Capitalism and Its Discontents

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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby YMix » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:57 am

noddy wrote:on a more serious note, patent law is one of those broken things noone seems to have the balls to fix.


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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Mr. Perfect » Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:08 am

YMix wrote:
noddy wrote:does the pharma-suit-icles industry actually have any capitalism in it ?

i wasnt aware of it , i thought they where the poster boys of corrupt relationships with government and abuse of the legal system.


I thought that was capitalism. :)

And you would be wrong. If you understood capitalism you would probably join us. I have some books for you when you are ready.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby YMix » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:33 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:And you would be wrong. If you understood capitalism you would probably join us. I have some books for you when you are ready.


What if I'm not wrong?
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby noddy » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:34 am

if your not wrong then words like fascism and oligarchy and corruption dont mean anything, which is nice.

in the university economics course i did they taught us that when you only had a few players (oligopoly) or less than that (duopoly,monopoly) then its no longer a proper capitalist market and starts to behave awfully fascist/communist.

big pharma is a text book example of an oligoply of established players which have total lockin with government legislation and almost zero chance of a new player breaking the status quo or competing fairly on a product by product basis.

aka, not capitalist.

however im more than aware that for some people capitalism means oligarchs, i just think that you should call oligarchs, oligarchs.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Zack Morris » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:40 am

noddy wrote:if your not wrong then words like fascism and oligarchy and corruption dont mean anything, which is nice.

in the university economics course i did they taught us that when you only had a few players (oligopoly) or less than that (duopoly,monopoly) then its no longer a proper capitalist market and starts to behave awfully fascist/communist.

big pharma is a text book example of an oligoply of established players which have total lockin with government legislation and almost zero chance of a new player breaking the status quo or competing fairly on a product by product basis.

aka, not capitalist.

however im more than aware that for some people capitalism means oligarchs, i just think that you should call oligarchs, oligarchs.


Oligopolies, duopolies, and monopolies are all natural occurrences in a capitalist system (and do not require government to exist). They arise from human behavior and the constraints within which we operate. Perfect competition is not the equilibrium state for many (most?) enterprises, especially those where a high degree of differentiation exists. Capitalism is merely the system where capital is privately owned and employed with voluntary labor to produce profits that are then distributed to owners and labor according to consensual, mutual agreements. No guarantees, implied or express, about the fairness and equity of such arrangements.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby noddy » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:12 am

Zack Morris wrote:
noddy wrote:if your not wrong then words like fascism and oligarchy and corruption dont mean anything, which is nice.

in the university economics course i did they taught us that when you only had a few players (oligopoly) or less than that (duopoly,monopoly) then its no longer a proper capitalist market and starts to behave awfully fascist/communist.

big pharma is a text book example of an oligoply of established players which have total lockin with government legislation and almost zero chance of a new player breaking the status quo or competing fairly on a product by product basis.

aka, not capitalist.

however im more than aware that for some people capitalism means oligarchs, i just think that you should call oligarchs, oligarchs.


Oligopolies, duopolies, and monopolies are all natural occurrences in a capitalist system (and do not require government to exist). They arise from human behavior and the constraints within which we operate. Perfect competition is not the equilibrium state for many (most?) enterprises, especially those where a high degree of differentiation exists. Capitalism is merely the system where capital is privately owned and employed with voluntary labor to produce profits that are then distributed to owners and labor according to consensual, mutual agreements. No guarantees, implied or express, about the fairness and equity of such arrangements.


their are no final solutions, are no endless perfections, im not sure any of this is has ever been claimed by anyone, barring some overly keen university students muttering naive gibberish.

when the market reduces to an oligopoloy/duopoly/monopoly that is tightly integrated with government via laws and dodgy dealings then its not called capitalism any more.

if the companies have the power its called oligarchy and if the government has the power its called fascism.. why do we have these words if not to differentiate from the free market state of healthy capitalism ?

you are quite correct that sometimes the government (via people power?) need to step in a slap an aggressive monopolist but othertimes it is the corrupt relationship between these players which has strengthended the monopoly in the first place.

<<lots of dissonance about when fortresses are actually prisons goes ere>>

right now in my country people power and capitalism are eating into the oligopoly control that supermarkets have enjoyed for the last few decades as local growers markets and independant operators have grown, many in the grey areas of law.

its a shame the communications and transport systems are not allowed that level of competition :/
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Simple Minded » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:12 am

I think the solution is more regulation that everyone thinks is fair.... :shock:
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Zack Morris » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:23 pm

noddy wrote:big pharma is a text book example of an oligoply of established players which have total lockin with government legislation and almost zero chance of a new player breaking the status quo or competing fairly on a product by product basis.


Not really. How do you explain all the small biotech firms focusing on a particular kind of therapy? The stock market is full of them.

their are no final solutions, are no endless perfections, im not sure any of this is has ever been claimed by anyone, barring some overly keen university students muttering naive gibberish.

when the market reduces to an oligopoloy/duopoly/monopoly that is tightly integrated with government via laws and dodgy dealings then its not called capitalism any more.

if the companies have the power its called oligarchy and if the government has the power its called fascism.. why do we have these words if not to differentiate from the free market state of healthy capitalism ?


Fascism is much more than economic policies. And what about oligopolies/duopolies/monopolies that aren't tightly integrated with the government, like say, Google, or Microsoft in its heyday?
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Parodite » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:42 pm

Simple Minded wrote:I think the solution is more regulation that everyone thinks is fair.... :shock:


We need much more deregulation rules.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby YMix » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:14 pm

Zack Morris wrote:Fascism is much more than economic policies. And what about oligopolies/duopolies/monopolies that aren't tightly integrated with the government, like say, Google, or Microsoft in its heyday?


