Ever know a murderer?

Past and present. You can't make this stuff up.
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Mr. Perfect
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Ever know a murderer?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Would be interested in your input.

I only know 1. I worked with a guy, many years ago, for maybe 6 months. Made occasional conversation with him. He was completely unremarkable, except his height. I think he was like 6'4".

Several years later, long after we both stopped working there, he gunned down his estranged wife at her workplace and I believe then killed himself, I'd have to look it up. Over some separation/divorce/children issues.

Murder is one of many things where I think we create a caricature often times. I've had a human theory for some time about people that are "lost". They can't seem to grasp on to anything, are sure of nothing, do what it takes to get along but never bought into a morality system or really any kind of system for any number of reasons. Often times speaking to people you get the sense that they don't mean what they say, there is a hidden world in their head we'll never see, and it's not necessarily malevolent or duplicitous but they simple do what is expected of them because it's all they know. I've seen a version of it in religion from both sides, where you'll see a believer mouth the words of belief, lose track of the person for a time then they mouth the words of unbelief, and vice versa. But what really went on behind the eyes.

So we have our archetypes for the killer, the traumatized childhood, the inhuman sociopathic monster, the "mentally ill" is popular now, but truly do we understand this process. Eg, were they always ok with it or did they come to it. Did they always want to do it and were just looking for a way to get away with it. Was it thoughtless. Etc.

This individual if I can say anything about him was of the "lost eyes" category. Never really certain of anything, then one day he conceived that to kill was to solve his problem, and nothing really was there to stop him, in his mind.

This was all some time ago but only became interesting to me more recently.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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noddy
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by noddy »

not sure about murderer - have known too many who lose their reasons to care and just went nihilist ballistic and ended up dead or in jail.

a couple of them always had the appearance of having bits missing and it didnt surprise me much, the others couldnt handle the god like feeling of certain chemical products and went off the rails chasing that trip.

the murder/suicide due to emotional distress and schaundefraude seems to be sadly common however in my world all those buggers where too selfish and indifferent to get that reaction, they just abandoned the situation.
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Yes, several now that I think about it. I guess more of the ruthless or sociopathic kind, no lost look in their eyes; more like they will dominate you by any means necessary.
Demon of Undoing
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Why they kill- The Discoveries of a maverick criminologist
Lonnie Athens was raised by a brutally domineering father. Defying all odds, Athens became a groundbreaking criminologist who turned his scholar's eye to the problem of why people become violent. After a decade of interviewing several hundred violent convicts--men and women of varied background and ethnicity, he discovered "violentization," the four-stage process by which almost any human being can evolve into someone who will assault, rape, or murder another human being. Why They Kill is a riveting biography of Athens and a judicious critique of his seminal work, as well as an unflinching investigation into the history of violence.

Ask not by whom the axe is swung. It is swung by thee. There is no curse that makes people murderers. Ninety-nine percent of the time, it's a learned behavior.
Ibrahim
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:Why they kill- The Discoveries of a maverick criminologist
Lonnie Athens was raised by a brutally domineering father. Defying all odds, Athens became a groundbreaking criminologist who turned his scholar's eye to the problem of why people become violent. After a decade of interviewing several hundred violent convicts--men and women of varied background and ethnicity, he discovered "violentization," the four-stage process by which almost any human being can evolve into someone who will assault, rape, or murder another human being. Why They Kill is a riveting biography of Athens and a judicious critique of his seminal work, as well as an unflinching investigation into the history of violence.

Ask not by whom the axe is swung. It is swung by thee. There is no curse that makes people murderers. Ninety-nine percent of the time, it's a learned behavior.
If you include organized violence, especially but not limited to warfare, it is also taught behavior. Murderers are intentionally created on a daily basis, using no small amount of resources.
Demon of Undoing
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Demon of Undoing »

On Killing - Colonel Dave Grossman

Exactly what Ibs is talking about. The USMC has the necessary program to teach how to be a murderer down to an art form.

It takes about eight weeks.

This is not to say that Marines are inherently murderers. But the program will easily make murderers, only difference being the decisions of leadership. There's a thin line there.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I'm not sure what all this has to do with knowing a murderer, and hopefully ibs doesn't rip off his unit in celebration of the pron supplied by the usual suspect, but I think learning about how say I don't know muslims terrorists acclimate themselves to killing would be more enlightening to the OP over say soldiers.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:On Killing - Colonel Dave Grossman

Exactly what Ibs is talking about. The USMC has the necessary program to teach how to be a murderer down to an art form.

