Firearms and other Weapons

[cdgt]

I missed this sub-forum. Gonna try and stay just here. For real this time.

Mr. P., I tend to agree on the handgun selection, but would go further and say that the .40 is superior to the .357 alternatives in ammo availablity and cost.

I would add that I rather like the new Ruger SR22. I was agonizing between the Walther (size, weight) and Ruger Mk series (durability), and the SR22 solved my problem. Granted, durability on the SR22 is TBD, but I gave them lots of extra credit for the name Ruger. So far, 250 rounds in about 40 minutes, me happy.

Savage has this thing called a Hog Hunter. Go here, and under Specialty Series, click 11/111 Hog Hunter. My interest is in the .308 flavor. It could be a tad lighter for my tastes, but I can probably effect that myself. Only about 3" longer than my Marlin 1894, with lots more reach. MRSP $513. It is tempting me sorely, moving up my priority scheme and threatening the top spot in the "next guns list" currently held by a Glock 23.

I still lust for a KelTec RFB, but as a practical matter, I'll probably settle for a Saiga .308 for my first (and only?*) semi-auto centerfire rifle.

With the Savage, Glock 23, and the Saiga(s) added to the family, I think I'll be done, except for doubling up in each category. (Two is one, one is none.) The spectre of an Obama re-election seems to be spurring yet a newer gun / ammo shortage. Witness Ruger's inability to accept new orders. Bad news for me, still in acquisition mode, but Obama has managed to stimulate one part of the economy.

• * I'm thinking maybe, maybe a Saiga in 5.56/.223 in case I am assaulted by mutant zombie ... poodles.

[Typhoon]

I missed this sub-forum. Gonna try and stay just here. For real this time. . . .

You're, of course, welcome to post anywhere on the OTNOT forum.

[cincinnatus]

I missed this sub-forum. Gonna try and stay just here. For real this time.

Mr. P., I tend to agree on the handgun selection, but would go further and say that the .40 is superior to the .357 alternatives in ammo availablity and cost.

I would add that I rather like the new Ruger SR22. I was agonizing between the Walther (size, weight) and Ruger Mk series (durability), and the SR22 solved my problem. Granted, durability on the SR22 is TBD, but I gave them lots of extra credit for the name Ruger. So far, 250 rounds in about 40 minutes, me happy.

Savage has this thing called a Hog Hunter. Go here, and under Specialty Series, click 11/111 Hog Hunter. My interest is in the .308 flavor. It could be a tad lighter for my tastes, but I can probably effect that myself. Only about 3" longer than my Marlin 1894, with lots more reach. MRSP $513. It is tempting me sorely, moving up my priority scheme and threatening the top spot in the "next guns list" currently held by a Glock 23.

I still lust for a KelTec RFB, but as a practical matter, I'll probably settle for a Saiga .308 for my first (and only?*) semi-auto centerfire rifle.

With the Savage, Glock 23, and the Saiga(s) added to the family, I think I'll be done, except for doubling up in each category. (Two is one, one is none.) The spectre of an Obama re-election seems to be spurring yet a newer gun / ammo shortage. Witness Ruger's inability to accept new orders. Bad news for me, still in acquisition mode, but Obama has managed to stimulate one part of the economy.

• * I'm thinking maybe, maybe a Saiga in 5.56/.223 in case I am assaulted by mutant zombie ... poodles.

So, did you get tired of Waxxy sh!tting all over the Guns thread back at the old place? Good to see you here (even if only here).

FWIW, I'm looking to swindle a Remington 870 pump shotgun (probably 20-gauge so my wife could shoot it if needed), and my one semi-auto desire, a Springfield XD-40 Sub-Compact. Then, a Remington 700 .308. Problem is, la moglie already says I have too many. I'm trying the "well, that POS little Beretta Bobcat is your's 'cause you won it, and the little Taurus .38 Special doesn't really count" argument. If none of that works, I'll just send her and the daughter to Italy in July, say I can't go due to work, and make some acquisitions.

[cdgt]

So, did you get tired of Waxxy sh!tting all over the Guns thread back at the old place?

Yes. Not only in that thread, obviously, but the tolerance for that little bird making droppings everywhere is amazing. I "accidentally" put a guns post in the "priestly adorational dooma-flicky thread" to try and make a point.

Good to see you here (even if only here).

Thanks. I may vent over there from time to time, but mostly I'm too busy to keep up with another forum. But this thread and the folks in it are certainly worth it.

