North Korea

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Alexis
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Re: What to do before grabbing the popcorn

Post by Alexis »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:What does NK want ? ?
- Simple: they want security. And Kim III consolidates his throne by presenting himself as the protector of North Korea.

- As for the USA, they want to protect themselves and their allies. Also, they would like the Non-Proliferation Treaty to not eventually collapse.

- As for China, they want to continue giving a free rein to their NK ally, while the USA continue to argue to Seoul and Tokyo against exiting the NPT and building their own national nuclear deterrences.

If Washington chose to stop providing freely China with what it wants - US pressure on Seoul and Tokyo to refrain ideas of autonomous deterrence - it might get from Beijing what it wants - Chinese pressure on Pyongyang to put a cap on its deterrence, keeping it Israel- or Pakistan-like, not China- or France-like.

Or maybe it wouldn't get that reaction from Beijing. But then, Seoul and Tokyo would continue to be protected even when US territory is within reach of operational NK nuclear missiles - if by other means - henceforth Washington would have behaved as a good ally, looking for a solution for its friends. Also, Chinese leadership would have been given food for thought on whether they would really like the US to completely exit Far East Asia security. For the time being, Beijing thinks it wants that... but maybe they haven't thought through all the consequences?

Just "parroting" western propaganda is Old-school .. nobody fooled anymore by that rubbish
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: North Korea

Post by Mr. Perfect »

If North Korea wanted security they would allow free and fair elections and form alliances with G-20 nations. Period. They do not want security.

The leader of that country wants notoriety and to maintain his power. Period.

As such he should be wiped from the face of the earth.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Alexis
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Re: North Korea

Post by Alexis »

Mr. Perfect wrote:As such he should be wiped from the face of the earth.
You're welcome to define a method to do that without entailing the death of several millions civilians in South Korea & Japan (artillery on Seoul, chemical and nuclear ballistic missiles on South Korea & Japan), possibly in the United States (commando attacks with chemical and biological weapons)

Military specialists say it can't be done.
noddy
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Re: North Korea

Post by noddy »

china went from maoist lunacy to capitalist robber barron heaven in 2 generations.

the south koreans went from rice farming peasants to the most technologically advanced country on the planet in one generation.

provided little fatty doesnt go that next step of lunacy their is no reason to suspect north korea is any different.
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: What to do before grabbing the popcorn

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Alexis wrote:.
Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

What does NK want ? ?
- Simple: they want security. And Kim III consolidates his throne by presenting himself as the protector of North Korea.

- As for the USA, they want to protect themselves and their allies. Also, they would like the Non-Proliferation Treaty to not eventually collapse.

- As for China, they want to continue giving a free rein to their NK ally, while the USA continue to argue to Seoul and Tokyo against exiting the NPT and building their own national nuclear deterrences.

If Washington chose to stop providing freely China with what it wants - US pressure on Seoul and Tokyo to refrain ideas of autonomous deterrence - it might get from Beijing what it wants - Chinese pressure on Pyongyang to put a cap on its deterrence, keeping it Israel- or Pakistan-like, not China- or France-like.

Or maybe it wouldn't get that reaction from Beijing. But then, Seoul and Tokyo would continue to be protected even when US territory is within reach of operational NK nuclear missiles - if by other means - henceforth Washington would have behaved as a good ally, looking for a solution for its friends. Also, Chinese leadership would have been given food for thought on whether they would really like the US to completely exit Far East Asia security. For the time being, Beijing thinks it wants that... but maybe they haven't thought through all the consequences?

Just "parroting" western propaganda is Old-school .. nobody fooled anymore by that rubbish
I don't know who you are speaking to, but it's not me.

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Security ? ? ?


Secure from Whom ?

Like Qaddafi ? ?

Qaddafi was best for his own nation, Libyans had best under his rule .. and now ? ? ?