It takes about eight weeks.

This is not to say that Marines are inherently murderers. But the program will easily make murderers, only difference being the decisions of leadership. There's a thin line there.
Military training is technical. How to do X, not why, or whom to do it against. Its a dangerous type of thing to mass-produce.
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Typhoon
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Typhoon »

Thought about this for a while and I can't think of any murderer that I've known [aside from saying a by-chance casual good morning to the former leader of the J-Red Army moments before she was arrested].

On the other hand, I knew two people who were on the receiving end.

One was a professional hit, while I was living in the US, of someone from overseas. The assassin was never identified.

The other, in Japan, died by his own hand.
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

I used to know some in the 80's who had the jailhouse tattoos, but never brought up the subject in discussion. The style then was to tattoo an empty teardrop by the eye when one vowed to murder someone, and to fill it in when the deed was done.
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Demon of Undoing
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Oy.
Last edited by Demon of Undoing on Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Demon of Undoing
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:On Killing - Colonel Dave Grossman

Exactly what Ibs is talking about. The USMC has the necessary program to teach how to be a murderer down to an art form.

It takes about eight weeks.

This is not to say that Marines are inherently murderers. But the program will easily make murderers, only difference being the decisions of leadership. There's a thin line there.
Military training is technical. How to do X, not why, or whom to do it against. Its a dangerous type of thing to mass-produce.
Thing is, and Grossman's book goes into this in depth, a soldier just taught the bare skills of it will wind up creating what SLA Marshall and others have noted happens most often in combat. In WW2, it was found that most troops actually don't try to kill the enemy as much as might be thought. They find other things to do, often just burning rounds in the general direction of the enemy with little actual intent to kill specific targets. They note the one rifle found at Gettysburg that had been loaded shot on top of shot, 11 times. That doesn't happen by accident.

Instead, there are processes that can be created to increase combat participation to pretty much 100%. It's a generally unnatural thing to kill. There are tricks to override that inclination. Marines and suicide bombers are systematically taught to do that by those tricks. The differences in performance between units that have been exposed to that teaching and those that haven't are pretty stark.
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monster_gardener
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Need to learn how not to be a victim.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:On Killing - Colonel Dave Grossman

Exactly what Ibs is talking about. The USMC has the necessary program to teach how to be a murderer down to an art form.

It takes about eight weeks.

This is not to say that Marines are inherently murderers. But the program will easily make murderers, only difference being the decisions of leadership. There's a thin line there.
Military training is technical. How to do X, not why, or whom to do it against. Its a dangerous type of thing to mass-produce.
Thing is, and Grossman's book goes into this in depth, a soldier just taught the bare skills of it will wind up creating what SLA Marshall and others have noted happens most often in combat. In WW2, it was found that most troops actually don't try to kill the enemy as much as might be thought. They find other things to do, often just burning rounds in the general direction of the enemy with little actual intent to kill specific targets. They note the one rifle found at Gettysburg that had been loaded shot on top of shot, 11 times. That doesn't happen by accident.

Instead, there are processes that can be created to increase combat participation to pretty much 100%. It's a generally unnatural thing to kill. There are tricks to override that inclination. Marines and suicide bombers are systematically taught to do that by those tricks. The differences in performance between units that have been exposed to that teaching and those that haven't are pretty stark.
Thank You Very Much for your post, DOU.

I would say learning how not to be a victim is more important........

Remembering the Virginia Tech massacre where some victims were reported to have remained seated at their desks frozen in panic as the vile perp reloaded his weapons.......

Also a relative that insisted on staying with an abusive husband........

She got lucky......
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Ibrahim
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Re: Need to learn how not to be a victim.....

Post by Ibrahim »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:On Killing - Colonel Dave Grossman

Exactly what Ibs is talking about. The USMC has the necessary program to teach how to be a murderer down to an art form.

It takes about eight weeks.

