What odds China + India = Love

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Carbizene
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What odds China + India = Love

Post by Carbizene »

What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
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Azrael
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Re: what odds China + India = love

Post by Azrael »

Unlikely in the near term. China and India have disputes over territory and China is allied with India arch-rival Pakistan.
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Carbizene
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Re: what odds China + India = love

Post by Carbizene »

As the West upgrades seating on the crazy train, say via a attack on Iran, could not those disputes be placed in perspective and be seen of lower relevance than a conglomeration of power that seems to be acting increasingly in Medieval construct, devolving.

The dispute between India and Pakistan is also based on Medieval premise though, at least skin colour is not a diferentiator, thus maybe more likely of resolution brought about by the fear of a nutjob neighbour.
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China + India = could be love, India & Pak not so much

Post by monster_gardener »

Carbizene wrote:As the West upgrades seating on the crazy train, say via a attack on Iran, could not those disputes be placed in perspective and be seen of lower relevance than a conglomeration of power that seems to be acting increasingly in Medieval construct, devolving.

The dispute between India and Pakistan is also based on Medieval premise though, at least skin colour is not a diferentiator, thus maybe more likely of resolution brought about by the fear of a nutjob neighbour.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.

IMVHO it might be/should be possible for China & India to become friends..Of course, China would have to lose that loser :wink: Pakistan.


India & Pakistan might be a lot harder......... bad history going back centuries, 10 of millions of Hindus & Sikhs killed in the Muslim invasion........ nasty partition....... Several serious wars since........... Continuing dispute over Kashmir......... Paks afraid India is trying to encircle them in Afghanistan etc.......... Think that the danger of nuke war between India & Pakistan is comparable to war between Israel and Iran.............
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Typhoon »

Carbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
This presumes that

1/ the West is nuts

2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India

What is your evidence for you assertions?

India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.

The wars to come, will be for world distribution of natural resources

in that fight

China and India .. each with 1.6 billion population .. want their share of the world resources

in that sense

initially

they on the opposite side of western powers

but

once west is pushed back, and, resources become free for all

once there

fight shifts to China versus India for those freed resources

.
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Let's Do Space individually & collectively

Post by monster_gardener »

AzariLoveIran wrote:.

The wars to come, will be for world distribution of natural resources

in that fight

China and India .. each with 1.6 billion population .. want their share of the world resources

in that sense

initially

they on the opposite side of western powers

but

once west is pushed back, and, resources become free for all

once there

fight shifts to China versus India for those freed resources

.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.

You may be right..........

I would much rather work toward a dispersed post scarcity society a la "The Culture" by utilizing the resources available in Outer Space and Under the Sea :wink: - Solar Power Satellites, Asteroid Mining & Colonization... Undersea habitats......... Get rid of nuclear waste by putting it in subduction trenches etc..........

But you may be right..........

We/Earth humans may not have the Minds :wink: :( to do so............

I recall reading a year or more ago that China & India were trying to work toward some sort of cooperation.........


As far as US/Uz/the West pulling back from places like, Afghanistan, I'm for that...... Not into the "Great Game" in Asia...

Don't think it really benefits lower level Uz like me and friends........ Trillions to "nation build" in Afghanistan for the benefit of Chinese mining interests, corrupt Afgahn warlords and Uz military concerns............ No thanks......... If the Salafi Slimes dare to consider striking again ......... Strike HARD and leave........ Repeat & Rinse as needed............ Or find a mentor who can settle them down profitably....... Iran? China?? India??? ....... Not Uz...........


If there is a "Great Game" it should be in Outer Space and peaceable........ Greater enemy is the environment there.....

Who is brave and capable enough to be the first to make sure that Dinosaur Killer is diverted........... Set up a solar powered smelter on Mercury...... Try to make it to Alpha Cent...........
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.

Don't know outer space

but

85% of planet earth is below water

meaning lots of resources below water

morally

for justice sake

individual, nations, civilization should benefit from what they create, intellectual creation, intellectual property .. and not rubbing other human's per capital right for planet earth resources

meaning

wealth and richness must come from creative ingenuity and not from Oil&Gas under Mr. Shithead Wahhabi ass


.
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Sparky
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Sparky »

Most resources beneath the sea bed may as well be in outer space.
AzariLoveIran

Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Sparky wrote:.
Most resources beneath the sea bed may as well be in outer space.
.
no difference between resources under sea bed or on continent

Sea bed has changed many times last 100s of millions of yrs

and

metals for sure on other planets

but

most probably

no organic, Oil & Gas , on planets we know


.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Miss_Faucie_Fishtits »

Typhoon wrote:
Carbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
This presumes that

1/ the West is nuts

2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India

What is your evidence for you assertions?

