Historical perma-grievances: Armenia and others

monster_gardener · Post by **monster_gardener** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:08 pm

Thank you VERY Much for maintaining the Forum, Typhoon & Ymix.

Am starting this thread per a comment by Ibrahim.

The issues in Armenia and its history are 'universal' though they figure heavily in Middle Eastern History and Politics........

Also in Russia..........

Not sure if it belongs in World or Middle East.........

Please put it where you feel it best belongs.........

Armenia was the Christian nation........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of ... tiquity%29

Jnalum Persicum · Post by **Jnalum Persicum** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:16 am

.

Armenians are wonderful people .. Excellent Vodka AND Cognac

.

Shahram Nazeri is a prominent icon of Persian classical, Kurdish folklore and sufi music.

Shahram Nazeri performs a Kurdish song with Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra in Iran 2006,

.

WOQZfQzXjc0

Arminian Phillhormonic Orchestra and Shahram Nazeri

vzP-49U69rI

.

Jnalum Persicum · Post by **Jnalum Persicum** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:32 am

.

Միանանք Երգով

.

HAL9000 · Post by **HAL9000** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:58 pm

During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sarikamis
EXCERPTS:

The Battle of Sarikamish (Russian: Сражение при Сарыкамыше; Turkish: Sarıkamış Muharebesi or Sarıkamış Savaşı) was an engagement between the Russian and Ottoman empires during World War I. It took place from December 22, 1914 to January 17, 1915 as part of the Caucasus Campaign. The outcome was a Russian victory. The Ottomans employed a strategy which demanded that their troops be highly mobile and to arrive at specified objectives at precise times. This approach was based both on German and Napoleonic tactics.[4] The Ottoman troops, ill-prepared for winter conditions, suffered major casualties at the Allahüekber mountains.[4]
The Ottoman 3rd Army started with 118,000 fighting men. It was reduced to 42,000 effective soldiers in January 1915. There are conflicting figures for Ottoman casualties. Sources do not agree on what sould be included in the final sum. The Turkish official history states 32,000 KIA, 15,000 died of sickness, 7,000 prisoners, 10,000 wounded, for some 50,000 total casualties.[3] The casualties of the conflict escalated beyond the end of the active warfare period as the most immediate problem confronting the 3rd Army became the typhus epidemic.[16] TAF presents a figure of 60,000 casualties throughout the period of the operation. Russians took 7,000 POWs including 200 officers. These prisoners were kept under confinement for the next three years in the small town of Varnavino east of Moscow on the Vetluga River. After the final days of the Czarist empire, these soldiers had a chance to return to the ailing Ottoman Empire.
Russian losses were 16,000 killed in action and 12,000 died of sickness, mostly due to frostbite.[2] TAF sources report around 30,000 fatalities without giving details on the breakdown of this number.
[edit]

Armenians

The relationship between the Armenians and the Ottoman Empire had already started to deteriorate after numerous massacres in eastern Anatolia during the 1890s.[22][23][24] During July 1914 there were negotiations between the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) and Armenian intelligentsia at the Armenian congress at Erzurum. The public conclusion of this congress was "ostensibly conducted to peaceful advance Armenian demands by legitimate means".[25] The CUP regarded the congress as the seedbed for establishing insurrection.[26] Historian Erikson concluded that after this meeting the CUP was convinced to pursue strong Armenian—Russian links with detailed plans to detach the region from the Ottoman Empire.[26]
Martin Gilbert in The First World War states that in search of allies against the Turks, Nicholas II of Russia visited the "Caucasus front" on December 30, and told the head of the Armenian Church that "a most brilliant future awaits the Armenians".[27][28] The head of the Armenian Church along with the president of the Armenian National Council in Tiflis Alexander Khatisyan received the Tsar, who said:
From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of the Russian Army... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, Let your will the peoples remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ received resurrection for a new free life....[29]
—Nicholas II of Russia
As a result of the Tsar's speech, the Ottoman Empire saw their Armenian minority as a potential source of fifth column activity, treachery, and disloyalty, and did nothing to dampen anti-Armenian feeling among its populace.[27] The Ottoman government claimed[citation needed] that it had a legitimate reason as a sovereign state to protect itself from an actual or projected Armenian uprising in favor of Russia or a Western Allied invasion of Ottoman territory. On his return to Constantinople, Enver blamed his failure on the actions of the region's local Armenians.[citation needed]
Repressive measures taken against the empire's Armenian population were an early stage of the Armenian Genocide.[30][31][32][33][34][35][36]

In other words, although the Armenian massacre certainly happened, it appears that the Armenian collaboration with Russia greatly contributed to these events.

It is worth noting that an incredible 25 % of the Ottoman population died during World War I:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_ca ... orld_War_I
EXCERPTS:

If we look without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population - approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million[2]. To be more exact, the 1914 census gave 20,975,345 as the population size, which 15,044,846 was Muslim millet, 187,073 Jew millet, 186,152 do not belong to any and the rest of the size is shared by other millets[3].

As many as 1.5 million Ottoman Armenians were reported to have died between 1915 and 1922 during the Armenian Ottoman struggle.

Another relevant factor in the Armenian massacre by the Ottomans, may have been the Circassian Massacre by the Russians (1864-1870s). Although the Circassians did not share the same language and culture as the Turks, the Ottomans accepted them as Turkic refugees. Thus the fact that Russians had a policy of ethnic cleansing against Muslims became well known to Ottomans long before World War I. Given that most surviving Circassians lived in Turkey, the advancing Russian army allied with the local Armenians, certainly contributed to the Ottoman panic, which probably caused the Ottoman Turks to think that they would also be massacred by the Russians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cle ... ircassians
EXCERPT:

Genocide question

Former Russian President Boris Yeltsin's May 1994 statement admitted that resistance to the tsarist forces was legitimate, but he did not use the term genocide in his statement.[26] In 1997 and 1998, the leaders of Kabardino-Balkaria and of Adygea sent appeals to the Duma to reconsider the situation and to issue the needed apology; to date, there has been no response from Moscow.
Although there is no legal continuity between the Russian Empire and the modern Russian Federation, and the concept of genocide was only adopted in international law in the 20th century, on 5 July 2005 the Circassian Congress, an organization that unites representatives of the various Circassian peoples in the Russian Federation, called on Moscow first to acknowledge and then to apologize for Tsarist policies that Circassians say constituted a genocide. Their appeal pointed out that "according to the official tsarist documents more than 400,000 Circassians were killed, 497,000 were forced to flee abroad to Turkey, and only 80,000 were left alive in their native area."[26] Other sources give much higher numbers, totaling 1 million- 1.5 million deported and/or killed.[27] The movement has since been campaigning for the recognition of the "Circassian Genocide".[28] Nevertheless, the Circassians view the memory of the brutal expulsions and killings by the hand of Russia and the suffering they caused as a central part of the Circassian identity.[citation needed] Circassians have also taken issue with the 2014 Winter Olympics, to be held in Sochi, the Black Sea coast city and the supposed site of the final expulsion of the Circassians.[29]
On May 21, 2011, the Parliament of Georgia passed a resolution, stating that "pre-planned" mass killings of the Circassians by the Imperial Russia, accompanied by "deliberate famine and epidemics", should be recognized as "genocide" and those deported during those events from their homeland, should be recognized as "refugees." Georgia, which has poor relations with Russia, has made outreach efforts to North Caucasian ethnic groups since the 2008 Russo-Georgian War.[30] Following a consultation with academics, human rights activists and Circassian diaspora groups and parliamentary discussions in Tbilisi in 2010 and 2011, Georgia became the first country to use the word "genocide" to refer to the events.[31][30][32][33]
President of the Federal National Cultural Autonomy of Russian Circassians, Alexander Ohtov, says the term genocide is justified in his Kommersant interview:
"Yes, I believe that the concept of genocide against the Circassians was justified. To understand why we are talking about the genocide, you have to look at history. During the Russian-Caucasian war, Russian generals not only expelled the Circassians, but also destroyed them physically. Not only killed them in combat but burned hundreds of villages with civilians. Spared neither children nor women nor the elderly. The entire fields of ripe crops were burned, the orchards cut down, so that the Circassians could not return to their habitations. A destruction of civilian population on a massive scale is it not a genocide?"[34]
However, the head of the Strategic Research on Religion and Policy, Maksim Shevchenko, says that the Tsarist actions must be understood in their 19th-century context, where imperial powers, including the Ottoman Empire which he claims enslaved Circassians, "often behaved brutally to strengthen their borders".[35]

