Hospital Pricing Data released

Now, what news on the Rialto?
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Enki
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Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Enki »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/0 ... 32678.html

It's pretty stunning. The same procedure can be $ 8k in the Bronx and $ 99k in New Jersey.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Mr. Perfect »

When you remove market incentives via the government don't be surprised at the results Tinker. Think of the lives your belief system has destroyed. How will you justify that at the judgement bar?
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by noddy »

this effect has been very strong in australia - partly the garunteed payments of the government medicare allowing some practices to extort the system but also the whole university degreed middle class training meme which has turned our nurses and other support staff into highly paid professionals.

its an interesting topic - the same people that cry that nurses deserve high wages and middle class life also bemoan the fact that australias health care costs are so high and medical tourism is starting to take off and poor people struggle to afford many operations.

its simple for me - it always comes back to cost of living and the huge turd that is FIRE economy housing religion... you need to pay your staff alot more to live in new jersey than the bronx i would imagine.
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Enki
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:this effect has been very strong in australia - partly the garunteed payments of the government medicare allowing some practices to extort the system but also the whole university degreed middle class training meme which has turned our nurses and other support staff into highly paid professionals.
Nurses should be highly trained professionals.
its an interesting topic - the same people that cry that nurses deserve high wages and middle class life also bemoan the fact that australias health care costs are so high and medical tourism is starting to take off and poor people struggle to afford many operations.
Here nursing is definitely not what is driving up medical costs. I thought y'all had socialized medicine there.
its simple for me - it always comes back to cost of living and the huge turd that is FIRE economy housing religion... you need to pay your staff alot more to live in new jersey than the bronx i would imagine.
I doubt a lot of medical staff actually live in the Bronx, and I also doubt that New Jersey is significantly more expensive than the Bronx. Depending on where you are. I am familiar with both places and real estate prices.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Azrael »

Mr. Perfect wrote:When you remove market incentives via the government don't be surprised at the results Tinker. Think of the lives your belief system has destroyed. How will you justify that at the judgement bar?
Do you think pricing disparities didn't exist before Obamacare? And how would Obamacare cause such disparities? You're grasping at straws.

If anything, the pricing disparities condemn the pre-Obamacare system.

Unless you have proof that the hospital in NJ was charging 8k right before Obamacare.
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Azrael
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

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noddy wrote:this effect has been very strong in australia - partly the garunteed payments of the government medicare allowing some practices to extort the system but also the whole university degreed middle class training meme which has turned our nurses and other support staff into highly paid professionals.

its an interesting topic - the same people that cry that nurses deserve high wages and middle class life also bemoan the fact that australias health care costs are so high and medical tourism is starting to take off and poor people struggle to afford many operations.
So do you think that nurses in the Bronx are paid lower class wages while the nurses in NJ are paid middle class wages? Do you have any evidence of this?
its simple for me - it always comes back to cost of living and the huge turd that is FIRE economy housing religion... you need to pay your staff alot more to live in new jersey than the bronx i would imagine.
What makes you think that the nurses who work in the Bronx all live in the Bronx? And are you aware that rents are very high in New York? And if you think that the Bronx is all ghetto you've obviously developed an opinion without doing the slightest bit of research. Some neighborhoods in the Bronx, including Riverdale, are high income areas with high rents and Fieldston in Riverdale is one of the wealthiest areas in New York City.

So, yeah, I'm sure the procedure only costs $8k in the Bronx because the nurses are paid like McDonalds employees. :lol:
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Enki »

Azrael wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:When you remove market incentives via the government don't be surprised at the results Tinker. Think of the lives your belief system has destroyed. How will you justify that at the judgement bar?
Do you think pricing disparities didn't exist before Obamacare? And how would Obamacare cause such disparities? You're grasping at straws.

If anything, the pricing disparities condemn the pre-Obamacare system.

Unless you have proof that the hospital in NJ was charging 8k right before Obamacare.
There's also the fact that Obamacare doesn't even start until 2014. Its critics like to conveniently ignore that part.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Thanks again for the epic and historic display of ignorance leftists, before Obamacare healthcare was 1/2 government (Medicare) and the rest was the most highly regulated industry in the country with 50 different regulatory bodies to answer to, choked with regulation to the point that the "private" side of it was dominated by the non-profit entities of Blue Cross.

The goal of said regulation was Cadillac Care, where the consumer was completely divorced from any sensitivity to the cost of care and price disparities like the ones huffington just stumbled across have been in the public domain for generations. Contrast it with say the car insurance market where you can call all around town and find car repair services financed by insurance companies to be within a few dollars, while hc services can vary by tens of thousands of dollars; why is that, hmmm.

