English as a world language

[Enki]

Every Canadian-born and raised Chinese person I've ever met speaks flawless English (or what passes for such in Canada at any rate). And I've met more than a few.


Still, anecdotal evidence and all that....

Every person of any ethnicity born and raised in the US I have ever met speaks fluent English.

[Enki]

. . .

One of my best friends is an importer for nearly 30 years from Asia, travels there 3-4 times per year and speaks not a word.

Not speaking a word of a foreign language in spite of traveling to Asia 3-4 times a year for nearly 30 years is quite an accomplishment.

Indeed. Not to be outdone, I've met the occasional expat who has lived in Japan for over a decade and does not know more than five basic expressions in Japanese.

Hard for me to imagine living in a country for a length of time and not being able to communicate, at least on a basic level, in the local language.

I'm thinking about learning Mandarin, mostly for interest, rather than any requirement.

If I were to move to another country, within 30 days I'd have a vocabulary of 1000 words at least. I'd be up on Rosetta Stone every day from the moment the plan to move was solid, until I was fluent in the language.

If you are immersed in a language, it's really easy to pick up 10 vocabulary words per day. If you do ten words for half hour in the morning then hear them all day, you'll have those words by the end of the day.

[Taboo]

As a double expat, I feel I should share my experience here.

1. Whoever said Hungarians are proficient at English lied. In my experience, some young people in Budapest, Pecs and Debrecen speak English. Most people do not, or at least nowhere near fluency.

2. Baltics have flawless English. I'm actually thinking of taking my gf to Talinn to watch Les Miserable musical on Christmas day - Russians don't speak English and tend to dub everything - including musicals.

3. Personally, after 1 year in Russia, I feel that my Russian has kinda plateaued after about 3000 words, and my grammar is terrible. I can sightread cyrillic, and make light gesture-supported conversation at parties, but I feel little incentive to learn more, mostly because I have better things to do with my time (i.e. sorting socks, watching kittens meow on youtube) and because I don't plan to be here too long. There are expats who are perfectly fluent, but also those who have lived here 10-15 years and still speak no Russian at all. They do all however have the apparently mandatory massively endowed russian gf. I guess they speak English. Or maybe speaking is not essential. Me, I'm dating an american expat. I know, I'm weird.

[Apollonius]

Every person of any ethnicity born and raised in the US I have ever met speaks fluent English.

This is really curious.


Do you think the educational system in New York is better than in western Canada? Are immigrants less clustered and confined within their own communities?



For a while I thought that the poor English of Chinese immigrants and children of immigrants was a result of mainly circulating within their own mostly closed communities, but there are large East Indian communities here too, and they don't have the same problem.


In any case, your experience is radically different from mine. I'm trying to figure out why. I worked in a highly literate environment (the world of libraries) where excellent English was really a basic requirement, and yet, as I say, to hear excellent English from Chinese immigrants and their children was rare (I can't think of any). Are my standards too high? Is my sample too small? (I sincerely doubt that it is smaller than yours).



What about authors? Anyone care to name some prize winning Chinese authors who write in English and then compare that to a list made up of Indian authors writing in English?

[Enki]

I don't know.

What is your standard for fluency? Mine is that they speak comprehensible street English, not that they use the Oxford Comma properly.

I have not ever been to western Canada so I don't know what it's like there. There are definitely ghettos where one can be surrounded only by their ethnic community in New York, and I suppose the likelihood that I am going to meet one of those people who doesn't speak English well is very low. I probably would also assume that if they do not speak English that they are immigrants, not native born. But here in school, they are forced to learn English.

[Ibrahim]

I don't know.

What is your standard for fluency? Mine is that they speak comprehensible street English, not that they use the Oxford Comma properly.

I have not ever been to western Canada so I don't know what it's like there. There are definitely ghettos where one can be surrounded only by their ethnic community in New York, and I suppose the likelihood that I am going to meet one of those people who doesn't speak English well is very low. I probably would also assume that if they do not speak English that they are immigrants, not native born. But here in school, they are forced to learn English.

I've been to Western Canada and anybody born here speaks English the same way, regardless of race. Why wouldn't they? Immigrants can vary from full Mickey Rooney stereotype to just a noticeable accent. The one exception is Sikhs in Vancouver, who all seem to share something in their speech even if they are born here. I wouldn't call it an accent, its almost like mannerisms.


Schools are obviously a part of this, but stewing in an English-language pop culture and media broth for your entire life counts for more than school does.

[Torchwood]

Fred | To Fume, Perchance to Growl - Random Vaporings on Language

Professional curmudgeon Fred on language.

