Japan

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Alexis
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Re: Japan

Post by Alexis »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:An obvious PS job. The fabric folds don't come through on the logo.
Why did you have to take a second look at the logo, for Chri... err I mean Mohamed's sake? :cry:

Was a fun image, I say. Some would have been fooled, I say.
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Japan

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Alexis wrote:
Nonc Hilaire wrote:An obvious PS job. The fabric folds don't come through on the logo.
Why did you have to take a second look at the logo, for Chri... err I mean Mohamed's sake? :cry:

Was a fun image, I say. Some would have been fooled, I say.
Too many years teaching PS. If you want a free, PS job send it to me! I can do a job even the forensics teams won't figure out!
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Japan

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Hirohito conceded
not surrendered


.

Having now read the text of the Emperor’s speech, I have a better understanding of why the self-image of post-war Japan can be so vastly different from the view of Japan by others.

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IMO, Japan was right in that dispute .. Brits were controlling all South Asian natural resources, and, "sanctioning" Japan

Japan and Germany were asking for their part of the natural resources (would have meant destruction of British empire).

Well, where is British Empire now ? ? ? ca ne exist plus

AND ? ?

Now, Japan & Germany have free access to world natural resources, "not exactly, but nearly".

AND ? ?

Now, CHINA in same situation as Germany and Japan 1900

China (India, Iran, Africa, South America) want "rapid" economic development

But

West is controlling those "natural resources", Middle East & Africa & South America and still using "Sanctions" as was used to Japan and Germany

And ? ?

Stay tuned :lol: :lol:


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Endovelico
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August 6, 1945

Post by Endovelico »

Image

Image

Some war crimes will never be brought to trial...
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Typhoon
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Re: Japan

Post by Typhoon »

Indeed . . .

Image
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Heracleum Persicum
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Re: Japan

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Five myths about the atomic bomb


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1. The bomb ended the war.

The notion that the atomic bombs caused the Japanese surrender on Aug. 15, 1945, has been, for many Americans and virtually all U.S. history textbooks, the default understanding of how and why the war ended. But minutes of the meetings of the Japanese government reveal a more complex story. The latest and best scholarship on the surrender, based on Japanese records, concludes that the Soviet Union’s unexpected entry into the war against Japan on Aug. 8 was probably an even greater shock to Tokyo than the atomic bombing of Hiroshima two days earlier. Until then, the Japanese had been hoping that the Russians — who had previously signed a nonaggression pact with Japan — might be intermediaries in negotiating an end to the war . As historian Tsuyoshi Hasegawa writes in his book “Racing the Enemy,” “Indeed, Soviet attack, not the Hiroshima bomb, convinced political leaders to end the war.” The two events together — plus the dropping of the second atomic bomb on Aug. 9 — were decisive in making the case for surrender.

2. The bomb saved half a million American lives.

In his postwar memoirs, former president Harry Truman recalled how military leaders had told him that a half-million Americans might be killed in an invasion of Japan. This figure has become canonical among those seeking to justify the bombing. But it is not supported by military estimates of the time. As Stanford historian Barton Bernstein has noted, the U.S. Joint War Plans Committee predicted in mid-June 1945 that the invasion of Japan, set to begin Nov. 1, would result in 193,000 U.S. casualties, including 40,000 deaths.

But, as Truman also observed after the war, if he had not used the atomic bomb when it was ready and GIs had died on the invasion beaches, he would have faced the righteous wrath of the American people.

3. The only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan.

The decision to use nuclear weapons is usually presented as either/or: either drop the bomb or land on the beaches. But beyond simply continuing the conventional bombing and naval blockade of Japan, there were two other options recognized at the time.

The first was a demonstration of the atomic bomb prior to or instead of its military use: exploding the bomb on an uninhabited island or in the desert, in front of invited observers from Japan and other countries; or using it to blow the top off Mount Fuji, outside Tokyo. The demonstration option was rejected for practical reasons. There were only two bombs available in August 1945, and the demonstration bomb might turn out to be a dud.

The second alternative was accepting a conditional surrender by Japan. The United States knew from intercepted communications that the Japanese were most concerned that Emperor Hirohito not be treated as a war criminal. The “emperor clause” was the final obstacle to Japan’s capitulation. (President Franklin Roosevelt had insisted upon unconditional surrender, and Truman reiterated that demand after Roosevelt’s death in mid-April 1945.)