Jnalum Persicum · Post by **Jnalum Persicum** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:31 pm

.

Yes,

pretty much accurate

but

that scenario, though different settings, could again repeat itself, looks like it

Tayyip (Erdogan) not the smartest (got fooled), or, outright foreign agent

Georgia comin back to dady (Putin)

Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia .. next will be Azerbaijan (singing "Bakı ulduzları"

)

.

Ibrahim · Post by **Ibrahim** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:02 am

HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.

I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!" over and over again, but if I may depart from the narrative for a second, your precis of the Turkish involvement in WW1 is completely flawed. Russia, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, was getting smashed by the Hindenburg/Ludendorf tag team on their Western (our Eastern) front, they were in no position to occupy any of the central Ottoman empire/modern Turkey. And while the non-Turkish possessions of the Ottoman empire were carved off by Lawrence and the Arab Revolt, the British attempt to land at Gallipoli was an infamous debacle, and the British-led occupation of postwar Turkey was ejected by force in short order. This demonstrates that your claims about the looming Russian existential threat to Turkey is false. Moreover, the people who actually ended the Ottoman empire were Turks.

This subject has been bashed over the head a dozen times across the various Spengler and post-Spengler fora, but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.

HAL9000 · Post by **HAL9000** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:20 am

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Recently, German and British historians have obtained some surprising information from the German national archives, proving that Germany was not neutral during the Armenian massacre during World War I. On the contrary, in this new long documentary, historians are revealing that according to these German archives, the German government during World War I, was not only helping the organization and execution of the Armenian deportations, but it was actually the German government that encouraged Talaat Pasha and Enver Pasha to crack down on the Armenians so violently. It is revealed that Germany wanted to access the Middle Eastern oil fields controlled by the Ottoman Empire, but the fact that Armenians in were not loyal to the Ottoman Empire, was seen as an obstacle for the German plans to get this oil since they could have helped Russia block the railways that were being built in Anatolia by the Germans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl8sMDZkyXc

This documentary has been divided into several parts by YouTube, but as soon as you view the first part, you will find the remaining parts.You will see how involved the Germans were in the Armenian massacre in the Ottoman Empire, both in instigation, planning and execution: The title of the documentary is "Germany and the Secret Genocide". At the end of the documentary historians are saying that Germany now has an interest in covering up their involvement in this massacre.

----------

Now here is an Armenian film about the Armenian massacre. In this movie, it is shown that although Ottomans were in charge of the crackdown on Armenians, many of the final executions were actually done by the Kurds in the Syrian desert. The Ottoman government needed more manpower to complete the deportations and killings, and the Kurds were rewarded by giving them the Armenian villages. Right now, most of the former Armenian villages in the South-East of Turkey are inhabited by Kurds. This is an Armenian film made by Armenians for the Armenians, so we cannot say that this is a Turkish propaganda movie made to deflect criticism. Thus if modern Turkey is to be blamed, then the Kurds and Germans also deserve to be mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuWX9j-Nh-g

Once again YouTube divided the film into 14 parts, the first part 1 of the film starts with the assassination of Talaat Pasha in Berlin after World War I, but in part 5 there is a scene where Kurds are shown to do mass killings of Armenians in the Syrian desert. Once you see the first part, you will find the rest.

The film is in French, but even if you don't speak French, it is very clear from context.

HAL9000 · Post by **HAL9000** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:36 am

Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.
I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!" over and over again, but if I may depart from the narrative for a second, your precis of the Turkish involvement in WW1 is completely flawed. Russia, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, was getting smashed by the Hindenburg/Ludendorf tag team on their Western (our Eastern) front, they were in no position to occupy any of the central Ottoman empire/modern Turkey. And while the non-Turkish possessions of the Ottoman empire were carved off by Lawrence and the Arab Revolt, the British attempt to land at Gallipoli was an infamous debacle, and the British-led occupation of postwar Turkey was ejected by force in short order. This demonstrates that your claims about the looming Russian existential threat to Turkey is false. Moreover, the people who actually ended the Ottoman empire were Turks.

This subject has been bashed over the head a dozen times across the various Spengler and post-Spengler fora, but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.

I did not know that Monstern Gardener was anti-Islam, but in any case, it is clear that I am not. My original threads in this forum were about the ethnic cleansing of the 600,000 Azeri Turks by the Armenians 20 years ago. Stop being paranoid. Paranoid ones are the ones who are much more intolerant of others, and you seem to fit that description. My point , as you will see below in the next message, is that newly discovered mass graves also indicate that in Anatolia there are a lot of Turkish villages massacred by Armenians (my next message later.) And the Armenian massacre was in fact a German idea. As revealed in this documentary above, Germany manipulated Talaat Pasha (who did not even finish high school).

As I said, after the Sarikamis Battle (above message) that reinforced the well-founded fear that Russians were likely to succeed in their goal to bring in Ukrainian and Armenian groups to repopulate Turkey, the Ottomans were sufficiently motivated to crack down.

Given that Germany lost World War I, without the Bolshevik revolution, after Turkey also had to surrender, Russia would have helped Armenians exterminate the Turks, and one of the Russian plans was to bring in Ukrainians to repopulate Turkey. This was my whole point. Already 25 % of the Ottoman population was lost in WW I. You are so blinded by your motivation to attack me even when I am supporting Turkey that you are losing coherence, something is definitely wrong with you.[/u] The Russian army was already gaining ground against Enver Pasha in Anatolia, and this encouraged Armenian gangs to exterminate many Turkish villages.(See my next message below.) You did not even read the Sarikamish Battle article.

In any case, my point in the above message was to document the original Armenian collaboration with Russia before the Ottoman/German crackdown on Armenians, explaining the circumstances that led to that crackdown. Even if your idea that without the Bolshevik Revolution Ottomans would have survived the Russian attacks were true (this time you were wrong about this), this was not my point: my point was the perception of the Ottomans that Armenians were working with the Russians at a time the Sarikamish Battle was lost and Enver Pasha barely survived that battle. This was a turning point that forced Ottomans to follow the German advice and take desperate measures against Armenians.

Again, I repeat, without the Bolshevik Revolution, Russia would have allowed Armenians to exterminate the eastern part of Turkey.