FWIW, I'm looking to swindle a Remington 870 pump shotgun (probably 20-gauge so my wife could shoot it if needed), and my one semi-auto desire, a Springfield XD-40 Sub-Compact. Then, a Remington 700 .308. Problem is, la moglie already says I have too many. I'm trying the "well, that POS little Beretta Bobcat is your's 'cause you won it, and the little Taurus .38 Special doesn't really count" argument. If none of that works, I'll just send her and the daughter to Italy in July, say I can't go due to work, and make some acquisitions.

Sounds interesting. From my perspective, most women-folk can mostly handle light 12ga target loads for practice, weapon familiarity, etc. And it's not like there's a huge savings in ammo costs. For castle defense purposes, full-power loads can be employed--and under the adrenaline rush of an actual "situation," I suspect the marginal recoil won't be even noticed. The marginal payload might even be ... appreciated. I don't know if you have any other shotguns in 12ga, but if you did, I wouldn't add a 20ga to the stable. Bad things happen when 20ga ammo gets mixed up with a 12ga gun. But you doubtless knew that. I do have a couple Rossi 20ga barrels (bought them for the .22LR and .243 Win barrels), but they're stuffed somewhere and the one partial box of ammo I have for it is more or less hidden to minimize mixups.

I don't know anything about the XD-40 you're looking at. The Glock 23 is probably the smallest .40 I can shoot. The ring finger of my strong hand is mostly there for decoration, no grip strength in it at all. I can't throw a proper football spiral. (Playing volleyball, went to spike, ring finger lined up with opponent's wrist, middle bone in the finger ended up on top of the next one down. Pulled it back out, iced, that was it. To make a fist, my little finger comes on top and pulls that ring finger to the palm.) So, if I can't get my little finger on the grip, I'm really only holding the gun with my middle finger. Probably explains why I can't hit the broad side of a barn with a single action revolver. But I'm hoping to find an affordable police-trade-in Glock 23 in the mid to low $300's. Mag and ammo compatible with my Sub-2000.

I dunno why, but while I love Remington shotguns, I was never a 700 kind of guy. I did have, briefly a 788 in 6mm Rem., which I kinda wish I kept. But the darn magazine came out right at the one-handed carry balance point. I tend to think Mauser style actions, which has left me in the Ruger / Savage camp, more or less. I with that Savage Hog Hunter had an 18", instead of 20" threaded barrel, but for $500 MSRP, I can't get too picky.

[Typhoon]

[cdgt]

The pic didn't come through. Here is a link.

I assume you were admiring the rainbow?

[Typhoon]

The pic didn't come through. Here is a link.

Odd that I can view it, but thanks.

I assume you were admiring the rainbow?

You assume correctly.

That and wondering when the unicorns would show up.

What is the firearm used to generate the rainbow?

[cincinnatus]

Sounds interesting. From my perspective, most women-folk can mostly handle light 12ga target loads for practice, weapon familiarity, etc. And it's not like there's a huge savings in ammo costs. For castle defense purposes, full-power loads can be employed--and under the adrenaline rush of an actual "situation," I suspect the marginal recoil won't be even noticed. The marginal payload might even be ... appreciated. I don't know if you have any other shotguns in 12ga, but if you did, I wouldn't add a 20ga to the stable. Bad things happen when 20ga ammo gets mixed up with a 12ga gun. But you doubtless knew that. I do have a couple Rossi 20ga barrels (bought them for the .22LR and .243 Win barrels), but they're stuffed somewhere and the one partial box of ammo I have for it is more or less hidden to minimize mixups.

I don't know anything about the XD-40 you're looking at. The Glock 23 is probably the smallest .40 I can shoot. The ring finger of my strong hand is mostly there for decoration, no grip strength in it at all. I can't throw a proper football spiral. (Playing volleyball, went to spike, ring finger lined up with opponent's wrist, middle bone in the finger ended up on top of the next one down. Pulled it back out, iced, that was it. To make a fist, my little finger comes on top and pulls that ring finger to the palm.) So, if I can't get my little finger on the grip, I'm really only holding the gun with my middle finger. Probably explains why I can't hit the broad side of a barn with a single action revolver. But I'm hoping to find an affordable police-trade-in Glock 23 in the mid to low $300's. Mag and ammo compatible with my Sub-2000.

I dunno why, but while I love Remington shotguns, I was never a 700 kind of guy. I did have, briefly a 788 in 6mm Rem., which I kinda wish I kept. But the darn magazine came out right at the one-handed carry balance point. I tend to think Mauser style actions, which has left me in the Ruger / Savage camp, more or less. I with that Savage Hog Hunter had an 18", instead of 20" threaded barrel, but for $500 MSRP, I can't get too picky.

