Firearms and other Weapons

[Simple Minded]

I'm amazed at how prevalent this extremely expensive hobby is.

Not just a hobby buddy, but excellent investments. I don't know anyone who ever lost money buying and selling guns.

Anyone ever seen any stats on the number of guns in America?

[Enki]

I'm amazed at how prevalent this extremely expensive hobby is.

Not just a hobby buddy, but excellent investments. I don't know anyone who ever lost money buying and selling guns.

The resale is that good?

Anyone ever seen any stats on the number of guns in America?

I've seen it at around 400,000,000

[cincinnatus]

I'm amazed at how prevalent this extremely expensive hobby is.

Lots of hobbies are expensive. Golf with $550 drivers, $1000 irons and $200 putters and $15 for a sleeve of 3 balls. Skiing requires expensive equipment and access to the trails. A decent guitar or other musical equipment will set you back either hundreds or thousands depending on if you progress and want better equipment. Video game systems and games run up after a couple of dozen games. Ham radio guys spend thousands on HF radios, various antennas and power supplies and vhf/uhf handheld transceivers.

[Demon of Undoing]

There are quite a lot that don't see it as a hobby at all. The hardest- core hunters I know do not go to the range for giggles. If they aren't there to sight in for the season, they are trying to dial in another tool that makes the hunt go better. They are no more shooting hobbyists than a guy that makes cabinetry is a hammer hobbyist.

Even though it may look like I run stuff purely for giggles, as it may seem way out there to a few parties, I'm doing it/ have it for the same reason I carry a pressure dressing, Ace bandage and a safety pin in a ziploc in my bag. Among other things. The past couple of months have seen my full embrace of the Black Bag of Tricks concept. It pays to have options.

[Enki]

I'm amazed at how prevalent this extremely expensive hobby is.

Lots of hobbies are expensive. Golf with $550 drivers, $1000 irons and $200 putters and $15 for a sleeve of 3 balls. Skiing requires expensive equipment and access to the trails. A decent guitar or other musical equipment will set you back either hundreds or thousands depending on if you progress and want better equipment. Video game systems and games run up after a couple of dozen games. Ham radio guys spend thousands on HF radios, various antennas and power supplies and vhf/uhf handheld transceivers.

Sure, but usually people who play golf are wealthy or at least upper-middle class. You meet a lot of blue collar folks who have a lot of guns. They must spend a large proportion of their income on guns. If I buy a video game for 50 bucks, the standard gameplay is between 6-12 hours for the game. If I replay it, I can play for a long time. Shooting for 12 hours costs more than $ 50 with any serious calibre rifle.

[Enki]

There are quite a lot that don't see it as a hobby at all. The hardest- core hunters I know do not go to the range for giggles. If they aren't there to sight in for the season, they are trying to dial in another tool that makes the hunt go better. They are no more shooting hobbyists than a guy that makes cabinetry is a hammer hobbyist.

Even though it may look like I run stuff purely for giggles, as it may seem way out there to a few parties, I'm doing it/ have it for the same reason I carry a pressure dressing, Ace bandage and a safety pin in a ziploc in my bag. Among other things. The past couple of months have seen my full embrace of the Black Bag of Tricks concept. It pays to have options.

Absolutely, but I grew up in New Mexico, I know that most people there are not avid hunters and still have the massive arsenal.

[Demon of Undoing]

Sure, what you describe is indeed pretty normal. I was pointing out the exceptions to that tendency. Those exceptions are maybe 50% of the gun owning crowd, though. They aren't constantly looking to get a new widget or buy another thousand rounds. They get what they need, work it enough to become familiar, and then all but put it away.

The real hobbyists can indeed spend thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars in a year, if not properly restrained. I won't lie; while my indulgence definitely had a limited scope, it was intense. Most of the best three income years I ever had ( pre marriage) was spent with virtually nothing to show for it except a ton of range time and about that much empty brass ( probably more). But that was literally the only extracurricular thing I did that cost me money. Besides intoxicants and motorcycles.

Ah, youth.

[cincinnatus]

Sure, but usually people who play golf are wealthy or at least upper-middle class. You meet a lot of blue collar folks who have a lot of guns. They must spend a large proportion of their income on guns. If I buy a video game for 50 bucks, the standard gameplay is between 6-12 hours for the game. If I replay it, I can play for a long time. Shooting for 12 hours costs more than $ 50 with any serious calibre rifle.