HAL9000 · Post by **HAL9000** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:17 am

This video is in Turkish. In this video it is shown that in Anatolia the Armenian gangs exterminated many Turkish villages. In this video you see the mass graves where Turkish civilians were buried after being killed by Armenian gangs encouraged by Russians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfI34a8ox80

In the following video (in Turkish, Azeri dialect) they discuss the Soviet policy of ethnic cleansing of Azeri Turks in favor of Armenians after WW I. At that time the current borders of Armenia were being established, but the Soviet/Russian plan was to add more Armenians to that border region to make sure that Turkey and Azerbaijan would not have a common border. Apparently hundreds of thousands of Azeris were forced to move by Soviets. At the end of the video the recent ethnic cleansing done by Armenians is also mentioned, but the main emphasis is the Soviet policy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRV6Kw8_ ... re=related

Ibrahim · Post by **Ibrahim** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:33 am

HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.
I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!" over and over again, but if I may depart from the narrative for a second, your precis of the Turkish involvement in WW1 is completely flawed. Russia, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, was getting smashed by the Hindenburg/Ludendorf tag team on their Western (our Eastern) front, they were in no position to occupy any of the central Ottoman empire/modern Turkey. And while the non-Turkish possessions of the Ottoman empire were carved off by Lawrence and the Arab Revolt, the British attempt to land at Gallipoli was an infamous debacle, and the British-led occupation of postwar Turkey was ejected by force in short order. This demonstrates that your claims about the looming Russian existential threat to Turkey is false. Moreover, the people who actually ended the Ottoman empire were Turks.

This subject has been bashed over the head a dozen times across the various Spengler and post-Spengler fora, but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.
I did not know that Monstern Gardener was anti-Islam, but in any case, it is clear that I am not. My original threads in this forum were about the ethnic cleansing of the 600,000 Azeri Turks by the Armenians 20 years ago. Stop being paranoid.

You didn't start this thread, did you? So that comment wouldn't apply to you, would it Stop being paranoid.

As I said, after the Sarikamis Battle (above message) that reinforced the well-founded fear that Russians were likely to succeed in their goal to bring in Ukrainian and Armenian groups to repopulate Turkey, the Ottomans were sufficiently motivated to crack down.

No, this is a frankly stupid idea. It's nice to win a battle, but to repopulate Turkey with Slavs would require the greatest ethnic cleansing in history, and some

Given that Germany lost World War I, without the Bolshevik revolution,

You don't seem to appreciate or even know the sequence of events of the First World War. The Germans were destroying entire Russian armies en masse. Russia, without the revolution, would have been in full defense and rehabilitation mode for some time. As it happens they fought a destructive civil war instead.

after Turkey also had to surrender, Russia would have helped Armenians exterminate the Turks, and one of the Russian plans was to bring in Ukrainians to repopulate Turkey.

Again, this is ridiculous and impossible. At best the Armenians would have helped Russia nibble away at frontier territories, as they had been doing for two centuries at this point. But to talk about "exterminating" the entire Turkish population, this is frankly laughable.

This was my whole point. Already 25 % of the Ottoman population was lost in WW I.

Arab subjects being handed over to French and British colonial rule isn't exactly the same type of population loss as depopulating Anatolia and re-filling it with Ukrainians.

You are so blinded by your motivation to attack me even when I am supporting Turkey that you are losing coherence

It doesn't have anything to do with you. Your historical analysis is unrealistic. You are making claims are are not reasonable. That's not a personal attack, and so far all the personal attacks have come from you, directed at me.

In any case, my point in the above message was to document the original Armenian collaboration with Russia before the Ottoman/German crackdown on Armenians,

And collaborate they may have. That does not make it reasonable to talk about the Russian extermination of the Turkish population as any kind of plausible scenario

Again, I repeat, without the Bolshevik Revolution, Russia would have allowed Armenians to exterminate the eastern part of Turkey.

Repeat it all you want, it is ridiculous.

HAL9000 · Post by **HAL9000** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:43 am

Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.
I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!" over and over again, but if I may depart from the narrative for a second, your precis of the Turkish involvement in WW1 is completely flawed. Russia, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, was getting smashed by the Hindenburg/Ludendorf tag team on their Western (our Eastern) front, they were in no position to occupy any of the central Ottoman empire/modern Turkey. And while the non-Turkish possessions of the Ottoman empire were carved off by Lawrence and the Arab Revolt, the British attempt to land at Gallipoli was an infamous debacle, and the British-led occupation of postwar Turkey was ejected by force in short order. This demonstrates that your claims about the looming Russian existential threat to Turkey is false. Moreover, the people who actually ended the Ottoman empire were Turks.

This subject has been bashed over the head a dozen times across the various Spengler and post-Spengler fora, but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.
I did not know that Monstern Gardener was anti-Islam, but in any case, it is clear that I am not. My original threads in this forum were about the ethnic cleansing of the 600,000 Azeri Turks by the Armenians 20 years ago. Stop being paranoid.
You didn't start this thread, did you? So that comment wouldn't apply to you, would it Stop being paranoid.

As I said, after the Sarikamis Battle (above message) that reinforced the well-founded fear that Russians were likely to succeed in their goal to bring in Ukrainian and Armenian groups to repopulate Turkey, the Ottomans were sufficiently motivated to crack down.
No, this is a frankly stupid idea. It's nice to win a battle, but to repopulate Turkey with Slavs would require the greatest ethnic cleansing in history, and some

Given that Germany lost World War I, without the Bolshevik revolution,
You don't seem to appreciate or even know the sequence of events of the First World War. The Germans were destroying entire Russian armies en masse. Russia, without the revolution, would have been in full defense and rehabilitation mode for some time. As it happens they fought a destructive civil war instead.

after Turkey also had to surrender, Russia would have helped Armenians exterminate the Turks, and one of the Russian plans was to bring in Ukrainians to repopulate Turkey.
Again, this is ridiculous and impossible. At best the Armenians would have helped Russia nibble away at frontier territories, as they had been doing for two centuries at this point. But to talk about "exterminating" the entire Turkish population, this is frankly laughable.

This was my whole point. Already 25 % of the Ottoman population was lost in WW I.
Arab subjects being handed over to French and British colonial rule isn't exactly the same type of population loss as depopulating Anatolia and re-filling it with Ukrainians.

You are so blinded by your motivation to attack me even when I am supporting Turkey that you are losing coherence
It doesn't have anything to do with you. Your historical analysis is unrealistic. You are making claims are are not reasonable. That's not a personal attack, and so far all the personal attacks have come from you, directed at me.

In any case, my point in the above message was to document the original Armenian collaboration with Russia before the Ottoman/German crackdown on Armenians,

And collaborate they may have. That does not make it reasonable to talk about the Russian extermination of the Turkish population as any kind of plausible scenario

Again, I repeat, without the Bolshevik Revolution, Russia would have allowed Armenians to exterminate the eastern part of Turkey.
Repeat it all you want, it is ridiculous.

Despite the German successes in the West, Russia certainly gained ground against Enver Pasha who was not prepared for war in the mountains over there. Apparently you did not see how many soldiers Enver Pasha lost in the Sarikamish Battle. Had the Bolshevik Revolution not disrupted the Russian Army, then the Eastern part of Turkey would have been ethnically cleansed.