Yes, NK wants to be secure of you guys

And

NK wants Japan pays reparation for all Japan did to Korea .. but , America preventing that
- As for the USA, they want to protect themselves and their allies. Also, they would like the Non-Proliferation Treaty to not eventually collapse.
"Main Pillar" Non proliferation treaty, the Nuclear treaty, is, Nuclear powers have agreed to "FASE OUT" nuclear weapon, to "disarm" nuclear weapons .. not only they have not done that, not only they double down on nuclear weapons, but they threaten non nuclear powers with nuclear weapons .. good example is that 2-but nobody Britain Theresa May would fire UK’s nuclear weapons as a ‘first strike’, says Defence Secretary Michael Fallon .. in that sense , as Putin correctly said, NK would be an idi*t to give up their H-bomb .. in fact Iran and Argentina and Brazil and South Africa and and and should become nuclear weapon countries immediately (they can have nuclear weapon on WEEKS NOTICE)

US now in economic war with China and Russia and Europe and Middle East and and .. was never an fair "arbiter", that's why world at this juncture.

- As for China, they want to continue giving a free rein to their NK ally, while the USA continue to argue to Seoul and Tokyo against exiting the NPT and building their own national nuclear deterrences.



That space belongs primarily to China and those folks in vicinity to China .. America neither has the power nor means anymore to have a say .. and .. if America really means well, should try to promote cooperation and good neighbourhood among nations in that space, instead is arming bad guys in that space (Laos) and agitating.

Europeans got the message and distancing from US, Merkel saying Germany will be neutral in NK clash.
Mr. Perfect wrote:If North Korea wanted security they would allow free and fair elections and form alliances with G-20 nations. Period. They do not want security.

The leader of that country wants notoriety and to maintain his power. Period.

As such he should be wiped from the face of the earth.

Free and fair elections most needed in American friends Saudi Arabia and with all those Sheikhs who buy $ 500 million Yachts and private B474 when at the same time their people going hungry.

Now people have all information on their fingertip and say enough is enough with political illiteracy, nobody swallows anymore
rubbish propaganda .. we now in multipolar world .. not watching anymore American media, watching RT and PressTV :lol: :lol:

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Mr. Perfect
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Re: North Korea

Post by Mr. Perfect »

noddy wrote:china went from maoist lunacy to capitalist robber barron heaven in 2 generations.

the south koreans went from rice farming peasants to the most technologically advanced country on the planet in one generation.

provided little fatty doesnt go that next step of lunacy their is no reason to suspect north korea is any different.
Cuba went from being Cuba to being Cuba . Afg went from being afg to being afg. Isis went from being isis to being isis.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: North Korea

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Alexis wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:As such he should be wiped from the face of the earth.
You're welcome to define a method to do that without entailing the death of several millions civilians in South Korea & Japan (artillery on Seoul, chemical and nuclear ballistic missiles on South Korea & Japan), possibly in the United States (commando attacks with chemical and biological weapons)

Military specialists say it can't be done.
Several million will die, make no mistake, the issue is which several million. You guys live in a world where the Lusitania was never sunk, pearl harbor was never attacked Hitler never invaded anybody and 9-11 never happened. In my world all these things happened. and they will happen again.
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Alexis
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Re: What to do before grabbing the popcorn

Post by Alexis »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:NK wants Japan pays reparation for all Japan did to Korea .. but , America preventing that
USA or not USA, NK has no means to force Japan paying money if the Japanese government doesn't want to.

Theresa May would fire UK’s nuclear weapons as a ‘first strike’, says Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
You totally misunderstood that part, as we already discussed earlier.

in fact Iran and Argentina and Brazil and South Africa and and and should become nuclear weapon countries immediately (they can have nuclear weapon on WEEKS NOTICE)
No, they would need far longer time than that.

No country in the world can do it quicker than South Korea, except possibly Japan, Germany or Italy. And SK scientists' estimate is 18 months.

That space belongs primarily to China and those folks in vicinity to China ..
South Koreans and Japanese want to remain allied to the USA. Deal with it.

South Korea and Japan are different countries, but they do have a common point: they don't belong to China. Deal with it.