India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
We might have to wait until Jan 2013 before we have something like an answer......;>.........
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Ibrahim
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Ibrahim »

I don't see how China and India would form any kind of "team" or why that would be necessary. Both need to focus on internal matters more than anything, and basically just stay out of each other's way.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Enki »

AzariLoveIran wrote:.

The wars to come, will be for world distribution of natural resources

in that fight

China and India .. each with 1.6 billion population .. want their share of the world resources

in that sense

initially

they on the opposite side of western powers

but

once west is pushed back, and, resources become free for all

once there

fight shifts to China versus India for those freed resources

.
This is one of those reasons that a strong Iran is good for stability in Asia.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Azrael »

Ibrahim wrote:I don't see how China and India would form any kind of "team" or why that would be necessary. Both need to focus on internal matters more than anything, and basically just stay out of each other's way.
Definitely. Unfortunately, China seems to have big ideas when it comes to Taiwan and the South China Sea.

Closer alliance of India with the U.S. or Russia is a lot more likely than a "team" with China.
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AzariLoveIran

Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Enki wrote:
AzariLoveIran wrote:.

The wars to come, will be for world distribution of natural resources

in that fight

China and India .. each with 1.6 billion population .. want their share of the world resources

in that sense

initially

they on the opposite side of western powers

but

once west is pushed back, and, resources become free for all

once there

fight shifts to China versus India for those freed resources

.
This is one of those reasons that a strong Iran is good for stability in Asia.

.

Iran is a "moderating" force in whole that space .. a force that understands, shares same culture, (mostly) same language, religion and much more .. a force that understand the grievances towards west people feel in that space, represents those grievances .. and a force, that is & was, a bridge east to west

in that sense

A strong Iran is in everybody's interest, including Israel

If Iran is weakened, there will be chaos from Uighur to Bosporus, from Daghestan to Tangier and beyond .. and .. no prospect of peace worldwide

on the other side

If west attacks Iran

if so

in that case, people of that space, will conclude, western colonialism, imperialism, still alive and intentions evil

in that case, you looking for 100 yrs of wars ending with western defeat

.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Carbizene »

Typhoon wrote:
Carbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
This presumes that

1/ the West is nuts

2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India

What is your evidence for you assertions?

India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
Western madness: Bombing Iran, destroying Iraq and turning it over to Iran.

When was the last time China or India invaded/bombed a Nation?

I understand that historically my suggestion has as much chance as me genuflecting Kylie Minogue, but things change, Rome thought it would last forever and Kylie Minogue was spotted in a three way a while back in Adelaide.
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Re: China + India = could be love, India & Pak not so much

Post by Carbizene »

monster_gardener wrote: Think that the danger of nuke war between India & Pakistan is comparable to war between Israel and Iran.............
Indeed it is an unlikely/impossible friendship, like Stalin/Hitler.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Carbizene »

Ibrahim wrote:I don't see how China and India would form any kind of "team" or why that would be necessary. Both need to focus on internal matters more than anything, and basically just stay out of each other's way.
The US is seeking to limit China by the TPSP as seen by the escalation in Australia, so it needs allies and India might see the writing on the wall that the West just don't like others sharing the honey pot and cut to the chase, throw in the Russian Federation and one has the makings of a massive, if unlikely bloc.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Typhoon »

Carbizene wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Carbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
This presumes that

1/ the West is nuts

2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India

What is your evidence for you assertions?

India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
Western madness: Bombing Iran, destroying Iraq and turning it over to Iran.

When was the last time China or India invaded/bombed a Nation?

I understand that historically my suggestion has as much chance as me genuflecting Kylie Minogue, but things change, Rome thought it would last forever and Kylie Minogue was spotted in a three way a while back in Adelaide.
Well, the US is not the West and despite repeated threats to do so, it has so far not bombed Iran.

Aggression and war are not unique to the West.

India and Pakistan are constantly on the verge of war.

China is p*ssing off many of it's neighbours with it's absurb territorial claims in the S China Sea. Then there is the Taiwan issue.

Both India and esp China have been constrained to-date by the Pax Americana.
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China & Indian invasion for reason good & bad

Post by monster_gardener »

Carbizene wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Carbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
This presumes that

1/ the West is nuts

2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India

What is your evidence for you assertions?

India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
Western madness: Bombing Iran, destroying Iraq and turning it over to Iran.

When was the last time China or India invaded/bombed a Nation?

I understand that historically my suggestion has as much chance as me genuflecting Kylie Minogue, but things change, Rome thought it would last forever and Kylie Minogue was spotted in a three way a while back in Adelaide.

Thank you Very Much for Your Post, Carbizene.
When was the last time China or India invaded/bombed a Nation?
Both have done it relatively recently.........

In support of the vile Khemer Rouge, China invaded Vietnam. To our shame, the US government supported China in this though I opposed it. Vietnam was our enemy once but Khmer Rouge were perhaps REALLY worse than the Nazis.........

