The Cheapest Generation

Now, what news on the Rialto?
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Enki
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect wrote:So Tinker if living in a hand built pallet board shack and sh!$%ng in your own hand dug hole is the new standard of living can you tell me why you guys were so enthusiastic about flushing all those trillions into the ocean via STPN? I think I can make a pallet shack and dig a hole without a single dollar of it. Let me know your thoughts.

BTW this conversation is the one that could give you a clue as to how you'll lose the women vote.

Can you translate that for me? I don't speak vacuous.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Sure you do. Better than most.

If pallet shacks and hand dug s#!! holes are the new mcmansions can you tell me why you guys spent all those trillions on STPN? We can build pallet shacks and $#!holes without any gov't assistance whatsoever, so what was the purpose?
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Ammianus
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Ammianus »

Enki wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:So Tinker if living in a hand built pallet board shack and sh!$%ng in your own hand dug hole is the new standard of living can you tell me why you guys were so enthusiastic about flushing all those trillions into the ocean via STPN? I think I can make a pallet shack and dig a hole without a single dollar of it. Let me know your thoughts.

BTW this conversation is the one that could give you a clue as to how you'll lose the women vote.

Can you translate that for me? I don't speak vacuous.

I think he's making fun of your acceptance, nay, your cheerleading of something that's not only hip, cool, and environmentally sustainable but also a clear material devolution/decline in modern comfort and living standards.

At least, that's what appears to be. One will never know with live action Toontowners like MP.
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Boy when a presumably grown man can say out loud that $#!tshacks are hip and cool someone must have reanimated Rod Serling I think.

And Amms you missed the bit where we didn't need to spend all those trillions in near record debt/sedatives just to build $#!!shacks. next time please don't run up record debts in record fashion if everyone is going to live in a pallet $#!!shack anyway, there isn't any need. Does that help?
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noddy
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by noddy »

woot, any attempted discussion on how the baby boomer FIRE thang aint perhaps going to be a useful model for the next gen is poo shacks and the death of the western progress.

i spose the whole pricing the next gen out of the market and denying the working poor the same start from humble beginings they had and then trying to fix it with ninja loans that wobbled the global economy gets lost in the partisan lavender fights.
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Juggernaut Nihilism
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

noddy wrote:i spose the whole pricing the next gen out of the market and denying the working poor the same start from humble beginings they had and then trying to fix it with ninja loans that wobbled the global economy gets lost in the partisan lavender fights.
A global recession and economic realignment, with opaque derivatives and shady conspiracies, explained in one simple sentence. Well done.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
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Enki
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Enki »

Ammianus wrote: I think he's making fun of your acceptance, nay, your cheerleading of something that's not only hip, cool, and environmentally sustainable but also a clear material devolution/decline in modern comfort and living standards.

At least, that's what appears to be. One will never know with live action Toontowners like MP.
It's not at all a decline in comfort or living standards. I live in an apartment with a toilet. I am just saying that the happiest people I know live in the woods and have very low costs.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Enki
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:woot, any attempted discussion on how the baby boomer FIRE thang aint perhaps going to be a useful model for the next gen is poo shacks and the death of the western progress.

i spose the whole pricing the next gen out of the market and denying the working poor the same start from humble beginings they had and then trying to fix it with ninja loans that wobbled the global economy gets lost in the partisan lavender fights.
Thing is, there is a lot of simpler living that can occur that is not 'primitive'. Living a permaculture lifestyle is actually MORE TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED than living the way we live now. Composting toilets, aquaponics, actually having control of your own lavender literally is more advanced than what we currently have. Sharing your resources, you can actually have more. Some friends of mine are talking about building a compound upstate where it will be a membership collective and will have expensive resource utilities like machine shops and recording studios, things that a person like me could not afford on my own but I'll probably get a membership if we can get it setup. At the end of the month we're going to do a weekend sabbatical with about two dozen people on a particular piece of property that has a lot to offer. 12 bedroom house with like 7 bathrooms a pool and such on 5 acres next to 150 acres of forest that cannot be developed.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I love it. The old Democrat slogan to America "A chicken in every pot, a car in every garage" updated to now "Everybody gets a palletboard $#!%shack". It's technologically advanced to boot. Hello women voters, form a line to the right.
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Skin Job
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Skin Job »

