Selective teaching of history influences self-image

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Heracleum Persicum
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Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Look, this belongs to "History Thread" .. but, don't know why we not having one


This not China specific, West has faked history of last few 100 yrs, to
fool western Joe to relax and feel good for atrocities done to others


Patriotic education distorts China world view



.

After 21-year-old Cai Yang was arrested in September for beating a Toyota-driving Chinese compatriot with a bicycle lock during an anti-Japanese protest, his mother tried to explain his actions.

“The education at school always instils the idea that Japanese are evil people and if you turn on the television most of the programmes are about the anti-Japanese war,” Yang Shuilan said. “How can we possibly not resent the Japanese?”

Apart from the fact that Cai’s 50-year-old victim was Chinese not Japanese, Ms Yang makes a valid point.

[..]

The selective teaching of history – emphasising the brutality of foreign invaders and ignoring atrocities or mistakes by China’s leaders, is intended to boost the party’s legitimacy by cultivating a nationalistic, anti-western victim mentality among young Chinese.

[..]

One of the most puzzling and troubling aspects of the rising tensions between China and its neighbours is the disconnection between how the world views China and how China – from ordinary citizens to top leaders – sees itself.

To the rest of the world, China looks like a huge and scary juggernaut intent on bullying smaller countries. In the minds of many Chinese, theirs remains a poor, weak and humiliated nation. How can you be a bully if you are the one who has always been picked on?

Young Chinese are also taught that their country has always been peace-loving, never expansionist. It is a highly distorted view that overlooks the country’s history, including a border war with Vietnam as recently as 1979.

[..]

Talk of war among Chinese officials and ordinary citizens is alarmingly common. One theory that has gained some currency is the idea that Beijing would come out well from a “limited war” in which it showed its resolve and shored up domestic support for the new administration of Xi Jinping.

etc etc

.

Brits did all those awful things to China (and India and Iran and Arabs and Africa and and and), and, now China (and Iran and Assad and and) the bad guy :lol:



.
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Zack Morris
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Zack Morris »

Just because one was once a victim does not mean they are victims any longer. The Chinese do not want an apology from Japan (they have refused to accept all that have been offered) so that they can continue using them as a sort of blowoff valve when things get too hot domestically.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Zack Morris wrote:.

Just because one was once a victim does not mean they are victims any longer. The Chinese do not want an apology from Japan (they have refused to accept all that have been offered) so that they can continue using them as a sort of blowoff valve when things get too hot domestically.

.


what kind of apology ? ?

Germans (and you guys) are paying and paying and paying to Jews Trillion of Dollars last 65 yrs, and, backing Zionist genocide in Palestine for your past sins

What kind of apology Japan has offered China, Korea, Malaysia, Philippine and and and ? ?

Chinese built present China with their bare hands with great sacrifice, West did not help .. and .. now, West (and Japan) building up for a war with China

No, Zack Morris, notion you can inflict all those atrocities to a nation and, when they up and running again, just say sorry does not wash

Same applies now to West in Middle East


.
Last edited by Heracleum Persicum on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Typhoon
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Zack Morris wrote:.

Just because one was once a victim does not mean they are victims any longer. The Chinese do not want an apology from Japan (they have refused to accept all that have been offered) so that they can continue using them as a sort of blowoff valve when things get too hot domestically.

.
what kind of apology ? ?

Germans (and you guys) are paying and paying and paying to Jews Trillion of Dollars last 65 yrs, and, backing Zionist genocide in Palestine for your past sins

What kind of apology Japan has offered China, Korea, Malaysia, Philippine and and and ? ?

Chinese built present China with their bare hands with great sacrifice, West did not help .. and .. now, West (and Japan) building up for a war with China

No, Zack Morris, notion you can inflict all those atrocities to a nation and, when they up and running again, just say sorry does not wash

Same applies to West not in Middle East

.
Nonsense.

List of war apology statements issued by Japan

ZM is correct. At this point, Japan serves as a convenient safety valve for China to deflect internal resentment of the CCP.

When the CCP apologies for the countless millions of lives needlessly lost during Mao's rule - the Great Leap Backward and the Cultural Devolution, and his mug shot is removed from the entrance to the Forbidden City, then I'll take China's whining a bit more seriously.

As for Korea, their history is a bit complicated.
For the example, the Treaty of Shimonoseki concluding the First Sino-Japanese War established the independence of Korea from long domination by China.

As for the ME, it's a perma-mess, mostly self-inflicted. Who cares.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
Zack Morris wrote:.

Just because one was once a victim does not mean they are victims any longer. The Chinese do not want an apology from Japan (they have refused to accept all that have been offered) so that they can continue using them as a sort of blowoff valve when things get too hot domestically.

.
what kind of apology ? ?

Germans (and you guys) are paying and paying and paying to Jews Trillion of Dollars last 65 yrs, and, backing Zionist genocide in Palestine for your past sins

What kind of apology Japan has offered China, Korea, Malaysia, Philippine and and and ? ?