Although the United States ultimately got Japan’s unconditional surrender, the emperor clause was, in effect, granted after the fact. “I have no desire whatever to debase [Hirohito] in the eyes of his own people,” Gen. Douglas MacArthur, supreme commander of the Allied powers in Japan after the war, assured Tokyo’s diplomats following the surrender.


4. The Japanese were warned before the bomb was dropped.

The United States had dropped leaflets over many Japanese cities, urging civilians to flee, before hitting them with conventional bombs. After the Potsdam Declaration of July 26, 1945, which called on the Japanese to surrender, leaflets warned of “prompt and utter destruction” unless Japan heeded that order. In a radio address, Truman also told of a coming “rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this Earth.” These actions have led many to believe that civilians were meaningfully warned of the pending nuclear attack. Indeed, a common refrain in letters to the editor and debates about the bomb is: “The Japanese were warned.”

But there was never any specific warning to the cities that had been chosen as targets for the atomic bomb prior to the weapon’s first use. The omission was deliberate: The United States feared that the Japanese, being forewarned, would shoot down the planes carrying the bombs. And since Japanese cities were already being destroyed by incendiary and high-explosive bombs on a regular basis — nearly 100,000 people were killed the previous March in the firebombing of Tokyo — there was no reason to believe that either the Potsdam Declaration or Truman’s speech would receive special notice.

5. The bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics.

This claim has been a staple of revisionist historiography, which argues that U.S. policymakers hoped the bomb might end the war against Japan before the Soviet entry into the conflict gave the Russians a significant role in a postwar peace settlement. Using the bomb would also impress the Russians with the power of the new weapon, which the United States had alone.

In reality, military planning, not diplomatic advantage, dictated the timing of the atomic attacks. The bombs were ordered to be dropped “as soon as made ready.”

Postwar political considerations did affect the choice of targets for the atomic bombs. Secretary of War Henry Stimson ordered that the historically and culturally significant city of Kyoto be stricken from the target list. (Stimson was personally familiar with Kyoto; he and his wife had spent part of their honeymoon there.) Truman agreed, according to Stimson, on the grounds that “the bitterness which would be caused by such a wanton act might make it impossible during the long postwar period to reconcile the Japanese to us in that area rather than to the Russians.”

Like Stimson, Truman’s secretary of state, James Byrnes, hoped that the bomb might prove to be a “master card” in subsequent diplomatic dealings with the Soviet Union — but both were disappointed. In September 1945, Byrnes returned from the first postwar meeting of foreign ministers, in London, lamenting that the Russians were “stubborn, obstinate, and they don’t scare.”

.

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Alexis
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Re: Japan

Post by Alexis »

Heracleum Persicum wrote:Five myths about the atomic bomb
Image


Endovelico wrote:Some war crimes will never be brought to trial...
That's a fact. If for no other reason, then because of having disappeared in 1989, after having been protected from trial from 1945 due to political reasons - specifically the need to let Japan develop in peace without the troubling spectacle of an Emperor brought to trial. Then mayor of Nagasaki experienced first hand in 1990 how much the subject is touchy.
In late 1988 during his third mayoral term, news that the Shōwa Emperor was gravely ill and not expected to live long had put Japan into a somber mood. On December 7 Motoshima was asked in a city council meeting by a council member from the Communist Party his opinion of the Emperor's responsibility for World War II. He answered:

Forty-three years have passed since the end of the war, and I think we have had enough chance to reflect on the nature of the war. From reading various accounts from abroad and having been a soldier myself, involved in military education, I do believe that the emperor bore responsibility for the war...
—(Buruma 1994:249)

The Liberal Democratic Party Prefectural Committee immediately demanded that he retract the statement, but Motoshima rejected the demand, saying he could not betray his conscience. In response, the Party Prefectural Committee removed him from the post of committee advisor, and many conservative organizations vilified the mayor. Furthermore, many extreme right-wing groups converged on Nagasaki and demonstrated in the streets with more than eighty speaker trucks calling out for divine retribution upon the mayor.

On January 18, 1990, when police had relaxed their guard on the mayor, a member of the right-wing group Seikijuku shot Motoshima in the back, but he survived the assassination attempt.


To put in perspective the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, the total of deceased from all causes and at all times (including twenty or thirty years from induced cancers) of these two atomic bombings is somewhere between 300 and 400,000 dead. The total of deceased during the Asian part of WWII is estimated somewhere between 15 and 20 million dead. That is, the atomic bombings are only 2% (TWO percent) of the destructions brought during the Asian part of WWII.