Given how exactly Russians ethnically cleansed 1.5 million Circassians, without the Bolshevik Revolution, they would have easily ethnically cleansed some 5 million Turks from the Eastern part of Turkey and they would have given it to Armenians and Ukrainians (it was their original plan in the 19th century to bring Ukrainians to Anatolia). I never said that Russia wanted all of Anatolia, just a big chunk of it. And note that this would have sufficiently broken the back of Turkey, and it could have allowed the Greek army to destroy Ankara during the War of Independence if Russia were most successful. And Greeks were bayoneting civilians en masse. (They also started with Jewish families in Izmir when they saw that Jews were still supporting Turks even after the Ottomans surrendered.)

Remember, the majority of Circassians were ethnically cleansed by the Russians, not a small percentage.

Jnalum Persicum · Post by **Jnalum Persicum** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:00 am

.

Relaaax Ibrahim , Relaaax

Happened to us too

We saved, harbored, fed and took care of Hebrew tribe for 2600 years and now they siding with
"European Zionist" to bomb Iran .. nice reward

You too made the same mistake giving refuge to those Iberian Jews running away from Christians doing those awful things to them .. now a Turk (of Jewish faith) attacking Turkey, siding with Armenia, and @ the same time, siding with that Baku Mafia against Armenia

well

Was a mistake

.

monster_gardener · Post by **monster_gardener** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:54 pm

HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sarikamis
EXCERPTS:
The Battle of Sarikamish (Russian: Сражение при Сарыкамыше; Turkish: Sarıkamış Muharebesi or Sarıkamış Savaşı) was an engagement between the Russian and Ottoman empires during World War I. It took place from December 22, 1914 to January 17, 1915 as part of the Caucasus Campaign. The outcome was a Russian victory. The Ottomans employed a strategy which demanded that their troops be highly mobile and to arrive at specified objectives at precise times. This approach was based both on German and Napoleonic tactics.[4] The Ottoman troops, ill-prepared for winter conditions, suffered major casualties at the Allahüekber mountains.[4]
The Ottoman 3rd Army started with 118,000 fighting men. It was reduced to 42,000 effective soldiers in January 1915. There are conflicting figures for Ottoman casualties. Sources do not agree on what sould be included in the final sum. The Turkish official history states 32,000 KIA, 15,000 died of sickness, 7,000 prisoners, 10,000 wounded, for some 50,000 total casualties.[3] The casualties of the conflict escalated beyond the end of the active warfare period as the most immediate problem confronting the 3rd Army became the typhus epidemic.[16] TAF presents a figure of 60,000 casualties throughout the period of the operation. Russians took 7,000 POWs including 200 officers. These prisoners were kept under confinement for the next three years in the small town of Varnavino east of Moscow on the Vetluga River. After the final days of the Czarist empire, these soldiers had a chance to return to the ailing Ottoman Empire.
Russian losses were 16,000 killed in action and 12,000 died of sickness, mostly due to frostbite.[2] TAF sources report around 30,000 fatalities without giving details on the breakdown of this number.
[edit]

Armenians

The relationship between the Armenians and the Ottoman Empire had already started to deteriorate after numerous massacres in eastern Anatolia during the 1890s.[22][23][24] During July 1914 there were negotiations between the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP) and Armenian intelligentsia at the Armenian congress at Erzurum. The public conclusion of this congress was "ostensibly conducted to peaceful advance Armenian demands by legitimate means".[25] The CUP regarded the congress as the seedbed for establishing insurrection.[26] Historian Erikson concluded that after this meeting the CUP was convinced to pursue strong Armenian—Russian links with detailed plans to detach the region from the Ottoman Empire.[26]
Martin Gilbert in The First World War states that in search of allies against the Turks, Nicholas II of Russia visited the "Caucasus front" on December 30, and told the head of the Armenian Church that "a most brilliant future awaits the Armenians".[27][28] The head of the Armenian Church along with the president of the Armenian National Council in Tiflis Alexander Khatisyan received the Tsar, who said:
From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of the Russian Army... Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the Bosporus, Let your will the peoples remaining under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey who have suffered for the faith of Christ received resurrection for a new free life....[29]
—Nicholas II of Russia
As a result of the Tsar's speech, the Ottoman Empire saw their Armenian minority as a potential source of fifth column activity, treachery, and disloyalty, and did nothing to dampen anti-Armenian feeling among its populace.[27] The Ottoman government claimed[citation needed] that it had a legitimate reason as a sovereign state to protect itself from an actual or projected Armenian uprising in favor of Russia or a Western Allied invasion of Ottoman territory. On his return to Constantinople, Enver blamed his failure on the actions of the region's local Armenians.[citation needed]
Repressive measures taken against the empire's Armenian population were an early stage of the Armenian Genocide.[30][31][32][33][34][35][36]

In other words, although the Armenian massacre certainly happened, it appears that the Armenian collaboration with Russia greatly contributed to these events.

It is worth noting that an incredible 25 % of the Ottoman population died during World War I:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_ca ... orld_War_I
EXCERPTS:
If we look without breakdowns, the total Ottoman losses run almost as high as 25% of the population - approximately 5 million out of population of 21 million[2]. To be more exact, the 1914 census gave 20,975,345 as the population size, which 15,044,846 was Muslim millet, 187,073 Jew millet, 186,152 do not belong to any and the rest of the size is shared by other millets[3].

As many as 1.5 million Ottoman Armenians were reported to have died between 1915 and 1922 during the Armenian Ottoman struggle.

Another relevant factor in the Armenian massacre by the Ottomans, may have been the Circassian Massacre by the Russians (1864-1870s). Although the Circassians did not share the same language and culture as the Turks, the Ottomans accepted them as Turkic refugees. Thus the fact that Russians had a policy of ethnic cleansing against Muslims became well known to Ottomans long before World War I. Given that most surviving Circassians lived in Turkey, the advancing Russian army allied with the local Armenians, certainly contributed to the Ottoman panic, which probably caused the Ottoman Turks to think that they would also be massacred by the Russians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cle ... ircassians
EXCERPT:
Genocide question

Former Russian President Boris Yeltsin's May 1994 statement admitted that resistance to the tsarist forces was legitimate, but he did not use the term genocide in his statement.[26] In 1997 and 1998, the leaders of Kabardino-Balkaria and of Adygea sent appeals to the Duma to reconsider the situation and to issue the needed apology; to date, there has been no response from Moscow.
Although there is no legal continuity between the Russian Empire and the modern Russian Federation, and the concept of genocide was only adopted in international law in the 20th century, on 5 July 2005 the Circassian Congress, an organization that unites representatives of the various Circassian peoples in the Russian Federation, called on Moscow first to acknowledge and then to apologize for Tsarist policies that Circassians say constituted a genocide. Their appeal pointed out that "according to the official tsarist documents more than 400,000 Circassians were killed, 497,000 were forced to flee abroad to Turkey, and only 80,000 were left alive in their native area."[26] Other sources give much higher numbers, totaling 1 million- 1.5 million deported and/or killed.[27] The movement has since been campaigning for the recognition of the "Circassian Genocide".[28] Nevertheless, the Circassians view the memory of the brutal expulsions and killings by the hand of Russia and the suffering they caused as a central part of the Circassian identity.[citation needed] Circassians have also taken issue with the 2014 Winter Olympics, to be held in Sochi, the Black Sea coast city and the supposed site of the final expulsion of the Circassians.[29]
On May 21, 2011, the Parliament of Georgia passed a resolution, stating that "pre-planned" mass killings of the Circassians by the Imperial Russia, accompanied by "deliberate famine and epidemics", should be recognized as "genocide" and those deported during those events from their homeland, should be recognized as "refugees." Georgia, which has poor relations with Russia, has made outreach efforts to North Caucasian ethnic groups since the 2008 Russo-Georgian War.[30] Following a consultation with academics, human rights activists and Circassian diaspora groups and parliamentary discussions in Tbilisi in 2010 and 2011, Georgia became the first country to use the word "genocide" to refer to the events.[31][30][32][33]
President of the Federal National Cultural Autonomy of Russian Circassians, Alexander Ohtov, says the term genocide is justified in his Kommersant interview:
"Yes, I believe that the concept of genocide against the Circassians was justified. To understand why we are talking about the genocide, you have to look at history. During the Russian-Caucasian war, Russian generals not only expelled the Circassians, but also destroyed them physically. Not only killed them in combat but burned hundreds of villages with civilians. Spared neither children nor women nor the elderly. The entire fields of ripe crops were burned, the orchards cut down, so that the Circassians could not return to their habitations. A destruction of civilian population on a massive scale is it not a genocide?"[34]
However, the head of the Strategic Research on Religion and Policy, Maksim Shevchenko, says that the Tsarist actions must be understood in their 19th-century context, where imperial powers, including the Ottoman Empire which he claims enslaved Circassians, "often behaved brutally to strengthen their borders".[35]