Chinese built present China with their bare hands with great sacrifice, West did not help .. and .. now, West (and Japan) building up for a war with China

No, Zack Morris, notion you can inflict all those atrocities to a nation and, when they up and running again, just say sorry does not wash

Same applies to West not in Middle East

.
Nonsense.

List of war apology statements issued by Japan

ZM is correct. At this point, Japan serves as a convenient safety valve for China to deflect internal resentment of the CCP.

When the CCP apologies for the countless millions of lives needlessly lost during Mao's rule - the Great Leap Backward and the Cultural Devolution, and his mug shot is removed from the entrance to the Forbidden City, then I'll take China's whining a bit more seriously.

As for Korea, their history is a bit complicated.
For the example, the Treaty of Shimonoseki concluding the First Sino-Japanese War established the independence of Korea from long domination by China.

As for the ME, it's a perma-mess, mostly self-inflicted. Who cares.

.


Japan was (and is) fully integrated into "Western Cold War Machinery" .. Western deal with Japan was free access to resources (in the control of West), Western controlled markets open for Japanese goods, in return Japan siding with the west against (perceived) communist block .. all war compensation etc were part of cold war strategy, it went to those fighting (so called) communists

Japan was instrumental in American Vietnam war, same against northern part of Korea .. the (so called) war reparation went to all those being a key in western cold war in that space, southern part of Korea (north got nothing), (military junta Marcos) Philippine, (military junta) Thailand, (military junta) Sukarno/Suharto of Indonesia and and and .. that is why (North) Korea now sending missiles over Japan

and

China got ZERO from Japan .. all those atrocities done against Chinese, ZERO help from Japan to China when China was on it's knees, America was deciding who gets what, and China should suffer (like now Iran)

Now, Japan again, siding with West against China

Abe, elected, faction and people who frequent "Yasukuni Shrine", preparing for new Japanese neo militarism

A big mistake

In any case, colonel, that article is from FT and says how Chinese fell & think


.
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Typhoon
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.
Zack Morris wrote:.

Just because one was once a victim does not mean they are victims any longer. The Chinese do not want an apology from Japan (they have refused to accept all that have been offered) so that they can continue using them as a sort of blowoff valve when things get too hot domestically.

.
what kind of apology ? ?

Germans (and you guys) are paying and paying and paying to Jews Trillion of Dollars last 65 yrs, and, backing Zionist genocide in Palestine for your past sins

What kind of apology Japan has offered China, Korea, Malaysia, Philippine and and and ? ?

Chinese built present China with their bare hands with great sacrifice, West did not help .. and .. now, West (and Japan) building up for a war with China

No, Zack Morris, notion you can inflict all those atrocities to a nation and, when they up and running again, just say sorry does not wash

Same applies to West not in Middle East

.
Nonsense.

List of war apology statements issued by Japan

ZM is correct. At this point, Japan serves as a convenient safety valve for China to deflect internal resentment of the CCP.

When the CCP apologies for the countless millions of lives needlessly lost during Mao's rule - the Great Leap Backward and the Cultural Devolution, and his mug shot is removed from the entrance to the Forbidden City, then I'll take China's whining a bit more seriously.

As for Korea, their history is a bit complicated.
For the example, the Treaty of Shimonoseki concluding the First Sino-Japanese War established the independence of Korea from long domination by China.

As for the ME, it's a perma-mess, mostly self-inflicted. Who cares.

.
Japan was (and is) fully integrated into "Western Cold War Machinery" .. Western deal with Japan was free access to resources (in the control of West), Western controlled markets open for Japanese goods, in return Japan siding with the west against (perceived) communist block .. all war compensation etc were part of cold war strategy, it went to those fighting (so called) communists

Japan was instrumental in American Vietnam war, same against northern part of Korea .. the (so called) war reparation went to all those being a key in western cold war in that space, southern part of Korea (north got nothing), (military junta Marcos) Philippine, (military junta) Thailand, (military junta) Sukarno/Suharto of Indonesia and and and .. that is why (North) Korea now sending missiles over Japan

and

China got ZERO from Japan .. all those atrocities done against Chinese, ZERO help from Japan to China when China was on it's knees, America was deciding who gets what, and China should suffer (like now Iran)
So you claim. Given your track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes, so what.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Now, Japan again, siding with West against China
China, through it's dragon in a fireworks factory style of diplomancy, has managed to make all it's neighbours in E Asia and SE Asia highly suspicious of it's motives and distrustful of it's intentions without any assistance from the US. Thanks to the efforts of China, the US has never been more popular in E Asia, SE Asia, and India than it is today.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Abe, elected, faction and people who frequent "Yasukuni Shrine", preparing for new Japanese neo militarism

. . .
That's right. First on the neo occupation list - Iran.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:In any case, colonel, that article is from FT and says how Chinese fell & think

.
Not surprising given that they have been raised on propaganda.

