The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Mr. Perfect
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote: It comes back to you trying to pass the Tea Party off as an actual party. Why?
The Tea Party is a sorta party. I'm not sure why you would need me to tell you that.
I have you opposing them for me.
And you have the entire MSM opposing the TP. You can retire now, they have all this covered. If my oppostion of the democrats is sufficient for you then the MSM will be orders of magnitude more sufficient. Rest easy ymix, every negative thing you can possible say about the TP is shouted from every rooftop already. You can go to your rest.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:The Tea Party is a sorta party.
Not good enough.
And you have the entire MSM opposing the TP.
Couldn't care less.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote: Not good enough.
Not good enough for what. The Tea Party is a sorta party and always has been. I can't change reality for you. Reality is reality.
Couldn't care less.
I think we all get that, you care about some things and not others, but won't every really say why or what for. Exposing the fact that you have biases and agendas you will not disclose. Compare with myself who disclose all my biases and agendas as soon as I possibly can.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Not good enough for what. The Tea Party is a sorta party and always has been. I can't change reality for you. Reality is reality.
"The Tea Party is a faction within the GOP, not an independent party. Wake me up when things change." I can repost this again and again.
I think we all get that, you care about some things and not others, but won't every really say why or what for. Exposing the fact that you have biases and agendas you will not disclose. Compare with myself who disclose all my biases and agendas as soon as I possibly can.
Dead end conversation. I'm more than willing to explain myself, Probably too much. Unfortunately, you are not interested in my biases or my agenda, but simply in trying to prove that I am what ever you think a Democrat/liberal/leftist is. This is one of the things that make you a boring spambot and leads me to not taking any discussion with you very seriously.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by kmich »

YMix wrote:Dead end conversation. I'm more than willing to explain myself, Probably too much. Unfortunately, you are not interested in my biases or my agenda, but simply in trying to prove that I am what ever you think a Democrat/liberal/leftist is. This is one of the things that make you a boring spambot and leads me to not taking any discussion with you very seriously.
Yep. Anyway, Mr. Perfect is not a “conservative".

Come to think of it, neither are the GOP and the “Tea Party” fakes he champions:

Our Spineless Duopoly Strikes Again
From a new war in the Middle East to the reauthorization of a corrupt government programs, Republicans always find a way to disappoint everyone.

The GOP’s metamorphosis from what Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal once called the stupid party into a party that is both stupid and useless is almost complete.

Between Wednesday’s votes in favor of bills that put federal spending on autopilot through December 11 and arm and train Syrian rebels, the Republicans are no longer even pretending to offer a serious alternative to a status quo deeply at odds with their supposed political philosophy. That’s not just bad for the GOP’s political fortunes—it’s bad for the country. Why have two parties when they’re effectively the same outfit?

Republicans have long talked a good game about wanting to cut the size, scope, and spending of government without ever really delivering the goods (see, for instance, the George W. Bush years). But these days, they can’t even be bothered to fake it. Gone is any of the budget-cutting brio that animated not only Tea Party enthusiasts a few years back but incoming House leadership just a couple of months ago.

They can’t be bothered to fight for even the smallest of trims. After Republican House Majority Leader Eric Cantor was unexpectedly bounced in his June primary, his replacement Kevin McCarthy announced that he was ready to let the wasteful and corrupt Export-Import Bank (or Ex-Im) expire at the end of September. That was not only refreshing to hear, it seemed to signal that the GOP might actually start drawing out differences on economic policy between it and the Democratic Party. Maybe, just maybe, the party of Lincoln was finally getting serious about that total reboot they’d promised after the 2012 elections.

Created by Franklin Roosevelt during the Depression, Ex-Im offers $150 billion of taxpayer-backed loans and other financing to foreign countries to buy American products. It has long been attacked by free traders as a blatant form of corporate welfare that subsidizes the purchase of airplanes made by Boeing, farm equipment by John Deere, heavy machinery by Caterpillar, and various products made by such struggling firms as General Electric. On the very weekend it was announced that McCarthy would replace Cantor in the House leadership, he was asked whether he would let Ex-Im expire. “Yes,” McCarthy told Fox News, “because it’s something the private sector can be able to do.”

In a two-party system, we’re effectively down to one party that wants to keep spending essentially the same and to start a new war without having to go on the record as voting for it or against it.

