Liborgate

Now, what news on the Rialto?
Post Reply
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Liborgate

Post by Parodite »

My hatred for those mega-criminals in the financial industry and their opportunist henchmen in politics boils over by now.
INFOGRAPHIC: The LIBOR Scandal Explained

The LIBOR scandal is being called the "Wall Street scandal of all scandals" and the "rotten heart of finance," but the massive fraud can be hard to fathom for anyone who doesn't follow the markets.
The London Interbank Offered Rate (LIBOR) is a benchmark interest rate used broadly all over the world and affects trillions of dollars of loans – mortgage loans, small-business loans, personal loans – worldwide.
[...]
http://www.businessinsider.com/infograp ... ned-2012-7

qZWDemn_njg
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by Parodite »

pEzEtwqUd4M
Deep down I'm very superficial
User avatar
Juggernaut Nihilism
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Thanks for staying on this, even as the subject's opacity leads to a lack of response.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by Parodite »

Thanks. Maybe most people gave up looking at what caused the financial crisis and rather be entertained by party politics. Apres nous la deluge.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Liborgate

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Some people understand what happened and then yet others are fighting the last war.
Censorship isn't necessary
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by Parodite »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Some people understand what happened and then yet others are fighting the last war.
You have explained where and why government should stay out, best example being Funny Mac Dismay. I'm with you there. Need some laws and regulations to prevent politicians meddle in affairs in ways detrimental to healthy free market mechanisms. I'm a long way with you that the FED is an equally detrimental institution. They create and monopolize financial crises in close coordination with untrustworthy banks and then hijack the solution or "solution" having all politics in their pockets.

Not just in the USA; people don't recognize it as such but Merkel of Germany is a hostage of German banks. Any PM would be their hostage because money is the blood of our economy and banks are the vessels and tubes transporting it. If banks die, so will Germany, or Germany will shrink to the volume of its banks shrinking. This is what bank managers who are cynical enough love most: politicians having no choices left but dance the banking monkey dance: if my bank fails, so will you. And it wouldn't matter to them because privately they made their money already, whilst the taxpayer pays the price.

So also in this sense I am totally with you that the distance and disconnect between free market banking and government behavior should be made as big as possible but it is a two-way street; no more politicians creating Funny Dismay disasters, and no more FEDs doomed to create more trouble than they ever are able to solve, and no more banking communism where the top managers in the financial industries hijack politics and the hard working tax payers via outrageous bailouts and TARP.

If that is what you want, I think it should be done. And see what happens.

Given that the financial industry is as any other industry and that especially a healthy free market economy needs the right types of regulations and laws to protect those very free market mechanisms from (1) government interference that tends to destroy rather than create, and last but certainly not least (2) criminal tendencies from within the market itself; the role of the mafia.

So I would like to talk in advance already with you about how your free financial world would sufficiently protects itself from the criminal within. In other words, what is necessary to make your free market paradise work, not only to the private benefit of the hard working banker but also provides for a robust system of blood vessels that allows for the blood to be pumped around safely in our common economy.

You may have noticed that all human behavior, even in the in the freest of societies, is still regulated. That there are laws and criminal courts. This is not a coincidence of course. Criminals never like laws, any law. They will make their own where they can.

Side note Ayn Rands philosophy: The one inside of us individually that longs for maximum freedom is actually a twin baby: a moral and free hero and a villain. Ayn Rand put her money on the moral hero, which was a good bet living in a communist dictatorship. In a free world however with maximal personal freedom and responsibility, and as little as possible rules... the inner villain also smells more opportunity.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Liborgate

Post by Mr. Perfect »

OK parodite, I appreciate that.

So I think we can take things to the next level.

I want to drop a nuclear bomb on you here. Something I have never said and most human minds cannot accept. But I'm going to say it anyway.

Very little of what happened should be illegal. And very little was illegal.

I said it.

Now the first thing I expect are certain people to erupt and screech about ratings agencies, or banks screwing people in their documents and whatnot, but really, let me tell you this.

Anyone who makes an investing decision based on a ratings agency is a moron. In my more than 2 decades of financial experience I have never made one decision based on a ratings agency, at all. I have no sympathy whatsoever, I mean 0% for anyone whining about a ratings agency.

Same things with these mortgage paperwork deals. If I missed a payment I would expect to be evicted, period. Any extra time given me I would consider a gracious gift. The idea that you can borrow money and then not pay it back and then complain about how the paperwork went down, well I just don't care. Next time don't borrow money you can't pay back.