The fact that these bombings generate far more than 2% of all debates and discussions about Asian WWII is a consequence of our fear of being victim of such an atomic bombing, more than of any other cause. It's just more difficult to relate say to a Chinese peasant killed by a bayonette or by hunger, because we find it more difficult to imagine being victim of such. Hence the urge to get indignant about those specific 2% of victims.


Heracleum Persicum wrote:Hirohito conceded
not surrendered


IMO, Japan was right in that dispute .. Brits were controlling all South Asian natural resources, and, "sanctioning" Japan
If you re-read the text you have been linking, you will remark that the author speaks from the point of view of Chinese victims of Japan's "dispute", not at all from the point of view of British, or any other empire.
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Re: Japan

Post by Typhoon »

Nippon | The Olympic Stadium and the Anatomy of Incompetence

I'm just relieved that Godzilla won't show up looking for his missing bicycle helmet.
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Re: Japan

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Tokyo | 1948

G_yvwod7ud4
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Re: Japan

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Alexis wrote:To put in perspective the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, the total of deceased from all causes and at all times (including twenty or thirty years from induced cancers) of these two atomic bombings is somewhere between 300 and 400,000 dead. The total of deceased during the Asian part of WWII is estimated somewhere between 15 and 20 million dead. That is, the atomic bombings are only 2% (TWO percent) of the destructions brought during the Asian part of WWII.
Pity that Alexis doesn't consider the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were deliberate terrorist attacks on civilian population, not on legitimate military targets. From a moral point of view similar to a thief coming into Alexis house and shooting his children one by one to force him to surrender the contents of his safe. Only 100,000 times worse. I suppose that if Nazis had had the atomic bomb and had dropped one on Paris, on London or on New York, Alexis would have been slightly less complacent about such a minor event...
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Re: Japan

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Endovelico wrote:
Alexis wrote:To put in perspective the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, the total of deceased from all causes and at all times (including twenty or thirty years from induced cancers) of these two atomic bombings is somewhere between 300 and 400,000 dead. The total of deceased during the Asian part of WWII is estimated somewhere between 15 and 20 million dead. That is, the atomic bombings are only 2% (TWO percent) of the destructions brought during the Asian part of WWII.
Pity that Alexis doesn't consider the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were deliberate terrorist attacks on civilian population, not on legitimate military targets. From a moral point of view similar to a thief coming into Alexis house and shooting his children one by one to force him to surrender the contents of his safe. Only 100,000 times worse. I suppose that if Nazis had had the atomic bomb and had dropped one on Paris, on London or on New York, Alexis would have been slightly less complacent about such a minor event...
Endovelico wrote:
Alexis wrote:To put in perspective the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, the total of deceased from all causes and at all times (including twenty or thirty years from induced cancers) of these two atomic bombings is somewhere between 300 and 400,000 dead. The total of deceased during the Asian part of WWII is estimated somewhere between 15 and 20 million dead. That is, the atomic bombings are only 2% (TWO percent) of the destructions brought during the Asian part of WWII.
Pity that Alexis doesn't consider the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were deliberate terrorist attacks on civilian population, not on legitimate military targets. From a moral point of view similar to a thief coming into Alexis house and shooting his children one by one to force him to surrender the contents of his safe. Only 100,000 times worse. I suppose that if Nazis had had the atomic bomb and had dropped one on Paris, on London or on New York, Alexis would have been slightly less complacent about such a minor event...
The firebombing of Tokyo and other cities killed more civilians than than the two nuclear attacks combined. LeMay is on record acknowledging that he was aware that he was commiting war crimes.

WW2 in the East was total war in the old school sense of take no prisoners, military or civilian.
Racism provided additional rationale for the atrocities commited by all sides.

Given this reality I am completely unsympathetic to whining by any nation involved. Especially given that the actual participants are now mostly dead.

Japan surrendered to forestall a possible Russian invasion and occupation.
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Re: Japan

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Typhoon wrote:The firebombing of Tokyo and other cities killed more civilians than than the two nuclear attacks combined. LeMay is on record acknowledging that he was aware that he was commiting war crimes.

WW2 in the East was total war in the old school sense of take no prisoners, military or civilian. Racism provided additional rationale for the atrocities commited by all sides.