China also invaded Tibet in the overthrow of the Dalai Lama though one might dispute whether Tibet was a independent nation, IMVHO it was.

India invaded East Pakistan/Bangladesh to stop the genocide of the West Pakistanis against the Bangladeshis*

There is also the problem of Kashmir which a Pakistani might consider an invasion.........


*Who recently have begun to persecute Hindus in Bangladesh........... Good deeds are often punished....... :(
Last edited by monster_gardener on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hitler & Stalin - A Friendship Forged in Hell

Post by monster_gardener »

Carbizene wrote:
monster_gardener wrote: Think that the danger of nuke war between India & Pakistan is comparable to war between Israel and Iran.............
Indeed it is an unlikely/impossible friendship, like Stalin/Hitler.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.
Indeed it is an unlikely/impossible friendship, like Stalin/Hitler.
;) :lol: :twisted:

I get your point but how well did that work out in the end for either side.........

Soviets took lots of damage when Hitler betrayed Stalin.........

Germans took perhaps even more damage when Stalin got his revenge..........
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Re: China & Indian invasion for reason good & bad

Post by Carbizene »

monster_gardener wrote: Both have done it relatively recently.........

In support of the vile Khemer Rouge, China invaded Vietnam. To our shame, the US government supported China in this though I opposed it. Vietnam was our enemy month but Khmer Rouge were perhaps REALLY worse than the Nazis.........

China also invaded Tibet in the overthrow of the Dalai Lama though one might dispute whether Tibet was a independent nation, IMVHO it was.

India invaded East Pakistan/Bangladesh to stop the genocide of the West Pakistanis against the Bangladeshis*

There is also the problem of Kashmir which a Pakistani might consider an invasion.........


*Who recently have begun to persecute Hindus in Bangladesh........... Good deeds are often punished....... :(
but neither have invaded countries on the other side of the globe in massive force projection events, destabilisng the entire globe.
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Re: Hitler & Stalin - A Friendship Forged in Hell

Post by Carbizene »

monster_gardener wrote:
I get your point but how well did that work out in the end for either side.........

Soviets took lots of damage when Hitler betrayed Stalin.........

Germans took perhaps even more damage when Stalin got his revenge..........
i guess i'm just saying shotgun weddin's do happen :) i guess sometimes they can work out, just a bit weird at christmas is all.
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Re: What odds China + India = love

Post by Carbizene »

Typhoon wrote: Well, the US is not the West and despite repeated threats to do so, it has so far not bombed Iran.

Aggression and war are not unique to the West.

India and Pakistan are constantly on the verge of war.

China is p*ssing off many of it's neighbours with it's absurb territorial claims in the S China Sea. Then there is the Taiwan issue.

Both India and esp China have been constrained to-date by the Pax Americana.
America and the West are friends with benefits, they get blown when they need + Hans and Pierre are onboard for bombing Iran and of course Edward already has his mouth full.

Pax Americana should be Cashius Americana

China's actions could be seen as response to the TPSP, exactly the same as Japans response to Gunboat diplomacy.

it's a great machiavellian bait and switch, poke someone in the eye and get indignant when they punch you in the face, like flying a drone over a country and getting shitty when they don't give it back...now that is symptomatic of a break from reality.
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China could have conquered world. Almost did. under a Persia

Post by monster_gardener »

Carbizene wrote:
monster_gardener wrote: Both have done it relatively recently.........

In support of the vile Khemer Rouge, China invaded Vietnam. To our shame, the US government supported China in this though I opposed it. Vietnam was our enemy month but Khmer Rouge were perhaps REALLY worse than the Nazis.........

China also invaded Tibet in the overthrow of the Dalai Lama though one might dispute whether Tibet was a independent nation, IMVHO it was.

India invaded East Pakistan/Bangladesh to stop the genocide of the West Pakistanis against the Bangladeshis*

There is also the problem of Kashmir which a Pakistani might consider an invasion.........


*Who recently have begun to persecute Hindus in Bangladesh........... Good deeds are often punished....... :(
but neither have invaded countries on the other side of the globe in massive force projection events, destabilisng the entire globe.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.......

To the best of my knowledge India never has in this timeline........

So far China under the Mao-Deng dynasty has not yet done so but there is not so ancient precedent for China to be REALLY Imperial.....

Best example was under the Mongol Yuan Dynasty where they came close to conquering ALL of Eurasia including Europe.......
It can be debated whether the Yuan were a "True Chinese" :wink: Dynasty but for a Divine wind and IIRC a retreat from Europe for a Dynastic Powwow, they might have done it............

And IIRC there was the beginning of another near miss........ winging this but....... Remembering a period where China under a Chinese Muslim Eunuch became exploratory & proto-Imperial: India, Africa (brought back a Kirin Giraffe) ...... Got the impression from the prof that if the Dowager hadn't shut it down, China might have done its own version of the British Empire........ Who knows?........

