Capitalism and Its Discontents

Now, what news on the Rialto?
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Enki
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Enki »

I started to reply to you, halfway through I realized how monumentally stupid that post was and deleted my responses.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I'm endlessly fascinated that your material these days can be destroyed with stupid posts. Have you thought about what that might mean?
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Typhoon
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Typhoon »

Capiltalism is great . . . for the other guys.

Reuters | Taxed by the boss
Across the United States more than 2,700 companies are collecting state income taxes from hundreds of thousands of workers – and are keeping the money with the states’ approval, says an eye-opening report published on Thursday.

The report from Good Jobs First, a nonprofit taxpayer watchdog organization funded by Ford, Surdna and other major foundations, identifies 16 states that let companies divert some or all of the state income taxes deducted from workers’ paychecks. None of the states requires notifying the workers, whose withholdings are treated as taxes they paid.

General Electric, Goldman Sachs, Procter & Gamble, Chrysler, Ford, General Motors and AMC Theatres enjoy deals to keep state taxes deducted from their workers’ paychecks, the report shows. Foreign companies also enjoy such arrangements, including Electrolux, Nissan, Toyota and a host of Canadian, Japanese and European banks, Good Jobs First says.

Why do state governments do this? Public records show that large companies often pay little or no state income tax in states where they have large operations, as this column has documented. Some companies get discounts on property, sales and other taxes. So how to provide even more subsidies without writing a check? Simple. Let corporations keep the state income taxes deducted from their workers’ paychecks for up to 25 years.

It was not always this way. Letting companies keep their workers’ state taxes apparently began in Kentucky two decades ago as a way to retain jobs.
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Endovelico
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Endovelico »

Please, watch it to the end. That's what real leftists think when speaking of alternatives.

pJlXhYigqAQ
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:Capiltalism is great . . . for the other guys.

Reuters | Taxed by the boss
Excelleeent example of how the so called laissez faire/Free Market/capitalist system is anything but.......

Regulators are needed cause people aren't angels. Regulators are also people.

In a regulated market, spending your money on R&D, employee training, and capital investment, rather than buying politicians may put you at a huge disadvantage to your competitors who are buying political influence.

and the beat goes on.....
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by noddy »

you got the "left" with its big unions and government oversight departments who want protections and stability.
you got the "right" with its big corporates and official private contractors who want protections and stability.

regulations is the perfect mechanism for keeping both sides happy, they compromise on a new rule which makes both of them "essential" and create a storm of fear if anyone suggests otherwise.

the only people who want a free market and local community alternatives (an "uncorrupt" system:P) are those who arent on one of the above status-quo gravy machines..

in my country that used to be a magority and all was well, they arent anymore.. corporate or government jobs are the norm now so freedom is but an amusing bit of rhetoric from a bygone era, long since reinterpreted as something else ... hence all the confusion of facism versus communism, its both (depending on which gravy train you are on, or not...)
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Simple Minded wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Capiltalism is great . . . for the other guys.

Reuters | Taxed by the boss
Excelleeent example of how the so called laissez faire/Free Market/capitalist system is anything but.......

Regulators are needed cause people aren't angels. Regulators are also people.

In a regulated market, spending your money on R&D, employee training, and capital investment, rather than buying politicians may put you at a huge disadvantage to your competitors who are buying political influence.

and the beat goes on.....
I recall a study which found that investing in lobbying yields the best return on investment for companies.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Typhoon
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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noddy wrote:you got the "left" with its big unions and government oversight departments who want protections and stability.
you got the "right" with its big corporates and official private contractors who want protections and stability.

regulations is the perfect mechanism for keeping both sides happy, they compromise on a new rule which makes both of them "essential" and create a storm of fear if anyone suggests otherwise.

the only people who want a free market and local community alternatives (an "uncorrupt" system:P) are those who arent on one of the above status-quo gravy machines..

in my country that used to be a magority and all was well, they arent anymore.. corporate or government jobs are the norm now so freedom is but an amusing bit of rhetoric from a bygone era, long since reinterpreted as something else ... hence all the confusion of facism versus communism, its both (depending on which gravy train you are on, or not...)
Bingo.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Taxes Prompt More Americans to Renounce Citizenship

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47064295
Been busy doing stuff
Simple Minded

Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:
noddy wrote:you got the "left" with its big unions and government oversight departments who want protections and stability.
you got the "right" with its big corporates and official private contractors who want protections and stability.

regulations is the perfect mechanism for keeping both sides happy, they compromise on a new rule which makes both of them "essential" and create a storm of fear if anyone suggests otherwise.

the only people who want a free market and local community alternatives (an "uncorrupt" system:P) are those who arent on one of the above status-quo gravy machines..