Given this reality I am completely unsympathetic to whining by any nation involved. Especially given that the actual participants are now mostly dead.

Japan surrendered to forestall a possible Russian invasion and occupation.
As a Portuguese national I was not - nor was my country - in any way involved in the said atrocities. Condemning them is thus not a matter of "whining". But I am still a member of the human race and I cannot condone any attempts at minimizing the horrors of the two atomic bombings. There is no excuse and, to my mind, no possible forgiveness for such atrocities. That so many Japanese people seem to feel comfortable with the continued presence of American armed forces on Japanese soil is something I find difficult to understand.
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Re: Japan

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Endovelico wrote:
Typhoon wrote:The firebombing of Tokyo and other cities killed more civilians than than the two nuclear attacks combined. LeMay is on record acknowledging that he was aware that he was commiting war crimes.

WW2 in the East was total war in the old school sense of take no prisoners, military or civilian. Racism provided additional rationale for the atrocities commited by all sides.

Given this reality I am completely unsympathetic to whining by any nation involved. Especially given that the actual participants are now mostly dead.

Japan surrendered to forestall a possible Russian invasion and occupation.
As a Portuguese national I was not - nor was my country - in any way involved in the said atrocities. Condemning them is thus not a matter of "whining". But I am still a member of the human race and I cannot condone any attempts at minimizing the horrors of the two atomic bombings. There is no excuse and, to my mind, no possible forgiveness for such atrocities. That so many Japanese people seem to feel comfortable with the continued presence of American armed forces on Japanese soil is something I find difficult to understand.
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Endovelico
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Re: Japan

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Parodite wrote:Hitler was a separatist.. what is your problem.
I wish I knew what you mean by that...
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Re: Japan

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the only thing relevant about ww2 to us modern types is how some countries have shown that looking forward is far superior to wallowing in the past.

the japanese, americans and australians have all long since moved on from the horrors that went in both directions, other cultures, not so much.
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Re: Japan

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noddy wrote:the only thing relevant about ww2 to us modern types is how some countries have shown that looking forward is far superior to wallowing in the past.

the japanese, americans and australians have all long since moved on from the horrors that went in both directions, other cultures, not so much.
No statute of limitations for some types of crimes. Forgetting and forgiving is very convenient for the perpetrators... For some reason Jews refuse to forget and forgive the holocaust.
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Re: Japan

Post by noddy »

Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:the only thing relevant about ww2 to us modern types is how some countries have shown that looking forward is far superior to wallowing in the past.

the japanese, americans and australians have all long since moved on from the horrors that went in both directions, other cultures, not so much.
No statute of limitations for some types of crimes. Forgetting and forgiving is very convenient for the perpetrators... For some reason Jews refuse to forget and forgive the holocaust.
the jews were innocent bystanders slaughtered for no real reason, its not like they where at war with germany and doing their own atrocities, their is no comparison or no reason to bring that into this, its absurdity.

the japanese butchery of prisoners of war and civilians was between 3 and 10 million people depending on who does the math (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes)

its all good for anti nuclear folks to say that the americans should not have landed the final blow but when its a tit for tat total war of atrocities, kicking em one more time when they are down is quite natural, unfortunately.

the main point you skipped is that besides the chinese, everyone else has moved on and has no wish to wallow in the past, we are all each others best trading partners now - i have zero bad feelings for the japanese even tho my grandad fought them tooth and nail and many people in my wider family died or suffered.

as typhoon and alexis clearly stated, there is plenty of opportunity for both sides to bring up war crimes if they so choose, there are no innocent parties here.
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Re: Japan

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noddy wrote:its all good for anti nuclear folks to say that the americans should not have landed the final blow but when its a tit for tat total war of atrocities, kicking em one more time when they are down is quite natural, unfortunately.
Condoning nuclear bombings as just an additional way of kicking the enemy - are non-combatant civilians ever the enemy? - is opening the door for more such bombings in the future. Let's hope none of us will ever become victims of such nonchalant attitude towards mass murder...
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Re: Japan

Post by noddy »

Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:its all good for anti nuclear folks to say that the americans should not have landed the final blow but when its a tit for tat total war of atrocities, kicking em one more time when they are down is quite natural, unfortunately.
Condoning nuclear bombings as just an additional way of kicking the enemy - are non-combatant civilians ever the enemy? - is opening the door for more such bombings in the future. Let's hope none of us will ever become victims of such nonchalant attitude towards mass murder...
i condone nothing, you completely miss the point, which is nice.

