English as a world language

Past and present. You can't make this stuff up.
User avatar
Torchwood
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:01 am

English as a world language

Post by Torchwood »

This survey of English as a world language is interesting. Developed countries with small native language communities - essentially European - unsurprisingly do best, indeed in Scandinavia and Holland they don't even bother to dub or subtitle English films or TV programmes. Interesting to see how comparable countries in eastern Europe are catching up fast, though. I thought it helped that Scandinavian languages and Dutch are close to English, so it is easier to learn, but the Finns and Hungarians (with ghastly Ural Altaic languages) do equally well. Latin countries are the laggards, and what is notable is the poor levels in Latin America. Spanish and Portuguese are big enough language communities that one can manage a sophisticated level of modern culture without it - but not globalised business - but it also reflects the poor general standards of education in these countries.

Some 80% of proficient English speakers are now non natives, and some 25% of the world's population have at least a smattering. The non natives do prefer to speak to other non natives, the native speakers go too fast and use too many idioms. As I work in a global company, and speak what is now a minority dialect (standard Brit) it has been a long learning curve to adjust one's speech and written style in a business context to the modern Koine, have never been taught this formally.

India has a new goddess - of English. A statue of liberty in a floppy hat holds a pen aloft and stands on a computer. The shrine in a village in Uttar Pradesh also venerates Thomas Macaulay, who introduced English language teaching to India. He was a classic arrogant 19C progressive contemptuous of "native" culture, but then the temple has been founded by Dalits (untouchables) who doubtless have a more jaundiced view of traditional Hindu culture than Brahmins.

Oh India, just love it, combines the mindset of 21C AD and 21C BC, misses out most of the stuff in between.
Image
User avatar
Enki
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Enki »

It is very interesting. If you want to talk to most everyone on the planet, English, Spanish, Mandarin and Arabic will cover most of your bases. My daughter is in an English/Spanish dual-immersion program, every other day the whole day all lessons are taught in Spanish the other day is English. There are lots of kids that are primarily Spanish speaking in class with primarily English speaking students. There is one kid in that program who speaks Arabic, he is going to have a huge leg-up.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: English as a world language

Post by Mr. Perfect »

For Americans there is almost no utilitarian purpose for learning another language. I remember in the 1980's there was Spanish push, you would be "left behind" if you didn't and of course I have not been left behind. No reason to learn that language. Arabic even less.

One of my best friends is an importer for nearly 30 years from Asia, travels there 3-4 times per year and speaks not a word.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Torchwood
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:01 am

Re: English as a world language

Post by Torchwood »

Mr. Perfect wrote:For Americans there is almost no utilitarian purpose for learning another language. I remember in the 1980's there was Spanish push, you would be "left behind" if you didn't and of course I have not been left behind. No reason to learn that language. Arabic even less.

One of my best friends is an importer for nearly 30 years from Asia, travels there 3-4 times per year and speaks not a word.
Up to a point, yes. I can remember attending European conferences thirty years ago where simultaneous interpreters were needed, nowadays it is all in English. We would not do a fraction of the business my company does in China, Russia or Latin America without native speakers, however. Culturally it is another matter, I express myself and even think differently in French than in English, yet these are closely related languages and you can be just as modern and developed in French, but in a different way.
User avatar
Enki
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Enki »

Torchwood wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:For Americans there is almost no utilitarian purpose for learning another language. I remember in the 1980's there was Spanish push, you would be "left behind" if you didn't and of course I have not been left behind. No reason to learn that language. Arabic even less.

