Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandchild

Past and present. You can't make this stuff up.
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Enki
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Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandchild

Post by Enki »

Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Ibrahim
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

If I were a German under the age of say 60 I'd just be sick of hearing about it. Like Southern Americans who get tired of hearing about slavery, or North Americans in general who scoff at anything to do with the plight of Native Americans.
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Enki
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Enki »

Ibrahim wrote:If I were a German under the age of say 60 I'd just be sick of hearing about it. Like Southern Americans who get tired of hearing about slavery, or North Americans in general who scoff at anything to do with the plight of Native Americans.
According to the article, they don't really hear much about it.

I am not tired of hearing about the plight of the Native Americans. There are plenty of stories I don't know, and it's such a heartbreaking loss.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Apollonius
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Apollonius »

Ibrahim wrote:If I were a German under the age of say 60 I'd just be sick of hearing about it. Like Southern Americans who get tired of hearing about slavery, or North Americans in general who scoff at anything to do with the plight of Native Americans.

Or, for that matter, Turks being sick of hearing about the Armenian genocide, or the Iroquois being reminded about their extermination of the Huron.


Have to admit, I didn't read the article because I doubt there is any new information there.


I think a film like 'Aimee & Jaguar' is more effective at telling this story than a lecture.
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Enki
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Enki »

LOL, neither of you read the article, or have even commented upon the topic.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Ibrahim
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

Apollonius wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:If I were a German under the age of say 60 I'd just be sick of hearing about it. Like Southern Americans who get tired of hearing about slavery, or North Americans in general who scoff at anything to do with the plight of Native Americans.

Or, for that matter, Turks being sick of hearing about the Armenian genocide, or the Iroquois being reminded about their extermination of the Huron.
Speaking of which, you should probably give your house to some Pacific Coast Native American family.
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Apollonius
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Apollonius »

Why? I built it myself. No one lived anywhere near here in prehistoric times.

But you know, Ibrahim, my youngest relative is half Native and he may well inherit this place (it's pretty humble. Not sure he'll want it).


So when are you going to give all your money to an Armenian family?
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

Apollonius wrote:Why? I built it myself. No one lived anywhere near here in prehistoric times.
No one. Aren't you certain.
But you know, Ibrahim, my youngest relative is half Native and he may well inherit this place
Well that's a nice start, but I'd still think about signing your RRSPs over to the Niiska or something.

So when are you going to give all your money to an Armenian family?
It would be more logical to give it to an Algonquin family, given where I live now. You only bring up the Armenian genocide because of your bigotry and racism. You can't think of me as Canadian.
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Apollonius
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Apollonius »

Ibrahim, I don't think of you as a foreigner. I do think you are despicable, though.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

Apollonius wrote:Ibrahim, I don't think of you as a foreigner. I do think you are despicable, though.
That would be your racism and bigotry again. How dare an inferior like me tell you that your irrational hatred of Muslims isn't based on anything logical or historical? You're an immoral person, but too cowardly to ever do anything about it but whine on the Internet. Ultimately harmless.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.

saw the article

Was in Germany in 1958-61, went to school there, learned German in München, Dolmetscherschule

all my teachers were ex German soldiers, some officers, one or two "night fighter pilots", even one back from Siberian prison camp

debated them a lot, talked with them

look guys

all story you read and hear about WWII & German story is a lie, fabricated for political reason still unfolding

so

German new generation SHOULD talk with their parents and ask for the REAL STORY

and

they do

Germans, don't admit (to foreigners), but they know the real story

that is why Günter Grass had a so big resonance



tD1QHO_AVZA


.

He tried to prove God exists, but ended up offending his Chosen People.

Jewish groups rebuked the head of the Catholic church in Australia on Saturday for comments he made on the Holocaust during a televised debate with biologist Richard Dawkins.

The Archbishop of Sydney George Pell pointed towards the suffering of the Germans when asked why the deity he believes in had allowed the murder of six million Jews during the Holocaust.

"[God] helped probably through secondary causes for the Jews to escape and continue," Pell said. "it's interesting through these secondary causes probably no people in history have suffered the way the Germans were."

