Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Typhoon
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Typhoon »

Nonc Hilaire wrote: . . . Online trading lowered costs and commissions a great deal, but I have not seen any appreciable benefit from HFT.
Quite right. The two are different, with the former lowering commissions and the latter front-running trades.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Business Insider, by Andrew Haigney who is not just a peep-peep mouse not knowingesth what he is talking about:
Andrew Haigney

Andrew has more than 25 years of investment industry experience. Prior to founding the Association of Independent Investors, Andrew was Managing Director at EL CAP, Inc., an investment consulting firm based in Charlotte, Vermont.

Andrew spent the bulk of his career at Merrill Lynch where he was First Vice President for Institutional Equity Sales based in Boston. At Merrill Lynch his clients included mutual funds, hedge funds, registered investment advisers, banks and trust companies. Prior to joining Merrill Lynch in 1994, he was Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer at Haigney Securities, Inc., a full reserve broker-dealer. At Haigney Securities, Andrew ran the firm’s proprietary and agency trading desks and oversaw all financial and regulatory filings. Andrew began his career as an equity trader at L.F. Rothschild Unterberg Towbin in 1986. Andrew has held Series 7, 63 & 65 designations from the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority (FINRA).
High Frequency Trading: A Liquidity Hoax

Andrew Haigney, El CAP

Proponents of high-frequency trading claim that their trading activity increases market liquidity. The idea that high-frequency trading adds liquidity to the markets is pure folklore, these proponents seem to confuse indiscriminate high speed trading for genuine liquidity.

The NYSE Euronext defines liquidity as, “Depth of market to absorb buy and sell interest of even large orders at prices appropriate to supply and demand... Liquidity is one of the most important characteristics of a good market.”

Years ago I made markets in illiquid over-the-counter securities, these were companies that had very few shares outstanding and traded by “appointment only.” One stock that I traded was Nantucket Electric Co., which generated and distributed electricity to the island of Nantucket. There were only 28,000 shares outstanding and they traded very infrequently.

In the early 1990s I bought 75 shares of Nantucket Electric. I re-offered the shares to investors that had an interest in the company and didn’t get any bids. To get rid of the stock I resorted to placing an advertisement in the local Nantucket newspaper. Fortunately a vacationing hotshot investment banker from New York bought the stock so he could have the certificate framed for his office.

Unlike the illiquid over-the-counter securities that I traded, trading on the New York Stock Exchange has always been known as the most liquid market in the world. For centuries stocks changed hands on the NYSE via a double auction system with specialists and traders matching buyers and sellers.

High-Frequency Trading

Regulatory changes in the 2000s did away with the specialist system and gave birth to new alternative trading systems or ATSs. These virtual electronic exchanges compete with each other as well as with the existing exchanges, which also adopted electronic trading systems. With these changes came a new way of trading securities that has become known as high-frequency trading.

High-frequency traders use ultra high speed computers to identify and execute trades and are capable of executing thousands of trades a second across various exchanges. This rapid fire trading generates nominal per share profits but the volume is so large that it’s highly profitable. It’s estimated that 50-75% of total equity trading volume is attributed to high-frequency trading. These traders include large well- known investment banks and hedge funds, as well as lesser-known trading firms.

In days gone by, broker-dealers and investment firms were located close to stock exchanges for logistic reasons, trades were settled by physically exchanging certificates and payments via runners. Today, high-frequency traders seek to get their computer equipment installed as close to or in some cases co- located in the exchanges or ATSs in order to trim a millisecond or two off their execution times. High- frequency trading is all about speed. A millisecond is an eternity in the world of high-frequency trading, by way of context it takes the average person about 300 – 400 milliseconds to blink.

Illusion of Liquidity

High-frequency traders don’t absorb securities for a meaningful amount of time, they typically only commit capital for a matter of moments before they indiscriminately sell the securities right back in the market place. Unlike my Nantucket Electric trade, where I held, or absorbed, the stock in our firm’s trading account until I could find a buyer, high-frequency traders often buy and resell the same securities to each other until they eventually get into the hands of a fundamental investor. The SEC/CFTC Flash Crash Report describes this rapid fire back and forth trading activity as the “hot potato volume effect.”