So what it the point I'm making? The point I'm making is that I can't agree with you that this is some sort of criminality, law and order issue. This is an issue of human stupidity, which cannot be outlawed. This is filling Zeppelins with hydrogen, this is somebody burning down a turn of the century town made of wood from a discarded cigarette, it's you teen daughter not checking the oil and seizing up your engine by running it dry. There are no fraud laws to prevent any of that from happening. Human beings thought it was a good idea at the time and it ended up going badly.

Now what you are not going to like is there is no catharsis here. You're searching for catharsis, for payback, for somebody to hang this all on and provide you with the soothing notion that yes you were robbed but justice was served.

You're never going to get it. Human beings did dumb stuff that there really isn't much of a "Law" to stop, we did it to ourselves through perverse gov't/political agendas, and the house of cards all fell down.

Somebody burned down the apple orchard because they thought gasoline was fertilizer and then had a smoke. They just did. Putting the guy in jail won't bring the orchard back. I mean put him in jail if you want, it doesn't really matter to me either way but it won't change anything. That's all in the past now.

The only lesson is to not do subprime mortgages and to get rid of Freddie/Fannie and the Fed. There is nothing else.
Censorship isn't necessary
Simple Minded

Re: Liborgate

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Some people understand what happened and then yet others are fighting the last war.
You have explained where and why government should stay out, best example being Funny Mac Dismay. I'm with you there. Need some laws and regulations to prevent politicians meddle in affairs in ways detrimental to healthy free market mechanisms. I'm a long way with you that the FED is an equally detrimental institution. They create and monopolize financial crises in close coordination with untrustworthy banks and then hijack the solution or "solution" having all politics in their pockets.

Not just in the USA; people don't recognize it as such but Merkel of Germany is a hostage of German banks. Any PM would be their hostage because money is the blood of our economy and banks are the vessels and tubes transporting it. If banks die, so will Germany, or Germany will shrink to the volume of its banks shrinking. This is what bank managers who are cynical enough love most: politicians having no choices left but dance the banking monkey dance: if my bank fails, so will you. And it wouldn't matter to them because privately they made their money already, whilst the taxpayer pays the price.

So also in this sense I am totally with you that the distance and disconnect between free market banking and government behavior should be made as big as possible but it is a two-way street; no more politicians creating Funny Dismay disasters, and no more FEDs doomed to create more trouble than they ever are able to solve, and no more banking communism where the top managers in the financial industries hijack politics and the hard working tax payers via outrageous bailouts and TARP.

If that is what you want, I think it should be done. And see what happens.

Given that the financial industry is as any other industry and that especially a healthy free market economy needs the right types of regulations and laws to protect those very free market mechanisms from (1) government interference that tends to destroy rather than create, and last but certainly not least (2) criminal tendencies from within the market itself; the role of the mafia.

So I would like to talk in advance already with you about how your free financial world would sufficiently protects itself from the criminal within. In other words, what is necessary to make your free market paradise work, not only to the private benefit of the hard working banker but also provides for a robust system of blood vessels that allows for the blood to be pumped around safely in our common economy.

You may have noticed that all human behavior, even in the in the freest of societies, is still regulated. That there are laws and criminal courts. This is not a coincidence of course. Criminals never like laws, any law. They will make their own where they can.

Side note Ayn Rands philosophy: The one inside of us individually that longs for maximum freedom is actually a twin baby: a moral and free hero and a villain. Ayn Rand put her money on the moral hero, which was a good bet living in a communist dictatorship. In a free world however with maximal personal freedom and responsibility, and as little as possible rules... the inner villain also smells more opportunity.
Excellent post Parodite.

IMSMO, you nailed it. Maximum freedom requires maximum personal responsibility. Problem is most people want the former without the later, especially when they screw up. Then they want to be Bart Simpson.

Human nature seems to dictate that if individuals deal with the pain of their bad decisions and habits...... surprise, surprise, most won't remain stupid for long. Insulation, even in the name of compassion, is often counter-productive. How to fix individuals with self-destructive tendencies, or or who insist on being part of a herd that subscribes to irrational ideologies? I have no solutions.

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of their folly is to fill the world with fools."

Any form of government works with good people, none work with bad people. The obvious, timeless problem.