The cardinal quickly backtracked, however, when the moderator said there would be a "strong argument to be made" that the Jews suffered more than the Germans.

"Yes, that might be right," a visibly flustered Pell said. "I mean the Jews...there was no reason why they should suffer."

The Executive Council of Australian Jewry, an umbrella group which represents the country's roughly 90,000 Jews, responded by calling the Christian religious leader's remarks "problematic."

.



.
Ammianus
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ammianus »

It'll be interesting as well to see what happens if a Japanese amateur researcher were to do the same thing to his grandparents regarding their involvements in the Pacific Theatre/Sino Japanese War. Wonder that their responses would have been like compared to Herr Hermann.


Ah who are kidding, that'll probably never be done in Japan proper.
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Endovelico
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Endovelico »

I had read the article on Der Spiegel and my concluding thoughts were on how likely it would be for Germans (most of them, anyway) to do it all over again if conditions were right. Nazism, concentration camps and holocaust were not freak occurrences. Germans have all of that in their genes, but it doesn't come out unless circumstances are propitious. German sense of superiority is a fact. Their idea that non-Germans are discardable is also a fact. I'm afraid that no one of us will live long enough to see any change on that. Pity Germany was not permanently split into four or five separate countries after the war...
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Torchwood »

Oh, almost any people would be capable of it, given the wrong circumstances:
The Milgram experiments

Indeed, Russia and China did the same, more or less, under a different label, yet culturally little links them with Germany.

The main legacy is that Germany is now unwilling to take the leadership role that its economic power and population assigns to it - too much history.

Once upon a time, Endo, the Portuguese wandered around bits of Asia killing if one did not submit to their intolerant brand of religion, and founded Brazil - the longest lasting slave state in the western hemisphere. Is that stuff in Portuguese genes? I am surprised at a man of the left going on about genetic determinism, but then communism and fascism were never far apart.
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Endovelico
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Endovelico »

Torchwood wrote:Once upon a time, Endo, the Portuguese wandered around bits of Asia killing if one did not submit to their intolerant brand of religion, and founded Brazil - the longest lasting slave state in the western hemisphere. Is that stuff in Portuguese genes? I am surprised at a man of the left going on about genetic determinism, but then communism and fascism were never far apart.
We did a lot less killing in Asia than the Dutch and the British. And we almost converted Japan to Christianity, without any use of force, as we were only a few people over there. The real killing, to eradicate Christianity, was done by the Japanese to their own people. And what's so strange about genetic determinism? Isn't your behaviour determined to a large extent by your genes? Finally, on what Brazil is concerned, it only kept slavery some twenty years longer than the US. Not exactly a dramatic difference.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by noddy »

tis always fun to see the euro nationalists argue about which imperial rape n slaughter and cultural domination was less/more than the other...gets even better when the muslims and chinese start playin too.
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Ibrahim
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

Portuguese colonialism in East Asia was the least harmful and exploitative of the local population, and the most cooperative and mutually beneficial. This is more than compensated for by their American and African colonies being some of the most brutally run, and their indispensable role in the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

If people are minded to "keep score" might as well be accurate.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:Portuguese colonialism in East Asia was the least harmful and exploitative of the local population, and the most cooperative and mutually beneficial. This is more than compensated for by their American and African colonies being some of the most brutally run, and their indispensable role in the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

If people are minded to "keep score" might as well be accurate.
We were definitely guilty of slave trading. Absolutely inexcusable. As to brutality in Africa and America, I do not agree, while recognizing that violence was present in our brand of colonialism. But many people, starting with the Jesuit order, considered illegal the enslavement of native people in Brazil, and fought for their liberation, while at the same time accepting the use of African slaves. And in Africa, mainly in Angola, our practices were not particularly racist and violent, so much so that we left behind the most ethnically integrated country in Africa, with an unusual sense of national identity far and above any tribal allegiances. I have a large number of African students and their complete lack of resentment against Portugal is a sign that violence was not structural nor general. Once I had a student from the UNITA movement in Angola asking me, during class, whether I had been in Angola (as an army officer) "to kill blacks". His father had been killed by the political police in Angola, and he was understandably resentful. Later on, when he was afraid of being deported for political activities on behalf of UNITA in Portugal, he came to me and I offered to shelter him at my house, in case of need. This shows that resentment, when present, is not very deep. So, yes, we did lots of wrong things around the world, but we were less brutal and more tolerant than the average European power in our contacts with other peoples. I'm not exactly proud of our behaviour, but neither am I particularly ashamed.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Portuguese colonialism in East Asia was the least harmful and exploitative of the local population, and the most cooperative and mutually beneficial. This is more than compensated for by their American and African colonies being some of the most brutally run, and their indispensable role in the trans-Atlantic slave trade.