High- frequency traders may help facilitate order execution, but make no mistake, they don’t provide true liquidity to the market place.

High-frequency trading played a central role in the May 6th flash crash. These trading systems are programmed to quickly detect unusual trading activity and automatically shut down (which is what happened during the flash crash). In other words, when the markets need liquidity the most high- frequency traders head for the hills. Abruptly pulling the plug on this kind of high volume trading at a time of market stress is highly destabilizing and creates violent market swings, ultimately damaging investor confidence.

High-frequency traders are extremely secretive about how their proprietary systems work. It’s ironic that the regulatory changes that swept in the era of high-frequency trading were chiefly driven by large mutual funds that claimed that the NYSE specialist system was unfair and not transparent. Fidelity Investments’ Edward “Ned” Johnson was one of the most vocal critics of the NYSE specialist system (at the time of the changes Fidelity accounted for about 3-5% of NYSE trading volume).

Fidelity and other large mutual funds companies pushed for the changes largely as a way to improve their funds’ investment returns by cutting costs at a time when low cost index funds were quickly gaining acceptance. Additionally, many actively managed mutual funds attracted so many assets that their portfolios had become unmanageable and the new high tech trading systems promised to improve liquidity.

From our perspective, high-frequency traders don’t bring anything to the party. Trading volume for the sake of trading volume or the speed at which high-frequency traders can trade with each other shouldn’t be mistaken for real liquidity. High-frequency trading is far less transparent than the old specialist system and undermines the stability of our markets.

High-frequency trading is very profitable for trading firms with unlimited technology budgets, however we fail to see how fundamental investors genuinely benefit from this activity. Turning the equity markets into a high stakes video game doesn’t create real liquidity. Personally, I’d much rather trade an odd-lot of Nantucket Electric than sit in front of a computer screen all day while it spits out tens of thousands of seemingly mindless trades.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Typhoon wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote: . . . Online trading lowered costs and commissions a great deal, but I have not seen any appreciable benefit from HFT.
Quite right. The two are different, with the former lowering commissions and the latter front-running trades.
Quite false.

Do you guys even know what a bid ask spread is. Do you know where it comes from. Do you know who makes a bid ask spread.

Large scale traders could give a rip about a broker commission, the chief cost concern is the spread. Online brokers HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BID ASK SPREAD. THE BID ASK SPREAD IS COMPLETELY FROM MARKET MAKERS, WHO THE HFT WORK WITH NOT AMERITRADE.

HFT IS AN ARBING PROCESS THAT HAS REDUCED BID ASK SPREADS BY SOME 90% OVER THE LAST DECADE AND A HALF.

No offense, but you guys HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Please, in the name of everything you hold holy, please explain how lighting fast trades/instant fills and nonexistent spreads are bad. PLEASE IN THE NAME OF SPORTS ILLUSTRATED PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE TELL ME HOW INSTANT FILLS AND NONEXISTENT SPREADS ARE BAD.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Parodite wrote:Business Insider, by Andrew Haigney who is not just a peep-peep mouse not knowingesth what he is talking about:
P, please tell me how 15 years ago it could take minutes, tens of minutes, or half an hour to move several thousand shares, now it takes an instant.

How did that happen. I can tell you, but can you tell me.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:Mr. P, it isn't about you. The public arguments against HFT and associated automated trading algorithms are persuasive and convincing,
They haven't even formed yet. You haven even formed a coherent argument yet. There is no evidence that you even know what HFT is and how it operates. In America you are innocent until proven guilty by due process, and so far, you have not even presented a case against hft, let alone one that convicts beyond reasonable doubt. Therefore, I have no obligation to defend myself since no You guys are asking me to make the case against hft and then defend it, because you have not made any case whatsoever against hft, you don't even understand what it is, let alone what floor trading is.