Could be because the government allows what is called a CLAIMS ADJUSTOR in the car insurance market and no such thing in the hc market, in the name of protecting the consumer. The result has been the proliferation of procdures pushing six figures, pricing poor people out of the market, and causing premature death. But that's leftism, killing people in the name of saving them. Way to go leftists.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

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Mr. Perfect wrote:Thanks again for the epic and historic display of ignorance leftists, before Obamacare healthcare was 1/2 government (Medicare) and the rest was the most highly regulated industry in the country with 50 different regulatory bodies to answer to, choked with regulation to the point that the "private" side of it was dominated by the non-profit entities of Blue Cross.
We are still before Obamacare.
The goal of said regulation was Cadillac Care, where the consumer was completely divorced from any sensitivity to the cost of care and price disparities like the ones huffington just stumbled across have been in the public domain for generations. Contrast it with say the car insurance market where you can call all around town and find car repair services financed by insurance companies to be within a few dollars, while hc services can vary by tens of thousands of dollars; why is that, hmmm.
No argument here.
Could be because the government allows what is called a CLAIMS ADJUSTOR in the car insurance market and no such thing in the hc market, in the name of protecting the consumer. The result has been the proliferation of procdures pushing six figures, pricing poor people out of the market, and causing premature death. But that's leftism, killing people in the name of saving them. Way to go leftists.
Since you are the master of the facts, why don't you demonstrate a knowledge of death rates due to treatable illnesses before this situation occurred. I bet you have a good idea of the data.
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noddy
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by noddy »

Enki wrote:
noddy wrote:this effect has been very strong in australia - partly the garunteed payments of the government medicare allowing some practices to extort the system but also the whole university degreed middle class training meme which has turned our nurses and other support staff into highly paid professionals.
Nurses should be highly trained professionals.
fair enough - im somewhat moot on it all, i definately believe they shouldnt be struggling but im more concerned with the cost of living than the specific wages.
its an interesting topic - the same people that cry that nurses deserve high wages and middle class life also bemoan the fact that australias health care costs are so high and medical tourism is starting to take off and poor people struggle to afford many operations.
Here nursing is definitely not what is driving up medical costs. I thought y'all had socialized medicine there.
we do have socialised medicine and it pays for around 50% of the hospital bill you incurred - however human systems stabilise at what the customer can afford so the costs increased a fair bit when the customers payment ability doubled - plenty of arguments to be had on the blurry list of specific causes however th e many never understand the basic principle of market costs so its a frustrating and ugly business having these arguments.

i cannot and willnot reduce it to some wishy washy emotional argument about medical staff deserving better wages, is so much more than that going on.
its simple for me - it always comes back to cost of living and the huge turd that is FIRE economy housing religion... you need to pay your staff alot more to live in new jersey than the bronx i would imagine.
I doubt a lot of medical staff actually live in the Bronx, and I also doubt that New Jersey is significantly more expensive than the Bronx. Depending on where you are. I am familiar with both places and real estate prices.
my mistake for bringing local problems into american suburb costs - this was not my point.

my stance is that most of the west (and i thought new york) the real issue for most people who arent in the top percentiles is cost of living and the biggest chunk of cost of living is housing and to a lesser extent transport.

most of the price increases for the entire realm of workers in our hospitals in australia has been raising wages to cover ever escalating housing costs.

tackle housing and all sorts of things get cheaper but alas, house prices always go up and a nations with nothing else to invest in seem fixated on making this true.. no matter the cost to their children or the people that provide them essential services.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by noddy »

blergh - am running a fever at the moment and my usual rushed scribbles have deteriorated into incomprehensible.
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Enki
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

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I believe here it is administrative.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Simple Minded »

Enki wrote:I believe here it is administrative.
bingo!

While technically, Obamacare may not yet be in effect, people anticipate the future.

The cause of the reality of Obamacare regulations, and the cause of the expected effects of Obamacare regulation may produce contradictory effects.

As you have noted, the goal was not reduction of healthcare costs, it was to implement a single payer system. Sometimes people want "better," other times people want "equal."

Better or worse or equal for whom? Infinite amount of data available, and we all get pick the datapoints that make us feel good about our ideals.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Enki »

Simple Minded wrote:
Enki wrote:I believe here it is administrative.
bingo!