I'll again resort to poor form and quote myself:
The characters for China 中国 are often translated as the Middle Kingdom. This literal translation loses the symbolic meaning of Kingdom at the Centre of the Universe to which all other nations should naturally kowtow. Two centuries of humiliation, as the Chinese see it, from the Opium Wars to the Boxer Rebellion to the occupation of Manchuria by Japan to to Hong Kong and Macau to the ongoing existence of an independent [US protected] Taiwan have created a collective cognitive dissonance and national sense of insecurity which accounts for their bully school of diplomacy and general tantrums and histrionics.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

China got ZERO from Japan .. all those atrocities done against Chinese, ZERO help from Japan to China when China was on it's knees, America was deciding who gets what, and China should suffer (like now Iran)

.
So you claim. Given your track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes, so what.

.

"track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes" :lol: :lol:


What about I post all atrocities inflicted on China by Japan, England, Germany and and, and, you post what compensation China got from Japan, England, America and West ?

why is Japan not compensating northern part of Korea for atrocities done to their man and woman ?

what about that ?

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Now, Japan again, siding with West against China

.
China, through it's dragon in a fireworks factory style of diplomancy, has managed to make all it's neighbours in E Asia and SE Asia highly suspicious of it's motives and distrustful of it's intentions without any assistance from the US. Thanks to the efforts of China, the US has never been more popular in E Asia, SE Asia, and India than it is today.

.

how come, America should control all oceans of the world, but China not allowed to control their hemispheric waters ? ? what is American Navy doing in Persian Golf ? ? protecting the YACHTS of Amirs and Kings agaisnt their own people (all Shia) ? ? :lol:

US popularity with Indonesian military Junta old strategy of divide and rule

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Abe, elected, faction and people who frequent "Yasukuni Shrine", preparing for new Japanese neo militarism
That's right. First on the neo occupation list - Iran.

.
:lol:

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:In any case, colonel, that article is from FT and says how Chinese fell & think

.

Not surprising given that they have been raised on propaganda.

I'll again resort to poor form and quote myself:
The characters for China 中国 are often translated as the Middle Kingdom. This literal translation loses the symbolic meaning of Kingdom at the Centre of the Universe to which all other nations should naturally kowtow. Two centuries of humiliation, as the Chinese see it, from the Opium Wars to the Boxer Rebellion to the occupation of Manchuria by Japan to to Hong Kong and Macau to the ongoing existence of an independent [US protected] Taiwan have created a collective cognitive dissonance and national sense of insecurity which accounts for their bully school of diplomacy and general tantrums and histrionics.
.
yes, the above true, and much more

What would US and Canada say if China or Iran or Russia would declare the Navajo Indian or Squeamish Indian Chinese protectorate and sign arms treaty with them and back them declaring independence ? ? and, day in, day out, trumpet human rights this and that ?

and

who is not raised on propaganda ? that is the job of national Media .. but, neither Chinese nor Iranian dummy



.
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Typhoon
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

China got ZERO from Japan .. all those atrocities done against Chinese, ZERO help from Japan to China when China was on it's knees, America was deciding who gets what, and China should suffer (like now Iran)

.
So you claim. Given your track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes, so what.

.

"track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes" :lol: :lol:


What about I post all atrocities inflicted on China by Japan, England, Germany and and, and, you post what compensation China got from Japan, England, America and West ?

why is Japan not compensating northern part of Korea for atrocities done to their man and woman ?

what about that ?
What about it? Why should Japan fund the most repressive government on the planet?

N Korea already receives enough remuneration through pachinko parlours run by Koreans sympathetic [go figure] to N Korea.

What next? A demand that Japan fund that second most repressive government on the planet - that of Iran?

Some actual history:

S. Korea firms tapped for Japan-rule compensation
But its [Japan's] 1965 reparations package of US$ 800 million in grants and cheap loans, along with U.S. aid, funded the “Miracle on the Han,” which transformed South Korea's economy.

Authoritarian president Park Chung-hee ploughed the compensation into modernizing the economy and infrastructure of a country left in ruins by the 1950-53 Korean War.

A self-sufficient, integrated steel mill was Park's priority.
His government poured US$118 million into building the initial plant, which began production in 1972 with an annual capacity of one million tons.

Little was left over to compensate conscript laborers, estimated by the Seoul government to have numbered 780,000 and mostly forced overseas during World War II. It was not until 1975 that Seoul passed a law to compensate them.

The reparations scheme was poorly publicized and only 8,500 applied. The government started paying 300,000 won (now US$255) for each victim but many applicants turned it down as too small.
Note that in 1965 US$ 800 million was the equivalent of US$ 5.8 trillion today [in 2012 US$].

As for the sex worker [a.k.a. as comfort women] issue, it's a bit more complicated than generally portrayed:

Front line 3rd party [US military] report on comfort women

What to do about the situation today?