The tricky part is trying to define "standard of living" subjectively instead of objectively. Statisticians don't like trying to measure the subjective, it's difficult, messy, and inaccurate.
Simple Minded

Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:
noddy wrote:woot, any attempted discussion on how the baby boomer FIRE thang aint perhaps going to be a useful model for the next gen is poo shacks and the death of the western progress.

i spose the whole pricing the next gen out of the market and denying the working poor the same start from humble beginings they had and then trying to fix it with ninja loans that wobbled the global economy gets lost in the partisan lavender fights.
Thing is, there is a lot of simpler living that can occur that is not 'primitive'. Living a permaculture lifestyle is actually MORE TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED than living the way we live now. Composting toilets, aquaponics, actually having control of your own lavender literally is more advanced than what we currently have. Sharing your resources, you can actually have more. Some friends of mine are talking about building a compound upstate where it will be a membership collective and will have expensive resource utilities like machine shops and recording studios, things that a person like me could not afford on my own but I'll probably get a membership if we can get it setup. At the end of the month we're going to do a weekend sabbatical with about two dozen people on a particular piece of property that has a lot to offer. 12 bedroom house with like 7 bathrooms a pool and such on 5 acres next to 150 acres of forest that cannot be developed.
Again Tinker I salute you! I love the idea of people having control of their own lavender, but not having control over other people's lavender.

The differences between Tinkertown and SimpleMindedstan seem to be shrinking all the time.....
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Juggernaut Nihilism
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Enki wrote:
Ammianus wrote: I think he's making fun of your acceptance, nay, your cheerleading of something that's not only hip, cool, and environmentally sustainable but also a clear material devolution/decline in modern comfort and living standards.

At least, that's what appears to be. One will never know with live action Toontowners like MP.
It's not at all a decline in comfort or living standards. I live in an apartment with a toilet. I am just saying that the happiest people I know live in the woods and have very low costs.
Not necessarily a wrong sentiment, but expecting the mass of men to become Lao Tse is not a realistic sociopolitical program.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
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Juggernaut Nihilism
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Enki wrote:
noddy wrote:woot, any attempted discussion on how the baby boomer FIRE thang aint perhaps going to be a useful model for the next gen is poo shacks and the death of the western progress.

i spose the whole pricing the next gen out of the market and denying the working poor the same start from humble beginings they had and then trying to fix it with ninja loans that wobbled the global economy gets lost in the partisan lavender fights.
Thing is, there is a lot of simpler living that can occur that is not 'primitive'. Living a permaculture lifestyle is actually MORE TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED than living the way we live now. Composting toilets, aquaponics, actually having control of your own lavender literally is more advanced than what we currently have. Sharing your resources, you can actually have more. Some friends of mine are talking about building a compound upstate where it will be a membership collective and will have expensive resource utilities like machine shops and recording studios, things that a person like me could not afford on my own but I'll probably get a membership if we can get it setup. At the end of the month we're going to do a weekend sabbatical with about two dozen people on a particular piece of property that has a lot to offer. 12 bedroom house with like 7 bathrooms a pool and such on 5 acres next to 150 acres of forest that cannot be developed.
I'm sure you've discussed ways to avoid the common pitfalls of every other commune that's ever existed - certainly ones bound not by a common religious vision, but primarily an economic one. Not being snarky... I'm interested.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
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Enki
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Enki »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote: I'm sure you've discussed ways to avoid the common pitfalls of every other commune that's ever existed - certainly ones bound not by a common religious vision, but primarily an economic one. Not being snarky... I'm interested.
That is by far the most difficult part to deal with. Many commune dwellers are transient and go from commune to commune, that resolves part of the problem.

However, there are any number of hybrids. For instance. Lets say I live in a small town. Now, my neighbors and I talk about how great it would be to have a woodshop. I have a scroll saw, you have a tablesaw, Demon of Undoing has a chainsaw, Nonc Hillare has the lathe and Marcus has the sophisticated set of carving knives and chisels. We could build a shop on someone's land in a central location and each get a key and come to use the machine shop. Of course there will be a day when two of us need the table saw at the same time, but that's the sort of thing you work out in life. Our current paradigm doesn't account for all contingencies either.

