Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

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monster_gardener
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Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by monster_gardener »

Many Thanks to the Moderators for Maintaining this forum.

Found this YouTube video in the comments on Gary Kasparov's Facebook post criticizing Bernie Sanders about socialism.......

Goes against what I often hear....... that minimum wage causes unemployment.....


But found it intriguing...........

More complicated as he admits.......

But worth listening to..........

bBx2Y5HhplI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBx2Y5HhplI

Longer version on TED
Nick Hanauer is a rich guy, an unrepentant capitalist — and he has something to say to his fellow plutocrats: Wake up! Growing inequality is about to push our societies into conditions resembling pre-revolutionary France. Hear his argument about why a dramatic increase in minimum wage could grow the middle class, deliver economic prosperity ... and prevent a revolution.
http://www.ted.com/talks/nick_hanauer_b ... on.ted.com

In May 2012, several online news outlets reported that Hanauer's March 1, 2012 TED talk[12] was not posted by TED Talks. In the short presentation he spoke about rising income inequality in the U.S., and the problems it may cause to future business ventures, as he feels that middle class consumers are far greater job creators than wealthy entrepreneurs like himself.[13][14][15] Thus he proposed the necessity for higher median incomes for workers rather than tax breaks for the wealthy, stating that if lower income tax rates for the wealthy really worked "we would be drowning in jobs", instead of unemployment being at current numbers.

Hat tip to Hocketing Dad elsewhere for posting about Gary Kasparov's comments
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

A fundamental flaw in Hanauer's logic is that a debt based economy is the opposite of capitalism.

Eliminate fractional reserve banking and we have a shot at capitalism. As long as currency is created at a multiple of debt, capital does not have a fighting chance.
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noddy
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by noddy »

im sorry, i have a prejudice against TED talks,they trigger some instinctive self defense mechanism reserved for marketing seminars and snake oil salesmen.

having said that, i feel obliged to say the same thing over and over and over because i fear its the crux of why discussions about 'capitalism' are fraught with dissonance.

for some of us capitalism is nothing more than a tool of exchange between people who are not friends and family and thusly morality and culture are completely seperate aspects of life, which makes blaming capitalism the same thing as blaming wheels for war because wheels let the war machines move.

as for how a 'multi culture' that 'seperates church from state' dictates the morality of disparate groups that quite often hate each other and forces them to support and nurture each other, thats the million dollar question.

does our political system get reduce to winner takes all between these groups with the one in power gorging itself on taxes until the next group gets a chance to feed ? :)


---

in australia minimum wage propably hasnt changed the unemployent ratio much - the mechanism for that argument requires a free market and ours is so tightly legislated across 3 layers of government that the minimum wage is nothing more than the guideline for lowest possible income before your better off on social security.

minimum wage has a builtin avoidance scheme called casual/part time employment.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Monster , all these arguments about Taxes and job creation a farce .. an intentional farce .. to fool Joe


Money in the hand of rich, is 2 fold


1 )

Money that rich put to work, by their doing, their creativity, like Steve Jobs .. they create wealth and good paying jobs and many other entrepreneurs .. That money, is the "TOOL", an ingredient, for realizing their idea .. they put the money where their mouth is, they take the risk.

That money, those Rich people, should not be taxed at all .. zero tax

As long as this people "live", they should pay no taxes whatsoever .. these individuals, by nature, are creators, they never retire .. they always at building, realizing their ideas.


2 )

The other sort of rich people, wealth holding people, like "Christy Walton & family", Jim Walton, and other "Parasites", they in reality a drag for the "Capitalist" system.

These people have "inherited" the wealth and contribute nothing to the system, society.


How should things changed ? ?

I have propagated that :

- "as long as an individual" lives, works, no matter what he/she does, he/she pays no taxes

- When an individual "passes away", dies, (say) maximum $ 100 m should go to the children (and wife), the rest should go to tax.