One of my best friends is an importer for nearly 30 years from Asia, travels there 3-4 times per year and speaks not a word.
Up to a point, yes. I can remember attending European conferences thirty years ago where simultaneous interpreters were needed, nowadays it is all in English. We would not do a fraction of the business my company does in China, Russia or Latin America without native speakers, however. Culturally it is another matter, I express myself and even think differently in French than in English, yet these are closely related languages and you can be just as modern and developed in French, but in a different way.
My wife can speak a basic get by tourist version of Spanish, Portuguese, French and some Mandarin. She has never expressed to me that it was useless for her to know these languages, particularly on business in Brazil and Mexico.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
User avatar
Torchwood
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:01 am

Re: English as a world language

Post by Torchwood »

Even basic language skills will reduce the rip off rate applied by taxi drivers on ignorant foreigners. Without any local language you tend to stay in the cocoon of hotels and taxis, getting around normally is more difficult, elites may speak English but many others don't, except in high proficiency countries.

I speak some basic Spanish, but not Portuguese (although I can read it). Such is the impenetrable pronunciation, that in Brazil they can understand me speaking Spanish, but I usually cannot understand the Portuguese answers.

To get the different cultural feel of another language, you need a high level of fluency. I was brought up bilingual, so it is not a fair benchmark.
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by noddy »

in my region english is the most useful language, even used amongst non english speakers as the shared tongue.

i used to be excellent at melanesian pigeon but thats become rusty from lack of use and did learn french and indonesian at school but never used them enough to make it real.
ultracrepidarian
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by noddy »

Oh India, just love it, combines the mindset of 21C AD and 21C BC, misses out most of the stuff in between.
india is the place i most want to visit, just infront of south america... for some reason the gondwana countries are the most appealing to me, you lot can keep the continent.
ultracrepidarian
User avatar
Enki
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Enki »

Torchwood wrote:Even basic language skills will reduce the rip off rate applied by taxi drivers on ignorant foreigners. Without any local language you tend to stay in the cocoon of hotels and taxis, getting around normally is more difficult, elites may speak English but many others don't, except in high proficiency countries.
Clients usually provide drivers for those sorts of trips.
I speak some basic Spanish, but not Portuguese (although I can read it). Such is the impenetrable pronunciation, that in Brazil they can understand me speaking Spanish, but I usually cannot understand the Portuguese answers.
My wife said she was surprised at how much like English Portuguese is and found it pretty easy. She close to fluent in Spanish, just not confident speaking it, but I imagine after a month in Mexico she'd be just fine.
To get the different cultural feel of another language, you need a high level of fluency. I was brought up bilingual, so it is not a fair benchmark.
Yeah, makes sense. I would like to properly learn Spanish. I speak pidgin Spanish.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27267
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: English as a world language

Post by Typhoon »

Speaking of the popularity of English or English speaking:

NYT | High demand causes 'Toefl crisis' in South Korea
Forget the North Korean nuclear crisis. What has many South Koreans in an uproar these days is the "Toefl crisis." With demand for the test far outstripping available slots, and scalpers demanding exorbitant prices, desperate South Koreans have been hunting for possible test sites from Japan to Southeast Asia, even Australia. Travel agencies have begun offering "Toefl tours" that include test preparation courses, a guaranteed test slot and sometimes even a bit of tourism on the side. One test preparation school estimates that about 500 Koreans a month travel to other countries to take the test.

With South Koreans making up one of the largest foreign student communities in the United States - about 93,000 students in 2006, according to the U.S. immigration authorities - it is hardly surprising that demand for the test would be high. American colleges and graduate schools typically require foreign students to submit Toefl scores with their applications.

But in recent years, Toefl scores have also become a necessity even for South Koreans with no intention of leaving the country. Many people, from teenagers applying to selective secondary schools to adults applying for jobs - even jobs with no obvious need for fluency in English - must submit Toefl scores. Dozens of universities require Toefl for graduation. Governmental offices and quasi-governmental agencies - city councils, jails, the Korea Racing Association - ask applicants for scores.
In Japan, the method of English instruction, with its overemphasis on grammar and reading, is long outdated.

One company, Rakuten, recently made news by adopting English for its operations.

