A Question For You World War II Buffs

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A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:26 pm

One of the most inexplicable actions of the whole war is Hitler's declaration of war against the United States.

There are two general answers given for this:

1) The crazy-stupid-psychological answer.

2)It was some sort of ill conceived strategy to appease the Japanese or the German generals, or German honor or he was jus' really really fed up with American supply lines and overestimated his hand.

So my question to you is, is there any alternative theories to the two mentioned above?

I've searched the net, and the 2 above seem the dominant explanations. But the answers provided often read like "just so stories/Hitler wasn't human but a monster" type of answers.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby Nonc Hilaire » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:28 pm

Perhaps the failure of the Business Plot?
BBC documentary:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:39 am

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Perhaps the failure of the Business Plot?
BBC documentary:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot


Thanks for this...I totally forgot about this and it sent me on an info hunt. Unfortunately, I haven't made much headway, having other obligations, but it's as good as any start.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby Mr. Perfect » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:29 am

I'm not a world leading expert of WWII but my understanding was that he was trying to project strength.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby Doc » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:54 am

My death camp surviving college history professor said Hitler was raised on children's books about a silly American cowboy that Hitler's views of the US were based on. He did not take the US seriously. He thought the US was far away and could do little to effect the war.

Also he was counting on Japan to attack Russia if it were allied with the US. Which of course did not happen as the Japanese realized that their hands were already full with the invasion of China and the US.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby Endovelico » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:53 pm

I guess Hitler expected the US to declare war on Germany anyway, and taking the lead was his way to say he wasn't afraid. It changed nothing and made him feel better...
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby kmich » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:08 am

Dec 11, 1941: Germany declares war on the United States.
On this day, Adolf Hitler declares war on the United States, bringing America, which had been neutral, into the European conflict.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor surprised even Germany. Although Hitler had made an oral agreement with his Axis partner Japan that Germany would join a war against the United States, he was uncertain as to how the war would be engaged. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor answered that question. On December 8, Japanese Ambassador Oshima went to German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop to nail the Germans down on a formal declaration of war against America. Von Ribbentrop stalled for time; he knew that Germany was under no obligation to do this under the terms of the Tripartite Pact, which promised help if Japan was attacked, but not if Japan was the aggressor. Von Ribbentrop feared that the addition of another antagonist, the United States, would overwhelm the German war effort.

But Hitler thought otherwise. He was convinced that the United States would soon beat him to the punch and declare war on Germany. The U.S. Navy was already attacking German U-boats, and Hitler despised Roosevelt for his repeated verbal attacks against his Nazi ideology. He also believed that Japan was much stronger than it was, that once it had defeated the United States, it would turn and help Germany defeat Russia. So at 3:30 p.m. (Berlin time) on December 11, the German charge d'affaires in Washington handed American Secretary of State Cordell Hull a copy of the declaration of war.

That very same day, Hitler addressed the Reichstag to defend the declaration. The failure of the New Deal, argued Hitler, was the real cause of the war, as President Roosevelt, supported by plutocrats and Jews, attempted to cover up for the collapse of his economic agenda. "First he incites war, then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war," declared Hitler-and the Reichstag leaped to their feet in thunderous applause.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby Endovelico » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:47 am

kmich wrote:Dec 11, 1941: Germany declares war on the United States.
On this day, Adolf Hitler declares war on the United States, bringing America, which had been neutral, into the European conflict.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor surprised even Germany. Although Hitler had made an oral agreement with his Axis partner Japan that Germany would join a war against the United States, he was uncertain as to how the war would be engaged. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor answered that question. On December 8, Japanese Ambassador Oshima went to German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop to nail the Germans down on a formal declaration of war against America. Von Ribbentrop stalled for time; he knew that Germany was under no obligation to do this under the terms of the Tripartite Pact, which promised help if Japan was attacked, but not if Japan was the aggressor. Von Ribbentrop feared that the addition of another antagonist, the United States, would overwhelm the German war effort.

But Hitler thought otherwise. He was convinced that the United States would soon beat him to the punch and declare war on Germany. The U.S. Navy was already attacking German U-boats, and Hitler despised Roosevelt for his repeated verbal attacks against his Nazi ideology. He also believed that Japan was much stronger than it was, that once it had defeated the United States, it would turn and help Germany defeat Russia. So at 3:30 p.m. (Berlin time) on December 11, the German charge d'affaires in Washington handed American Secretary of State Cordell Hull a copy of the declaration of war.

That very same day, Hitler addressed the Reichstag to defend the declaration. The failure of the New Deal, argued Hitler, was the real cause of the war, as President Roosevelt, supported by plutocrats and Jews, attempted to cover up for the collapse of his economic agenda. "First he incites war, then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war," declared Hitler-and the Reichstag leaped to their feet in thunderous applause.