This is not to say that Marines are inherently murderers. But the program will easily make murderers, only difference being the decisions of leadership. There's a thin line there.
Military training is technical. How to do X, not why, or whom to do it against. Its a dangerous type of thing to mass-produce.
Thing is, and Grossman's book goes into this in depth, a soldier just taught the bare skills of it will wind up creating what SLA Marshall and others have noted happens most often in combat. In WW2, it was found that most troops actually don't try to kill the enemy as much as might be thought. They find other things to do, often just burning rounds in the general direction of the enemy with little actual intent to kill specific targets. They note the one rifle found at Gettysburg that had been loaded shot on top of shot, 11 times. That doesn't happen by accident.

Instead, there are processes that can be created to increase combat participation to pretty much 100%. It's a generally unnatural thing to kill. There are tricks to override that inclination. Marines and suicide bombers are systematically taught to do that by those tricks. The differences in performance between units that have been exposed to that teaching and those that haven't are pretty stark.
The psychological conditioning would still be part of the "how to" of military training. Technique + psychological conditioning = more effective killers. The "correct" application of that ability, or the difficultly of reconditioning people to "regular life" after their military service is over, are subsequent problems that have to be addressed but are typically of less interest to policy makers.

The psychological inhibition to killing is interesting. Aside from the unwillingness of recruits to fire at the enemy that you've mentioned, I've also read about the effects of execution details employed by both the Germans and Soviets in WW2, and the destructive effect on unit morale and individual effectiveness that this task would have on solders after even the shortest time. And that's among people indoctrinated into a social and political system that devalues human life and praises killing to an unusual degree.

Aside from some small percentage of sociopaths or psychopaths it seems like most human beings are reluctant to actually kill (outside of a fantasy setting), regardless of ideology.
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Enki
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Enki »

Yes, many.

From the guys who killed muggers in the subway to the young Blood who was talked into a drive-by and a dude who was going down for being a serious banger to a dude who was involved in a pretty high profile spree killing.

A number of others who I have probably forgotten.
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Torchwood
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Torchwood »

I must have led a sheltered life, not that I know of. I have known plenty of people who killed in war, however, including my own father, who was a WW2 commando and a rather gentle man, as well as a gentleman.

Athens' four stages of "violentization":


Stage 1 Brutalization: Within this stage, the subject is forced into doing violent acts by a member of their primary group.
Stage 2 Belligerency: In this stage, the subject reinforces his warlike attitude to the situation by a method of different steps. They take personal responsibility to the fact that they started the brutalization stage to begin with. In turn, they feel like they must lash out in order to forget about what they did to begin with. The subject feels like the only way for them to make right to the situation is to keep acting out. With this repeating behavior they get emotionally attached to what they are doing. Because of this emotional attachment, the subject feels like anytime they are provoked, they can end the feeling by continuing the violent acts.
Stage 3 Violent Performances: The subject continues to act out violently and they feel that they get inner confidence by acting like this and that in turn builds their self esteem. With their actions being executed, they feel like they get a knack for it and they incorporate it into their daily activity. In this stage they feel most comfortable with what they are doing and do not feel like they are doing anything wrong. The subject feels like they have gained celebrity status to what they are doing, and within this stage is the defining moment of whether or not they will continue to do what they are doing.
Stage 4 Virulency: Once the subject has made it to this point, they feel like whether or not their fame is notorious or not, they believe it to be a good thing. This stage is also known as the need to show off. They feel like they can move on to bigger and better things if they wanted to and the subject tries to. They have an overcoming feeling of being invincible and that nothing can stop them, so they continue these violent acts. After this stage has been completed they are now considered to be a criminal and there is no stopping the subject to what they may do next.[3]


I would have thought that a distinction must be made between psychopaths (that is, those who do not naturally feel empathy for others) and normal empathic people. For psychopaths it is simply a calculation of whether murder serves their purposes and whether they can get away with it

The key to getting "normals" to kill is surely is getting to see the victim as "other" that is not properly human and not deserving of empathy. That is the basis of military training, as well as getting automatic responses without pausing to think, otherwise your hesitation may mean that you are dead. It is not easy to get most people to kill others. But then, murder is socially unsanctioned killing for which you are yourself killed or severely punished, and war is socially sanctioned for which you get medals.
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Doc
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Re: Ever know a murderer?

Post by Doc »

Yes Double homicide. I found out after his wife had been taking care of my then three year old son for several months.
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