I don't make the case against hft because there is no case to be made. I'm creative guy and I cannot come up with a single bad thing to say against hft. I can't think of anything. So I cannot defend against charges that don't even exist.
and I am not familiar with a single voice in or out of the industry disputing this analysis.
You are not familiar with many voices then.
I was hoping you would make an understandable apologetic for the HFT automated trading crowd. I can see how skimming pennies off each trade helps the guy who owns the computer, but I don't see any benefit for the average investor. Online trading lowered costs and commissions a great deal, but I have not seen any appreciable benefit from HFT.
ONLINE TRADING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BID ASK SPREAD OR SPEED OF FILLS.

I've made the apologetic a dozen times. This why you guys are driving me bonkers these days, i explaine myself over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and what I say is ignored over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. That is my supporting arguments. What I say is often pored over more than any other poster but when I get into supporting things you guys turn your brains off. Then you complain that I don't do long soliloquies anymore. Why would I? You all just ignore it.

Look at Zack Morris. Look at all the writing he did. That takes a lot of time. You guys didn't read it. He spent a LOT of time writing stuff and frankl even thought there were mistakes which I allow him as an amateur, he settled the issue, if you just goog the stuff you don't understand.

And you didn't read it. I've done probably a dozen trading threads on these forums, and they fizzle right out. You guys just don't get it. I don't know why. I'm an durian, ask anyone and yet am a world leading expert on these topics. I dream of option positions in my sleep that no one has heard of before. And I a TEEEEAAAABBBAAAAAGGGEEEEERRR that votes REEEPPPUUBBBLICANNNN and I am orders of magnitude beyond where you guys are. How am I supposed to talk to you?

I've already said it a dozen times.

HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).
HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).
HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).
HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).
HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).
HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).
HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).
HFT results in faster fills and lower costs (*talking slowly* that is BID ASK SPREAD not your Ameritrade nick).

When you're moving thousands of shares then a 50 cent spread is a big deal vs a 5 cent spread. HFT produced the 5 cent spread BENEFITTING THE RETAIL INVESTOR. STOP TRYING TO HARM THE RETAIL INVESTOR WHY IN THE NAME OF EVERYTHING HOLY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Marcus wrote:Some few years back, a family member lost 5k in a matter of seconds while attempting a stock transaction online.

He sold all his stocks and paid cash for a rent house which now nets him between 5%-8% on his investment while increasing in value.
A lot of family members lost more than 50% on their rent houses a few years back.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Parodite wrote:high-frequency-trading--a-liquidity-hoax-

Proponents of high-frequency trading claim that their trading activity increases market liquidity. The idea that high-frequency trading adds liquidity to the markets is pure folklore.
High-frequency trading played a central role in the May 6th flash crash. These trading systems are programmed to quickly detect unusual trading activity and automatically shut down (which is what happened during the flash crash). In other words, when the markets need liquidity the most high- frequency traders head for the hills.
Sounds like maybe hft does provide liquidity.

Looks like you'll need another authority to appeal to.
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Parodite
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Such a pity Mr.P., that there are people with more experience and better credentials than you who disagree with you. You can claim you explained things over and over.. but that's a lie. You in fact never responded in detail to the various controversies and criticisms re HFT.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Parodite wrote:Such a pity Mr.P., that there are people with more experience and better credentials than you who disagree with you. You can claim you explained things over and over.. but that's a lie. You in fact never responded in detail to the various controversies and criticisms re HFT.
I think Mr. P has made it clear. He thinks this is an argument and not a discussion.
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Marcus
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Marcus wrote:Some few years back, a family member lost 5k in a matter of seconds while attempting a stock transaction online.

He sold all his stocks and paid cash for a rent house which now nets him between 5%-8% on his investment while increasing in value.
A lot of family members lost more than 50% on their rent houses a few years back.
Not up here, Mr. P . . Alaska is relatively immune to some of what goes on in the lower-48. The only thing we knew about the housing bubble is what we heard on the national news.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Parodite wrote:Such a pity Mr.P., that there are people with more experience and better credentials than you who disagree with you.
The "authority" you brought to the table, who never traded on the floor in his life, directly and fundamentally contradicted himself right out of the gate. That is your fault, not mine.