Well, that was then. Ex-Im funding will now be temporarily extended, and then the GOP will figure out a way to reauthorize it for another few years. After the midterms, look for stories talking up “bold” and “important” reforms that will do nothing to redirect the hyper-concentrated flow of Ex-Im funds to a single state (Washington, which pulls in over 40 percent of all disbursements).

Then there’s the resolution to arm and train “moderate” Syrian rebels, so they can fight a two-front war against both the hideous Assad regime and the barbaric Islamic State. This was a an amendment to the continuing resolution and it passed easily by a vote of 273 to 156, with Republicans voting two-to-one in favor. It now goes to the Senate, where there will be a single vote on the whole megillah: regular government spending, plus the training dollars for our new rebel friends. It is expected to pass easily in the Senate.

The GOP, which claims to be the party that pledges maniacal fealty to the Constitution, can’t be bothered to push for a declaration of war, but it’s happy to shovel more borrowed money toward a dodgy group of Syrians. “I frankly think the president’s request is a sound one,” Speaker of the House John Boehner told The Washington Times. The only real disagreement among Republicans is whether to put American soldiers on the ground to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria, which appears to be what Sen. John McCain is pushing for.

As the differences between the two parties are blunted, it’s no wonder that Republican chances for retaking the Senate are evaporating faster than those anticipated federal surpluses in the early Aughts. “Democrats now have a 51 percent chance of holding the Senate,” reports The Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza, who notes that just a few months ago, the odds were better than 80 percent that the Republicans would pick up six seats to gain a majority in both houses of Congress.

The Republicans’ utter lack of temerity is somewhat understandable. Their leaders have long refused to commit to any real change, even when Tea Party fever was at its highest (the few times Republicans pushed for spending trims—such as when the GOP called for cutting food stamps while growing farm subsidies—have been less than inspiring). Much like Mitt Romney, who, spent five long years steadfastly refusing to name any major federal program he would cut, the current crop of party leaders is terrified of laying out any specific plans. Romney played defense all the way, as did Boehner upon becoming Speaker of the House.

Just a couple of weeks before ascending to the big-boy chair in the House of Representatives in 2011, Boehner was asked to “name a program right now that we could do without.” His answer: “I don’t think I have one off the top of my head.”

Years later, at a time when President Obama has managed to turn off even his longtime fans in the press, the GOP still doesn’t really have any answers or reforms or changes that it’s willing to share with the voting public.

In a two-party system, we’re effectively down to one party that wants to keep spending essentially the same and to start a new war without having to go on the record as voting for it or against it. No wonder that just 25 percent of Americans identify as Republican, according to Gallup, and the GOP probably won’t win the Senate despite appalling poll numbers for Obama’s Democrats. Because when you go from being stupid to being useless, voters are smart to stick with the status quo, no matter how miserable it might be.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

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kmich wrote: Come to think of it, neither are the GOP and the “Tea Party” fakes he champions:
Come to think about it the democrats are sooo much worse.

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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote: "The Tea Party is a faction within the GOP, not an independent party. Wake me up when things change." I can repost this again and again.
Why would you. You can say a thing over and over again but it wouldn't make it relevant to anything.

The TP/GOP rift is no different than any other internal dispute but you call attention to it as if it's unique when it isn't. Betraying your unadmitted biases and agenda.
Dead end conversation. I'm more than willing to explain myself,
Anytime you're ready.
Probably too much. Unfortunately, you are not interested in my biases or my agenda,
At the moment nothing would interest me more.
but simply in trying to prove that I am what ever you think a Democrat/liberal/leftist is. This is one of the things that make you a boring spambot and leads me to not taking any discussion with you very seriously.
I think when you have two parties who are both guilty of a thing (internal divisions and power struggles) and you condemn one party and not tho other in the real world it is safe to conclude you are for one side and not the other.

Why this is spam on my part as opposed to your part escapes me, but I'm all ears. You have the mic.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by Mr. Perfect »

kmich wrote: Yep. Anyway, Mr. Perfect is not a “conservative,” in spite of all his chest thumping. He is more a contemporary version of Jean-Paul Marat, ferretting and diligently exposing and prosecuting Girondins than reflective of the sober reflection, pragmatism, and insight of an Edmund Burke. There is really no reason to take him or his prancing about as a "conservative" at all seriously.