Personal responsibility also implies taking care of others not so well off or as capable. At least that's what the dinosaurs taught me as a youngun.

Still makes me chuckle to see what people read into Rand (or any author, for that matter). But what the hell, everyone is entitled to their own opinion..... We all function as our own filters...... Most authors seem to be mirrors of what is already in the reader as much as anything else. We all create the windows thru which we view the world.

"A man that has no virtue in himself, ever envies virtue in others, for men's minds will either feed upon their own good or upon other's evil, and he who lacks the one will prey upon the other."
Fancis Bacon

Noddy had one of the best takes on Rand (along with Marx). How one reads either, is no doubt directly related to how they were raised by their parents/culture.
Last edited by Simple Minded on Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Simple Minded

Re: Liborgate

Post by Simple Minded »

Mr. Perfect wrote:OK parodite, I appreciate that.

So I think we can take things to the next level.

I want to drop a nuclear bomb on you here. Something I have never said and most human minds cannot accept. But I'm going to say it anyway.

Very little of what happened should be illegal. And very little was illegal.

I said it.

Now the first thing I expect are certain people to erupt and screech about ratings agencies, or banks screwing people in their documents and whatnot, but really, let me tell you this.

Anyone who makes an investing decision based on a ratings agency is a moron. In my more than 2 decades of financial experience I have never made one decision based on a ratings agency, at all. I have no sympathy whatsoever, I mean 0% for anyone whining about a ratings agency.

Same things with these mortgage paperwork deals. If I missed a payment I would expect to be evicted, period. Any extra time given me I would consider a gracious gift. The idea that you can borrow money and then not pay it back and then complain about how the paperwork went down, well I just don't care. Next time don't borrow money you can't pay back.

So what it the point I'm making? The point I'm making is that I can't agree with you that this is some sort of criminality, law and order issue. This is an issue of human stupidity, which cannot be outlawed. This is filling Zeppelins with hydrogen, this is somebody burning down a turn of the century town made of wood from a discarded cigarette, it's you teen daughter not checking the oil and seizing up your engine by running it dry. There are no fraud laws to prevent any of that from happening. Human beings thought it was a good idea at the time and it ended up going badly.

Now what you are not going to like is there is no catharsis here. You're searching for catharsis, for payback, for somebody to hang this all on and provide you with the soothing notion that yes you were robbed but justice was served.

You're never going to get it. Human beings did dumb stuff that there really isn't much of a "Law" to stop, we did it to ourselves through perverse gov't/political agendas, and the house of cards all fell down.

Somebody burned down the apple orchard because they thought gasoline was fertilizer and then had a smoke. They just did. Putting the guy in jail won't bring the orchard back. I mean put him in jail if you want, it doesn't really matter to me either way but it won't change anything. That's all in the past now.

The only lesson is to not do subprime mortgages and to get rid of Freddie/Fannie and the Fed. There is nothing else.
Excellent post Mr. Perfect.

When many individuals are successful, they claim the credit, when they are stupid, most individuals want to blame someone else. People love arguing whether regulations corrupt the regulator or the regulatee more, but most don't want to admit it was their inherent desire for living beyond their means that caught up with them. Reality always sucks for the self-delusional.

The morning after a night of hard drinking, everyone wants to blame their friends, the alcohol, the bartender, etc. Everyone except the drinker was the problem.

People......... whacha gonna do?
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by Parodite »

SM en Mr.P. thanks.

1. Can you give any examples, in past or present, where actions of bankers or other free individuals working in the financial industry were/are illegal?
2. Can you give any examples of actions that are legal now but should be illegal in the future?
3. Can you give any examples of actions that are illegal now but should be legal in the future?
4. If you want to abolish the FED and prevent government interference as per Funny Dismay, don't you need new rules and regulations?
5. Do you think the food industry needs to be regulated?

As for the "Well.. people do screw up from time to time.. can't prevent all that by law,,,", does that mean you'd prefer to downgrade current civil and criminal law considerably or even abolish it entirely? In a way I also prefer conflicts be resolved man to man. ;)

Image

Seriously, I don't mind taking it up with a banker or speculator who gambled away my pension savings and give him the bullet.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Liborgate

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Parodite wrote:SM en Mr.P. thanks.