Mr. Perfect wrote:Several million will die, make no mistake, the issue is which several million. You guys live in a world where the Lusitania was never sunk, pearl harbor was never attacked Hitler never invaded anybody and 9-11 never happened. In my world all these things happened. and they will happen again.
Some people, because they are afraid of the rain, choose to jump into a swimming pool... :)
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: North Korea

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-ch ... nectivity/
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Largely unreported by Western corporate media, what happened in Vladivostok is really ground-breaking. Moscow and Seoul agreed on a trilateral trade platform, crucially involving Pyongyang, to ultimately invest in connectivity between the whole Korean peninsula and the Russian Far East.

South Korean Prime Minister Moon Jae-in proposed to Moscow to build no less than “nine bridges” of cooperation: “Nine bridges mean the bridges of gas, railways, the Northern Sea Route, shipbuilding, the creation of working groups, agriculture and other types of cooperation.”

Crucially, Moon added that the trilateral cooperation would aim at joint projects in the Russian Far East. He knows that “the development of that area will promote the prosperity of our two countries and will also help change North Korea and create the basis for the implementation of the trilateral agreements.”

Adding to the entente, Japanese Foreign Minister Taro Kono and South Korean Foreign Minister Kang Kyung-wha both stressed “strategic cooperation” with “RC”.

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Hmmmmm .. US not included :lol:

Russians and Chinese and Japanese, wisely so, working on integrating NK into the "New Far East", Asia.


Antonov An-2

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Alexis
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Re: North Korea

Post by Alexis »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-ch ... nectivity/
Moscow and Seoul agreed on a trilateral trade platform, crucially involving Pyongyang, to ultimately invest in connectivity between the whole Korean peninsula and the Russian Far East.
From South Korean trade statistics:
- Russia is destination of 0.87% of Seoul's exports: about same as Slovakia, less than Norway, 15 times less than the USA
- Russia is origin of 2.9% of Seoul's imports: less than Qatar or Saudi Arabia, not quite 30% of the USA. What Seoul imports from Russia is more than 77% mineral products

Sometimes, orders of magnitude tell volumes.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Typhoon »

Russia. A gas station, run by a mafia, masquerading as a country
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noddy
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Re: North Korea

Post by noddy »

russia is less than half as important as australia to east asian trade despite being neighbours and being resource rich.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/c ... stinations
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/c ... stinations

the only relevance russia has to east asia is eventually china will take half their country.

zero trust, nadda zip.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Typhoon »

noddy wrote:russia is less than half as important as australia to east asian trade despite being neighbours and being resource rich.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/c ... stinations
http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/c ... stinations

the only relevance russia has to east asia is eventually china will take half their country.

zero trust, nadda zip.
Speaking of Australia, the Australian economy is the same size as that of Russia.

http://www.visualcapitalist.com/74-tril ... one-chart/

Australia: 24.13 million population
Russia: 144.3 million population
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: North Korea

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

What’s the U.S.’s Best Chance With North Korea ?
Russia


North Korea will not denuclearize; it’s too late for that. Neither will it ever formally be recognized as a nuclear power. But it will eventually have crude nuclear weapons with which to strike United States territory.

Sanctions, no matter how strict, will not stop Pyongyang from pursuing its program, which it sees as the key to its very survival; as Mr. Putin said recently, North Koreans will “eat grass” before they give up nuclear weapons. Pyongyang’s latest missile launch on Friday was a direct rebuke to the new sanctions, notably on oil imports, that the U.N. Security Council passed last Monday.

This is not to say that sanctions are a mistake. They remain a valuable expression of collective condemnation and reassert the goal of nuclear nonproliferation. But they will not halt North Korea’s nuclearization.

A total blockade of the country might, but it is too risky to even attempt. It could push North Korea to start a war or cause the country’s collapse, a prospect that China, for one, cannot tolerate.

And so the only viable strategy left is to convince the North Korean leadership that it already has the deterrent it needs, and that going beyond that — by developing more nuclear weapons and longer-range missiles — would only be counterproductive.