in my country that used to be a magority and all was well, they arent anymore.. corporate or government jobs are the norm now so freedom is but an amusing bit of rhetoric from a bygone era, long since reinterpreted as something else ... hence all the confusion of facism versus communism, its both (depending on which gravy train you are on, or not...)
Bingo.
Amen!
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:you got the "left" with its big unions and government oversight departments who want protections and stability.
you got the "right" with its big corporates and official private contractors who want protections and stability.

regulations is the perfect mechanism for keeping both sides happy, they compromise on a new rule which makes both of them "essential" and create a storm of fear if anyone suggests otherwise.

the only people who want a free market and local community alternatives (an "uncorrupt" system:P) are those who arent on one of the above status-quo gravy machines..

in my country that used to be a magority and all was well, they arent anymore.. corporate or government jobs are the norm now so freedom is but an amusing bit of rhetoric from a bygone era, long since reinterpreted as something else ... hence all the confusion of facism versus communism, its both (depending on which gravy train you are on, or not...)
Everyone likes to reap the benefits of the free market when they are consumers. When they are producers, they want protection from those who are smarter, harder working, or operating in areas with lower fixed costs.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Simple Minded »

Typhoon wrote:Capiltalism is great . . . for the other guys.

Reuters | Taxed by the boss
Reminds me of the "Buy American!" PR campaigns of the late 70s/early 80s. And the "I love NY" "VA is for lovers!" type ads.

Last few years, I have heard a fair amount of "Buy Local!" advertising.

This also reminds me of voluntary charitible giving vs taxes. With a fixed tax rate of X%, and and with the option of the payer determining what percentage of their taxes, say 2% to 90% would go to each of the following areas, it would be interesting to see how individuals would choose to spend their money.

1. Federal Govt
2. State Govt
3. Local Govt
4. Local Business
5. Big Business
6. National Charities
7. Local Charities
8. UN
9. NGOs
10. ???

Not too hard to imagine the big beasts starving. And localities thriving.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Actually the left also looks after the big corporates and private contractors just as much if not more.
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Ammianus
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Ammianus »

noddy wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Capiltalism is great . . . for the other guys.

Reuters | Taxed by the boss
you got the "left" with its big unions and government oversight departments who want protections and stability.
you got the "right" with its big corporates and official private contractors who want protections and stability.

regulations is the perfect mechanism for keeping both sides happy, they compromise on a new rule which makes both of them "essential" and create a storm of fear if anyone suggests otherwise.

the only people who want a free market and local community alternatives (an "uncorrupt" system:P) are those who arent on one of the above status-quo gravy machines..

in my country that used to be a magority and all was well, they arent anymore.. corporate or government jobs are the norm now so freedom is but an amusing bit of rhetoric from a bygone era, long since reinterpreted as something else ... hence all the confusion of facism versus communism, its both (depending on which gravy train you are on, or not...)
I'm reminded of a anecdote where a guy got a big, bright light bulb on his head. Not satisfied with its size, number, luminosity and enthralled by the high of having one, he proceeded to bang his head vigorously on it in order to generate bigger and even brighter light bulbs. I have never heard the end result of his endeavor, but one can guess. One thing's for sure: that bulb ain't stronger than glass.
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Endovelico
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Endovelico »

This is what is good in capitalism... if you are a capitalist...

Image

I don't know whether there is much to do besides bringing the old lady back... :evil:

Image
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Doc »

Endovelico wrote:This is what is good in capitalism... if you are a capitalist...

Image

I don't know whether there is much to do besides bringing the old lady back... :evil:

Image
I take it the graph is for the US. What it does not show is foreign competition with cheap manual workers. It would be interesting to see that graph for the entire world.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I'd like to see the graph for Cuba, North Korea, Venezuala, Communist China, etc.
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Endovelico
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Endovelico »

Mr. Perfect wrote:I'd like to see the graph for Cuba, North Korea, Venezuala, Communist China, etc.
Would that change anything in the conclusions one may draw in respect of the US? Will the gap between productivity and real wages be any smaller or less meaningful? The fact is that since 1975 capital has highjacked productivity gains for their exclusive benefit. Capitalism may be good at improving efficiency and quality of goods produced, but it's no good for the common worker.
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Doc
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Doc »

Endovelico wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I'd like to see the graph for Cuba, North Korea, Venezuala, Communist China, etc.
Would that change anything in the conclusions one may draw in respect of the US? Will the gap between productivity and real wages be any smaller or less meaningful? The fact is that since 1975 capital has highjacked productivity gains for their exclusive benefit. Capitalism may be good at improving efficiency and quality of goods produced, but it's no good for the common worker.
LIke I said it is all more and more relative to the rest of the world and the global economy. You can get rid of globalism and condemn 5/6ths of the human race to poverty. Or you can open things up and find that Productivity needs to be ramped up considerably to stay in the same place. Capitalism is no good for the common worker when it changes faster than the common worker can or cares to learn new skills. I have sympathy for workers who cannot keep up. I have none for workers who would rather have a meaningless job pushing a broom in a factory than learn something new.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Endovelico
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Endovelico »