Fred has turned into a Grumpy Old Man (GOM), a predictable and boring species. As discussed in another thread, the internet has revived writing, and it is Fred's generation that spoke on the 'phone. Yes, there is text speak, but the net is also full of Grammar Nazis.

[Endovelico]

I came late to this thread so some of the things I'm going to say should maybe have been said a while earlier.

1. English is today's Latin and there is no way it is going to be replaced by any other language. Far too many people speak it already for any other language to have a chance of becoming a world language. It is also very easy to acquire a basic knowledge of English, although speaking and writing it fluently may take many years. Anyone who has tried to translate Aldous Huxley will know what I mean. The apparent simplicity of English is also highly deceptive. It's an incredibly subtle language and very minor changes in a sentence will change its meaning in a manner which I haven't seen in any other language of which I have some knowledge.

2. I speak fluently enough English, French, Spanish and Dutch, and many people in my country easily acquire some fluency at least in English. Which I think is due to the fact that our phonetics (and I mean Portugal's Portuguese, not Brazilian Portuguese) include most sounds used in most major languages, so that we easily pronounce foreign words in a manner which will be understood by native speakers. I have noticed Russians and Ucranians enjoy the same richness of phonetics, particularly close to our own, so that they often speak very good Portuguese. Spanish phonetics on the other hand (mainly Spain's version) is so poor that speaking another language becomes very difficult for a Spaniard. Even when they know what to say it sounds terrible.

Personally I'm quite happy with English having acquired its unique status as a world language. In fact I think studying English should be compulsory for people all over the world. And all scientific and technical texts should be written and published in English.

[Doc]

I have noticed Russians and Ucranians enjoy the same richness of phonetics, particularly close to our own, so that they often speak very good Portuguese.

That is interesting I have always noticed that when I listen to a group of people at a distance speaking Portuguese they sound like they are speaking Russian. Just the impression I get but it is consistent.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The manager of my company's China office has lived there for fifteen years but still only manages basic Chinese, but then he has a wooden ear. The combination of tones, limited vocabulary with numerous contextual meanings and the writing system means that even if China becomes economically dominant (a big if) Chinese won't displace English.

It works both ways. I worked for many years in an environment with many Chinese employees. Most of them were actually born in Canada, but it turns out that even second and third generation Chinese immigrants have a great deal of difficulty learning to speak really good English. The vast differences in language structure, meanings, and pronunciation no doubt accounts for the often humourous results known as Chinglish.

This is in marked contrast with immigrants from India. Second generation Indian immigrants often speak English at least as well as native born Canadians. It's hard to think of a Chinese author who writes decent English, whereas there are many English language literary stars who came from or whose parents came from India. I think this is a clear demonstration of how learning languages that are in the same language family is a much easier task than learning those that are not.

Perhaps it is merely a local thing? Locally for me it is the Portuguese community who have trouble with English despite, in some cases, being 3rd generation Americans. But the area I'm thinking of has possessed a large Portuguese community that was both self-contained and still closely tied to the motherland. But there are areas of what used to be considered the old German section of town which is completely dead to English and the air is filled with Portuguese. Restaurants in this location hang signs on their door explaining that none of the staff speaks English. It is a huge contrast to the Brazilian community that has appeared in my lifetime. The Brazilians have overrun what used to be main street with quaint shops and restaurants and such; but you never hear them speaking Portuguese in a business setting. At least in that community, they all seem to learn English to a very proficient degree in a very short time and apply it often. It's a real difference.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

My ear has an easier time picking up the romance languages in general than English and its dialects. For example, French, when I started studying it, was a revelation; to my little mind it was as if someone said: "Let's mix English with some Latin/Italian- bada bing bada boom- FRENCH!" That is terribly wrong but the point is that it was very easy to pick up and I can grapple with and "understand" all manners of French pronunciation as second nature. But when it comes to English, to this day I sometimes have a slight hesitation when I hear American English phonetics and have to think through what I am hearing. It doesn't help that my most formative years were spent around rather mute parents while those adults who spoke to me used English as a second language and possessed very heavy Noo Yawk accents.

It took an actual effort to understand some of the actors on Kids in the Hall. There are Australian accents that don't make any sense at all. I sometimes have trouble with American midwesterners; and until I actually took the time to familiarize myself with them, southern accents were totally impenetrable. And the UK- fugetaboutit!! I don't think anyone outside the London area actually speaks English. Now the way the Danish speak English? Perfect.