I suppose one could say that Japan is continuing to pay back Korea . . . trick by trick.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Now, Japan again, siding with West against China

.
China, through it's dragon in a fireworks factory style of diplomancy, has managed to make all it's neighbours in E Asia and SE Asia highly suspicious of it's motives and distrustful of it's intentions without any assistance from the US. Thanks to the efforts of China, the US has never been more popular in E Asia, SE Asia, and India than it is today.

.
how come, America should control all oceans of the world, but China not allowed to control their hemispheric waters ? ?
Well, to begin with, what expansionist China considers it's territorial waters is excessive to say the least:

Image

So according to China, if one wades into the sea off a beach in Brunei, one is entering Chinese territorial waters.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:what is American Navy doing in Persian Golf ? ?
Participating in a friendly tournament?
Heracleum Persicum wrote:protecting the YACHTS of Amirs and Kings agaisnt their own people (all Shia) ? ? :lol:
Protecting the sea lanes for trade and ensuring that the oil continues flowing to Asia . . . including China.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:US popularity with Indonesian military Junta old strategy of divide and rule
As I pointed out, the US had to nothing, but stand back and watch China engage in it's dragon in a fireworks factory diplomacy.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Abe, elected, faction and people who frequent "Yasukuni Shrine", preparing for new Japanese neo militarism
That's right. First on the neo occupation list - Iran.

.
:lol:

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:In any case, colonel, that article is from FT and says how Chinese fell & think

.

Not surprising given that they have been raised on propaganda.

I'll again resort to poor form and quote myself:
The characters for China 中国 are often translated as the Middle Kingdom. This literal translation loses the symbolic meaning of Kingdom at the Centre of the Universe to which all other nations should naturally kowtow. Two centuries of humiliation, as the Chinese see it, from the Opium Wars to the Boxer Rebellion to the occupation of Manchuria by Japan to to Hong Kong and Macau to the ongoing existence of an independent [US protected] Taiwan have created a collective cognitive dissonance and national sense of insecurity which accounts for their bully school of diplomacy and general tantrums and histrionics.
.
yes, the above true, and much more

What would US and Canada say if China or Iran or Russia would declare the Navajo Indian or Squeamish Indian Chinese protectorate and sign arms treaty with them and back them declaring independence ? ? and, day in, day out, trumpet human rights this and that ?

and

who is not raised on propaganda ? that is the job of national Media .. but, neither Chinese nor Iranian dummy
So just what is the job of Chinese and Iranian dummies then?
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Ibrahim
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Ibrahim »

China, Japan, and Korea all mutually hate one another, ostensibly based on various historical grievances. Whether or not such offense is rational or justified, or should be mitigated by apologies, is not relevant because grudge-bearing and nationalism are not rational activities. If the argument is that a Chinese person should hate the CCP not Japan, I would argue that there is nothing stopping them from hating both, and probably as much justification for either.



Chinese maritime claims have been discussed a dozen times on this forum already, and I maintain that this is traditional communist foreign policy. Make bombastic claims and demands at the outset, then make a few concessions and see what you can bluff your way into. Maybe you end up with more than you started with and you don't have to lift a finger except to bang a lectern with your shoe. Nobody is going to war over it, its just a bunch of posturing. Personally I'd prefer that to the American style of foreign policy adventure(i.e. torture and murder).

Better still if everybody would just play nice and get along, but good luck getting the "great powers" to agree to that.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

China got ZERO from Japan .. all those atrocities done against Chinese, ZERO help from Japan to China when China was on it's knees, America was deciding who gets what, and China should suffer (like now Iran)

.
So you claim. Given your track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes, so what.

.

"track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes" :lol: :lol:


What about I post all atrocities inflicted on China by Japan, England, Germany and and, and, you post what compensation China got from Japan, England, America and West ?

why is Japan not compensating northern part of Korea for atrocities done to their man and woman ?

what about that ?
What about it? Why should Japan fund the most repressive government on the planet?

N Korea already receives enough remuneration through pachinko parlours run by Koreans sympathetic [go figure] to N Korea.

What next? A demand that Japan fund that second most repressive government on the planet - that of Iran?

Some actual history:

S. Korea firms tapped for Japan-rule compensation
But its [Japan's] 1965 reparations package of US$ 800 million in grants and cheap loans, along with U.S. aid, funded the “Miracle on the Han,” which transformed South Korea's economy.

Authoritarian president Park Chung-hee ploughed the compensation into modernizing the economy and infrastructure of a country left in ruins by the 1950-53 Korean War.

A self-sufficient, integrated steel mill was Park's priority.
His government poured US$118 million into building the initial plant, which began production in 1972 with an annual capacity of one million tons.

Little was left over to compensate conscript laborers, estimated by the Seoul government to have numbered 780,000 and mostly forced overseas during World War II. It was not until 1975 that Seoul passed a law to compensate them.