And he has far less experience and credentials than I do.
You can claim you explained things over and over.. but that's a lie.
No it isn't. Hft has made trading cheaper and faster than at any time in human history. And that is the truth and it is the definition of creating real value. Why you want to make trading slower and more expensive for the guy on the street boggles the mind. This is your fault not mine. I want trading to be cheap and fast for the man on the street.

In this discussion you are the anti-science creationist P. You no longer have any claim to championing science.
You in fact never responded in detail to the various controversies and criticisms re HFT.
I'm waiting to hear of a real controversy or criticism of hft. So far haven't found one. I'll I hear about is "rigging" and "front loading". If rigging and front loading result in the lowest spreads in history and fasted fills then I am all for loading and rigging, bring it on. And what is rigging anyway, somebody define that. If a stock is trading at 50 by 50.04 then someone tell me without hft what it would be trading at.

BTW you guys never ever ever answer these questions because you can't. You have no idea what you're talking about.

The one you just brought to the table directly and fundamentally contradicted himself. My guess is he is a Democrat, east coast financiers are largely Democrats.
Last edited by Mr. Perfect on Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Parodite wrote:Such a pity Mr.P., that there are people with more experience and better credentials than you who disagree with you. You can claim you explained things over and over.. but that's a lie. You in fact never responded in detail to the various controversies and criticisms re HFT.
I think Mr. P has made it clear. He thinks this is an argument and not a discussion.
A discussion never started, so an argument is all you have left. You guys are out with the hatchets attacking the crops and I am doing anything I can to prevent the damage you are doing. I've asked you over and over again to explain in your own words what hft is and something wrong with, that you can back yourself, and you have failed completely to participate in that discussion.

HFT has made trading cheaper and faster than aver, and you have "discussed" nothing that contradicts this. In fact everything you have typed has only revealed your grave ignorance of the subject matter. You guys can't even tell the difference between a commission and a bid ask spread. You guys are not even qualified to buy a stock online, let alone have an opinion of hft. In fact I can't imagine you have even ever traded a share of stock yourself.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Marcus wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Marcus wrote:Some few years back, a family member lost 5k in a matter of seconds while attempting a stock transaction online.

He sold all his stocks and paid cash for a rent house which now nets him between 5%-8% on his investment while increasing in value.
A lot of family members lost more than 50% on their rent houses a few years back.
Not up here, Mr. P . . Alaska is relatively immune to some of what goes on in the lower-48. The only thing we knew about the housing bubble is what we heard on the national news.
Fair enough.

FYI the stock market has made me wealthier than my wildest imaginings.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:Mr. P, it isn't about you. The public arguments against HFT and associated automated trading algorithms are persuasive and convincing, and I am not familiar with a single voice in or out of the industry disputing this analysis.
People in the industry do dispute this analysis. Vigorously so.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Nonc Hilaire wrote: I was hoping you would make an understandable apologetic for the HFT automated trading crowd. I can see how skimming pennies off each trade helps the guy who owns the computer, but I don't see any benefit for the average investor. Online trading lowered costs and commissions a great deal, but I have not seen any appreciable benefit from HFT.
The point Mr. P is trying to make is basically this: do you want market makers skimming pennies (HFT) or dollars (the old days) off of your trades?
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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There is no question that spreads have been lowered by HFT. But there is still the more difficult matter of transaction costs. By transaction costs, I mean adverse price movements against you as a result of your participation in the market, not fees imposed by your broker, spreads, or anything like that. I explained this as merely the cost of doing business for getting better spreads and overall better prices.