[Enki]

Perhaps it is merely a local thing? Locally for me it is the Portuguese community who have trouble with English despite, in some cases, being 3rd generation Americans. But the area I'm thinking of has possessed a large Portuguese community that was both self-contained and still closely tied to the motherland. But there are areas of what used to be considered the old German section of town which is completely dead to English and the air is filled with Portuguese. Restaurants in this location hang signs on their door explaining that none of the staff speaks English. It is a huge contrast to the Brazilian community that has appeared in my lifetime. The Brazilians have overrun what used to be main street with quaint shops and restaurants and such; but you never hear them speaking Portuguese in a business setting. At least in that community, they all seem to learn English to a very proficient degree in a very short time and apply it often. It's a real difference.

Worcester?

[Endovelico]

Perhaps it is merely a local thing? Locally for me it is the Portuguese community who have trouble with English despite, in some cases, being 3rd generation Americans. But the area I'm thinking of has possessed a large Portuguese community that was both self-contained and still closely tied to the motherland. But there are areas of what used to be considered the old German section of town which is completely dead to English and the air is filled with Portuguese. Restaurants in this location hang signs on their door explaining that none of the staff speaks English. It is a huge contrast to the Brazilian community that has appeared in my lifetime. The Brazilians have overrun what used to be main street with quaint shops and restaurants and such; but you never hear them speaking Portuguese in a business setting. At least in that community, they all seem to learn English to a very proficient degree in a very short time and apply it often. It's a real difference.

I find it hard to believe but, who knows, maybe you are right. However, if you look to Hawaii, where there is a large Portuguese descendant community, how many of them will still speak Portuguese? None?... Your story might be more credible if you told us of which place you are speaking. Then we could check your facts...

[Enki]

Perhaps it is merely a local thing? Locally for me it is the Portuguese community who have trouble with English despite, in some cases, being 3rd generation Americans. But the area I'm thinking of has possessed a large Portuguese community that was both self-contained and still closely tied to the motherland. But there are areas of what used to be considered the old German section of town which is completely dead to English and the air is filled with Portuguese. Restaurants in this location hang signs on their door explaining that none of the staff speaks English. It is a huge contrast to the Brazilian community that has appeared in my lifetime. The Brazilians have overrun what used to be main street with quaint shops and restaurants and such; but you never hear them speaking Portuguese in a business setting. At least in that community, they all seem to learn English to a very proficient degree in a very short time and apply it often. It's a real difference.

I find it hard to believe but, who knows, maybe you are right. However, if you look to Hawaii, where there is a large Portuguese descendant community, how many of them will still speak Portuguese? None?... Your story might be more credible if you told us of which place you are speaking. Then we could check your facts...

I have never met any first gen Portuguese who struggle with the language. But then again, I don't spend a lot of time in Newark.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Perhaps it is merely a local thing? Locally for me it is the Portuguese community who have trouble with English despite, in some cases, being 3rd generation Americans. But the area I'm thinking of has possessed a large Portuguese community that was both self-contained and still closely tied to the motherland. But there are areas of what used to be considered the old German section of town which is completely dead to English and the air is filled with Portuguese. Restaurants in this location hang signs on their door explaining that none of the staff speaks English. It is a huge contrast to the Brazilian community that has appeared in my lifetime. The Brazilians have overrun what used to be main street with quaint shops and restaurants and such; but you never hear them speaking Portuguese in a business setting. At least in that community, they all seem to learn English to a very proficient degree in a very short time and apply it often. It's a real difference.

I find it hard to believe but, who knows, maybe you are right. However, if you look to Hawaii, where there is a large Portuguese descendant community, how many of them will still speak Portuguese? None?... Your story might be more credible if you told us of which place you are speaking. Then we could check your facts...

Hawaii is a strange state to choose- not only is it so far removed from the normal American experience but I always thought it was New England which had some of the biggest and oldest Portuguese communities- like Newport or Providence, Rhode Island- which is not where I'm talking about. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear- my point was about anecdotes, and how immigrant groups react to the larger culture in different and idiosyncratic ways that have nothing to do with their ethnicity.