Thank you VERY Much for your post, HAL9000.

Thanks for teaching me something.........

This is an aspect of that area that I have not studied...........

So many Depraved Killer Ape Humans........ So many Massacres....

ArMeanians

as well as Turk Jerks

.......

So many places that we don't play well with each other........

Need to Get Out into Space and Away from Each Other..........

Or a lot of us are going to die.......

Ibrahim · Post by **Ibrahim** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:00 pm

HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.
I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!" over and over again, but if I may depart from the narrative for a second, your precis of the Turkish involvement in WW1 is completely flawed. Russia, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, was getting smashed by the Hindenburg/Ludendorf tag team on their Western (our Eastern) front, they were in no position to occupy any of the central Ottoman empire/modern Turkey. And while the non-Turkish possessions of the Ottoman empire were carved off by Lawrence and the Arab Revolt, the British attempt to land at Gallipoli was an infamous debacle, and the British-led occupation of postwar Turkey was ejected by force in short order. This demonstrates that your claims about the looming Russian existential threat to Turkey is false. Moreover, the people who actually ended the Ottoman empire were Turks.

This subject has been bashed over the head a dozen times across the various Spengler and post-Spengler fora, but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.
I did not know that Monstern Gardener was anti-Islam, but in any case, it is clear that I am not. My original threads in this forum were about the ethnic cleansing of the 600,000 Azeri Turks by the Armenians 20 years ago. Stop being paranoid.
You didn't start this thread, did you? So that comment wouldn't apply to you, would it Stop being paranoid.

As I said, after the Sarikamis Battle (above message) that reinforced the well-founded fear that Russians were likely to succeed in their goal to bring in Ukrainian and Armenian groups to repopulate Turkey, the Ottomans were sufficiently motivated to crack down.
No, this is a frankly stupid idea. It's nice to win a battle, but to repopulate Turkey with Slavs would require the greatest ethnic cleansing in history, and some

Given that Germany lost World War I, without the Bolshevik revolution,
You don't seem to appreciate or even know the sequence of events of the First World War. The Germans were destroying entire Russian armies en masse. Russia, without the revolution, would have been in full defense and rehabilitation mode for some time. As it happens they fought a destructive civil war instead.

after Turkey also had to surrender, Russia would have helped Armenians exterminate the Turks, and one of the Russian plans was to bring in Ukrainians to repopulate Turkey.
Again, this is ridiculous and impossible. At best the Armenians would have helped Russia nibble away at frontier territories, as they had been doing for two centuries at this point. But to talk about "exterminating" the entire Turkish population, this is frankly laughable.

This was my whole point. Already 25 % of the Ottoman population was lost in WW I.
Arab subjects being handed over to French and British colonial rule isn't exactly the same type of population loss as depopulating Anatolia and re-filling it with Ukrainians.

You are so blinded by your motivation to attack me even when I am supporting Turkey that you are losing coherence
It doesn't have anything to do with you. Your historical analysis is unrealistic. You are making claims are are not reasonable. That's not a personal attack, and so far all the personal attacks have come from you, directed at me.

In any case, my point in the above message was to document the original Armenian collaboration with Russia before the Ottoman/German crackdown on Armenians,

And collaborate they may have. That does not make it reasonable to talk about the Russian extermination of the Turkish population as any kind of plausible scenario

Again, I repeat, without the Bolshevik Revolution, Russia would have allowed Armenians to exterminate the eastern part of Turkey.
Repeat it all you want, it is ridiculous.

Despite the German successes in the West, Russia certainly gained ground against Enver Pasha who was not prepared for war in the mountains over there. Apparently you did not see how many soldiers Enver Pasha lost in the Sarikamish Battle. Had the Bolshevik Revolution not disrupted the Russian Army, then the Eastern part of Turkey would have been ethnically cleansed.

Given how exactly Russians ethnically cleansed 1.5 million Circassians, without the Bolshevik Revolution, they would have easily ethnically cleansed some 5 million Turks from the Eastern part of Turkey and they would have given it to Armenians and Ukrainians (it was their original plan in the 19th century to bring Ukrainians to Anatolia). I never said that Russia wanted all of Anatolia, just a big chunk of it. And note that this would have sufficiently broken the back of Turkey, and it could have allowed the Greek army to destroy Ankara during the War of Independence if Russia were most successful. And Greeks were bayoneting civilians en masse. (They also started with Jewish families in Izmir when they saw that Jews were still supporting Turks even after the Ottomans surrendered.)

Remember, the majority of Circassians were ethnically cleansed by the Russians, not a small percentage.

Riiiiiiight. 1.5 million, 5 million. No difference there, right? The allies couldn't occupy Turkey after the war, but Russia could instigate some kind of holocaust during the war while also fighting Germany. Easy.

monster_gardener · Post by **monster_gardener** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:30 pm

Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.
I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!" over and over again, but if I may depart from the narrative for a second, your precis of the Turkish involvement in WW1 is completely flawed. Russia, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, was getting smashed by the Hindenburg/Ludendorf tag team on their Western (our Eastern) front, they were in no position to occupy any of the central Ottoman empire/modern Turkey. And while the non-Turkish possessions of the Ottoman empire were carved off by Lawrence and the Arab Revolt, the British attempt to land at Gallipoli was an infamous debacle, and the British-led occupation of postwar Turkey was ejected by force in short order. This demonstrates that your claims about the looming Russian existential threat to Turkey is false. Moreover, the people who actually ended the Ottoman empire were Turks.

This subject has been bashed over the head a dozen times across the various Spengler and post-Spengler fora, but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.

Thank You very much for your post, Ibrahim.

I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!"

Thread was created at the suggestion of one of the most near Monomaniacal posters on this forum who sees racism everywhere focusing where he thinks he sees it like the coherent

light of a laser beam, Who almost always seeks to dis Uz/America at every opportunity, Who Lies, Likes to pontificate instead of linking and IMVHO seems not willing to give an open mind to people friendly to Turkey like HAL9000.

Who could that be?

*

but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.