CD,
I have almost nil experience with shotguns. I shot an over-under 12-gauge when I was around 8 or 9, and after I got off the ground decided I'd had enough of that! I was basing the 20-gauge off this review: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html

"The formulae I've been shown by the ammo companies I have dealt with for decades as one or another kind of gun editor for gun magazines show that the average 20-gauge shotgun load (five-eighths of an ounce of lead) will deliver to the shooter's body via his or her shoulder only 55% of the recoil as a one-ounce charge of lead from a 20-gauge. Yet the lead delivered on target at the same velocity from a 20-gauge is 62.5% of the payload brought to impact by the one-ounce charge from a 12-gauge. Did I mention math was my worst subject? OK...but even I can figure out that 55% of the debit in return for 62.5% of the credit is a 7.5% better deal. "

Anyway, I figured if I was just going to get one, a 20-gauge would be good enough to send the average 2-legged predator running, and also still allow using for small game. As for the 700, it is expensive (~$600-700, without optics). I saw a Marlin XTVH .308 for half the price (4+1 round). Probably end up going that route and saving the $300 for a good scope.

I like the Glock, but I'm chickensh!t and want more of a safety. I still may just buy a Walther PPK because I always wanted one, but if I'm only getting one semi-auto, I figure go with a 40-cal vice a 380.

'Course, I'm getting reassigned to D.C. in December, and I may have issues with my little armory there.

[Marcus]

. . I'm looking to swindle a Remington 870 pump shotgun (probably 20-gauge so my wife could shoot it if needed), . .

I bought my wife a used, Mossberg .20 ga. pump at a flea market in Texas, had a gunsmith cut the barrel to 20', and put a hot orange sight on it. My wife feels comfortable with it for home protection. The gunsmith advised loading it with low-brass # 7-1/2 shot, enough to change someone's mind at a distance and still lethal at close range.

[cdgt]

CD,
I have almost nil experience with shotguns. I shot an over-under 12-gauge when I was around 8 or 9, and after I got off the ground decided I'd had enough of that! I was basing the 20-gauge off this review: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html

"The formulae I've been shown by the ammo companies I have dealt with for decades as one or another kind of gun editor for gun magazines show that the average 20-gauge shotgun load (five-eighths of an ounce of lead) will deliver to the shooter's body via his or her shoulder only 55% of the recoil as a one-ounce charge of lead from a 20-gauge. Yet the lead delivered on target at the same velocity from a 20-gauge is 62.5% of the payload brought to impact by the one-ounce charge from a 12-gauge. Did I mention math was my worst subject? OK...but even I can figure out that 55% of the debit in return for 62.5% of the credit is a 7.5% better deal. "

I've got a ton of respect for Ayoob. That said, it strikes me that the red should read 12-gauge. Maybe editing was his second worst subject. (It's in the original at the link, too.)

Anyway, I figured if I was just going to get one, a 20-gauge would be good enough to send the average 2-legged predator running, and also still allow using for small game.

To me, it all depends on what you want to the gun to do. If you were looking to get a gun for your wife to go dove hunting, wherein she might shoot upwards of 80-100 rounds in an afternoon or more, by all means, get a 20ga. Heck, you might appreciate using a 20ga yourself as well. (My 12ga has left me black & blue under those conditions--but I haven't done that in years.) But, if it's mostly for two-legged predator control and just an occaisional bushy-tail busting excursion, I'd rather be pumping a full ounce of lead downrange per trigger pull if it came to it--versus 5/8ths of an ounce. I'd practice (and do) with the reduced load stuff, and if I ever need to use it in a serious situation, I suspect recoil will be the least of my concerns. YMMV, of course.

As for the 700, it is expensive (~$600-700, without optics). I saw a Marlin XTVH .308 for half the price (4+1 round). Probably end up going that route and saving the $300 for a good scope.

I'm probably gonna split the difference, go with the Savage Hog Hunter and a medium range 1-5X or so scope.

I like the Glock, but I'm chickensh!t and want more of a safety. I still may just buy a Walther PPK because I always wanted one, but if I'm only getting one semi-auto, I figure go with a 40-cal vice a 380.

Yeah, it's a concern for me, but the mag compatibilty and dead stupid reliability overrides that concern for me.

'Course, I'm getting reassigned to D.C. in December, and I may have issues with my little armory there.

Heh. Well, if you need some storage... no doubt several here might find in their hearts to store a few items for you.

[Marcus]

. . did you get tired of Waxxy sh!tting all over the Guns thread back at the old place? Good to see you here (even if only here). . .