Come to think of it, neither are the GOP and the “Tea Party” fakes he champions:


Our Spineless Duopoly Strikes Again
Is irony the right word? To condemn prosecutorial chest thumping non sober, non reflective, non pragmatic prancing behavior in one paragraph and then promote it in the next?

Or is there another word.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Why would you. You can say a thing over and over again but it wouldn't make it relevant to anything.
Why wouldn't I? I want the political duopoly gone, but that's not going to happen from within the GOP.
The TP/GOP rift is no different than any other internal dispute but you call attention to it as if it's unique when it isn't. Betraying your unadmitted biases and agenda.
It's what interests me. Since you keep saying that the GOP and the Tea Party are the Champions of Freedom, I'd like to know why they are trying to destroy each other.
Anytime you're ready.
Go ahead and ask your questions.
At the moment nothing would interest me more.
Would it now?
I think when you have two parties who are both guilty of a thing (internal divisions and power struggles) and you condemn one party and not tho other in the real world it is safe to conclude you are for one side and not the other.
It's safe to conclude that the antics of one party interest me more than the antics of the other. I don't support either party.
Why this is spam on my part as opposed to your part escapes me, but I'm all ears. You have the mic.
Because you have only one topic of discussion.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

kmich wrote:Yep. Anyway, Mr. Perfect is not a “conservative,” in spite of all his chest thumping. He is more a contemporary version of Jean-Paul Marat, ferretting and diligently exposing and prosecuting Girondins than reflective of the sober reflection, pragmatism, and insight of an Edmund Burke. There is really no reason to take him or his prancing about as a "conservative" at all seriously.

Come to think of it, neither are the GOP and the “Tea Party” fakes he champions:
On a more general note, I think the so-called "US conservative" movement espouses an economic radicalism that has little in common with what the Founding Fathers or the Framers did.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote: Why wouldn't I? I want the political duopoly gone, but that's not going to happen from within the GOP.
I guess we can agree with that. The Democrat monopoly seemed quite agreeable with you at the time. I'm sure you want the 2nd party gone.
It's what interests me. Since you keep saying that the GOP and the Tea Party are the Champions of Freedom, I'd like to know why they are trying to destroy each other.
Because they/we disagree on specifics. Common within any party or movement.

Gladly the disagreements are not preventing us from large electoral gains in the coming weeks. Looks like we avoided destruction, whether it be by us, or by Democrats, or whoever. Luckily we are experiencing the opposite of destruction.
Would it now?

Go ahead and ask your questions.
What do you believe in.

What are your biases.

What is you agenda.

Hopefully specifics as opposed to platitudes.

It's safe to conclude that the antics of one party interest me more than the antics of the other.
I think we knew that already. You mentioned knife twisting. Trolling.
I don't support either party.
When you criticize one party and not the other when they do the same things you are supporting one party.
Because you have only one topic of discussion.
Politics has an infinite number of topics within it.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

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YMix wrote:On a more general note, I think the so-called "US conservative" movement espouses an economic radicalism that has little in common with what the Founding Fathers or the Framers did.
I think we can agree.

IIRC the tax burden the Founders placed on us was around 1% GDP. Nowadays I think it is almost 40% GDP fedstatelocal.

The GOP I think generally wants a Federal flat tax of about 17-20% (don't keep with the specifics), which is RADICAL compared to the no income tax 1% burden the founders wanted.

As for "US conservatives" being radical in a modern sense, the Reagan tax rates have been in effect for over 30 years now, and 2 Democrat Presidents only altered them very slightly, the Reagan levels are now mainstream and permanent, whereas the old Democrat President levels would be extreme or radical. In fact, obama even extended the Bush tax cuts himself, and got Clinton very famously to sell the extension at a press conference. You could call them the Reagan Bush obama Clinton tax cuts.