Doc wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I'd like to see the graph for Cuba, North Korea, Venezuala, Communist China, etc.
Would that change anything in the conclusions one may draw in respect of the US? Will the gap between productivity and real wages be any smaller or less meaningful? The fact is that since 1975 capital has highjacked productivity gains for their exclusive benefit. Capitalism may be good at improving efficiency and quality of goods produced, but it's no good for the common worker.
LIke I said it is all more and more relative to the rest of the world and the global economy. You can get rid of globalism and condemn 5/6ths of the human race to poverty. Or you can open things up and find that Productivity needs to be ramped up considerably to stay in the same place. Capitalism is no good for the common worker when it changes faster than the common worker can or cares to learn new skills. I have sympathy for workers who cannot keep up. I have none for workers who would rather have a meaningless job pushing a broom in a factory than learn something new.
Doc, if productivity has gone up one may consider that at least part of that increase has been due to more efficient work. So, it would be expected that some of the rise in value should go to benefit the workers who made it possible. A flat wage line and a steep increase in productivity can never be justified. Productivity is equal to the value created by worker employed, so one may not ignore the workers input.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Doc »

Endovelico wrote:
Doc wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I'd like to see the graph for Cuba, North Korea, Venezuala, Communist China, etc.
Would that change anything in the conclusions one may draw in respect of the US? Will the gap between productivity and real wages be any smaller or less meaningful? The fact is that since 1975 capital has highjacked productivity gains for their exclusive benefit. Capitalism may be good at improving efficiency and quality of goods produced, but it's no good for the common worker.
LIke I said it is all more and more relative to the rest of the world and the global economy. You can get rid of globalism and condemn 5/6ths of the human race to poverty. Or you can open things up and find that Productivity needs to be ramped up considerably to stay in the same place. Capitalism is no good for the common worker when it changes faster than the common worker can or cares to learn new skills. I have sympathy for workers who cannot keep up. I have none for workers who would rather have a meaningless job pushing a broom in a factory than learn something new.
Doc, if productivity has gone up one may consider that at least part of that increase has been due to more efficient work. So, it would be expected that some of the rise in value should go to benefit the workers who made it possible. A flat wage line and a steep increase in productivity can never be justified. Productivity is equal to the value created by worker employed, so one may not ignore the workers input.
It has mostly been due to automation. Something that has greatly increased since the 1970's and is expected to increase dramatically world wide in the next 16 years. In fact to the tune of 3 billion *with a "B"* jobs that currently exist going away. This does not have to be a bad thing but leadership world wide seems to be asleep at the switch on this one. This is going to have to take some thought to keep it from being extremely destabilizing.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Endovelico wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:I'd like to see the graph for Cuba, North Korea, Venezuala, Communist China, etc.
Would that change anything in the conclusions one may draw in respect of the US? Will the gap between productivity and real wages be any smaller or less meaningful? The fact is that since 1975 capital has highjacked productivity gains for their exclusive benefit. Capitalism may be good at improving efficiency and quality of goods produced, but it's no good for the common worker.
There are tremendous problems with that chart which I do not have time to get into.
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Enki
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Enki »

noddy wrote:you got the "left" with its big unions and government oversight departments who want protections and stability.
you got the "right" with its big corporates and official private contractors who want protections and stability.

regulations is the perfect mechanism for keeping both sides happy, they compromise on a new rule which makes both of them "essential" and create a storm of fear if anyone suggests otherwise.

the only people who want a free market and local community alternatives (an "uncorrupt" system:P) are those who arent on one of the above status-quo gravy machines..

in my country that used to be a magority and all was well, they arent anymore.. corporate or government jobs are the norm now so freedom is but an amusing bit of rhetoric from a bygone era, long since reinterpreted as something else ... hence all the confusion of facism versus communism, its both (depending on which gravy train you are on, or not...)

Translation: People look out for their own interests.

Stunning insight dood!
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Enki
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Enki »

Doc wrote:
Endovelico wrote:This is what is good in capitalism... if you are a capitalist...

Image

I don't know whether there is much to do besides bringing the old lady back... :evil:

Image
I take it the graph is for the US. What it does not show is foreign competition with cheap manual workers. It would be interesting to see that graph for the entire world.
Indeed.

It will also be interesting to watch over the next several decades as even cheap outsourced labor is replaced by automation.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Endovelico
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Endovelico »

You guys have a point on what concerns automation. I don't know exactly how to handle that, but I'm not convinced that the whole productivity gain should go to capital. Maybe the answer involves that hobbyhorse of mine, cooperatives...
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