Re: Guns Thread II
by Natasha » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:50 am

Dear members, I recently moved several off-topic posts and a hijack attenpt to the Fight Club; and a Gun Thread post which found itself in the Adoration thread here. Please be advised that further attemps to hijack this thread or the Adoration thread will be deleted by moderation. Do feel free to open an Anti-Guns Thread, or an Anti- Adoration thread if any of you so desire, but leave this thread for the weanpons connoisseurs, and leave the Adorations thread for Christian devotion.

Hijacking is not permitted on any of our boards.

[Marcus]

CD, take a few minutes to check this thread . . the real thing:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/sho ... highlight=

[cdgt]

CD, take a few minutes to check this thread . . the real thing:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/sho ... highlight=

Ahhhh, problem is, I could take more than a few minutes reading that.

And then I realize I can't approach that, much as it appeals. Wife, kids, older parents all conspire.

Given that 2/3rds of my life is now in the past tense, I am looking to make some changes for the final 1/3rd. If I can swing it, the mountains of western NC, southwestern VA or eastern TN are going to have to suffice.

[Demon of Undoing]

I think I may have bought my last firearm, sans two.

I want to get a proper belly gun ( hammerless J frame Smith) for the wife to carry and something for long range/ hunting. Should I ever invest myself in that again, that is. Probably not. Other than that, everything I want to do is taken care of by an XD.45, an M4gery and a Ruger MkII. The Redhawk is a special use only thing and the Model 10 Smith is the wife's.

The Mauser .25 is too small to be considered a real gun. It's a distraction piece until I can close with the knife.

[Antipatros]

Language warning: If you don't want to hear "f*&%" every other word, turn off the sound for the first video.

Dragunov sniper rifle
FiU0NtYbMCQ

Soviet Dragunov Sniper Rifle
egQJiwwmrIw

2 Dragunov rifles, SVD vs Tiger @ 200 yards (183 meters)
wuOWS__AYB4

[cdgt]

Am I the only one who cringed when the guy in the first video rested the gun on barrel and not the forend? Oy.

[Marcus]

Am I the only one who cringed when the guy in the first video rested the gun on barrel and not the forend? Oy.

Didn't register with me, CD. By the way, cruise around that other forum some time . . lots of sub-fora covering all aspects of hunting, shooting, etc., etc., etc. albeit from a game-getting perspective . . don't know how much those guys are into military-type stuff?

[Antipatros]

Am I the only one who cringed when the guy in the first video rested the gun on barrel and not the forend? Oy.

To say nothing of the zip tie holding the receiver together.

[Ibrahim]

How many of you guys would shoot a burglar? Not some maniac coming at you, but a guy trying to get your TV out the window.

Just curious.





In other news, the end of an era:

(Originally from the Ottawa Citizen, info now on wikipedia)

Canadian Rangers are issued the .303 British calibre Lee Enfield No 4 rifle, with each user being provided with 200 rounds of ammunition every year.

...

Owning to the decreasing availability of spare parts, the replacement of the Lee-Enfield rifle had long been expected and in August 2011 after user requirements had been determined, the Canadian Forces officially issued a tender request for a bolt-action rifle compatible with 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester. Approximately 10,000 rifles were to be bought giving the system a service life of about 30 years. The new rifles were to be manufactured under license by Colt Canada and to be in service by 2015.

That was the last Commonwealth unit I'm aware of still using the .303 Lee-Enfield, but no longer. What rifle would you guys bring to the Arctic?

This is what the government is looking for:
http://pubs.drdc.gc.ca/inbasket/Peralta ... _Final.pdf


Note: Canadian Rangers are noting like US Rangers. They are a paramilitary arctic patrol organization, not special forces combat troops.

[Marcus]

How many of you guys would shoot a burglar? Not some maniac coming at you, but a guy trying to get your TV out the window.

The trouble with not killing the fox the first time it raids the henhouse is that the fox is apt to come back again and again and again . . . give him a good dose of birdshot up the ass at the least . .

[Demon of Undoing]

How many of you guys would shoot a burglar? Not some maniac coming at you, but a guy trying to get your TV out the window.

Just curious.





In other news, the end of an era:

(Originally from the Ottawa Citizen, info now on wikipedia)

Canadian Rangers are issued the .303 British calibre Lee Enfield No 4 rifle, with each user being provided with 200 rounds of ammunition every year.

...