Enver and 2 of the Muslim Killer Klowns who did the Armenian Holocaust were condemned in absentia but the Russians and the Armenians had to catch and kill them.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Pash ... 2C_1921-22

AFAIK the punishment never got down to the lower level Turk Jerks and Bully Boy Kurds who had their evil way

with the Armenians.....

Various Ottoman politicians, generals, and intellectuals were transferred to Malta, where they were held for some three years while searches were made of archives in Constantinople, London, Paris and Washington to investigate their actions.[79] However, the Inter-allied tribunal attempt demanded by the Treaty of Sèvres never solidified and the detainees were eventually returned to Turkey in exchange for British citizens held by Kemalist Turkey.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_holocaust#International_trials

Unlike what happened to German prison camp guards and what you have advocated for Uz soldiers who sweep the floors of drone hangars.....

So Nope: Can't just Push it off on Pasha

Was not Properly Punished by either your or my standards....

Turkish Pot

smokes

quite as black as Western Kettle.......

*Oh! Right! I think I am replying to him.........

monster_gardener · Post by **monster_gardener** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:54 pm

HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:During World War I, Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire and successfully invaded the north-eastern part of Anatolia. One of the most important defeats was the Battle of Sarikamish, where Enver Pasha's Ottoman army froze to death in the mountains. But right around that time, the Armenians in the Eastern part of Turkey also collaborated with Russia, and this led to a panic in the Ottoman Empire, contributing to the massacre of Armenians. To be more exact, it was the Bolshevik Revolution that saved the Ottoman Empire from total annihilation. Although Russia was victorious, the sudden Bolshevik Revolution forced the Russian army to retreat, abandoning their Armenian allies.
I know I'm off topic here, since the only point if this thread, started by one of the most incoherent and virulently anti-Muslim posters on the forum, is to shriek "Armenian genocide!" over and over again, but if I may depart from the narrative for a second, your precis of the Turkish involvement in WW1 is completely flawed. Russia, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, was getting smashed by the Hindenburg/Ludendorf tag team on their Western (our Eastern) front, they were in no position to occupy any of the central Ottoman empire/modern Turkey. And while the non-Turkish possessions of the Ottoman empire were carved off by Lawrence and the Arab Revolt, the British attempt to land at Gallipoli was an infamous debacle, and the British-led occupation of postwar Turkey was ejected by force in short order. This demonstrates that your claims about the looming Russian existential threat to Turkey is false. Moreover, the people who actually ended the Ottoman empire were Turks.

This subject has been bashed over the head a dozen times across the various Spengler and post-Spengler fora, but the persecution of Armenians was largely Enver Pasha's project, and he was labeled a war criminal for in in Turkey and beyond.
I did not know that Monstern Gardener was anti-Islam, but in any case, it is clear that I am not. My original threads in this forum were about the ethnic cleansing of the 600,000 Azeri Turks by the Armenians 20 years ago. Stop being paranoid. Paranoid ones are the ones who are much more intolerant of others, and you seem to fit that description. My point , as you will see below in the next message, is that newly discovered mass graves also indicate that in Anatolia there are a lot of Turkish villages massacred by Armenians (my next message later.) And the Armenian massacre was in fact a German idea. As revealed in this documentary above, Germany manipulated Talaat Pasha (who did not even finish high school).

As I said, after the Sarikamis Battle (above message) that reinforced the well-founded fear that Russians were likely to succeed in their goal to bring in Ukrainian and Armenian groups to repopulate Turkey, the Ottomans were sufficiently motivated to crack down.

Given that Germany lost World War I, without the Bolshevik revolution, after Turkey also had to surrender, Russia would have helped Armenians exterminate the Turks, and one of the Russian plans was to bring in Ukrainians to repopulate Turkey. This was my whole point. Already 25 % of the Ottoman population was lost in WW I. You are so blinded by your motivation to attack me even when I am supporting Turkey that you are losing coherence, something is definitely wrong with you.[/u] The Russian army was already gaining ground against Enver Pasha in Anatolia, and this encouraged Armenian gangs to exterminate many Turkish villages.(See my next message below.) You did not even read the Sarikamish Battle article.

In any case, my point in the above message was to document the original Armenian collaboration with Russia before the Ottoman/German crackdown on Armenians, explaining the circumstances that led to that crackdown. Even if your idea that without the Bolshevik Revolution Ottomans would have survived the Russian attacks were true (this time you were wrong about this), this was not my point: my point was the perception of the Ottomans that Armenians were working with the Russians at a time the Sarikamish Battle was lost and Enver Pasha barely survived that battle. This was a turning point that forced Ottomans to follow the German advice and take desperate measures against Armenians.

Again, I repeat, without the Bolshevik Revolution, Russia would have allowed Armenians to exterminate the eastern part of Turkey.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Hal9000.

I did not know that Monstern Gardener was anti-Islam

I am not against all Muslims and Forms of Islam in all times and place.......

There are even some forms and Muslims towards whom I am sympathetic....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuhdi_Jasser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sub ... ernational

There are forms of Christianity (Gary North Christian Dominionism, Red Heifer Christians, Pollute We Can Because Jesus Will Soon Be Here....), Communism (Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin), Judaism and other Memes that can be as dangerous or may be worse.......

But I Do consider Islam to be generally an especially dangerous malicious meme that is more often than not reverting to its most virulent forms........

Aggressive, Anti-Freedom, Anti-Art, Anti-Alcohol, Anti-Female, Anti-Music, Domineering, Irredentist, Piratical, Puritanical, Raiding, Slaving, Violent... and much more.........

And out to conquer the world by almost any means necessary......

We Westerners can be pretty ugly but IMVHO at least we generally like Booze, Music, Art and Freedom with some unfortunate exceptions.........

HAL9000 · Post by **HAL9000** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:43 am

Ibrahim wrote: Riiiiiiight. 1.5 million, 5 million. No difference there, right? The allies couldn't occupy Turkey after the war, but Russia could instigate some kind of holocaust during the war while also fighting Germany. Easy.

[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

You are confusing too many things. After Germany was defeated, had Russia not been forced to withdraw from WW I due to the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, the situation would have been very different. Especially after Germany lost WW I and a significant portion of the Ottoman weapons were confiscated by Western powers. There were very few weapons leftover in Ataturk's army encircled in Ankara. The Gallipoli victory was very costly for the Ottoman Empire, depleting significant strength from the eastern part of Anatolia. You are forgetting that the ethnic Turkish population of the Ottomans in Anatolia was rather small, perhaps less than 15 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_ca ... orld_War_I

But after the Bolshevik Revolution and just after WW I, a number of things worked in Ataturk's favor as I will explain better below.

Up to 1917, Russia had already invaded a significant part of the eastern part of Turkey. Enver Pasha's army was devastated already at the Battle of Sarikamish (December 22, 1914 – January 17, 1915) due to poor equipment and inadequate clothing in the Allahuakbar Mountains. Most of the 118,000 soldiers of Enver Pasha were lost especially due to the cold, starvation and disease. Enver barely escaped and saved his life.

Here is a list of weapons the Ottoman Empire had. Note that most weapons were imported from Germany, most rifles and cannons. After WW I, the Western powers confiscated most of these weapons, and the Turkish resistance enclave around Ankara had very limited weapons left, certainly without an arms industry to replenish.
http://www.turkeyswar.com/army/wp.html

Separately, here is the Caucasus Campaign during WW I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Campaign

Essentially, until the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, Russia had already secured a significant part of the Eastern Anatolia, where Armenian gangs were already beginning ethnic cleansing against Turks. Only after the Russians started to pull back the Ottomans started to regain control.