Hitler may have been partially right. The war did more for the US economy than the whole New Deal...
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby Doc » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:32 pm

Endovelico wrote:
kmich wrote:Dec 11, 1941: Germany declares war on the United States.
On this day, Adolf Hitler declares war on the United States, bringing America, which had been neutral, into the European conflict.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor surprised even Germany. Although Hitler had made an oral agreement with his Axis partner Japan that Germany would join a war against the United States, he was uncertain as to how the war would be engaged. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor answered that question. On December 8, Japanese Ambassador Oshima went to German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop to nail the Germans down on a formal declaration of war against America. Von Ribbentrop stalled for time; he knew that Germany was under no obligation to do this under the terms of the Tripartite Pact, which promised help if Japan was attacked, but not if Japan was the aggressor. Von Ribbentrop feared that the addition of another antagonist, the United States, would overwhelm the German war effort.

But Hitler thought otherwise. He was convinced that the United States would soon beat him to the punch and declare war on Germany. The U.S. Navy was already attacking German U-boats, and Hitler despised Roosevelt for his repeated verbal attacks against his Nazi ideology. He also believed that Japan was much stronger than it was, that once it had defeated the United States, it would turn and help Germany defeat Russia. So at 3:30 p.m. (Berlin time) on December 11, the German charge d'affaires in Washington handed American Secretary of State Cordell Hull a copy of the declaration of war.

That very same day, Hitler addressed the Reichstag to defend the declaration. The failure of the New Deal, argued Hitler, was the real cause of the war, as President Roosevelt, supported by plutocrats and Jews, attempted to cover up for the collapse of his economic agenda. "First he incites war, then falsifies the causes, then odiously wraps himself in a cloak of Christian hypocrisy and slowly but surely leads mankind to war," declared Hitler-and the Reichstag leaped to their feet in thunderous applause.


Hitler may have been partially right. The war did more for the US economy than the whole New Deal...


While progresses and their theories of Eugenics did more for Hitler and the Nazis than the war did.....
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:18 am

That may very well be the answer. Hitler and other senior party men were not exactly strategic geniuses.And "the shoot the other guy before he shoots you" strategy fits very well. But my problem with it is that we now know Hitler&co were very frightened by direct US conflict. For example, Hitler laid out his thoughts on the matter in his unpublished second book. He essentially says war with the US would be a disaster and loss, and it would take Nazi Germany decades to challenge the US. I think he estimated the 1980s for the conflict. He also intimates that his goal was to prepare Germany for it, and his goals in what become the 2nd world war were to set the table.

I know I've seen other similar sentiments from the Pre-war Nazis, which is why the 180 doesn't quite register for me unless one starts imagining Hitler&co conceding any chance at victory in exchange for maximum carnage.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby Doc » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:28 am

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:That may very well be the answer. Hitler and other senior party men were not exactly strategic geniuses.And "the shoot the other guy before he shoots you" strategy fits very well. But my problem with it is that we now know Hitler&co were very frightened by direct US conflict. For example, Hitler laid out his thoughts on the matter in his unpublished second book. He essentially says war with the US would be a disaster and loss, and it would take Nazi Germany decades to challenge the US. I think he estimated the 1980s for the conflict. He also intimates that his goal was to prepare Germany for it, and his goals in what become the 2nd world war were to set the table.

I know I've seen other similar sentiments from the Pre-war Nazis, which is why the 180 doesn't quite register for me unless one starts imagining Hitler&co conceding any chance at victory in exchange for maximum carnage.


You mean like putting off invading the Soviet Union until late summer and giving the invading German troops only summer uniforms to wear. Heading for major cities instead of the oil fields in the south? You mean that kinda genius? Or invading then instead of a later date because Hitler was sure he was going to die young so better to lead Germany to victory while he was still alive? OR Hitler the genius insisting that the Allies were going to invade France at Calais?

Hitler was a brilliant political campaigner. He wasn't much of a general. Even though he thought he was.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby YMix » Sat May 16, 2015 7:53 am

“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:48 am

YMix wrote:


Thanks, this was really interesting.
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby NapLajoieonSteroids » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:00 am

Would it be right to say that the book about the war will only be closed once the remaining classified documents in Allied hands [or maybe some uncovered Axis documentation] comes to light?
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Re: A Question For You World War II Buffs

Postby YMix » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:00 am

Doc wrote:Heading for major cities instead of the oil fields in the south? You mean that kinda genius?


That's not a good assessment. First of all, the Germans could not send all their troops south and ignore the rest of Russia. That would have simply invited a counterthrust directly into German territory. Second, the Germans did send an army corps south, but it moved far slower in the mountains compared to the open terrain in the north. I've read the war diary of a Romanian officer who had led the 3rd Mountain Battalion in Moldova-Crimea-Kuban campaign and he was impressed with the fortifications built by the Russians in those hills and mountains. According to him, the Germans did not have enough troops to defend the coastline (what else is new?) and so the Russians could easily send units in boats at night to infiltrate and cut off the supply lines of the advancing German and Romanian soldiers. At one point, the Russians landed almost a division near a former palace used by the Germans as a hospital for their soldiers. Since the hospital was almost unguarded, the Russians slaughtered all the German wounded and had the perfect opportunity to entrench themselves across the nearby highway and block all traffic for days, if not weeks. However, the soldiers celebrated their victory by getting rip-roaring drunk (in true Russian fashion) and were wiped out by the German units hastily sent to their location.

Also, the Russians had plenty of supplies to hold out in the south. Hitler and the OKW tried to do something about that, but their attempt is known today as Stalingrad.
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