1. Can you give any examples, in past or present, where actions of bankers or other free individuals working in the financial industry were/are illegal?
Don't follow you.
2. Can you give any examples of actions that are legal now but should be illegal in the future?
Not sure.
3. Can you give any examples of actions that are illegal now but should be legal in the future?
Almost all of them.
4. If you want to abolish the FED and prevent government interference as per Funny Dismay, don't you need new rules and regulations?
i don't know. I think you just auction it all off.
5. Do you think the food industry needs to be regulated?
More on this later.
As for the "Well.. people do screw up from time to time.. can't prevent all that by law,,,", does that mean you'd prefer to downgrade current civil and criminal law considerably or even abolish it entirely? In a way I also prefer conflicts be resolved man to man. ;)

Seriously, I don't mind taking it up with a banker or speculator who gambled away my pension savings and give him the bullet.
Why did you let another man gamble away your pension savings?
Censorship isn't necessary
Simple Minded

Re: Liborgate

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:SM en Mr.P. thanks.

1. Can you give any examples, in past or present, where actions of bankers or other free individuals working in the financial industry were/are illegal?
2. Can you give any examples of actions that are legal now but should be illegal in the future?
3. Can you give any examples of actions that are illegal now but should be legal in the future?
4. If you want to abolish the FED and prevent government interference as per Funny Dismay, don't you need new rules and regulations?
5. Do you think the food industry needs to be regulated?

As for the "Well.. people do screw up from time to time.. can't prevent all that by law,,,", does that mean you'd prefer to downgrade current civil and criminal law considerably or even abolish it entirely? In a way I also prefer conflicts be resolved man to man. ;)

Seriously, I don't mind taking it up with a banker or speculator who gambled away my pension savings and give him the bullet.
Excellent questions Parodite, how to answer without being either flippant or spending days typing is a problem. I’ll try, but the questions themselves would require volumes to answer to most people’s satisfaction. The recent trends towards privatizing profits and socializing losses say nothing about a free market, yet speaks volumes of a culture of corruption.

1. This may seem a copout, but I am not really a banking history scholar. I don’t think regulations prevent dishonest behaviour, especially when the regulators themselves can be bought, or when dishonest acts can be performed legally. While there is a big difference between dishonest and illegal, I think the vast majority of human actions are determined by what is culturally moral, rather than legislatively legal.

2&3. Rand Paul has recently published a book called Government Bullies: http://www.amazon.com/Government-Bullie ... 1455522759

From the interviews I have heard it would be a good source of the examples you seek. Here is another book I have heard discussed that may provide the examples you seek:
http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Da ... 1594032556

From my own experience, in agriculture, construction, and the nuclear industry, I could give you numerous examples of regulations driving up costs, with actual/potential benefits that are not measurable, and therefore, potentially non-existent. Unfortunately, I am just too damn lazy to type up the background details that would define the examples enough to make the anecdotes meaningful. My brother who has been a builder for 25 years could talk your ear off about how his business costs have been driven up due to ever increasing regulations. Quick example, it is now a law in NY state that my brother can not hire just anyone to plow snow. The potential snow plow contractor has to get certification from Albany. So much for the little guy….

It would be interesting to see a graph of the number of pages in the Code of Federal Regulations over the last 80 years or so... Then add to that state regulations and county regulations.

Even the Feds know that you can’t impose the same requirements that OSHA imposes on the manufacturing industry, on the farming or construction industries, without destroying both. When I think of the regulatory increase I have seen in the last 30 years, in the few industries I have worked, I am amazed that there is any industry left in the US. Yet people desire to blame corporations, strange…..

Can’t blame it all on the FEDS though, a lot of blame falls on the culture of litigation.

4. IIRC, a past publication from the Elliott Wavers traced existing financial de-regulation over the last 70 years or so to show the regulations are also indicators of social mood. Send me your email address via PM and I will see if I can find the pdf file of that issue or one that shows similar phenomena.
I agree with the EWers that Regulation/Deregulation are not causes of bull/bear market swings, both are effects. As social mood become more optimistic and people become less risk adverse, and people become ever more ready and willing to gamble with the rent money, elected officals/legislators (the ultimate measure of the crowd) comply by making it ever easier to gamble with the rent money . Few things encourage risky behaviour more than knowing safety nets exist/one will not bear the pain of their bad decisions. Too often, regulation is locking barn door after the horse is out.


I would think that disbanding the organizations you list would require at least 1 page of new legislation.

5. So many variables exist here, I don’t know where to start. Is some regulation required? Perhaps. How much? Who is to say? There has been less in the past, and whether “we” have been better off or worse off would depend on the personal stories one heard. This would require a case by case determination.