A lot of communes end up being hippy sex cults, but that isn't the only form. There are a lot of pitfalls that can be faced, but the fact remains that leveraging resources cooperatively can result in a higher standard of living for all involved. Having grown up around poverty, I saw that a lot of poverty came as a result of people busting their obligations to one another and ultimately destroying trust. My parents purchased a hot water heater for the parents of some of my friends and then there was a falling out when one of their kids ran up sex lines on our phone bill, so you add $ 350 in phone charges to the $ 900 water heater and my parents essentially ate a loss of about $ 1200. The distinct lack of the community mindset in that transaction screwed everyone involved at the end because the longer term trust relationship that might have helped replace a refrigerator down the road was damaged. The Mother could have sent the son over to our house to do yard work at $ 6 an hour until he paid off the $ 300, but she didn't.

Your Lao Tse comment does have quite a bit of insight to it, because it is precisely this sort of unenlightened non-reciprocalism that produces poverty in the first place. In these sorts of scenarios where I am involved in these kinds of things, coming from the city, I often have more money and end up spending a fair amount in resources to contribute.

Our current paradigm is based off of the notion that you cannot trust the people around you to be reciprocal like that. It's unfortunate, but that's what holds back a lot of sharing in this world, and is why someone can have the drill someone else needs sitting in a closet doing nothing. I am fairly convinced that for most things the answer to our problems exists within a couple of miles of us at any given time.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Apollonius
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Apollonius »

This thread is making me feel old.
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Can anyone tell me why we flushed trillions and trillions of dollars down the toilet in STPN just so we could have a tool sharing and $#!tshack economy?
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Endovelico »

Being an individualist I don't consider cooperativism and mutualism as ideals, but as tools. I don't need mystique, only common sense. And I'm wiling to sacrifice a bit of efficiency in order to preserve freedom and justice.
Simple Minded

Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote: I'm sure you've discussed ways to avoid the common pitfalls of every other commune that's ever existed - certainly ones bound not by a common religious vision, but primarily an economic one. Not being snarky... I'm interested.
That is by far the most difficult part to deal with. Many commune dwellers are transient and go from commune to commune, that resolves part of the problem.

However, there are any number of hybrids. For instance. Lets say I live in a small town. Now, my neighbors and I talk about how great it would be to have a woodshop. I have a scroll saw, you have a tablesaw, Demon of Undoing has a chainsaw, Nonc Hillare has the lathe and Marcus has the sophisticated set of carving knives and chisels. We could build a shop on someone's land in a central location and each get a key and come to use the machine shop. Of course there will be a day when two of us need the table saw at the same time, but that's the sort of thing you work out in life. Our current paradigm doesn't account for all contingencies either.

A lot of communes end up being hippy sex cults, but that isn't the only form. There are a lot of pitfalls that can be faced, but the fact remains that leveraging resources cooperatively can result in a higher standard of living for all involved. Having grown up around poverty, I saw that a lot of poverty came as a result of people busting their obligations to one another and ultimately destroying trust. My parents purchased a hot water heater for the parents of some of my friends and then there was a falling out when one of their kids ran up sex lines on our phone bill, so you add $ 350 in phone charges to the $ 900 water heater and my parents essentially ate a loss of about $ 1200. The distinct lack of the community mindset in that transaction screwed everyone involved at the end because the longer term trust relationship that might have helped replace a refrigerator down the road was damaged. The Mother could have sent the son over to our house to do yard work at $ 6 an hour until he paid off the $ 300, but she didn't.

Your Lao Tse comment does have quite a bit of insight to it, because it is precisely this sort of unenlightened non-reciprocalism that produces poverty in the first place. In these sorts of scenarios where I am involved in these kinds of things, coming from the city, I often have more money and end up spending a fair amount in resources to contribute.

Our current paradigm is based off of the notion that you cannot trust the people around you to be reciprocal like that. It's unfortunate, but that's what holds back a lot of sharing in this world, and is why someone can have the drill someone else needs sitting in a closet doing nothing. I am fairly convinced that for most things the answer to our problems exists within a couple of miles of us at any given time.

