Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

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Azrael
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Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Azrael »

Let's start throwing some ideas out first, then we might have a discussion.

How about Zhou Enlai

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Juggernaut Nihilism
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Lloyd George maybe. Although Clemenceau weren't no bitch neither.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Ghandi. He has been exagerated to the point of legend, but the reality is still impressive.
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Azrael
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

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Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Lloyd George maybe.
Definitely not.

World War I could have ended a lot sooner if he hadn't gotten sidetracked by his crusade against the Ottoman Empire. Forces were wasted that could have been much better utilized on the Western front or the Macedonian front. And meddling in the Middle East has contributed to much of the problems there today.

He also pretty much destroyed his Liberal Party.
Although Clemenceau weren't no bitch neither.
There I definitely agree. Definitely underrated. And he was right about Germany after the war.
Last edited by Azrael on Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Azrael
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Azrael »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Ghandi. He has been exagerated to the point of legend, but the reality is still impressive.
Impressive, yes; but Hitler did more to liberate India, unintentionally, by bankrupting Britain.
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Endovelico
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Endovelico »

Maybe Lenin. Had he lived, the world might have been a very different and better place. Ant then again, maybe not...
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Torchwood
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Torchwood »

Endovelico wrote:Maybe Lenin. Had he lived, the world might have been a very different and better place. Ant then again, maybe not...
Actually I would put Lenin as in may ways the most evil - without him, clearly Stalin would not have happened, and without his inspiration neither would Hitler. The rest of the Bolsheviks in 1917 were content to go along with the mensheviks (had to go through Marxist stages,including bourgeois democracy, according to the dogma). They needed a genius opportunist psychopath to dare to seize power.

Although Hitler and Stalin are rightly vilified, and Mussolini regarded as a buffoon, I am surprised that there is still a residual cult of Lenin. He was a ruthless killer, it's just that he pales compared to his successors.


Great leaders are not nice men, but still have limits that Lenin did not. So despite their faults , nominations in order of importance: Deng Xiaoping, FDR, Churchill. An honourable mention for Nehru, pity he could not establish a decent economy as well as a stable democracy; I blame a mixture of Fabian soclalism and the malign influence of Gandhi, who thought it morally uplifting to keep the Indian masses in homespun poverty (the masses themselves were never asked). It was commented in the 30s that it took a lot of money to keep Mr. Gandhi in poverty...

Further honourable mentions for two leaders who lifted their countries from defeat into peaceful prosperity, Adenauer and De Gasperi - and that evil ungrateful bastard De Gaulle, because he betrayed his supporters and extracted France from its colonial mess.
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

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Certainly Deng Xiao Ping far above Zhou En Lai who one could argue was complict in the Great Leap Backward and the Cultural Devolution along with Mao's other insanities.

However, as Chou En Lai replied to Kissinger [?] when asked about the impact of the French Revolution,

"It's a little soon to tell",

the same applies to the Deng Xiao Ping Revolution
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Torchwood
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

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Typhoon wrote:Certainly Deng Xiao Ping far above Zhou En Lai who one could argue was complict in the Great Leap Backward and the Cultural Devolution along with Mao's other insanities.

However, as Chou En Lai replied to Kissinger [?] when asked about the impact of the French Revolution,

"It's a little soon to tell",

the same applies to the Deng Xiao Ping Revolution
Deng had a pretty evil past in the 40s, helping "the masses eliminate the landlords" for the Party. You could not be a senior Communist without blood on your hands. Still, Churchill gassing Iraqis well before Saddam did, and forbidding grain ships from Australia to go the relief of the 1943 Bengal famine... and FDR arguably manoeuvring Japan into war... It is the overall achievement that counts. Saints do not make good leaders.
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Enki »

Only Nixon can go to China!

Though, I would make an argument for Eisenhower. ;)

George HW Bush has been up in the thick of things for more than half a century.
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Azrael
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

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Typhoon wrote:Certainly Deng Xiao Ping far above Zhou En Lai who one could argue was complict in the Great Leap Backward and the Cultural Devolution along with Mao's other insanities.
I wouldn't blame the Cultural Revolution on Zhou. In fact, his daughter was tortured to death due to it.

He argued on behalf of Deng during the Cultural Revolution. Perhaps Deng would have lost his life otherwise.
However, as Chou En Lai replied to Kissinger [?] when asked about the impact of the French Revolution,

"It's a little soon to tell",

the same applies to the Deng Xiao Ping Revolution
True.

Perhaps we'll have to revisit this question in another 200 years.
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Azrael
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

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A few more names . . .

How about Lech Wałęsa? Mustafa Kemal Atatürk? Jawaharlal Nehru?
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Torchwood
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

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Azrael wrote:A few more names . . .

How about Lech Wałęsa? Mustafa Kemal Atatürk? Jawaharlal Nehru?
My thoughts on Nehru in my previous post. The other two were locally important but not globally (same is true of Mandela). Youc could argue that Gorbachev was a crap statesman but an important benefactor to mankind.
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Azrael
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Re: Greatest Statesman of the 20th Century

Post by Azrael »

Torchwood wrote:
Azrael wrote:A few more names . . .

How about Lech Wałęsa? Mustafa Kemal Atatürk? Jawaharlal Nehru?
My thoughts on Nehru in my previous post. The other two were locally important but not globally (same is true of Mandela).
I think you are a little too hard on Nehru, but I generally agree with you on the other two and Mandela.

What's your take on P. V. Narasimha Rao?
You could argue that Gorbachev was a crap statesman but an important benefactor to mankind.
Definitely.

What about Eric Wyndham-White?
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