This is where Russia comes it: It can help nudge Pyongyang toward strategic restraint, and help defuse tensions in the meantime, by offering it new economic prospects.

One project that has been discussed in the past involves building gas pipelines from Russia to South Korea through North Korea. Another would be to restore an old rail link that used to connect South Korea to the Tran-Siberian. Both would generate transit fees, in foreign currency, for Pyongyang. As another expression of good will, the Russian government could also authorize more North Koreans to work in its eastern provinces: An estimated 30,000 to 50,000 already do, many as construction workers and laborers.

The North Korean economy is doing better than is commonly thought. Its gross domestic product has grown recently — by 3.9 percent between 2016 and 2017 — and market forces are emerging, for the trade of food and real estate, for example. That means not only that North Korea may be better able to withstand sanctions today than it was in the past, but also that economic overtures could hurry its transformation along — and perhaps in time soften its stance internationally.

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Re: North Korea

Post by Typhoon »

May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Live firing of nuclear-tipped missile in open ocean?

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Within context of increasingly heated verbal exchange between US president and NK leader, Kim Jong Un has promised retaliation "at the highest level", without any specifics.

NK MFA then precised an option might be an atmospheric nuclear test in the Pacific.
"It could be the most powerful detonation of an H-bomb in the Pacific," Ri told reporters. "We have no idea about what actions could be taken as it will be ordered by leader Kim Jong-un."
What is alluded is presumably the live firing of a nuclear-tipped missile in open ocean, far from the territorial waters of any country. Such an action would be:
- The first atmospheric nuclear test since Chinese 1980 test
- The first complete live test of a nuclear delivery system since French test 1973
- The first time ever any country has tested a nuclear device outside of its own territory or territorial waters
- Very dangerous since neither Hwasong-12 nor even less Hwasong-14 have been tested extensively, and missile trajectory would have to overfly Japan, probably Hokkaido. Even comprehensively tested operational weapons occasionnally fail - all the more so lightly tested ones

In case of technical problem, NK engineers would probably have arranged to prevent the weapon from detonating, but destruction of missile would still project radioactive pollution in unpredictible directions, potentially over Japanese territory.

Kim Jong Un said he is "thinking hard" about his response to Trump’s warnings. It is to be wished that he chooses not to take that serious technical risk.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

West had a deal/arrangement with North Korea in line with nuke deal with Iran

US cancelled it

North Korea now will detonate a H-Bomb in Pacific

Was cancelling that nuke arrangement with NK not stup*d ? ? ?

Reflecting western policy last (@ least) 35 yrs , all those policies, at the moment looked good, but, all of the them catastrophically backfired.

Qaddafi was good for his people, and look now ! ! ! everyday boatload of refugee land in Italy, Germany had to absorb 2 million refugee , EU in turmoil what do to with so many refugee .. and now Trump :lol:

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Alexis
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58% of Americans favor military action as last resort

Post by Alexis »

Gallup poll 6-10 September, 2017

Question: "If the United States does not accomplish its goals regarding North Korea with economic and diplomatic efforts, would you favor or oppose using military action against North Korea?"

Favor: 58%
Oppose: 39%

Among Republicans, 82% favor military action if economic and diplomatic efforts fail.

Question: "Do you think the situation involving North Korea can be successfully resolved using only economic and diplomatic efforts, or not?"

Yes, can be: 50%
No, cannot: 45%
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Re: 58% of Americans favor military action as last resort

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Alexis wrote:Gallup poll 6-10 September, 2017

Question: "If the United States does not accomplish its goals regarding North Korea with economic and diplomatic efforts, would you favor or oppose using military action against North Korea?"

Favor: 58%
Oppose: 39%

Among Republicans, 82% favor military action if economic and diplomatic efforts fail.

Question: "Do you think the situation involving North Korea can be successfully resolved using only economic and diplomatic efforts, or not?"