You are comparing a minnow, a salmon, and a great white shark in order. In this comparison the pathetic Greek army is the minnow, the Turkish army encircled in Ankara is the salmon, and the great white shark is Russia.

During the Independence War after WW I, England quietly withdrew from Istanbul, basically the main war was against the pathetic Greek army which was not worth mentioning. Already most of the Ottoman weapons (from Germany of course) were confiscated and only a few machine guns and minimal artillery tubes were left in Ankara, with limited ammunition basically. AFTER defeating Germany, England had more than enough firepower, (artillery and machine guns by the thousands) to exterminate the remaining Turkish resistance enclave in Ankara, but because the British culture was not ready to commit genocide (certainly more polite than Russian Empire, wait until I post the video about the Circassian Genocide in another thread in this forum), because England liked Mustafa Kemal and his entourage due to their progressive and essentially pro-Western attitudes, and because England did not want to leave a power vacuum for the Bolshevik Russia by destroying the Turks, basically England allowed Ataturk's war against Greeks to be successful. It's silly even to mention the Greeks as a serious adversary for the Turks.

On the other hand, during the Independence War conducted by Ataturk, the Bolsheviks were also less aggressive (temporarily) against Turkey, and were willing to work with the Turks to some extent.

Without the Bolshevik Revolution, after the defeat of Germany, Russia would not have had any difficulty holding on to its gains and even further expand its gains in Anatolia, giving the eastern half of Anatolia to Greeks. Once Germany was defeated, Russia had more than enough cannons and machine guns to ethnically cleanse the eastern half of Anatolia in collusion with Armenians.

Actually, the Soviet Union ethnically cleansed millions of Turkic groups in Asia in its own territory. Hundreds of thousands of Azeris were forced to move while the Soviet Union was establishing the current boundaries of Armenia to make sure that Turkey and Azerbaijan did not have a common frontier. And Stalin also sent millions of Turkic people to Siberia. By the way, the Turkic dialects spoken in all these Asian Turkic nations were originally much more similar, but Stalin intentionally sent his linguists to these countries in order to increase the differences in these dialects, so that these nations cannot communicate well and organize any revolt.

Ibrahim · Post by **Ibrahim** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:29 am

HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Riiiiiiight. 1.5 million, 5 million. No difference there, right? The allies couldn't occupy Turkey after the war, but Russia could instigate some kind of holocaust during the war while also fighting Germany. Easy.
[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

You are confusing too many things. After Germany was defeated, had Russia not been forced to withdraw from WW I due to the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, the situation would have
been very different.

This confirms what I said about your misunderstanding of the timeline of these events earlier. Germany was smashing Russia on that front, the war with Germany ended due to the 1917 revolution. If that revolution didn't take place (in your hypothetical world) the Germans would have continued to destroy Imperial Russian armies, leaving less for the hypothetical invasion and ethnic cleansing of Turkey.

Especially after Germany lost WW I and a significant portion of the Ottoman weapons were confiscated by Western powers.

Yup, then the Turks still beat the lavender out of the allied occupation force. So that suggests that there might have been some stiff pushback against this Russian genocide initiative oyu are trying to convince us was not only a possibility, but a veritable certainty.

But after the Bolshevik Revolution and just after WW I, a number of things worked in Ataturk's favor as I will explain better below.

Up to 1917, Russia had already invaded a significant part of the eastern part of Turkey. Enver Pasha's army was devastated already at the Battle of Sarikamish (December 22, 1914 – January 17, 1915) due to poor equipment and inadequate clothing in the Allahuakbar Mountains. Most of the 118,000 soldiers of Enver Pasha were lost especially due to the cold, starvation and disease. ...

Here is a list of weapons the Ottoman Empire had. Note that most weapons were imported from Germany, most rifles and cannons. After WW I, the Western powers confiscated most of these weapons, and the Turkish resistance enclave around Ankara had very limited weapons left, certainly without an arms industry to replenish.

None of these pedestrian details you keep repeating over and over actually support your insane thesis about the ethnic cleansing of Western Turkey by Russia. Stating some factual details and then jumping randomly to your pet theory is not actually a legitimate argument.

Your basic thesis -- that there was an existential threat to the Turkish population from an Armenian-Russian alliance -- is laughable. Also fairly offensive to Armenians, considering what happened to them. Enver Pasha's campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Armenians pretty decisively proves that they Armenians weren't a threat to Turks.

I didn't comment on the rest of your revisionism in detail, there is no point.

monster_gardener · Post by **monster_gardener** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:33 pm

Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Riiiiiiight. 1.5 million, 5 million. No difference there, right? The allies couldn't occupy Turkey after the war, but Russia could instigate some kind of holocaust during the war while also fighting Germany. Easy.
[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

You are confusing too many things. After Germany was defeated, had Russia not been forced to withdraw from WW I due to the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, the situation would have
been very different.
This confirms what I said about your misunderstanding of the timeline of these events earlier. Germany was smashing Russia on that front, the war with Germany ended due to the 1917 revolution. If that revolution didn't take place (in your hypothetical world) the Germans would have continued to destroy Imperial Russian armies, leaving less for the hypothetical invasion and ethnic cleansing of Turkey.

Especially after Germany lost WW I and a significant portion of the Ottoman weapons were confiscated by Western powers.
Yup, then the Turks still beat the lavender out of the allied occupation force. So that suggests that there might have been some stiff pushback against this Russian genocide initiative oyu are trying to convince us was not only a possibility, but a veritable certainty.

But after the Bolshevik Revolution and just after WW I, a number of things worked in Ataturk's favor as I will explain better below.

Up to 1917, Russia had already invaded a significant part of the eastern part of Turkey. Enver Pasha's army was devastated already at the Battle of Sarikamish (December 22, 1914 – January 17, 1915) due to poor equipment and inadequate clothing in the Allahuakbar Mountains. Most of the 118,000 soldiers of Enver Pasha were lost especially due to the cold, starvation and disease. ...

Here is a list of weapons the Ottoman Empire had. Note that most weapons were imported from Germany, most rifles and cannons. After WW I, the Western powers confiscated most of these weapons, and the Turkish resistance enclave around Ankara had very limited weapons left, certainly without an arms industry to replenish.
None of these pedestrian details you keep repeating over and over actually support your insane thesis about the ethnic cleansing of Western Turkey by Russia. Stating some factual details and then jumping randomly to your pet theory is not actually a legitimate argument.

Your basic thesis -- that there was an existential threat to the Turkish population from an Armenian-Russian alliance -- is laughable. Also fairly offensive to Armenians, considering what happened to them. Enver Pasha's campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Armenians pretty decisively proves that they Armenians weren't a threat to Turks.

I didn't comment on the rest of your revisionism in detail, there is no point.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

You may be correct..........

Perhaps the Turks were complete Jerks and there was absolutely NO explanation/excuse/reason/justification/circumstances for what the Turks did to the Armenians other than that the Turks & Kurds were EVIL ISLAMIC MURDERERS at Heart demonstrating what potentially may await non-Muslims when Muslims have power.......

AND the Turks were NEVER properly punished more or less like happened to the Germans/Nazis.....

Except for bombing and other Blowback from the Turk's former Bully Boyz the Kurds who replaced the Armenians and know quite well NOT to trust the Turks........

That is what I have believed until HAL9000 raised the possibility of slightly mitigating circumstances.