Amen again!!! You are describing a large number of towns and organizations that exist everwhere.

Freedom of association solves most of the problems you describe. Voting with your wallet and your feet works wonders.

Life is flux. As people grow or shrink, they can buy in or sell out.

Tough part is getting everyone to grow at the same rate in the same direction as the plan dictates. Enforcement is only useful if you have a short timeframe.
Enki wrote: Our current paradigm is based off of the notion that you cannot trust the people around you to be reciprocal like that.
For some people, in some cultures, yes. Tip O Neal liked to say "All politics is local." All culture is also local.

For some, it only exists within a 5 foot radius of their amygdala.

What goes around comes around, perhaps your grandchildren will growup in a world where no one locks their doors or ever takes the keys out of the car ignition.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simple Minded

Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Simple Minded »

Apollonius wrote:This thread is making me feel old.
:lol: :lol:

Tell me about it, seen this movie before.... ;)

yeah, but, feeling old...... is that a good feeling or a bad feeling? :D

You can be the Apprentice Bullshitter Starting To Feel Old (ABSTFO), but you can't have my title just yet..... maybe after I get a few more enemas.....
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Enki
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Enki »

One of the most troubling aspects for the left/right divide in this nation is that due to Cold War rhetoric, talking about basic community has become radical. You are a 'collectivist' if you believe in community. It's been surreal to hear stalwart Conservatives scoff at mentions I've made about finding ways to provide services to one's community without government intervention.

Essentially the model I am following is Hasidim. They have their own buses, their own ambulances, etc... etc...
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote:One of the most troubling aspects for the left/right divide in this nation is that due to Cold War rhetoric, talking about basic community has become radical.
No the left right divide is that for the right community is natural and doesn't even need to be stated, we've been lending each other stuff and taking care of each other for generations, but the left has to politicize such activity or manipulate it to justify state slavery.

Personally I am looking forward to the next iteration of leftists wherein the slogan is "no autonomy except over your $#!%", should be a lot easier to defeat than the last ones.
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Simple Minded

Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:One of the most troubling aspects for the left/right divide in this nation is that due to Cold War rhetoric, talking about basic community has become radical. You are a 'collectivist' if you believe in community. It's been surreal to hear stalwart Conservatives scoff at mentions I've made about finding ways to provide services to one's community without government intervention.

Essentially the model I am following is Hasidim. They have their own buses, their own ambulances, etc... etc...
There's a Left/Right divide in this country? Huh...

What you are experiencing (real word?) is the inevitable result of binary signification!!

God, I love that word! Makes me feel like a little boy with a new puppy!! Great name for a racehorse too. Thanks Dio!

Where was I.... Oh yeah.. Anytime one expects someone, either in the "Us" or "Them" group, to be right/left, liberal/conservative, white/black, American/European, etc., they should also expect to be both wrong and dissappointed AT LEAST 50% of the time.

Anytime I hear/read someone use the above terminology, I think, "Well..... I'm sure they know what they mean by that word... but....."

People with first names are different...... ;) not really sure why...... :lol:
noddy
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Re: The Cheapest Generation

Post by noddy »

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/ ... aspx#page1
The go-go days in the U.S. were precipitated by a trifecta of innovation and progress – revolutions in steam and the railroads from 1750 to 1830; electricity, internal combustion, running water, indoor toilets, communications, entertainment, chemicals, and petroleum from 1870 to 1900; and from 1960 to today, computers, the web, and mobile phones — all of which contributed to the country’s economic growth.

It's not that there won't be any more great innovations to fuel growth in the coming years, but even if innovation were to continue at the same rate as it has in the past, Gordon says America faces six headwinds that are in the process of dragging long-term growth to half or less of the 1.9 percent annual rate experienced between 1860 and 2007. These include demographic trends like an aging workforce, gaps in the education system, rising income inequality, globalization, declining energy/environment resources, and of course, debt – held by the average American, as well as Uncle Sam.
Many of the headwinds are closely interconnected
ultracrepidarian
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