Nope. Go to the 'burbs and look who is playing on a city course vice the folks you describe at private country clubs. Lots of folks with multi skim hues and levels of dress taking up the links. I dabbled for a while, then decided I preferred other pursuits. Personally, I am mystified at the money the poor and working class throw down on alcohol and drugs, but hey, to each their own.

As for shooting, it's not just the finger-pull bang-bang time. It's also the joy of learning to disasemble, clean and care for the internal components, then expertly reassemble. And collecting the brass, learning how to cut your costs by 60% by reloading yourself. The marksmanship practice, skeet shooting and hunting get the glory, but the rest add several hours of time to the shooting.

(and what the hell, if this lavender goes off the rails, knowing the firearms will be a valuable skill, vice hitting a solid driver off the tee).

[Marcus]

. . You meet a lot of blue collar folks who have a lot of guns. . .

Profiling, Tinker, or just stereotyping?

[Demon of Undoing]

Is the statement materially wrong?

[Mr. Perfect]

Sure, but usually people who play golf are wealthy or at least upper-middle class.

Crazy talk. Really, really crazy talk.

Shooting for 12 hours costs more than $ 50 with any serious calibre rifle.

Way, way more than $50. Way more.

[Demon of Undoing]

It is very easy to spend $1-2k on a handgun. As easily, $3-4k on a rifle. AR ammo for duty use ( premium, not that horribly ineffective military surplus stuff ) will eclipse $200 for a hundred rounds, with XM193 right at that for 500. My pistol ammo is abbot a dollar a round right now. A brick of 550 in .22 is about $14.

Having said that, you can spend half that in almost every category and do plenty well enough. To become decently proficient takes ( instruction and) about 500 rounds of each type, but that's only going to get you to " don't kill yourself/ decent chance of killing something you want shot" level of ability. Target practice is to gunfighting what scales are to improvisational jazz.

[Mr. Perfect]

You can have a guy that owns a Taurus 9 that shoots here and there and then someone with half a dozen custom LR nailers at 5k a pop, plus ARs, shotguns, handguns, state of the art reloading rigs, and all points in between.

But I haven't the foggiest what this has to do with anything.

[Demon of Undoing]

You can have a guy that owns a Taurus 9 that shoots here and there and then someone with half a dozen custom LR nailers at 5k a pop, plus ARs, shotguns, handguns, state of the art reloading rigs, and all points in between.

But I haven't the foggiest what this has to do with anything.

Just talkin' guns. They're everywhere.

[Demon of Undoing]

I just had a thought. Run.


In most states including mine, black powder firearms are regulated differently and more loosely. Between that fact and the fact that I'm sick of people running around with $ 1500 concealment guns, thinking anything less will get you killed, I'm wondering.

I'm wondering if I ought not get one of those finish- yourself revolver kits, a 3" 1851 Navy in .36 caliber. With soft cast ball, hotloaded, low round- count Pyrodex charges, greased shut, it becomes practical. Well, at least, as practical as a snub .38. Plus, at contact distance, they will be not just shot but slightly aflame. Five rounds of cap and ball will make for a sizable smoke screen indoors, whereby I can advance to contact or ninja withdraw. Ballistics should be somewhere south of a .38 S&W ( note: NOT a .38 Spl), but that's not much of a problem for this platform. You can beat someone to death with a '51 Navy. A snub, not so much.

Maybe just for social commentary, I will " tacticool" it up. Give it a black Teflon finish, Novak low- profile Trijicons, custom carbon fiber grips, set up the cylinders for quick change with turned QD pins.

Oh, yeah. I gotta do this.

[Mr. Perfect]

Well I tell you and it ain't braggin', I belong to probably the best shooting facility/club in my state. It ain't bragging because it's only about 8 miles from the house, and it was close so I joined. I didn't know what how good it was until later. Just got lucky.

At any rate, we have serious competitive shooters that compete at Camp Perry and a junior Hi Power program that is competitive nationally. PDs beg to use our range and we only let in who we want. I got out of a traffic incident last year on that alone. Point being I used to shoot unbelievable amounts of ammo, maybe over $1,000 a month for awhile between my brother and another buddy and myself, but shooting that much is a lot of work and I shoot now way less than I used to.

But there are some dudes I used to shoot next to alot when I go down there now are still always there like they used to be, and you have to scratch your head a little bit.