Owning to the decreasing availability of spare parts, the replacement of the Lee-Enfield rifle had long been expected and in August 2011 after user requirements had been determined, the Canadian Forces officially issued a tender request for a bolt-action rifle compatible with 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester. Approximately 10,000 rifles were to be bought giving the system a service life of about 30 years. The new rifles were to be manufactured under license by Colt Canada and to be in service by 2015.

That was the last Commonwealth unit I'm aware of still using the .303 Lee-Enfield, but no longer. What rifle would you guys bring to the Arctic?

This is what the government is looking for:
http://pubs.drdc.gc.ca/inbasket/Peralta ... _Final.pdf


Note: Canadian Rangers are noting like US Rangers. They are a paramilitary arctic patrol organization, not special forces combat troops.

If he's occupied with a TV, I'm going to have trouble getting him on the ground without dropping it on him. I'll manage. I'm not killing a guy over that.

In Florida, you can't shoot a guy on the way out of your house. You don't have to parse meanings if you meet him in the act, but if you shoot him over property while he is attempting to leave, you're going down. As well it should be. Unless we are in dire straits( like, we both fight over the last elk carcass) property is worth neither killing or dying.

However, in Texas, if you see a guy running across an open field behind your house, the back door is open and he has your TV in his hands, you can break out a scoped rifle and get a running shot. This may have changed within the last 15 years or so, but I know it was legal as of 1989. Watched the aftereffects of that very situation. At the end, cops shook the homeowner's hand and drove off after the ambulance left. I think they admonished him to run a wet patch through the bore, and that's it.

[cincinnatus]

How many of you guys would shoot a burglar? Not some maniac coming at you, but a guy trying to get your TV out the window.

Just curious.

I am curious...how should one know the burglar is unarmed and harmless? He's broken into my home, disabled the alarm, and clearly has access to the same space my daughter and wife could be without me around if he comes back during the day, or when I'm deployed. Why exactly should he receive the benefit of the doubt as to his good long-term intentions and level of danger? If I knew he was just some poor father down on his luck needing to feed his kids, I'd help him load it in the car. I hate TV anyway (f-ck Cox Cable and their highway robbery packages).

Absent having ESP and knowing he was really harmless to my daughter or wife long-term, due to FL's laws, I'd just shoot the TV. Or give him a nice whack with an aluminum bat to tip of the shoulder blade. Or stab him in the base of the neck, bleed him out in the backyard, and take the body to a nice bog a few miles away where the crocks tend to congregate. Depends on if he has tatoos.

[Demon of Undoing]

Oh, he's not getting away.

[Ibrahim]

The main thrust of my question was whether or not you'd kill someone over property. State laws and hypothetical tactical scenarios aside for the time being. Agreed that you can say "weeeell, he might come after my family," but then so could any random passer by on the street. Assuming you don't think any lives are immediately threatened, or that you could act if they were, would you shoot somebody just trying to rob you? That's my question.

I am curious...how should one know the burglar is unarmed and harmless?

Would you shoot before trying to determine if we was armed or a physical threat?

However, in Texas, if you see a guy running across an open field behind your house, the back door is open and he has your TV in his hands, you can break out a scoped rifle and get a running shot.

This doesn't surprise me. The Joe Horn shooting was in Texas, which was informative for me re: Texas law.

[cincinnatus]

The main thrust of my question was whether or not you'd kill someone over property. State laws and hypothetical tactical scenarios aside for the time being. Agreed that you can say "weeeell, he might come after my family," but then so could any random passer by on the street. Assuming you don't think any lives are immediately threatened, or that you could act if they were, would you shoot somebody just trying to rob you? That's my question.

I am curious...how should one know the burglar is unarmed and harmless?

Would you shoot before trying to determine if we was armed or a physical threat?

I'd take a position with partial cover, aim, and give him the chance. I wouldn't yell to shock him. I'd calmly say, you have a .45 Long Colt aimed center mass. Step back, turn to the right, and place the TV on the ground. Then, stand up with your hands in the air with palms pointed at the ceiling. I will not shoot if you follow these instructions. If he kept going, I'd simply follow with the gun on him to maintain ID and hopefully get specifics on his vehicle (this assumes wife on cell phone talking to 911 the moment we hear the sound that alerted us). Edit: this assumes I haven't lavender myself and loaded the gun with batteries.

As for the bigger picture (kill over property), it has nothing to do with the property. That's why I have insurance. It has everything to do with my duty to protect my family, regardless of your flipant remark (the "random passer on the street" hasn't displayed breaking and entering through an electronic alarm skill set, so leave the strawman outside please). But, to answer the tail end, under those specific circumstances, I don't want to take a human life over some object of dubious value.