israel

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:42 am

HAL 10000 wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Parodite wrote:.

Am predicting, within a yr, probably much sooner, BiBi will fall by a "vote of non confidence" .. and .. the new rulers of Israel will be non of the old ones, Ehud Barak or Tzipi Livni type of crowed .. totally new mindset would be needed and for that absolutely new politicians will step forward .. we will see whether Israeli people have maturity enough to force this change .. if it happens, Israel will prosper, if same old crowed and policy, things will have no future, elite will leave.

.


Wow ! I am impressed. Previously you were talking about the extinction of Israel, but now you are saying that Israel might prosper.

And why not? Wasn't Cyrus the Great the friend of both the Jews and Israel? After all, after Cyrus saved the Jews from slavery in Iraq, he actually encouraged the Jews to go back to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple. Most Iranian students in American universities actually are either neutral or friendly to Israel. Very few of them want Israel to vanish.

.



HAL10000, since ATOL time, I am sayin same what I am sayin right now here .. but you intentionally ignoring it

Always said "Present Form of Israel" has no future, and added, Iran can help to change Israel to "last for 1000 yrs" form

Have said this in all foras I posted since many yrs

Notion people from Latvia, Ukraine, Estonia, Poland etc come to Palestine and call the indiginy terrorist and bulldoze Indigini homes and burn 3 month old babies and rain white phosphore on Pali school children will not build and guaranty a home for those chased out of Ukraine and Estonia (in fact validates the reason they were chased out)

I posted a "blue print" of what has to happen with Israel to be accepted (by ME people) and become a member of ME states .. for sure siding with colonial France and Brits to invade Egypt to steal Suez Canal or running with tanks over Shia villages in Lebanon will not lead to lasting Jewish state.

Present Zionist leaders of Israel have no "Moral & Ethnic" credentials, they follow aDolf script who wanted to populate Ukraine with Germans claiming Germans don't have enough "Lebensraum" same claim Zionist sayin.

The whole Zionist rubbish must end and new chapter opened

That is what Azari sayin and sayin

And

Not only Iranian students in America, but all Iranian in Iran have nothing against Jews, in fact some of my European Jewish friends now going as tourist to Iran, coming back tell how wonderful it was.

Natanyahu, Sharon and Barak approach has not worked .. forcing things

Now, it is up to Israeli population to get rid of this crowed and bring new leaders with diametrically new ideas

or

things going to go worst, much worst.

A good sample is world view of Israel and "Iran-nuke agreement" .. everybody is on Iranian side except Israel .. Israel's president said he feels isolated

Once Iranian agreement is approved and done, world will turn to Israel "DICTATE" or else Israel will get "Iran treatment", sanctions .. already started

And

American Jewish population siding with Israel is a "grave mistake" .. American Joe now realizes Israel holding America in a "headlock" .. Patrick Buchanan said so in his many articles I posted here .. that will generate antisemitism, no good for anybody.


In a nutshell, Israel should get rid of the Zionist leaders, change to "Mensch", drop in Tehran, shake hand with Iranians, ask Iran fix things .. as you correctly say, this not the first time Iran fixing things for Mosche .. Iran paid TWICE for the construction of the Jewish temple (first time the Rubbies usurped the money :lol: )

.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel

Postby YMix » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:27 pm

HAL 10000 wrote:But the xenophobia and paranoia of religious bigots in any government is not the same as the xenophobia and paranoia of atheist Russians during the Cold War This is the detail you have overlooked. Such religious extremists often believe their own lies and imagine that they have a secret advantage that will make them win if they try a bold gamble, and they often also underestimate their adversaries.


Almost 40 years have passed since the Iranian revolution. Khomeini is dead. The revolutionary fire has turned into the fires of autumn.

But now that far more religious organizations are gaining control of the Arab world, the same static model does not apply, and completely new rules are in force.


And not just the Arab world. :|

'Religious Zionism will take over Israel,' ex-Shin Bet chief Diskin warns

Yuval Diskin, the former director of the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet), warned on Friday that "religious Zionism is on its way to taking control of the State of Israel." In a lengthy post on his Facebook page, the onetime Shin Bet chief wrote: "The 'two-state solution' is emerging before our eyes amongst us Jews - there is the State of Judea, which is de facto being established alongside the State of Israel." "These are two states in which the differences between them is only growing, and this chasm is becoming irreversible," Diskin wrote. The former Shin Bet head posted the notice in response to the deadly arson attack in the Palestinian village of Duma last week that is alleged to have been committed by Jewish extremists in the West Bank.


Instead of worrying about religious radicals getting their hands on Iran's potential arsenal maybe you should worry about them taking control of Israel's very real one.

But even what I am saying is somewhat anachronistic because in a few decades the weapons of mass destruction will be very decentralized and in order to develop such weapons no centralized government will be necessary. This means that deterrence by threatening a big government will not work very well


The wonders of technology.
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Re: Israel

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:30 pm

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Re: Israel

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:28 pm

YMix wrote:
HAL 10000 wrote:But the xenophobia and paranoia of religious bigots in any government is not the same as the xenophobia and paranoia of atheist Russians during the Cold War This is the detail you have overlooked. Such religious extremists often believe their own lies and imagine that they have a secret advantage that will make them win if they try a bold gamble, and they often also underestimate their adversaries.


Almost 40 years have passed since the Iranian revolution. Khomeini is dead. The revolutionary fire has turned into the fires of autumn.

But now that far more religious organizations are gaining control of the Arab world, the same static model does not apply, and completely new rules are in force.


And not just the Arab world. :|

'Religious Zionism will take over Israel,' ex-Shin Bet chief Diskin warns

Yuval Diskin, the former director of the Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet), warned on Friday that "religious Zionism is on its way to taking control of the State of Israel." In a lengthy post on his Facebook page, the onetime Shin Bet chief wrote: "The 'two-state solution' is emerging before our eyes amongst us Jews - there is the State of Judea, which is de facto being established alongside the State of Israel." "These are two states in which the differences between them is only growing, and this chasm is becoming irreversible," Diskin wrote. The former Shin Bet head posted the notice in response to the deadly arson attack in the Palestinian village of Duma last week that is alleged to have been committed by Jewish extremists in the West Bank.


Instead of worrying about religious radicals getting their hands on Iran's potential arsenal maybe you should worry about them taking control of Israel's very real one.

But even what I am saying is somewhat anachronistic because in a few decades the weapons of mass destruction will be very decentralized and in order to develop such weapons no centralized government will be necessary. This means that deterrence by threatening a big government will not work very well


The wonders of technology.

I dunno. Huge, Jewish, antizionist mobs camped out in the streets of Tel Aviv for weeks.
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