So one point of correction, Republican tax rates cannot be considered radical by modern definitions.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:I guess we can agree with that. The Democrat monopoly seemed quite agreeable with you at the time. I'm sure you want the 2nd party gone.
Democrat monopoly?
Because they/we disagree on specifics. Common within any party or movement.
Disagreeing on specific is one thing. Destroying each other is something else.
Gladly the disagreements are not preventing us from large electoral gains in the coming weeks. Looks like we avoided destruction, whether it be by us, or by Democrats, or whoever. Luckily we are experiencing the opposite of destruction.
<shrug> The voters will punish the Democrats for failing to deal with the economic crisis. Maybe. Then, if the situation doesn't improve, they will turn around and punish the Republicans as well. I don't understand why you find these things so interesting.
What do you believe in.
A society of people who respect each other, with no poverty beyond the inevitable X% who are hopeless. And culture as a quality leap.
What are your biases.
Too general.
What is you agenda.
The above mentioned society. Other than that... I don't know. Be more specific. I don't go about this the same way you do. I subscribe to no party. I subscribe to no philosophy fully. If I feel the need for a general ideological framework, I build my own.
Hopefully specifics as opposed to platitudes.
If you ask good questions, you get good answers.
I think we knew that already. You mentioned knife twisting. Trolling.
It took a long time to even get you to admit to infighting within the GOP-Tea Party complex. I think my knife twisting is getting results.
When you criticize one party and not the other when they do the same things you are supporting one party.
Not really, but it doesn't surprise me to hear this from you. You must be a huge fan of the Cold War because its simplistic black and white ideology was custom made for you.
Politics has an infinite number of topics within it.
Too bad you never touch upon them.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
YMix wrote:On a more general note, I think the so-called "US conservative" movement espouses an economic radicalism that has little in common with what the Founding Fathers or the Framers did.
I think we can agree.

IIRC the tax burden the Founders placed on us was around 1% GDP. Nowadays I think it is almost 40% GDP fedstatelocal.

The GOP I think generally wants a Federal flat tax of about 17-20% (don't keep with the specifics), which is RADICAL compared to the no income tax 1% burden the founders wanted.
Your country is an empire, lording it around the world in a manner that you distinctly like. That's never cheap. The Bush and Obama administrations have poured hundreds of billions in Iraq, Afghanistan and other aspects of the military-industrial complex. Since you support the enthusiastic bombing of any ambitious foreign country, you should shut up and pay your taxes. There's a big rentier class of contractors out there that needs yachts and villas.
As for "US conservatives" being radical in a modern sense, the Reagan tax rates have been in effect for over 30 years now, and 2 Democrat Presidents only altered them very slightly, the Reagan levels are now mainstream and permanent, whereas the old Democrat President levels would be extreme or radical. In fact, obama even extended the Bush tax cuts himself, and got Clinton very famously to sell the extension at a press conference. You could call them the Reagan Bush obama Clinton tax cuts.

So one point of correction, Republican tax rates cannot be considered radical by modern definitions.
I wasn't talking about taxes, but whatever.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote: Democrat monopoly?
Yes. The Democrats had a monopoly for 2 years, majority in every category, and there were no indications whatsoever that you were were even slightly uncomfortable with it. You seemed to like it. You seem comfortable with monopoly as opposed to duopoly.
Disagreeing on specific is one thing. Destroying each other is something else.
They didn't destroy each other. You appear to be in the lo info bunker, we've never polled higher on the most popular issues of the day, and are abut to enjoy a great election. Not even a hint of destruction.
<shrug> The voters will punish the Democrats for failing to deal with the economic crisis. Maybe.
Fortunately it appears to be on broad range of issues, which I'm sure you'll understand has me quite giddy.
Then, if the situation doesn't improve, they will turn around and punish the Republicans as well. I don't understand why you find these things so interesting.
And I'm glad. When the non Republicans roll over it makes things easier. It really seems like they're rolling over this year, which I'm glad about.
A society of people who respect each other,
Do you respect the Tea Party. Teabaggers. Do you think they would feel your knife twisting was respectful.
with no poverty beyond the inevitable X% who are hopeless.
How would you accomplish this.
And culture as a quality leap.
What does this mean.
Too general.
Most of your complaint about teabaggers are not unique to teabaggers, at all. So you rel opposition to teabaggers is based on some other bias.