While technically, Obamacare may not yet be in effect, people anticipate the future.
The dishonest argument is that the passing of Obamacare fundamentally changed the trend that was already happening. Obamacare was created BECAUSE OF this stuff. Now people are acting like this criminal corruption in the medical industry can be blamed on Obamacare.
The cause of the reality of Obamacare regulations, and the cause of the expected effects of Obamacare regulation may produce contradictory effects.
No, Obamacare is the EFFECT of this corruption, not the cause of it. You have your timeline screwed up.
As you have noted, the goal was not reduction of healthcare costs, it was to implement a single payer system. Sometimes people want "better," other times people want "equal."
Yep.
Better or worse or equal for whom? Infinite amount of data available, and we all get pick the datapoints that make us feel good about our ideals.
We are in for a period of confusion until data sets are really properly analyzed. We're getting into this, and we're doing some pro bono work on public data sets, but it is a low priority. Eventually, when we are fully funded and can meet monthly payroll without a problem and have a larger workforce we'll be pushing this stuff out. I am expecting explosive growth in the things I'm involved with in the next year. Then doing data modeling of this kind of stuff will be much easier, and we can probably start tapping budgets. I've got an incredibly talented team, so when that's established and apparent a lot of the people who are currently interested in us and have access to big dollar funding will be wanting to work with us.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Simple Minded »

It would be interesting, and if I were more bored, I'd reseach it, to learn what are the disparities in procedure cost.

Are the people in NJ really so stupid as to pay 12X for the same product instead of just jumping in the car and driving to Brooklyn? What are they getting that makes them not drive to Brooklyn?
Is the procedure discussed a Yugo In Brooklyn and a Mercedes in NJ?
How does the disparity in health care costs in these two jurisdictions compare to the disparity in the price of housing per square foot? Income? Insurance plans purchased?
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Azrael »

Simple Minded wrote:It would be interesting, and if I were more bored, I'd reseach it, to learn what are the disparities in procedure cost.

Are the people in NJ really so stupid as to pay 12X for the same product instead of just jumping in the car and driving to Brooklyn? What are they getting that makes them not drive to Brooklyn?
They aren't paying for it out of their own pocket. Either they have insurance, or if they're too poor, the hospital or the government pays for it.

They do have to pay for the petrol to drive to Brooklyn out of their pocket.
Is the procedure discussed a Yugo In Brooklyn and a Mercedes in NJ?
Is there any reason to think that they would be? Is there any evidence that success rates are significantly higher in NJ?
How does the disparity in health care costs in these two jurisdictions compare to the disparity in the price of housing per square foot? Income? Insurance plans purchased?
Real estate in New York City tends to be much more expensive than real estate in New Jersey.
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Azrael
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Azrael »

Enki wrote:I believe here it is administrative.
Definitely. They probably make money on some procedures and lose money on others. Perhaps in NJ they charge a lot more for a particular procedure in order to make up for the money they lose on others (gun shot related injuries, etc.). The administrators decide what to overcharge for differently in different hospitals.

It has little to do with the actual cost of performing the procedure.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Mr. Perfect »

The government was screwing up hc long before Obamacare. Now we're going nuclear. People you know will die. And you will sacrifice them willingly, to your gods.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by noddy »

from a liberty perspective the entire premise is a tad illogical and mandated healthcare is mandated healthcare and the exact twisted mix of private and public is somewhat moot.

should the government be forced to takeover my lifestyle or the company i work for.. deary me.. how about neither.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

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Nobody forced the government to do anything; the government forcing everyone, another matter entirely.
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by YMix »

U.S. hospitals are among the biggest abusers, as illuminated in recent data released by Medicare on hospital charges for a variety of common procedures, as well as brand new findings by the Institute for Health and Socio-Economic Policy, the research arm of the National Nurses United, based on Medicare cost reports. (See charts here http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/)

The nurses’ data augments the Medicare findings, and goes the next step, illustrating a trend of rising high hospital charges while providing context to a very ugly picture and the deplorable impact on anyone who needs healthcare.

Here’s the sobering numbers:

* U.S. hospitals charge on average $331 dollars for every $100 of their total costs, in statistical terms a 331 percent charge to cost ratio.

* While hospital charges over costs have been climbing steadily over the past 15 years – the charges took their biggest leap ever in 2011– a 22 point vault.

* From 2009 to 2011 (the most recent year for which the data is available), hospital charges lunged upward by 16 percent, while hospital costs only increased by 2 percent.

* U.S. hospital profits, pushed upward by the high charges, hit a record $53.2 billion, while nurses see more and more hospitals cutting patient services and limiting access to care.

* One case study is California where hospitals soared past the national average with a charge to cost ratio of 451 percent, or $451 for every $100 of costs.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/05/17/ ... an-sharks/
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Re: Hospital Pricing Data released

Post by Mr. Perfect »

That's government for you.
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