As for where exactly it is; it is in a New England state but I'm not comfortable giving it away because I grew up, and currently live, not too far* from there. One of my oldest friends, Rafael, used to invite me to the Portuguese club celebration of Portugal Day, and we had to have him translate between my mother and his mother- she was 2nd generation American herself. Of course, that isn't my only experience- one restaurant with the sign I mentioned outside is located about two blocks away from the hospital in one direction and right next to a school, located in a fairly tiny (but very old) converted home at an intersection on a "German named" road. It, is technically on the outskirts of the Portuguese heavy area but it stood out for me. You could either park on the street to the right or in a little dirt lot across from the place. I used to pass that way years ago, when I was a teenager, because a girl I went to school with worked in there and I had a crush on her but I was too intimidated to make a move...she had a very unusual first name, for me at least, it started with a G but I can't really remember it and I don't think I could ever say it right anyway- another reason I was too timid. Last I heard, she was married and living in Portugal. A community filled with surnames like Almeida, Fonseca, Oliveria, Alves, Barreto, Abdullah, Coelho and Riberio...I spent a year in a Catholic grade-school and we had 21 boys in the class and 7 girls, five named Fernandes but none related and we were taught by Mr.Ferreira in his first year after student teaching, who taught every subject but math and history; our foreign language lessons were both Portuguese and Spanish- and I was at a severe disadvantage to the rest of class, but I can report I finished with a B- and an A in Portuguese for the two quarter of the school year we studied Portuguese.

If I didn't make it clear, this is a pretty "old" community; but this is a pretty big immigrant area, and the Portuguese population to my understanding, was fairly fluid and not settled in the same way as the communities in Worchester or, again, Providence....It is my understanding that many families within this community came here with the factories a century+ ago, would have children go back to to Portugal then they would come back here to work. It is probably my generation where you start seeing a bit more settling down. But even then, the majority of kids I grew up with would spend there summers, or even a few years, in Portugal. Many of them being 3rd and 4th generation Americans.



*Of course, by not too far may mean 30 mins or may mean three hours. Tinker, nice attempt to work out my location.

[Torchwood]

French, when I started studying it, was a revelation; to my little mind it was as if someone said: "Let's mix English with some Latin/Italian- bada bing bada boom- FRENCH!"

Take a basic stock of proto-Dutch and low German, add a dash of Danish, and a large bowl of French. Stir quietly for 500 years, and voila ENGLISH! Add some exotic Oriental spices as well, decorate with a pretentious sprig of Latin, and ship to all corners of the world to modify the recipe.

And the UK- fugetaboutit!! I don't think anyone outside the London area actually speaks English. Now the way the Danish speak English? Perfect.

London -speaking English? You clearly did not encounter Cockney rhyming slang. Most of it has died out , but some words survive e.g the following:
Let's have a butchers at that magazine" (butcher's hook = look)
"I haven't heard a dicky bird about it" (dickie bird = word)
"Use your loaf and think next time" (loaf of bread = head)
"I'm going on my tod" (tod sloan = alone, or own)
"Are you telling porkies?" (porkies = pork pies = lies)
"Are you going to rabbit all night?" (rabbit and pork = talk)
"Scarper lads! The police are coming" (Scapa Flow = go)

My favourite is insulting someone by calling them a "berk". Berkeley Hunt = (you work it out)

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

French, when I started studying it, was a revelation; to my little mind it was as if someone said: "Let's mix English with some Latin/Italian- bada bing bada boom- FRENCH!"

Take a basic stock of proto-Dutch and low German, add a dash of Danish, and a large bowl of French. Stir quietly for 500 years, and voila ENGLISH! Add some exotic Oriental spices as well, decorate with a pretentious sprig of Latin, and ship to all corners of the world to modify the recipe.

And the UK- fugetaboutit!! I don't think anyone outside the London area actually speaks English. Now the way the Danish speak English? Perfect.

London -speaking English? You clearly did not encounter Cockney rhyming slang. Most of it has died out , but some words survive e.g the following:
Let's have a butchers at that magazine" (butcher's hook = look)
"I haven't heard a dicky bird about it" (dickie bird = word)
"Use your loaf and think next time" (loaf of bread = head)
"I'm going on my tod" (tod sloan = alone, or own)
"Are you telling porkies?" (porkies = pork pies = lies)
"Are you going to rabbit all night?" (rabbit and pork = talk)
"Scarper lads! The police are coming" (Scapa Flow = go)

My favourite is insulting someone by calling them a "berk". Berkeley Hunt = (you work it out)

I believe it to be quite the opposite, Admittedly, I may not have met a whole lot of cockneys in social settings but I met plenty by spending a lot of time walking about and talking to random people. Not only were they intelligible to my ear (perhaps only second to only RP); but the cockney rhyming was a whole lot of fun. I lived in Islington near Clerkenwell, which I was told was a traditional cockney area- maybe the cockneys in Shoreditch or Whitechapel are different...In fact, the day I arrived, the handyman at my flat was there to greet me, and introduced himself by saying, "I'm Mark, I'm a cockney." I became known as the geezer of the house. And the thing is, cockney seemingly shares a lot in common with my dialect [non-rhotic speech, replacing th sounds, etc], making it easier to pick up than a lot of the what I heard in Manchester or Glasgow. Plus, the cockneys I met were the only people who were genuinely friendly and kind to me during my year long sojourn through the UK- so perhaps I was more inclined to make an effort in listening.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Geroge Mason University's Speech Accent Archive

[noddy]

French, when I started studying it, was a revelation; to my little mind it was as if someone said: "Let's mix English with some Latin/Italian- bada bing bada boom- FRENCH!"