Meaning .. income tax totally eliminated .. replaced by "inheritance/gift tax" (and sales tax)

One makes as much money one can, keep all one make, spend whatever one wants (pay sales tax)

When one passes away, max so much go to children, the rest go to tax.

Very easy to implement, IRS can be cut 90%.


Raising taxes for ""Christy Walton & family", Jim Walton" would increase unemployment, not same as raising taxes for David Koch.

.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
noddy
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by noddy »

we nearly got that system in australia, an amazingly foolish man called John Hewson tried to replace all existing taxes with sales tax (GST)

he got destroyed at the polls, scare campaigns about all the special interest groups losing their pet incomes or sin taxes, too much change too fast for the rest .... which happens to be the exact point our politics is permanently broken.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

noddy wrote:.

we nearly got that system in australia, an amazingly foolish man called John Hewson tried to replace all existing taxes with sales tax (GST)

he got destroyed at the polls, scare campaigns about all the special interest groups losing their pet incomes or sin taxes, too much change too fast for the rest .... which happens to be the exact point our politics is permanently broken.

.


Eliminating all taxes and replace it with "Sales tax" , Consumption Tax .. is the best of the best

As long as one not consuming, not spending the money one has, in reality one is just "asset manager", a service to the society .. money not spend same as not having it.

Ultimate would be eliminating all taxes and just replacing it with "Sales tax".

All arguments AGAINST "Only Sales Tax" system is bogus

One can fine tune the "sale Tax" to social and other needs.

Monaco has no tax except only sales tax .. Russia too has a very simple (no ifs and buts) flat income tax (I think 15%) and SALES TAX.

Present American tax system made by crooks .. Hedge funds make billions by all kinds of "destructing" activity, bankrolled by easy FED money, and , they pay only 15% tax on their profit, classified as "Long Term Capital Gain", it ain't neither "capital gain" (as that is their business revenue), nor long term .. meaning that tax burden is shifted to Middle class paycheck earners.


.
noddy
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by noddy »

i totally agree.

eliminating one of the layers of government (federal or state) and replacing all tax with GST would go a huge way to fixing much of the west.

the problem is all the arguments required to get from here to there and the radical shakeup required for this to happen being beyond the scope of incremental changes as per our systems

we need a ghengis to come in and leave a pile of skulls - but also leave the new structure in place ;)
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by Simple Minded »

Consumption only tax! Amen.

This makes sense to me. http://fairtax.org/

They published a booklet explaining it several years ago. At one point (10 years ago?) it had 50+ sponsors in the House of Representatives.

My guess is the powers that be, find it too restrictive in terms of social engineering.
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by Zack Morris »

How does a consumption tax make sense? It disproportionately penalizes those who have to consume more, like the poor, and rewards dubious "investments", like locking up money in real estate, which has the unpleasant side effect of both raising prices for everyone else and incentivizing legislation that restricts new construction and re-zoning.
Simple Minded

Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by Simple Minded »

Zack Morris wrote:How does a consumption tax make sense? It disproportionately penalizes those who have to consume more, like the poor, and rewards dubious "investments", like locking up money in real estate, which has the unpleasant side effect of both raising prices for everyone else and incentivizing legislation that restricts new construction and re-zoning.
Here you go Zack:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Fair-Tax-Book ... 0060875496
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Zack Morris
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Re: Bubble Up Economics - Nick Hanauer's New Capitalism

Post by Zack Morris »

I've been hearing about flat taxes for years and don't want to read an advocacy book written by a conservative radio host. Since you read the book, why not answer the questions? "Fair" is a subjective term here. Why should consumption be penalized and more importantly, why is it in society's best interest to shift the bulk of the tax burden away from people who already spend a smaller fraction of their after-tax income to begin with?

Also worth pointing out that outside of the Baltics and Russia, no one uses a flat tax, so the authors have virtually no evidence to vouch for its efficacy, and we all know how important hard evidence -- rather than academic theory, fancy pants math, and computer models -- are to you :)
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