I am not at all sure what you mean by this: "does that mean you'd prefer to downgrade current civil and criminal law considerably or even abolish it entirely?" downgrade implies making something worse. As your cartoon implied, a well armed society is a very polite society. ;) Ask the convicted criminals if the they fear the long arm of the law more than a potential victim who is well armed. ;)

Short answer, I have the utmost confidence in individuals to behave well when they realize that they will reap what they sow, both in terms of enjoying the benefits of their good decisions/judgement, and suffering the consequences of their bad decisions/judgement. Too much insulation/protection destroys the feedback mechanisms that we all depend upon to stay on course.

How much is too much, and how much is not enough will always vary with each individual. How to help others without providing perverse incentives that encourage self-destruction or arrested development is always a judgement call. Best decided as close to the source as possible and on a specific case by case basis.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by Parodite »

Again thanks SM en Mr.P. Will get back to you later.
Deep down I'm very superficial
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by noddy »

more laws will fix it, im sure.
ultracrepidarian
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Monopoly

Post by Parodite »

noddy wrote:more laws will fix it, im sure.
Happen not to agree, maybe to your surprise. More a matter of a wrongly designed factory. Ok that's vague. Or rules applied in the wrong domains. The rules and role of govt that spill over in domains of free market where it does more harm than good. The rules and role of free market banking rigged by criminal intent of bank managers who lie and misinform about the products they sell in order to make you poorer and themselves richer, as theft.

SM, once again thanks for your thoughtful post. A lot in agreement re. government. Will say some more in general.

What it to me boils down to is perhaps the question of power concentration, of monopolies.

Governments are centers of power and although checked and renewed by a democratic process, they lack the cleansing effect of competition as in a free market economy. Hence they naturally tend to grow and grow, spend more and more. Irrespective of the Dems or Reps who hold office. How to keep govt small? In my view by adding something to the constitution that forces them to downsize a regular intervals. As weeding your garden is necessary, so must government be trimmed. Problem is that modern societies become more complex, the amount of services and products is staggering. Hard to manage/govern such a mushrooming growth of high resolution societies, one is very much also at the mercy of Murphy, of randomness and of complexity dynamics. I have no illusions that this can be or should be managed, controlled. Much is like the weather.

But not only government is a form of monopoly. The financial industry allowed via deregulation (or rather: a change of rules) big centers of financial power to arise that all tap from a newly formed non-compartmentalized pond of international capital worth hundreds of trillions of dollars. Like a building that previously had separated electrical circuits each with its own fuse to blow up without setting the entire building on fire... was now "deregulated" into a building with only one safety valve, one circuity with one fuse and one source of energy, that obviously means that this fuse became "too big to fail". If the King will go down, so will you.

The worst case scenario is of course when govt monopoly and financial monopoly find each other as mutual beneficiaries. This is what is happening right now. If governments don't freely co-operate with banks via legalized bribery, they will be hijacked as currently the German govt by German banks. This results ultimately in a total monopoly of the financial industry hat not only own govts, but ultimately the people, us. The only power is and will be money then. China understood that principle.

I think it is a deliberate lie to say that central govt is the only possible enemy of freedom, the only form of monopolized power. That is such a crazy thought that every true libertarian better dump as fast as possible in the trash bin.

There is only one way out as I see it: the bottom-up force of us in our democratic systems that are still reasonably intact. To force governments to stay put, remain small, don't interfere where they better don't - though not a simple issue and question - and take back control of the financial industry. The $$$ blood stream of our common economy is too important to leave it up to the banks how to organize and run it.
Deep down I'm very superficial
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by noddy »

this sounds awfully like the libertarian, local government you can control arguments and putting up with more control over less resources in favour of having less control over more resources.

aka, the age old centralisation, de-centralisation game.. diverse versus homogeneous.
I think it is a deliberate lie to say that central govt is the only possible enemy of freedom, the only form of monopolized power. That is such a crazy thought that every true libertarian better dump as fast as possible in the trash bin.
i think its a lie to say libertarians believe that.. i think the argument is more along the lines of nothing can garuntee freedom, except a motivated population, and even then, they can only change their local politics they cant change the world
ultracrepidarian
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5643
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by Parodite »

noddy wrote:this sounds awfully like the libertarian, local government you can control arguments and putting up with more control over less resources in favour of having less control over more resources.

aka, the age old centralisation, de-centralisation game.. diverse versus homogeneous.
Yes, seems to be just that. When too much power is centralized it tends to eat away local freedom. In the past violent revolutions were the only answer, now we have a democratic system and courts where in principle we can fight for a re-balance or optimum of sorts. I see no other option than using democracy to combat any monopoly emerging.
I think it is a deliberate lie to say that central govt is the only possible enemy of freedom, the only form of monopolized power. That is such a crazy thought that every true libertarian better dump as fast as possible in the trash bin.
i think its a lie to say libertarians believe that..