[I still have trouble with it's, its', and its.]
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Azrael »

Torchwood wrote:This survey of English as a world language is interesting. Developed countries with small native language communities - essentially European - unsurprisingly do best, indeed in Scandinavia and Holland they don't even bother to dub or subtitle English films or TV programmes. Interesting to see how comparable countries in eastern Europe are catching up fast, though.
My mother has been to the Baltic Countries (Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia) and was very impressed with their level of English proficiency. She said that they tend to speak much better English than the Germans do. In my experience, Germans speak better English than the French, Spanish or Italians do, and Scandinavians and folks from the Low Countries are the best non-native speakers I've encountered in Europe (although I've never been to the Baltic Countries).
I thought it helped that Scandinavian languages and Dutch are close to English, so it is easier to learn, but the Finns and Hungarians (with ghastly Ural Altaic languages) do equally well.
If you speak Hungarian or Finnish, you pretty much have to learn a foreign language to do business outside of your small country. In Finland, a large percentage of the population can speak Swedish (generally from a young age), so they have experience learning foreign languages. Historically, many people in Hungary spoke German.
Latin countries are the laggards, and what is notable is the poor levels in Latin America. Spanish and Portuguese are big enough language communities that one can manage a sophisticated level of modern culture without it - but not globalised business - but it also reflects the poor general standards of education in these countries.
Indeed. And they no longer have poverty as an excuse for their embarrassing educational systems, since there are parts of Latin American that are substantially wealthier than much of Eastern Europe and east Asia.
Some 80% of proficient English speakers are now non natives, and some 25% of the world's population have at least a smattering. The non natives do prefer to speak to other non natives, the native speakers go too fast and use too many idioms. As I work in a global company, and speak what is now a minority dialect (standard Brit) it has been a long learning curve to adjust one's speech and written style in a business context to the modern Koine, have never been taught this formally.
Are you referring to Standard American English or Globish?
India has a new goddess - of English. A statue of liberty in a floppy hat holds a pen aloft and stands on a computer. The shrine in a village in Uttar Pradesh also venerates Thomas Macaulay, who introduced English language teaching to India. He was a classic arrogant 19C progressive contemptuous of "native" culture, but then the temple has been founded by Dalits (untouchables) who doubtless have a more jaundiced view of traditional Hindu culture than Brahmins.
They're right to venerate him. He certainly treated them better than their Indian "betters" did. He did better by the Indian people than the populist (and elitist at the same time) Hindu ultra-nationalist demagogues who decided to impose a regional language (Hindi) on the whole subcontinent (well, as much of it as they could).
Oh India, just love it, combines the mindset of 21C AD and 21C BC, misses out most of the stuff in between.
Image
I know what you mean . . . it really isn't fair. They've spent most of their time being ruled by bloodthirsty central Asian thugs or Hindu-elitist thugs.
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Azrael »

Typhoon wrote:Speaking of the popularity of English or English speaking:

NYT | High demand causes 'Toefl crisis' in South Korea
Forget the North Korean nuclear crisis. What has many South Koreans in an uproar these days is the "Toefl crisis." With demand for the test far outstripping available slots, and scalpers demanding exorbitant prices, desperate South Koreans have been hunting for possible test sites from Japan to Southeast Asia, even Australia. Travel agencies have begun offering "Toefl tours" that include test preparation courses, a guaranteed test slot and sometimes even a bit of tourism on the side. One test preparation school estimates that about 500 Koreans a month travel to other countries to take the test.

With South Koreans making up one of the largest foreign student communities in the United States - about 93,000 students in 2006, according to the U.S. immigration authorities - it is hardly surprising that demand for the test would be high. American colleges and graduate schools typically require foreign students to submit Toefl scores with their applications.