Yes, can be: 50%
No, cannot: 45%

Anybody contemplating a military confrontation with a country who has nuclear & thermonuclear weapon is a pure idi*t.

China would back NK, same with Russia .. Merkel said Europe will be neutral

AND ?

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Alexis
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Re: 58% of Americans favor military action as last resort

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Heracleum Persicum wrote:China would back NK, same with Russia .. Merkel said Europe will be neutral

AND?
This "AND?" is the good question.

Details are sketchy, but roughly speaking:

1) If NK leadership decides US strikes pose no threat to survival of regime, response would be moderate.

Expect artillery shelling of Seoul, ballistic missiles on US bases in South Korea and Japan, probably including chemical warheads. No biological weapons, probably no nuclear except possibly as a demonstration.

Many thousands of deaths, deep trouble in South Korea. Some of recent NK ballistic and nuclear progress is erased. Most of it is intact, Pyongyang invests to re-develop what was lost. Beijing and Moscow refuse any further economic sanctions and begin supporting NK - possibly accelerating their progress. Seoul and Tokyo think hard about autonomous nuclear deterrents.

2) If NK leadership decides US strikes are an actual threat to regime survival, nuclear would come into play.

In addition to previous, expect nuclear use. Probably a single attack & outside US territory, so as to keep a chance of stopping the war there. Say nuclear attack against a US base either in South Korea or in Japan, possibly along with a second one close to US territory as demonstration, e.g. nuclear strike 100 km from Guam.

Then:
- If US leadership decides to renounce threatening NK regime survival, there would be a possibility to keep it at that.
Difference with previous: hundreds of thousands of deaths, very high probability of SK and Japanese nuclear deterrents, NK regime battled but survives.
- If US leadership confirms their threat and NK leadership is convinced they are lost, then they may fire everything they have. Numerous nuclear strikes on US bases in South Korea and Japan, Guam atomized, possible nuclear strike on Anchorage and Honolulu, potentially Seattle. Possible biological warfare in the 48 contiguous states through commando attacks. Pyongyang and many other NK cities atomized by US reprisals.
Difference with previous: millions of deaths, certainty of SK and Japanese nuclear deterrents, other countries develop nuclear weapons (in Europe?), some discontinue entirely alliance with the USA
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Re: North Korea

Post by noddy »

little fatty is evil because he has no Seoul.

----

if he starts throwing nuclear bombs over japans head and into the pacific he will have no one to blame but himself when the consequences happen.

sure, the orange one is playing childish games by returning rhetoric instead of ignoring it but endangering the lives of millions is its own escalating decision, unrelated to rhetoric.
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Alexis
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Paroxysm quite soon

Post by Alexis »

noddy wrote:little fatty is evil because he has no Seoul.

----

if he starts throwing nuclear bombs over japans head and into the pacific he will have no one to blame but himself when the consequences happen.

sure, the orange one is playing childish games by returning rhetoric instead of ignoring it but endangering the lives of millions is its own escalating decision, unrelated to rhetoric.
Not clear yet that Kim IIIrd will do that. It would clearly be better if he did not.

As for the consequences, the NK - US situation seems to be heading towards a paroxysm, and within a relatively short time.

One or maximum a couple of years from now I guess, one of two things will have happened:
- NK will have demonstrated a credible ability to fire nuclear warheads on the 48 US contiguous States, quelling any idea of US preventive strike
or
- The US will have attacked NK

No telling which one it will be.

Anyway, it should be on Trump's - and Kim III's - watch.
Simple Minded

Re: North Korea

Post by Simple Minded »

noddy wrote:little fatty is evil because he has no Seoul.

----
Amen.... similar to feminism is penis envy....... maybe not mine though.....
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Alexis
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Your what?

Post by Alexis »

Simple Minded wrote:Amen.... similar to feminism is penis envy....... maybe not mine though.....
Hmmm? What do you mean "Not mine"? Your feminism? Or your p...

Errrr :oops: ... What were we speaking of, again?
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