The reparations scheme was poorly publicized and only 8,500 applied. The government started paying 300,000 won (now US$255) for each victim but many applicants turned it down as too small.
Note that in 1965 US$ 800 million was the equivalent of US$ 5.8 trillion today [in 2012 US$].

As for the sex worker [a.k.a. as comfort women] issue, it's a bit more complicated than generally portrayed:

Front line 3rd party [US military] report on comfort women

What to do about the situation today?

I suppose one could say that Japan is continuing to pay back Korea . . . trick by trick.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Now, Japan again, siding with West against China

.
China, through it's dragon in a fireworks factory style of diplomancy, has managed to make all it's neighbours in E Asia and SE Asia highly suspicious of it's motives and distrustful of it's intentions without any assistance from the US. Thanks to the efforts of China, the US has never been more popular in E Asia, SE Asia, and India than it is today.

.
how come, America should control all oceans of the world, but China not allowed to control their hemispheric waters ? ?
Well, to begin with, what expansionist China considers it's territorial waters is excessive to say the least:

Image

So according to China, if one wades into the sea off a beach in Brunei, one is entering Chinese territorial waters.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:what is American Navy doing in Persian Golf ? ?
Participating in a friendly tournament?
Heracleum Persicum wrote:protecting the YACHTS of Amirs and Kings agaisnt their own people (all Shia) ? ? :lol:
Protecting the sea lanes for trade and ensuring that the oil continues flowing to Asia . . . including China.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:US popularity with Indonesian military Junta old strategy of divide and rule
As I pointed out, the US had to nothing, but stand back and watch China engage in it's dragon in a fireworks factory diplomacy.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Abe, elected, faction and people who frequent "Yasukuni Shrine", preparing for new Japanese neo militarism
That's right. First on the neo occupation list - Iran.

.
:lol:

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:In any case, colonel, that article is from FT and says how Chinese fell & think

.

Not surprising given that they have been raised on propaganda.

I'll again resort to poor form and quote myself:
The characters for China 中国 are often translated as the Middle Kingdom. This literal translation loses the symbolic meaning of Kingdom at the Centre of the Universe to which all other nations should naturally kowtow. Two centuries of humiliation, as the Chinese see it, from the Opium Wars to the Boxer Rebellion to the occupation of Manchuria by Japan to to Hong Kong and Macau to the ongoing existence of an independent [US protected] Taiwan have created a collective cognitive dissonance and national sense of insecurity which accounts for their bully school of diplomacy and general tantrums and histrionics.
.
yes, the above true, and much more

What would US and Canada say if China or Iran or Russia would declare the Navajo Indian or Squeamish Indian Chinese protectorate and sign arms treaty with them and back them declaring independence ? ? and, day in, day out, trumpet human rights this and that ?

and

who is not raised on propaganda ? that is the job of national Media .. but, neither Chinese nor Iranian dummy
So just what is the job of Chinese and Iranian dummies then?

.


It is as if China and Iran would send Navy to protect central America, Panama Canal, Nicaragua etc , from America agression .. to be the arbiter between Panama, Nicaragua, Mexico etc and America

Who gives the right for a power to come from 10,000 miles away to arbiter between people who lived last 10,000 yrs next to each other ? ?

Can Russia and China send armies 10,000 miles away from home to arbiter between Irish and Brits, or Argentina and Brits or Canada and US and and and ? ?

Those things must be solved between neighboring people as were done last 10,000 yrs .. foreign intervention in those disputes will solve nothing and will backfire to those who bring foreigners into this

And

Colonel Sun

that map you posted, is British made .. those countries in reality "redundant", Brunei neither nation nor country, but a British protectorate like Gibraltar .. those borders must and will be redrawn according to historical facts and realities .. very similar to those Persian Golf Oil wells with a flag


.
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Typhoon
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Typhoon »

Ibrahim wrote:China, Japan, and Korea all mutually hate one another, ostensibly based on various historical grievances. Whether or not such offense is rational or justified, or should be mitigated by apologies, is not relevant because grudge-bearing and nationalism are not rational activities. If the argument is that a Chinese person should hate the CCP not Japan, I would argue that there is nothing stopping them from hating both, and probably as much justification for either.
Living in the past, including cynical exploitation to avoid addressing current problems, is a real impediment to further progress and prosperity.
Ibrahim wrote: Chinese maritime claims have been discussed a dozen times on this forum already, and I maintain that this is traditional communist foreign policy. Make bombastic claims and demands at the outset, then make a few concessions and see what you can bluff your way into. Maybe you end up with more than you started with and you don't have to lift a finger except to bang a lectern with your shoe. Nobody is going to war over it, its just a bunch of posturing. Personally I'd prefer that to the American style of foreign policy adventure(i.e. torture and murder).
One hopes.
Ibrahim wrote:Better still if everybody would just play nice and get along, but good luck getting the "great powers" to agree to that.
Indeed.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Typhoon
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

China got ZERO from Japan .. all those atrocities done against Chinese, ZERO help from Japan to China when China was on it's knees, America was deciding who gets what, and China should suffer (like now Iran)

.
So you claim. Given your track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes, so what.