If people are minded to "keep score" might as well be accurate.
We were definitely guilty of slave trading. Absolutely inexcusable. As to brutality in Africa and America, I do not agree, while recognizing that violence was present in our brand of colonialism. But many people, starting with the Jesuit order, considered illegal the enslavement of native people in Brazil, and fought for their liberation, while at the same time accepting the use of African slaves.
The Jesuits were famously expelled from Brazil by the Portuguese crown to stop them from interfering with the slave trade there.



And in Africa, mainly in Angola, our practices were not particularly racist and violent, so much so that we left behind the most ethnically integrated country in Africa, with an unusual sense of national identity far and above any tribal allegiances.
I was referring to Portugal as the main transporter of African slaves to the American colonies.




I wasn't referring to the period of decolonization in the 20th century.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:The Jesuits were famously expelled from Brazil by the Portuguese crown to stop them from interfering with the slave trade there.
Not the crown. The local settlers took care of that. The Jesuits were actually in very good standing with the Crown, in Lisbon.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The Jesuits were famously expelled from Brazil by the Portuguese crown to stop them from interfering with the slave trade there.
Not the crown. The local settlers took care of that. The Jesuits were actually in very good standing with the Crown, in Lisbon.

But the Portuguese crown left in the lurch in the aftermath of the Treaty of Madrid, and royal troops suppressed the Guarani revolt.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The Jesuits were famously expelled from Brazil by the Portuguese crown to stop them from interfering with the slave trade there.
Not the crown. The local settlers took care of that. The Jesuits were actually in very good standing with the Crown, in Lisbon.

But the Portuguese crown left in the lurch in the aftermath of the Treaty of Madrid, and royal troops suppressed the Guarani revolt.
I'm surprised at your familiarity with these matters. Far too many Portuguese wouldn't have the foggiest idea of what you are referring to.
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Ibrahim »

Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:The Jesuits were famously expelled from Brazil by the Portuguese crown to stop them from interfering with the slave trade there.
Not the crown. The local settlers took care of that. The Jesuits were actually in very good standing with the Crown, in Lisbon.

But the Portuguese crown left in the lurch in the aftermath of the Treaty of Madrid, and royal troops suppressed the Guarani revolt.
I'm surprised at your familiarity with these matters. Far too many Portuguese wouldn't have the foggiest idea of what you are referring to.

I started reading about the Jesuits vs. the Spanish and Portuguese states after stumbling over references to the Rites Controversy and the subsequent decline of the Jesuits in Macau while visiting there.

It is obscure stuff. I doubt it has any influence on modern life in Portugal or Brazil, it's just historical detail.
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Endovelico
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Re: Germany: WWII generation and conversations with grandch

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:I started reading about the Jesuits vs. the Spanish and Portuguese states after stumbling over references to the Rites Controversy and the subsequent decline of the Jesuits in Macau while visiting there.

It is obscure stuff. I doubt it has any influence on modern life in Portugal or Brazil, it's just historical detail.
It hasn't. But the world would be a better place if we cared enough to learn something about other peoples' life and history. Or even about one's own history. As I got older I became increasingly aware of the mistakes, and even crimes, we committed throughout our history. But there has always been a point which I can't help feeling a bit proud of: our complete lack of racial pride and our ability to mingle with and integrate other peoples in our society. There isn't such a thing as perfect tolerance, but I think we come closer than any other people. I'm seeing an increasingly mixed society growing in Portugal, mostly in the Greater Lisbon area, and the complete lack of concern, by most people, for such a development. I hope we are able to keep that lack of concern for many years.
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