The LR game is a rabbit hole you can go down and never get out of, chasing the perfect rifle, the perfect caliber, the perfect load, the perfect technique and so forth, all just to go from 1 moa to a little under 1/2 moa. We came to that realization and the interest sort of died out a little bit. Got into more practical things, and you spend more time figuring and tinkering than shooting.

Having said that I think this summer we are in for an epic powder burn. My shotgun collection seems to have finally matured and we're going the direction of 3 gun competitive style shooting, probably among the more practical things you can train for.

And having said that I am getting back into the LR game I think. The issue was I have a perfectly good Savage 30-06 we trained on, can shoot 1 moa often enough, so why do I need to spend $4-5 grand on a slightly more powerful slightly flatter shooting 7mm dragon? Not real get ROI. But the thinking now is a change in attitude, that is instead of looking at it like that look at it as perfecting a shooting discipline. That led to the thinking of getting a 6mm BR, scary accurate round and an easy shooter. Which led to the thinking that since it is a project gun may as well build it myself, what I can, and take those skills and apply it to the 7mm dragon when the time comes. Because the time will come eventually.

The point being that whatever your budget may be you really need to think strategically about what your interests are, what your needs are, what is practicial for your situation because it always seems to be changing.

Are you guys watching that doomsday prepper show? What a blast that is. Crazy and brilliant. So now we're looking at weapons caches, cause you never know. I mean look what they did to Bob Lee.

It's a lot of fun.

[Marcus]

. . a 3" 1851 Navy in .36 caliber. With soft cast ball, hotloaded, low round- count Pyrodex charges, greased shut, it becomes practical. Well, at least, as practical as a snub .38. Plus, at contact distance, they will be not just shot but slightly aflame. Five rounds of cap and ball . .

Poor Jeb Stuart had his ticket punched by a Yankee's .44 Army.

Also, you can safely load all six chambers because the hammer will lay down on the cylinder between the capped nipples.

And speaking of Lee, if you stand on Seminary Ridge and look across the field where he sent Pickett, you gotta think Lee was crazy. What was it? . . 15,000 men went up that hill and 7,000 staggered back?

[Demon of Undoing]

. . a 3" 1851 Navy in .36 caliber. With soft cast ball, hotloaded, low round- count Pyrodex charges, greased shut, it becomes practical. Well, at least, as practical as a snub .38. Plus, at contact distance, they will be not just shot but slightly aflame. Five rounds of cap and ball . .

Poor Jeb Stuart had his ticket punched by a Yankee's .44 Army.

Also, you can safely load all six chambers because the hammer will lay down on the cylinder between the capped nipples.

And speaking of Lee, if you stand on Seminary Ridge and look across the field where he sent Pickett, you gotta think Lee was crazy. What was it? . . 15,000 men went up that hill and 7,000 staggered back?

I have marveled at the psychology of that and other charges for many a year. I might go complete berserk in a comparatively narrow band, but I simply can not muster a part of me that would be capable of that degree of foolishness. I would turn on my own officers.

[cdgt]

Of the guns I currently have, I've spent $500 on one gun. Once. I may have approached that with one other gun before (a 7" 10mm Stainless Steel Auto) but I forget that price. But everything I currently have cost under $500, most in the $300 range, several under that.

If I succumb to the Savage Hog Hunter, that will be my 2nd $500 gun. If I get a Saiga .308, that will be my third.

I hoping to get a Glock 23 as a police trade in somewhere in the low $300's. My Ruger SR22 was at $300, same as my Sub-2000. It wasn't for nothing that when I got back into the handgun scene that I bought a .22LR first. Cheap (relatively) ammo. The first day I put about 250 rounds downrange in about 40mins and thought nothing of that expense. I would think long and hard before doing that with a Glock 23 or the Sub-2000.

Point is, you can assemble a decent armory (if you forego the sexy stuff and focus on utility) pretty cheap. I could build a decent centerfire bolt rifle, pump shotgun and .22 rifle collection--with ammo for each--at WallyWorld for about a grand. Handguns, well, I'm hoping to get my entire "collection" (SR22 and G23) for around $700. For me, the Sub-2000 is essentially a handgun for the ladies in household (and fun for me and my sons ). The Marlin 1894 in .44Mag (my current $500 gun) is a luxury item, really. A real handy luxury, though...

But, if you do the basic longgun collection, then mainly shoot the .22LR's, shoot 12ga target loads a bit, and sight in the centerfire rifles once or twice a year, it isn't that expensive. And the guns will pretty much hold their value--if you buy value.

[cdgt]

I just had a thought. Run.