I tend to see fascism and nazism as system where the state is in charge and the economy, while still in private hands, is directed to certain state purposes. Capitalism, in the sense I used above, is the opposite.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby YMix » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:17 pm

Image
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Zack Morris » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:58 am

YMix wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:Fascism is much more than economic policies. And what about oligopolies/duopolies/monopolies that aren't tightly integrated with the government, like say, Google, or Microsoft in its heyday?


I tend to see fascism and nazism as system where the state is in charge and the economy, while still in private hands, is directed to certain state purposes. Capitalism, in the sense I used above, is the opposite.


But economics is only one part of the picture. Fascism is much more than just an economic ideology. Arguably, the defining characteristics are its social values and its ideas of nationhood, individuals, and even race. Economic policy is just a means to an end for fascists, hence why it is difficult to definitively classify fascist economic views.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:51 pm

MW-DX543_billio_20151026130215_ZH.jpg
MW-DX543_billio_20151026130215_ZH.jpg (80.05 KiB) Viewed 378 times



.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:33 pm

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/b ... 1xNpbL8O_x

Socialism for thee, but not for me....
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby YMix » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:19 pm

Simple Minded wrote:http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/bill-gates-says-that-capitalism-cannot-save-us-from-climate-change--b1xNpbL8O_x

Socialism for thee, but not for me....


I posted a link to the entire article in the Oil & Gas thread, same subforum. Instead of taking Drudge's scream of "Socialism!" for granted, you should read the whole article.

Funny how Gates says "the market can't save us", the Independent changed that to "capitalism can't save us" and Drudge turned it into "Only Socialism Can Save Planet...". I'm waiting for complaints about the dastardly non-mainstream media?
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Simple Minded » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:11 pm

YMix wrote:
I posted a link to the entire article in the Oil & Gas thread, same subforum. Instead of taking Drudge's scream of "Socialism!" for granted, you should read the whole article.

Funny how Gates says "the market can't save us", the Independent changed that to "capitalism can't save us" and Drudge turned it into "Only Socialism Can Save Planet...". I'm waiting for complaints about the dastardly non-mainstream media?


;) This is capitalism. Each publication published in the preferred terminology of its targeted readers.

I think the article had some faintly religious overtones.

Kinda like the Catholic church of old selling dispensations. Only we have access to the data/holy books, and we are the only approved vendor of the official solution. Modern tech god on the righteous path to saving the world from the invisible devil for the little guy/children.

Once again, compliance and money is all that is required. But first of all, we, er, uh, I mean, uh, they need faith. :P

And for those Flat Earthers of little faith...... we got the guys with guns as motivators......
Last edited by Simple Minded on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Heracleum Persicum » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:16 pm

.

Oil Gas, water, air, sun, copper, gold, zinc etc etc .. all .. are "natural resources" given by G_D to inhabitants of this planet .. they do not belong to people next, or, on top of them.

Meaning

Natural resources "rights", similar to "mineral rights", should be "administered" by UNITED NATIONS in "fiduciary capacity" on behalf of earth present and future population.

In Canada, all natural resources, mineral rights, belong to the CROWN (meaning government = Canadian population). Anybody wanting to extract Oil or Gas or Gold or copper or water resources .. must get a licence from Canadian government and pay ROYALTY (sharing of the profit)

Same principle should apply worldwide

This has ZERO to do with socialism or communism or capitalism .. heart of capitalism is ownership of your making and not what G_D put under your ass.

.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Parodite » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:21 am

I agree. Milky Way Federation should fairly tax and redistribute gravity field distribution and time dilation so all can enjoy moment at same time!
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:26 am

Parodite wrote:I agree. Milky Way Federation should fairly tax and redistribute gravity field distribution and time dilation so all can enjoy moment at same time!


Anyone up for some extra-terrestrial anthropomorphizing.....

So, you finally reveal yourself as a reptilian sympathizer. I knew you couldn't hide it forever, assuming space-time continuum is constant.....

You know the existence of the Milky Way Federation is just a myth invented by the Joos, right?
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby YMix » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:38 am

Parodite wrote:I agree. Milky Way Federation should fairly tax and redistribute gravity field distribution and time dilation so all can enjoy moment at same time!


You're just a shill for Big Gravity.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Parodite » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:03 pm

YMix wrote:
Parodite wrote:I agree. Milky Way Federation should fairly tax and redistribute gravity field distribution and time dilation so all can enjoy moment at same time!


You're just a shill for Big Gravity.


Resistance is futile...BG is our destiny.

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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Parodite » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:07 pm

Simple Minded wrote:
Parodite wrote:I agree. Milky Way Federation should fairly tax and redistribute gravity field distribution and time dilation so all can enjoy moment at same time!


Anyone up for some extra-terrestrial anthropomorphizing.....

So, you finally reveal yourself as a reptilian sympathizer. I knew you couldn't hide it forever, assuming space-time continuum is constant.....

You know the existence of the Milky Way Federation is just a myth invented by the Joos, right?


You bet! Operation Space-Burger in a graph:

Image
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:11 pm

Parodite wrote:
YMix wrote:
Parodite wrote:I agree. Milky Way Federation should fairly tax and redistribute gravity field distribution and time dilation so all can enjoy moment at same time!


You're just a shill for Big Gravity.


Resistance is futile...BG is our destiny.

Image


This picture is racist!
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Parodite » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:31 pm

I suspect spider man is behind everything.
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Re: Capitalism and Its Discontents

Postby Simple Minded » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:58 pm

Parodite wrote:I suspect spider man is behind everything.


True, but on the whole, he is doing a much better job than most would expect a pure bred human or arachnoid to do.
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