.

"track record of posting delusional conspiracy theories and rationalizations for repressive regimes" :lol: :lol:


What about I post all atrocities inflicted on China by Japan, England, Germany and and, and, you post what compensation China got from Japan, England, America and West ?

why is Japan not compensating northern part of Korea for atrocities done to their man and woman ?

what about that ?
What about it? Why should Japan fund the most repressive government on the planet?

N Korea already receives enough remuneration through pachinko parlours run by Koreans sympathetic [go figure] to N Korea.

What next? A demand that Japan fund that second most repressive government on the planet - that of Iran?

Some actual history:

S. Korea firms tapped for Japan-rule compensation
But its [Japan's] 1965 reparations package of US$ 800 million in grants and cheap loans, along with U.S. aid, funded the “Miracle on the Han,” which transformed South Korea's economy.

Authoritarian president Park Chung-hee ploughed the compensation into modernizing the economy and infrastructure of a country left in ruins by the 1950-53 Korean War.

A self-sufficient, integrated steel mill was Park's priority.
His government poured US$118 million into building the initial plant, which began production in 1972 with an annual capacity of one million tons.

Little was left over to compensate conscript laborers, estimated by the Seoul government to have numbered 780,000 and mostly forced overseas during World War II. It was not until 1975 that Seoul passed a law to compensate them.

The reparations scheme was poorly publicized and only 8,500 applied. The government started paying 300,000 won (now US$255) for each victim but many applicants turned it down as too small.
Note that in 1965 US$ 800 million was the equivalent of US$ 5.8 trillion today [in 2012 US$].

As for the sex worker [a.k.a. as comfort women] issue, it's a bit more complicated than generally portrayed:

Front line 3rd party [US military] report on comfort women

What to do about the situation today?

I suppose one could say that Japan is continuing to pay back Korea . . . trick by trick.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Now, Japan again, siding with West against China

.
China, through it's dragon in a fireworks factory style of diplomancy, has managed to make all it's neighbours in E Asia and SE Asia highly suspicious of it's motives and distrustful of it's intentions without any assistance from the US. Thanks to the efforts of China, the US has never been more popular in E Asia, SE Asia, and India than it is today.

.
how come, America should control all oceans of the world, but China not allowed to control their hemispheric waters ? ?
Well, to begin with, what expansionist China considers it's territorial waters is excessive to say the least:

Image

So according to China, if one wades into the sea off a beach in Brunei, one is entering Chinese territorial waters.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:what is American Navy doing in Persian Golf ? ?
Participating in a friendly tournament?
Heracleum Persicum wrote:protecting the YACHTS of Amirs and Kings agaisnt their own people (all Shia) ? ? :lol:
Protecting the sea lanes for trade and ensuring that the oil continues flowing to Asia . . . including China.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:US popularity with Indonesian military Junta old strategy of divide and rule
As I pointed out, the US had to nothing, but stand back and watch China engage in it's dragon in a fireworks factory diplomacy.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:
Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Abe, elected, faction and people who frequent "Yasukuni Shrine", preparing for new Japanese neo militarism
That's right. First on the neo occupation list - Iran.

.
:lol:

Typhoon wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:In any case, colonel, that article is from FT and says how Chinese fell & think

.

Not surprising given that they have been raised on propaganda.

I'll again resort to poor form and quote myself:
The characters for China 中国 are often translated as the Middle Kingdom. This literal translation loses the symbolic meaning of Kingdom at the Centre of the Universe to which all other nations should naturally kowtow. Two centuries of humiliation, as the Chinese see it, from the Opium Wars to the Boxer Rebellion to the occupation of Manchuria by Japan to to Hong Kong and Macau to the ongoing existence of an independent [US protected] Taiwan have created a collective cognitive dissonance and national sense of insecurity which accounts for their bully school of diplomacy and general tantrums and histrionics.
.
yes, the above true, and much more

What would US and Canada say if China or Iran or Russia would declare the Navajo Indian or Squeamish Indian Chinese protectorate and sign arms treaty with them and back them declaring independence ? ? and, day in, day out, trumpet human rights this and that ?

and

who is not raised on propaganda ? that is the job of national Media .. but, neither Chinese nor Iranian dummy
So just what is the job of Chinese and Iranian dummies then?

.
It is as if China and Iran would send Navy to protect central America, Panama Canal, Nicaragua etc , from America agression .. to be the arbiter between Panama, Nicaragua, Mexico etc and America

Who gives the right for a power to come from 10,000 miles away to arbiter between people who lived last 10,000 yrs next to each other ? ?
History and power.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:Can Russia and China send armies 10,000 miles away from home to arbiter between Irish and Brits, or Argentina and Brits or Canada and US and and and ? ?