BINGO! Got it mostly right Was in the Ming Dynasty, the CHINESE Chinese dynasty right after the Yuan........but per Wiki it was the next Emp who shut down the show........

Azari should like this........ The Eunuch Admiral was of PERSIAN descent........
Zheng He (1371–1433; simplified Chinese: 郑和; traditional Chinese: 鄭和; pinyin: Zhèng Hé), also known as Ma Sanbao (simplified Chinese: 马三宝; traditional Chinese: 馬三寶) and Hajji Mahmud Shamsuddin (Persian: حاجی محمود شمس الدين‎) was a Hui-Chinese mariner, explorer, diplomat and fleet admiral, who commanded voyages to Southeast Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, East Africa, and the Horn of Africa collectively referred to as the Voyages of Zheng He or Voyages of Cheng Ho from 1405 to 1433.

Zheng, born as Ma He[1] (馬和 / 马和), was the second son of a Muslim family which also had four daughters, from Kunyang, present day Jinning, just south of Kunming near the southwest corner of Lake Dian in Yunnan.[2][3][4]

He was the great great great grandson of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar, a Persian who served in the administration of the Mongolian Empire and was appointed governor of Yunnan during the early Yuan Dynasty.[5][6] Both his grandfather and great-grandfather carried the title of Hajji, which indicates they had made the pilgrimage to Mecca.
Between 1405 and 1433, the Ming government sponsored seven naval expeditions. The Yongle emperor designed them to establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin and extend the empire's tributary system. It has also been claimed, on the basis of later texts, that the voyages also presented an opportunity to seek out Zhu Yunwen (the previous emperor whom the Yongle emperor had usurped and who was rumored to have fled into exile) – possibly the "largest scale manhunt on water in the history of China".[10]

Zheng He was placed as the admiral in control of the huge fleet and armed forces that undertook these expeditions. Wang Jinghong was appointed his second in command. Zheng He's first voyage, which departed July 11, 1405, from Suzhou,[11]:203 consisted of a fleet of 317 ships[12][13][14] (other sources say 200 ships) holding almost 28,000 crewmen (each ship housing up to 500 men).[12]
One of a set of maps of Zheng He's missions (郑和航海图), also known as the Mao Kun maps, 1628.

Zheng He's fleets visited Arabia, Brunei, the Horn of Africa, India, Southeast Asia and Thailand, dispensing and receiving goods along the way.[14] Zheng He presented gifts of gold, silver, porcelain and silk; in return, China received such novelties as ostriches, zebras, camels, ivory and a giraffe from the Swahili. [15].[11]:206[14][16] [17]

While Zheng He's fleet was unprecedented (compared to previous voyages from China to the east Indian Ocean), the routes were not. Zheng He's fleet was following long-established, well-mapped routes. Sea-based trade links had existed between China and the Arabian peninsula since the Han Dynasty (there being trade with the Roman Empire at that time.) During the Three Kingdoms, the king of Wu sent a diplomatic mission along the coast of Asia, reaching as far as the Eastern Roman Empire. During the Song Dynasty, there was large scale maritime trade from China reaching as far as the Arabian peninsula and East Africa.[18]

Zheng He generally sought to attain his goals through diplomacy, and his large army awed most would-be enemies into submission. But a contemporary reported that Zheng He "walked like a tiger" and did not shrink from violence when he considered it necessary to impress foreign peoples with China's military might.[19] He ruthlessly suppressed pirates who had long plagued Chinese and southeast Asian waters. For example, he would defeat Chen Zuyi, one of the most feared and respected pirate captains, and return him back to China for execution.[20] He also waged a land war against the Kingdom of Kotte in Ceylon, and he made displays of military force when local officials threatened his fleet in Arabia and East Africa. From his fourth voyage, he brought envoys from thirty states who traveled to China and paid their respects at the Ming court.


In 1424, the Yongle Emperor died. His successor, the Hongxi Emperor (reigned 1424–1425), decided to stop the voyages during his short reign. Zheng He made one more voyage during the reign of Hongxi's son Xuande Emperor (reigned 1426–1435), but after that the voyages of the Chinese treasure ship fleets were ended. Xuande believed his father's decision to halt the voyages meritorious, and thus "there would be no need to make a detailed description of his grandfather’s sending Zheng He to the Western Oceans."[21] This, and the fact that the voyages "were contrary to the rules stipulated in the Huangming zuxun, Ancestral Injunctions of the August Ming,"[21] the royal founding documents laid down by the Hongwu Emperor, account for the Ming "neglect" of Zheng He in official accounts and the scant records of the voyages available for later historians.[21]

Zheng He died during the treasure fleet's last voyage. Although he has a tomb in China, it is empty: he was, like many great admirals, buried at sea.[2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

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