But it is perhaps the case that front-running needlessly drives up prices in the short run by exposing obvious deficiencies in exchange infrastructure. And the costs associated with this may outweigh the savings in reduced spreads. This is a much more nuanced and difficult debate because it touches upon the very nature of efficient markets. If there is really a problem here, it is an easily solvable one and shouldn't require government intervention. If the allegation is that scalpers are ripping you off and costing you money, then by golly, that smells like a business opportunity to devise a better exchange. After all, exchanges function under fairly arbitrary rules and there are plenty of different ways they could be implemented. The financial titans whining the most about HFT are certainly not defenseless against a few computer nerds with zero political clout. I don't think they need anyone here to carry water for them.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Parodite wrote:Zack, how easy/difficult is not nowadays to use a hedge fund for a Ponzi-scheme? Let's say I want to use illiquid assets I can inflate easily for that purpose and relatively long term.. what type would you recommend? Is it possible to hold a huge bulk of derivatives "stock" for that purpose?
I don't know anything about this. You'd have to ask a savvy financial lawyer. But I don't think it's easy. Hedge funds do have reporting requirements and reputation is important in the industry. Also, hedge funds rely on their prime brokers and custodian banks to borrow funds and securities, get market access, and safely hold securities. A lot of people would have to be fooled.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Zack Morris wrote:There is no question that spreads have been lowered by HFT. But there is still the more difficult matter of transaction costs. By transaction costs, I mean adverse price movements against you as a result of your participation in the market, not fees imposed by your broker, spreads, or anything like that. I explained this as merely the cost of doing business for getting better spreads and overall better prices.

But it is perhaps the case that front-running needlessly drives up prices in the short run by exposing obvious deficiencies in exchange infrastructure. And the costs associated with this may outweigh the savings in reduced spreads.
This is a much more nuanced and difficult debate because it touches upon the very nature of efficient markets. If there is really a problem here, it is an easily solvable one and shouldn't require government intervention. If the allegation is that scalpers are ripping you off and costing you money, then by golly, that smells like a business opportunity to devise a better exchange. After all, exchanges function under fairly arbitrary rules and there are plenty of different ways they could be implemented. The financial titans whining the most about HFT are certainly not defenseless against a few computer nerds with zero political clout. I don't think they need anyone here to carry water for them.
Perhaps you have a few examples of this.

As someone who has traded actively for over 2 decades trading costs (that means SPREADS) are so low now I don't even think about them. In the old days gaming the spread was part of the whole process, now I just normally go a penny or two inside, just for fun, and get filled instantly. HFT was brought sort of a nirvana.

The biggest stock market problem is STPN.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Welcome to the Oligarchy – United States Leads the Developed World in Share of Low Wage Jobs
Michael Krieger - Posted Monday Sep 22, 2014 at 1:45 pm

In an apparent attempt to advise investors on how they can take advantage of America’s transformation into a neo-feudal oligarchy in a 50 page research report, Morgan Stanley has put together some very interesting charts that were highlighted earlier today by MarketWatch.

While I suggest taking a look through all of the charts, none of them is more telling and depressing than the one that shows how the U.S. leads the developed world in the share of low wage jobs. See below:

Image

Of course, this shouldn’t come as any surprise to readers. I have covered the death of America’s middle-class for many years now, most notably in the post from last summer: How Does America’s Middle Class Rank Globally? #27.

As the middle-class has been destroyed, and the poor placated temporarily by various government benefits, the oligarchy has had free reign to thieve and expand its wealth at a dizzying pace. The Federal Reserve fueled stock market has been a key tool in the process of keeping the 1% silent, as the chart below demonstrates:

Image

While I can’t say the above is surprising, it certainly seems to confirm my prior contention that the stock market is merely: Food Stamps for the 1%.

U.S. policy is all about keeping the 99.9% quiet and distracted, while the oligarchs strip-mine the nation. Unfortunately, that strategy is working.

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http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/09/22 ... wage-jobs/
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by noddy »

the low wage graph means nothing without the unemployment graph interleaved.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Endovelico »

noddy wrote:the low wage graph means nothing without the unemployment graph interleaved.
If we were to go back to slavery, there would be no unemployment... :D
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:the low wage graph means nothing without the unemployment graph interleaved.
If we were to go back to slavery, there would be no unemployment... :D
that seems to be the socialist plan.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:the low wage graph means nothing without the unemployment graph interleaved.
If we were to go back to slavery, there would be no unemployment... :D
that seems to be the socialist plan.
noddy,

So you think ending envy would not be a good thing.........? ;)
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

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FT - Wolf | Why inequality is such a drag on economies
Big divides in wealth and power have hollowed out republics before and could do so again
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