Those things must be solved between neighboring people as were done last 10,000 yrs .. foreign intervention in those disputes will solve nothing and will backfire to those who bring foreigners into this
Well, it would be far better if everyone involved stopped living in the past.
Heracleum Persicum wrote: And

Colonel Sun

that map you posted, is British made .. those countries in reality "redundant", Brunei neither nation nor country, but a British protectorate like Gibraltar .. those borders must and will be redrawn according to historical facts and realities .. very similar to those Persian Golf Oil wells with a flag

.
The citizens of Brunei see things rather differently.

As for delusional dreams of a Greater Whateverstan, that belongs in the Conspiracy Theories and other Looney Tunes thread.

Iran should get it own house in some semblance of order before presuming to instruct others on how to conduct their affairs.
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Ibrahim »

Typhoon wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:China, Japan, and Korea all mutually hate one another, ostensibly based on various historical grievances. Whether or not such offense is rational or justified, or should be mitigated by apologies, is not relevant because grudge-bearing and nationalism are not rational activities. If the argument is that a Chinese person should hate the CCP not Japan, I would argue that there is nothing stopping them from hating both, and probably as much justification for either.
Living in the past, including cynical exploitation to avoid addressing current problems, is a real impediment to further progress and prosperity.
It doesn't seem to make a difference. Every country harbors grudges, but they rise or fall on other factors. I don't see how hating Japan, ostensibly over WW2-era strocities, really harms China or South Korea. It may be dumb, but that's about it.




Ibrahim wrote: Chinese maritime claims have been discussed a dozen times on this forum already, and I maintain that this is traditional communist foreign policy. Make bombastic claims and demands at the outset, then make a few concessions and see what you can bluff your way into. Maybe you end up with more than you started with and you don't have to lift a finger except to bang a lectern with your shoe. Nobody is going to war over it, its just a bunch of posturing. Personally I'd prefer that to the American style of foreign policy adventure(i.e. torture and murder).
One hopes.
South Asia, particularly thanks to India, has enough of a deterrent to keep it non-violent. If China though they could impose these claims without any pushback I'm sure they would. But they don't, so I don't think they'll start a regional war over it. In the 21st century the strongest army in the world can't even whip hillbillies in Afghanistan, so I don't think the Chinese want to start a South Asian war. The Spengleroid idea that war is some kind of jobs-program for unemployed young men is at least a century out of date. War burns money and skilled people even faster than it burns diesel and civilians.



Getting back to self-image, the popular Western response to the growth of China was been "so what, their country is still lavender!" so Chinese pushback in terms of asserting their own pride and prestige against the "barbarians" is to be expected.
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Typhoon »

Ibrahim wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:China, Japan, and Korea all mutually hate one another, ostensibly based on various historical grievances. Whether or not such offense is rational or justified, or should be mitigated by apologies, is not relevant because grudge-bearing and nationalism are not rational activities. If the argument is that a Chinese person should hate the CCP not Japan, I would argue that there is nothing stopping them from hating both, and probably as much justification for either.
Living in the past, including cynical exploitation to avoid addressing current problems, is a real impediment to further progress and prosperity.
It doesn't seem to make a difference. Every country harbors grudges, but they rise or fall on other factors. I don't see how hating Japan, ostensibly over WW2-era strocities, really harms China or South Korea. It may be dumb, but that's about it.
At a minimum it can impede trade.
Ibrahim wrote:
Ibrahim wrote: Chinese maritime claims have been discussed a dozen times on this forum already, and I maintain that this is traditional communist foreign policy. Make bombastic claims and demands at the outset, then make a few concessions and see what you can bluff your way into. Maybe you end up with more than you started with and you don't have to lift a finger except to bang a lectern with your shoe. Nobody is going to war over it, its just a bunch of posturing. Personally I'd prefer that to the American style of foreign policy adventure(i.e. torture and murder).
One hopes.
South Asia, particularly thanks to India, has enough of a deterrent to keep it non-violent. If China though they could impose these claims without any pushback I'm sure they would. But they don't, so I don't think they'll start a regional war over it. In the 21st century the strongest army in the world can't even whip hillbillies in Afghanistan, so I don't think the Chinese want to start a South Asian war. The Spengleroid idea that war is some kind of jobs-program for unemployed young men is at least a century out of date. War burns money and skilled people even faster than it burns diesel and civilians.
Spenglerman is just another armchair general who can advocate war comfortable in the knowledge that he has no risk of being called up to participate.
Ibrahim wrote:Getting back to self-image, the popular Western response to the growth of China was been "so what, their country is still lavender!" so Chinese pushback in terms of asserting their own pride and prestige against the "barbarians" is to be expected.
Much of this is rationalization and self-deception, not unlike China, in response, in the case of West, to the now ubiquitous "Made in China".
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Skin Job »

It's de rigueur to selectively teach, since we are all wired to selectively believe.
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Marcus »

Skin Job wrote:It's de rigueur to selectively teach, since we are all wired to selectively believe.