But in recent years, Toefl scores have also become a necessity even for South Koreans with no intention of leaving the country. Many people, from teenagers applying to selective secondary schools to adults applying for jobs - even jobs with no obvious need for fluency in English - must submit Toefl scores. Dozens of universities require Toefl for graduation. Governmental offices and quasi-governmental agencies - city councils, jails, the Korea Racing Association - ask applicants for scores.
In Japan, the method of English instruction, with its overemphasis on grammar and reading, is long outdated.
Japanese schools need to hire more Americans with second rate degrees from third rate universities to teach colloquial English, bro.
One company, Rakuten, recently made news by adopting English for its operations.
Inform Saturday Night Live. It sounds like a comic goldmine.
[I still have trouble with it's, its', and its.]
Don't feel bad.
it's -- it is
its' -- not familiar with this one . . . third person neuter singular possessive pronoun?
its -- third person neuter singular possessive determiner

At least you're not like the fools who post comments containing "your in america -- speak english".
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Azrael »

Mr. Perfect wrote:For Americans there is almost no utilitarian purpose for learning another language. I remember in the 1980's there was Spanish push, you would be "left behind" if you didn't and of course I have not been left behind. No reason to learn that language.
Unless you want to know what your gardener is saying about you behind your back or get laid in Mexico without paying the full gringo fee.
Arabic even less.
A lot of folks at the Pentagon and Langley agree with you. That must be why our intelligence community is doing such a stellar job.
One of my best friends is an importer for nearly 30 years from Asia, travels there 3-4 times per year and speaks not a word.
Not speaking a word of a foreign language in spite of traveling to Asia 3-4 times a year for nearly 30 years is quite an accomplishment.
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Apollonius
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:32 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Apollonius »

Interesting list, Torchwood, even though there are no surprises.


English is the world language now with Mandarin and Spanish the only other real contenders, except that these two have some serious competition and hostility from strong neighbouring languages in the second tier, like Cantonese, Korean, Japanese, Thai, and like Portuguese and French. Also, Mandarin and Spanish are not truly worldwide in extent, certainly not in the same way English is.


English is gaining strongly in India and southern and eastern Africa (and Africa in general). In both regions there is no mutually agreed upon local language for inter-ethnic communication and English is seen as the way forward for economic progress for tens of millions of people.




Arabic isn't at all in the same league as the others I mentioned. For starters, it is not a single language, even less so than Chinese, which does at least have a recognizable written standard. Arabic has several standards, including classical Arabic, which has a similar status and role as Latin in the West, useful for religious and historical studies and as a source of literary inspiration, but it's not a living language.

There's almost nothing written in modern Arabic (especially if you are not interested in contemporary confrontational politics). It certainly does not even begin to equal German or Russian or Japanese.




Personally, I've studied a good two dozen languages, and although I've only managed fluency in English and German, I could get by where appropriate in French, Spanish, and Portuguese.


Since I travel very little anymore but continue to be an avid reader, it's really English, German, French, Italian, and Spanish that I care about. A little Latin and Greek can come in handy. I do wish I could read Chinese, but it's hopeless for an old guy like me, and isn't at all useful for my musical studies.
User avatar
Enki
Posts: 5052
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:04 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Enki »

I don't think most people learn languages in order to read scholarly texts in those languages.

The argument about Arabic having no standardization is good to point out, but I mentioned Arabic simply because there is a vast population that speaks it.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: English as a world language

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Azrael wrote: Unless you want to know what your gardener is saying about you behind your back or get laid in Mexico without paying the full gringo fee.
As I said, no need to learn the language. ;)
A lot of folks at the Pentagon and Langley agree with you. That must be why our intelligence community is doing such a stellar job.
Since less that 1% of the population is in any way involved with this.

Arabic is unbelievably irrelevant.
Not speaking a word of a foreign language in spite of traveling to Asia 3-4 times a year for nearly 30 years is quite an accomplishment.
Tbh this fellow walks to his own rhythm but when traveling over there with him or not I never needed any help.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27267
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: English as a world language

Post by Typhoon »

Azrael wrote: . . .
One of my best friends is an importer for nearly 30 years from Asia, travels there 3-4 times per year and speaks not a word.
Not speaking a word of a foreign language in spite of traveling to Asia 3-4 times a year for nearly 30 years is quite an accomplishment.
Indeed. Not to be outdone, I've met the occasional expat who has lived in Japan for over a decade and does not know more than five basic expressions in Japanese.