In most states including mine, black powder firearms are regulated differently and more loosely. Between that fact and the fact that I'm sick of people running around with $ 1500 concealment guns, thinking anything less will get you killed, I'm wondering.

I'm wondering if I ought not get one of those finish- yourself revolver kits, a 3" 1851 Navy in .36 caliber. With soft cast ball, hotloaded, low round- count Pyrodex charges, greased shut, it becomes practical. Well, at least, as practical as a snub .38. Plus, at contact distance, they will be not just shot but slightly aflame. Five rounds of cap and ball will make for a sizable smoke screen indoors, whereby I can advance to contact or ninja withdraw. Ballistics should be somewhere south of a .38 S&W ( note: NOT a .38 Spl), but that's not much of a problem for this platform. You can beat someone to death with a '51 Navy. A snub, not so much.

Maybe just for social commentary, I will " tacticool" it up. Give it a black Teflon finish, Novak low- profile Trijicons, custom carbon fiber grips, set up the cylinders for quick change with turned QD pins.

Oh, yeah. I gotta do this.

The comparison to a snub .38 is about right. Only difference would be reliability of ignition. (Advantage: .38 snub.) But it would make a better club if there was a misfire.

You gotta figure a way to hang a picatinny rail off it somehow if truly want tacticool. Maybe put a laser sight on it.

[cdgt]

... If I buy a video game for 50 bucks, the standard gameplay is between 6-12 hours for the game. If I replay it, I can play for a long time. Shooting for 12 hours costs more than $ 50 with any serious calibre rifle.

^ Did I just see video games compared to recreational shooting?

What's that video game gonna be worth in a generation?

My kids and grandkids will inherit and use my guns. The ammo, sure it's gone. Time shooting spent with the kids (and eventually--not too soon, I pray, grandkids)? Priceless.

• Those "low income" arsenal folks may well be shooting their grand-daddy's guns.

[cincinnatus]

... If I buy a video game for 50 bucks, the standard gameplay is between 6-12 hours for the game. If I replay it, I can play for a long time. Shooting for 12 hours costs more than $ 50 with any serious calibre rifle.

^ Did I just see video games compared to recreational shooting?

What's that video game gonna be worth in a generation?

My kids and grandkids will inherit and use my guns. The ammo, sure it's gone. Time shooting spent with the kids (and eventually--not too soon, I pray, grandkids)? Priceless.

• Those "low income" arsenal folks may well be shooting their grand-daddy's guns.

Sorry, my fault on bringing that into the discussion.

[Enki]

... If I buy a video game for 50 bucks, the standard gameplay is between 6-12 hours for the game. If I replay it, I can play for a long time. Shooting for 12 hours costs more than $ 50 with any serious calibre rifle.

^ Did I just see video games compared to recreational shooting?

What's that video game gonna be worth in a generation?

My kids and grandkids will inherit and use my guns. The ammo, sure it's gone. Time shooting spent with the kids (and eventually--not too soon, I pray, grandkids)? Priceless.

• Those "low income" arsenal folks may well be shooting their grand-daddy's guns.

Time spent doing anything with the kids is priceless. But I wasn't the one who brought up the original comparison of the price of video games to the price of guns. Lots of studies coming out about the benefits of video games on cognition, but I won't hijack the thread to talk about those. In either case, for most people both are an impractical hobby that serves no real productive purpose.

The video game might not be worth much on resale, but neither is a rifle with a tired barrel. And I was more comparing the video games to the ammunition, which is worth the value of its weight in copper after you've fired it. If you're buying ammunition for its value as a commodity that's a different thing entirely.

[Typhoon]

I think that this thread should be about the specific discussion of "Firearms and other Weapons" from a mainly technical + use perspective.

I also think that the philosophical + social + cultural aspects of gun ownership or not belongs in another separate thread.

Would like to hear the views of the contributors on splitting off such posts to a separate philosophy thread.

[noddy]

I could build a decent centerfire bolt rifle, pump shotgun and .22 rifle collection--with ammo for each--at WallyWorld for about a grand.

thats exactly the gun collection id have, i dont like pistols which is quite possibly because im long limbed and wiry and waving things around at arms length is fighting physics.

a 303 or simmilar for properly dead from a distance, 12 gauge for properly dead up close and a 22 hornet for sport and vermin.

expensive! buahahha, not in terms of the hot cars many of my peers waste their wages on and probably on par with my photography fetish.. i could spend 10's of thousands if i didnt have a housing slupring it all up.