Credo ut intelligam . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Azrael »

Typhoon wrote:Living in the past, including cynical exploitation to avoid addressing current problems, is a real impediment to further progress and prosperity.
The Chinese are still seeing this

Image

No wonder we get this

Image
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Revenge vs. Standard Operating Procedure....

Post by monster_gardener »

Azrael wrote:
Typhoon wrote:Living in the past, including cynical exploitation to avoid addressing current problems, is a real impediment to further progress and prosperity.
The Chinese are still seeing this

Image

No wonder we get this

Image

Thank you Very Much for your post, Azrael.

Perhaps to a degree but IMVHO not so much.........

Note that NONE of the powers dividing China in the first image are making claims in the second.......

Rather IMVHO China is trying to bully those smaller SE Asian powers that it has traditionally tried to bully......

And the Viets in particular have a tradition of resisting this going back over a thousand years..........
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Re: Revenge vs. Standard Operating Procedure....

Post by Azrael »

monster_gardener wrote:Thank you Very Much for your post, Azrael.
You're quite welcome.
Perhaps to a degree but IMVHO not so much.........

Note that NONE of the powers dividing China in the first image are making claims in the second.......
Perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been. I didn't intend to give the impression that both groups were the same, only that China's bad experiences from the 19th Century may lead to them being perhaps too touchy and aggressive when it comes to territorial disputes.
Rather IMVHO China is trying to bully those smaller SE Asian powers that it has traditionally tried to bully......
Good point. I think that your analysis is quite good and probably more relevant than mine.
And the Viets in particular have a tradition of resisting this going back over a thousand years..........
Very true.
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Re: Revenge vs. Standard Operating Procedure....

Post by monster_gardener »

Azrael wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:Thank you Very Much for your post, Azrael.
You're quite welcome.
Perhaps to a degree but IMVHO not so much.........

Note that NONE of the powers dividing China in the first image are making claims in the second.......
Perhaps I was not as clear as I should have been. I didn't intend to give the impression that both groups were the same, only that China's bad experiences from the 19th Century may lead to them being perhaps too touchy and aggressive when it comes to territorial disputes.
Rather IMVHO China is trying to bully those smaller SE Asian powers that it has traditionally tried to bully......
Good point. I think that your analysis is quite good and probably more relevant than mine.
And the Viets in particular have a tradition of resisting this going back over a thousand years..........
Very true.
Thank you VERY MUCH for your Kind Reply and the Kind Words, Azrael.
only that China's bad experiences from the 19th Century may lead to them being perhaps too touchy and aggressive when it comes to territorial disputes.
Seconded........

Though again IMVHO the problems predate the exploitation:

Middle Kingdom....... Center of the World..... All Others are Barbarians who should Bow, Kow Tow and pay tribute if in our generosity we deign to accept it..........*


And it is sad........

The Sensible thing IMVHO would be for all concerned with reasonable claims to get their money by forming a consortium to contract out and police oil exploration & hopefully exploitation......


*For all that, I choose to like them.......
Just like I like Cats whose attitude can sometimes be similar
And G_D is said to Love Me and the other Chaos Monkeys
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Ibrahim »

Skin Job wrote:It's de rigueur to selectively teach, since we are all wired to selectively believe.
You also have to allow for some nationalistic bias. Its a bit much to expect every country to teach its own children nothing but how evil and shitty their country was/is. Pseduo-objectivity is for serious scholars and academics, Let the 8th-graders think that the people who founded their country didn't all suck.
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Typhoon »

Azrael wrote:
. . .

Image

. . .
Amusing that the caricature of France is the Marianne babe, unlike everyone else portrayed in an unflattering light.
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Azrael »

Typhoon wrote:
Azrael wrote:
. . .

Image

. . .
Amusing that the caricature of France is the Marianne babe, unlike everyone else portrayed in an unflattering light.
I think that the image is from a French newspaper. They spell China "Chine" and France's traditional enemies, Germany and England, are portrayed very unflatteringly.

And it looks like Marianne is leaning over the Tsar of Russia, implying that they are allies.
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:
Skin Job wrote:It's de rigueur to selectively teach, since we are all wired to selectively believe.

Credo ut intelligam . .

ignoratio elenchi
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Re: Selective teaching of history influences self-image

Post by Farcus »

Azrael wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Azrael wrote:
. . .

Image

. . .
Amusing that the caricature of France is the Marianne babe, unlike everyone else portrayed in an unflattering light.
I think that the image is from a French newspaper. They spell China "Chine" and France's traditional enemies, Germany and England, are portrayed very unflatteringly.

And it looks like Marianne is leaning over the Tsar of Russia, implying that they are allies.

Japan doesn't look very wholesome, but does have the biggest knife...
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