Hard for me to imagine living in a country for a length of time and not being able to communicate, at least on a basic level, in the local language.

I'm thinking about learning Mandarin, mostly for interest, rather than any requirement.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27267
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: English as a world language

Post by Typhoon »

Azrael wrote: . . .
In Japan, the method of English instruction, with its overemphasis on grammar and reading, is long outdated.
Japanese schools need to hire more Americans with second rate degrees from third rate universities to teach colloquial English, bro.
Well, there is the JET program, but it needs to be greatly expanded rather than being scaled back.
Azrael wrote:
One company, Rakuten, recently made news by adopting English for its operations.
Inform Saturday Night Live. It sounds like a comic goldmine.
I can add Uniqlo to the list.

I doubt that either will top the apocryphal story of the Japanese company that licensed Woody Woodpecker as their mascot and came out with a product called

Internet Pecker

with the slogan

Touch the Woody
Azrael wrote:
[I still have trouble with it's, its', and its.]
Don't feel bad.
it's -- it is
its' -- not familiar with this one . . . third person neuter singular possessive pronoun?
its -- third person neuter singular possessive determiner

At least you're not like the fools who post comments containing "your in america -- speak english".
:lol: Every country has its share of intolerant idiots.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
Posts: 2153
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

its' -- third person neuter plural possessive pronoun.....'>.........
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27267
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: English as a world language

Post by Typhoon »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:its' -- third person neuter plural possessive pronoun.....'>.........
Thank you. Example of use?
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27267
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: English as a world language

Post by Typhoon »

May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Torchwood
Posts: 496
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:01 am

Re: English as a world language

Post by Torchwood »

Typhoon wrote:
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:its' -- third person neuter plural possessive pronoun.....'>.........
Thank you. Example of use?
No, its' does not exist. The correct pronoun for this use is their.

The manager of my company's China office has lived there for fifteen years but still only manages basic Chinese, but then he has a wooden ear. The combination of tones, limited vocabulary with numerous contextual meanings and the writing system means that even if China becomes economically dominant (a big if) Chinese won't displace English.

Mark you, it is not an ideal choice for ease of learning. It has mercifully lost the worst horrors of Indo European grammar such as cases and genders but the verbs are nasty, and then there is the ghastly disconnect between spelling and pronunciation. Like Microsoft Windows really, not a good global standard but better than not having one.

Apparently of the major languages Malay/Indonesian is the easiest to learn, phonetic, easy to pronounce, very simple grammar.
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Azrael »

Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:its' -- third person neuter plural possessive pronoun.....'>.........
Isn't the term generally used as a third person neuter plural possessive pronoun "theirs"? Eg: The house is theirs.

The third person neuter plural possessive determiner would be "their". Eg: That is their house.

See English personal pronouns
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Apollonius
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:32 pm

Re: English as a world language

Post by Apollonius »

Torchwood wrote:The manager of my company's China office has lived there for fifteen years but still only manages basic Chinese, but then he has a wooden ear. The combination of tones, limited vocabulary with numerous contextual meanings and the writing system means that even if China becomes economically dominant (a big if) Chinese won't displace English.

It works both ways. I worked for many years in an environment with many Chinese employees. Most of them were actually born in Canada, but it turns out that even second and third generation Chinese immigrants have a great deal of difficulty learning to speak really good English. The vast differences in language structure, meanings, and pronunciation no doubt accounts for the often humourous results known as Chinglish.

This is in marked contrast with immigrants from India. Second generation Indian immigrants often speak English at least as well as native born Canadians. It's hard to think of a Chinese author who writes decent English, whereas there are many English language literary stars who came from or whose parents came from India. I think this is a clear demonstration of how learning languages that are in the same language family is a much easier task than learning those that are not.
Ibrahim
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:06 am

Re: English as a world language

Post by Ibrahim »

Every Canadian-born and raised Chinese person I've ever met speaks flawless English (or what passes for such in Canada at any rate). And I've met more than a few.


Still, anecdotal evidence and all that....
Post Reply