Well there are libertarians who call themselves libertarians and believe that. That there only is one enemy and it is central government. They to me seem more like opportunists who don't care what type of opportunity arises, as long as they can use their libertarian freedoms to use it and let nobody be in their way.
i think the argument is more along the lines of nothing can garuntee freedom, except a motivated population, and even then, they can only change their local politics they cant change the world
The financial monopolies that threaten our libertarian freedoms have managed to stay under the radar of public scrutiny and were and still are a near non-issue in the democratic process. Many people of course have no interest in that to happen, especially those quasi-libertarians with huge vested interests in those financial monopolies and who disguise their opportunism presenting themselves as freedom fighters in the name of liberty and just blame central government as a tactic.
Deep down I'm very superficial
noddy
Posts: 11326
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Liborgate

Post by noddy »

Parodite wrote:
noddy wrote:this sounds awfully like the libertarian, local government you can control arguments and putting up with more control over less resources in favour of having less control over more resources.

aka, the age old centralisation, de-centralisation game.. diverse versus homogeneous.
Yes, seems to be just that. When too much power is centralized it tends to eat away local freedom. In the past violent revolutions were the only answer, now we have a democratic system and courts where in principle we can fight for a re-balance or optimum of sorts. I see no other option than using democracy to combat any monopoly emerging.
I think it is a deliberate lie to say that central govt is the only possible enemy of freedom, the only form of monopolized power. That is such a crazy thought that every true libertarian better dump as fast as possible in the trash bin.
i think its a lie to say libertarians believe that..


Well there are libertarians who call themselves libertarians and believe that. That there only is one enemy and it is central government. They to me seem more like opportunists who don't care what type of opportunity arises, as long as they can use their libertarian freedoms to use it and let nobody be in their way.
i think the argument is more along the lines of nothing can garuntee freedom, except a motivated population, and even then, they can only change their local politics they cant change the world
The financial monopolies that threaten our libertarian freedoms have managed to stay under the radar of public scrutiny and were and still are a near non-issue in the democratic process. Many people of course have no interest in that to happen, especially those quasi-libertarians with huge vested interests in those financial monopolies and who disguise their opportunism presenting themselves as freedom fighters in the name of liberty and just blame central government as a tactic.
hmm. i think your on about the cock brothers thing which to me is an american oddity and i dont have much opinion on either way.

in my world the corporates hate state governments and are at the forefront of demanding federal takeovers.. from unified labour laws to unified tax laws, unified wages and unified environmental laws and such that make their admin life easier, the cynical viewpoint of which is "one stop place of corruption".

as for the far more serious problem of finanical mismanagement not being on any of our politicians radars.. well.. the population still wants all the rising house prices and endless growth magic being promised and doesnt want to put up with the higher interest rates and slower growth from not living on ever expanding debt..

if you are living week to week on credit and leveraged up to your eyeballs then you are extremely fragile against minor fluctuations of interest rates and downturns in employment.. the post depression generations before the boomers could have told you that.

eek, what do you mean save before you spend.. what a ghastly idea :P

some lessons get learnt the hard way every few generations and i fear we are in our learning curve.
Last edited by noddy on Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ultracrepidarian
Simple Minded

Re: Liborgate

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote: eek, what do you mean save before you spend.. what a ghastly idea :P

some lessons get learnt the hard way every few generations and i fear we are in our learning curve.
seems like its bout that time once again........
Mr. Perfect
Posts: 16973
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am

Re: Liborgate

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Sometimes it's just too late to learn. We are at that point I'm afraid.

Parodite. I read your posts and I keep trying to come up with something to exchange with you but I keep coming back simply to the thought that you are fighting the last war. It all came and went. Shoot a banker if you feel like it, it just won't change anything. The whole World burns.
Censorship isn't necessary
Post Reply