And this was something that cannot simply be swept under the Ottoman

Various Ottoman politicians, generals, and intellectuals were transferred to Malta, where they were held for some three years while searches were made of archives in Constantinople, London, Paris and Washington to investigate their actions.[79] However, the Inter-allied tribunal attempt demanded by the Treaty of Sèvres never solidified and the detainees were eventually returned to Turkey in exchange for British citizens held by Kemalist Turkey.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_holocaust#International_trials

OTOH in the interest of truth...........Remembering that When the Russian Bear turned Red, its military efficiency rose remarkably..... Was able to kick out the Allies who attacked it for making peace with the Germans...

And that Enver Pasha was put down by the Red Russians.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Pash ... 2C_1921-22

HAL9000 · Post by **HAL9000** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:07 pm

Ibrahim wrote:
This confirms what I said about your misunderstanding of the timeline of these events earlier. Germany was smashing Russia on that front, the war with Germany ended due to the 1917 revolution. If that revolution didn't take place (in your hypothetical world) the Germans would have continued to destroy Imperial Russian armies, leaving less for the hypothetical invasion and ethnic cleansing of Turkey.

Germany surrendered about a year after the Bolshevik revolution in 1917. So you mean this would have given time to Germany to wipe out Russia and invade it as much has the Third Reich during WW II? Good luck with your superficiality.

Especially after Germany lost WW I and a significant portion of the Ottoman weapons were confiscated by Western powers.
Yup, then the Turks still beat the lavender out of the allied occupation force. So that suggests that there might have been some stiff pushback against this Russian genocide initiative oyu are trying to convince us was not only a possibility, but a veritable certainty.

The Greek and Armenian armies were laughable.
1)As I said, England and France actually favored Ataturk and his entourage because they knew that the new Turkish government would be peaceful.
2) Note that England actually quietly pulled out of Istanbul without a fight. Had England decided to bring in tens of thousands of cannons and machine guns, they would have easily crushed any resistance, but England was not interested in a genocide. So after the defeat of Germany, the England and France together outnumbered the Turkish resistance well over 10 to 1, and outgunned them by well over 1000 to 1, but they chose not to use that power because they were not ready to commit genocide, and they preferred to establish peace with Ataturk.
3) Without the Russians, the Armenians had no chance of course, which is my point.

Anyway, this is a digression due to your need to fight me, clearly without the Bolshevik Revolution, the Russians would have managed to hold on to their initial gains illustrated in the above map, and they would have given that North East of Turkey to the Armenians, while ethnically cleansing those Turks who lived there. Enver Pasha was in retreat after the Sarikamish battle where he lost most of his 118,000 soldiers.

Just under your nose, 20 years ago, Armenians with the help of the Russian military, have actually ethnically cleansed 600,000 Azeri Turks. The reason a relatively small percentage of the 600,000 died is because they managed to escape to Northern Azerbaijan and they received food.

Ibrahim · Post by **Ibrahim** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:01 pm

HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
This confirms what I said about your misunderstanding of the timeline of these events earlier. Germany was smashing Russia on that front, the war with Germany ended due to the 1917 revolution. If that revolution didn't take place (in your hypothetical world) the Germans would have continued to destroy Imperial Russian armies, leaving less for the hypothetical invasion and ethnic cleansing of Turkey.

Germany surrendered about a year after the Bolshevik revolution in 1917.

Yeah, after destroying several Russian armies prior to October 1917.

Especially after Germany lost WW I and a significant portion of the Ottoman weapons were confiscated by Western powers.
Yup, then the Turks still beat the lavender out of the allied occupation force. So that suggests that there might have been some stiff pushback against this Russian genocide initiative oyu are trying to convince us was not only a possibility, but a veritable certainty.
The Greek and Armenian armies were laughable.

Yes, they were. This benefits my argument, not yours.

Anyway, this is a digression due to your need to fight me,

No, this digression is a correction of your absurd claim that there was a potential Russo-Armenian ethnic cleansing of Eastern Turkey at the end of WW1.

Azrael · Post by **Azrael** » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:43 pm

Ibrahim wrote:
HAL9000 wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Riiiiiiight. 1.5 million, 5 million. No difference there, right? The allies couldn't occupy Turkey after the war, but Russia could instigate some kind of holocaust during the war while also fighting Germany. Easy.
[emphasis added by HAL 9000]

You are confusing too many things. After Germany was defeated, had Russia not been forced to withdraw from WW I due to the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution, the situation would have
been very different.
This confirms what I said about your misunderstanding of the timeline of these events earlier. Germany was smashing Russia on that front, the war with Germany ended due to the 1917 revolution. If that revolution didn't take place (in your hypothetical world) the Germans would have continued to destroy Imperial Russian armies, leaving less for the hypothetical invasion and ethnic cleansing of Turkey.

Indeed. In fact, there probably wouldn't have even been a revolution if Russia hadn't been doing so poorly in the war.

Hal's maps show up to mid-1916; but 1917 and later are more relevant.

Especially after Germany lost WW I and a significant portion of the Ottoman weapons were confiscated by Western powers.
Yup, then the Turks still beat the lavender out of the allied occupation force. So that suggests that there might have been some stiff pushback against this Russian genocide initiative you are trying to convince us was not only a possibility, but a veritable certainty.

Hal's thesis sounds like a paranoid fantasy used to justify the horrible crimes against the Armenians. I guess the Armenians are on his list.

But after the Bolshevik Revolution and just after WW I, a number of things worked in Ataturk's favor as I will explain better below.

Up to 1917, Russia had already invaded a significant part of the eastern part of Turkey. Enver Pasha's army was devastated already at the Battle of Sarikamish (December 22, 1914 – January 17, 1915) due to poor equipment and inadequate clothing in the Allahuakbar Mountains. Most of the 118,000 soldiers of Enver Pasha were lost especially due to the cold, starvation and disease. ...

Here is a list of weapons the Ottoman Empire had. Note that most weapons were imported from Germany, most rifles and cannons. After WW I, the Western powers confiscated most of these weapons, and the Turkish resistance enclave around Ankara had very limited weapons left, certainly without an arms industry to replenish.
None of these pedestrian details you keep repeating over and over actually support your insane thesis about the ethnic cleansing of Western Turkey by Russia. Stating some factual details and then jumping randomly to your pet theory is not actually a legitimate argument.

Your basic thesis -- that there was an existential threat to the Turkish population from an Armenian-Russian alliance -- is laughable. Also fairly offensive to Armenians, considering what happened to them.

Yes. It would be like arguing that the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were on the verge of exterminating the Germans. It would be laughable, if it weren't so offensive.

Enver Pasha's campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Armenians pretty decisively proves that they Armenians weren't a threat to Turks.

I didn't comment on the rest of your revisionism in detail, there is no point.

Perhaps he could get a job at Debka. There's a market for that sort of stuff.

cincinnatus · Post by **cincinnatus** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:35 pm

No fighting in the war room people...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Fr ... rld_War_I)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Campaign

Unless Wiki is full fo lavender...

Ibrahim · Post by **Ibrahim** » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:51 pm

cincinnatus wrote:No fighting in the war room people...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Fr ... rld_War_I)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Campaign

Unless Wiki is full fo lavender...

I don't think we're even arguing over facts, but rather the likelihood of a hypothetical scenario.

Jnalum Persicum · Post by **Jnalum Persicum** » Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:15 pm

TX-6fv3kuJs

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