your anti americanism is cloudig some perspective - the bomb is no better or worse way of being butchered than starving in a concentration camp, or being kicked to death by jackboots or....
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Re: Japan

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noddy wrote:your anti americanism is cloudig some perspective - the bomb is no better or worse way of being butchered than starving in a concentration camp, or being kicked to death by jackboots or....
I may then suppose that mass murdering 6 million Jews in gas chambers is just about the same thing as killing 6 million Jews with 6 million bullets...Or isn't it?... Personally, I see a difference, but maybe you don't...
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Re: Japan

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Endovelico wrote:
noddy wrote:your anti americanism is cloudig some perspective - the bomb is no better or worse way of being butchered than starving in a concentration camp, or being kicked to death by jackboots or....
I may then suppose that mass murdering 6 million Jews in gas chambers is just about the same thing as killing 6 million Jews with 6 million bullets...Or isn't it?... Personally, I see a difference, but maybe you don't...
During GW 1, some group became upset that the US military killed some Iraqi soldiers by simply bulldozing over their trenches with the Iraqis still in them.

A US soldier gave the best and succinct reply: "I don't know of a nice way to kill people."

____

This is the Japan thread.

For those who wish to debate the moral issues of the mass murder of innocent Jewish civilians during the Nazi era, find the appropriate thread to do so.
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Re: Japan

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.


Why We Spy on the Japanese
NSA spying often occurs because the resources are in place,
and have to be used for something.


The most recent news reports based on five Wikileaks documents, plus a list of targeted telephone numbers, detail how Washington spied on senior members of the Japanese government, as well as on banks and companies such as the major diversified conglomerates Mitsui and Mitsubishi, referred to as keiretsu.

According to the documents that were made public, 35 numbers were targeted specifically by the NSA for coverage between 2006 and 2009. The electronic intrusion permitted Washington to obtain information on trade talks, policies relating to energy and climate change, as well as secret briefings involving Japan’s then-prime minister that took place at his official residence.

..

One has to suspect that NSA spying often occurs just because the resources are in place and have to be used for something. We Americans spy on everyone mostly because we can.

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Re: Japan

Post by Typhoon »

And in other news, water is wet.

Everyone spies on everyone else. Allies upon allies, rivals upon rivals.
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Re: Japan

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Endovelico wrote:
Parodite wrote:Hitler was a separatist.. what is your problem.
I wish I knew what you mean by that...
The atrocities of Hitler can be understood as the reaction of a man and a people who were subdued, humiliated and isolated by various outside forces; within Europe the former winners of WW1 who squeezed Germany in a nasty corner at Versailles, in the East a communist Empire unfriendly to local populations and always pushing for more, and in the far West a super power always taking sides with Germany's enemies within Europe. And of course Jews who infiltrated all layers of society.

People forget that as such the Nazi Germans felt compressed, cornered, squeezed and robbed of their national honor and cultural heritage, and made vulnerable to outside forces. Not to mention the many Germans that ended up in various pockets in Europe, totally isolated from the motherland.

They were motivated by the same sentiments and experiences as the many other peoples fighting for their own identity and territory under threat. Like separatists. Starting an armed revolution is what you do under those circumstances. Given your sympathy for separatist movements I just thought to point it out. ;)
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Re: Japan

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Parodite wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Parodite wrote:Hitler was a separatist.. what is your problem.
I wish I knew what you mean by that...
The atrocities of Hitler can be understood as the reaction of a man and a people who were subdued, humiliated and isolated by various outside forces; within Europe the former winners of WW1 who squeezed Germany in a nasty corner at Versailles, in the East a communist Empire unfriendly to local populations and always pushing for more, and in the far West a super power always taking sides with Germany's enemies within Europe. And of course Jews who infiltrated all layers of society.

People forget that as such the Nazi Germans felt compressed, cornered, squeezed and robbed of their national honor and cultural heritage, and made vulnerable to outside forces. Not to mention the many Germans that ended up in various pockets in Europe, totally isolated from the motherland.

They were motivated by the same sentiments and experiences as the many other peoples fighting for their own identity and territory under threat. Like separatists. Starting an armed revolution is what you do under those circumstances. Given your sympathy for separatist movements I just thought to point it out. ;)
Sounds a bit like Greece. Getting ready to dump Syriza for Neo-Nazi party due to the fact that EU obviously does not give a flying fluck.
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