Take a basic stock of proto-Dutch and low German, add a dash of Danish, and a large bowl of French. Stir quietly for 500 years, and voila ENGLISH! Add some exotic Oriental spices as well, decorate with a pretentious sprig of Latin, and ship to all corners of the world to modify the recipe.

And the UK- fugetaboutit!! I don't think anyone outside the London area actually speaks English. Now the way the Danish speak English? Perfect.

London -speaking English? You clearly did not encounter Cockney rhyming slang. Most of it has died out , but some words survive e.g the following:
Let's have a butchers at that magazine" (butcher's hook = look)
"I haven't heard a dicky bird about it" (dickie bird = word)
"Use your loaf and think next time" (loaf of bread = head)
"I'm going on my tod" (tod sloan = alone, or own)
"Are you telling porkies?" (porkies = pork pies = lies)
"Are you going to rabbit all night?" (rabbit and pork = talk)
"Scarper lads! The police are coming" (Scapa Flow = go)

My favourite is insulting someone by calling them a "berk". Berkeley Hunt = (you work it out)

you have revived my usage of berk - it was common when i was young but i was completely unaware of its etymology .. it was just another word for "twit"

australia still has lots of ex-cockney rhyming slang but its increasingly used in a forced manner by those playing the cliche 'strine parody.

[noddy]

my favourite hinglish word is updation.. took me a while to stop laughing when dealing with indian coders.

creation,deletion and updation.

[Enki]

my favourite hinglish word is updation.. took me a while to stop laughing when dealing with indian coders.

creation,deletion and updation.

Awesome, I am adding that to my newish lexicon of startup codespeak, I'll put it next to coopetition.

[Enki]

you have revived my usage of berk - it was common when i was young but i was completely unaware of its etymology .. it was just another word for "twit"

I was only aware of that word from the Planescape Role-Playing Game setting, and it was just another term for 'dude', which I believe is also a denuded rude epithet.

[YMix]

I was only aware of that word from the Planescape Role-Playing Game setting, and it was just another term for 'dude', which I believe is also a denuded rude epithet.

Same here. The respectful way of addressing a guy is "basher".

[Enki]

I was only aware of that word from the Planescape Role-Playing Game setting, and it was just another term for 'dude', which I believe is also a denuded rude epithet.

Same here. The respectful way of addressing a guy is "basher".

Yep.

[Azrael]

I came late to this thread so some of the things I'm going to say should maybe have been said a while earlier.

1. English is today's Latin and there is no way it is going to be replaced by any other language. Far too many people speak it already for any other language to have a chance of becoming a world language. It is also very easy to acquire a basic knowledge of English, although speaking and writing it fluently may take many years. Anyone who has tried to translate Aldous Huxley will know what I mean. The apparent simplicity of English is also highly deceptive. It's an incredibly subtle language and very minor changes in a sentence will change its meaning in a manner which I haven't seen in any other language of which I have some knowledge.

I agree. English is a subtle language. It separates the men from the boys.

2. I speak fluently enough English, French, Spanish and Dutch, and many people in my country easily acquire some fluency at least in English. Which I think is due to the fact that our phonetics (and I mean Portugal's Portuguese, not Brazilian Portuguese) include most sounds used in most major languages, so that we easily pronounce foreign words in a manner which will be understood by native speakers. I have noticed Russians and Ucranians enjoy the same richness of phonetics, particularly close to our own, so that they often speak very good Portuguese. Spanish phonetics on the other hand (mainly Spain's version) is so poor that speaking another language becomes very difficult for a Spaniard. Even when they know what to say it sounds terrible.

Cuban phonetics is horrid. Eg "bien" sounds like "boing".

Personally I'm quite happy with English having acquired its unique status as a world language. In fact I think studying English should be compulsory for people all over the world. And all scientific and technical texts should be written and published in English.

I agree very strongly. If everyone knew English, sharing ideas would be much easier and it might even lead to the "Perpetual Peace" sketched by Kant.