Why do you really oppose teabaggers? It's clearly not anything you have said so far.
The above mentioned society. Other than that... I don't know. Be more specific. I don't go about this the same way you do. I subscribe to no party. I subscribe to no philosophy fully. If I feel the need of a general ideological framework, I build my own.
But why keep it a secret. How hard is it to write a paragraph or two, or whatever, that gives an idea of what you believe, what you stand for. I can do it myself, and I'm a moron according to most of you. Why do I have this gift you guys seem to lack.
If you ask good questions, you get good answers.
It seems like in history most people give their manifestos in a speech, or declarative writing as opposed to an interview. I invite you to write a short manifesto. Not too general, not too specific, just to give us an idea.
It took a long time to even get you to admit to infighting within the GOP-Tea Party complex. I think my knife twisting is getting results.
Trolling is trolling, whether it gets results or not.

As for infighting in the GOP, I acknowledged that publicly at least as far back as 2008, during that contentious primary. So sorry, it was not you that made me acknowledge that which I've known about as long as I was a Republican. It would be dishonest for me to say you did it.
Not really, but it doesn't surprise me to hear this from you. You must be a huge fan of the Cold War because its simplistic black and white ideology was custom made for you.
It's just the nature of political parties, nothing to do with me or a Cold War. If one party suffers some other party benefits. Has nothing to do with me, or you. I just live in reality where that is concerned.
Too bad you never touch upon them.
I touch on all of them. Foreign policy, economic policy, culture, all of it.

There is barely any political topic I don't comment on. Just read some of my threads. They touch on almost everything. I'm incredibly broad, intellectually speaking.

This is just a false characterization you seem highly emotionally invested in making, for reasons that evade me completely.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

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YMix wrote: Your country is an empire, lording it around the world in a manner that you distinctly like. That's never cheap. The Bush and Obama administrations have poured hundreds of billions in Iraq, Afghanistan and other aspects of the military-industrial complex. Since you support the enthusiastic bombing of any ambitious foreign country, you should shut up and pay your taxes. There's a big rentier class of contractors out there that needs yachts and villas.
Military spending is about 5% of GDP, including wars. I would be very happy to reduce mine and everyone else's taxes to support the military alone. Very happy. That would be MUCH MORE in line with the Founder's wishes. This huge Democrat government with the enormous debts is incredibly radical.
I wasn't talking about taxes, but whatever.
Well it can be any policy you like. The Democrat created Fed would be RADICAL compared to the Founders, as would be the New Deal, Johnson's Great Society, and obamacare and STPN in general. Compared to the GOP, the Founders would prefer us on every issue I know about.

As for whatever, that means you are TOTALLY WRONG.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Yes. The Democrats had a monopoly for 2 years, majority in every category, and there were no indications whatsoever that you were were even slightly uncomfortable with it. You seemed to like it. You seem comfortable with monopoly as opposed to duopoly.
I didn't notice it.
They didn't destroy each other. You appear to be in the lo info bunker, we've never polled higher on the most popular issues of the day, and are abut to enjoy a great election. Not even a hint of destruction.
Oh? And how are the Tea Party candidates faring? Polling high on the issues of the day doesn't mean much. Four years ago, the Tea Party was a rising star. Today, it's barely noticed by the media and its candidates suffer defeat after defeat at the hands of the establishment candidates.
Fortunately it appears to be on broad range of issues, which I'm sure you'll understand has me quite giddy.
Be giddy while you can.
And I'm glad. When the non Republicans roll over it makes things easier. It really seems like they're rolling over this year, which I'm glad about.
And they will roll back in the next elections. Or the ones after that.
Do you respect the Tea Party. Teabaggers. Do you think they would feel your knife twisting was respectful.
More or less. Not when they say stupid things, obviously. If we got together, I think we could have find common ground and drink some beer.
How would you accomplish this.
Don't know for sure. It depends on a lot of things.
What does this mean.
I dream of a society free of ignorant and dull people. Not particularly realistic, but...
Most of your complaint about teabaggers are not unique to teabaggers, at all. So you rel opposition to teabaggers is based on some other bias.
Aaaand back to the only topic of interest to you.
Why do you really oppose teabaggers? It's clearly not anything you have said so far.
I'm not sure how much I oppose them. I think they are guided by a defficient understanding of certain issues and that they have been used by the GOP establishment. I oppose those who seek a theocratic society, though.
But why keep it a secret. How hard is it to write a paragraph or two, or whatever, that gives an idea of what you believe, what you stand for. I can do it myself, and I'm a moron according to most of you. Why do I have this gift you guys seem to lack.
I'm mainly interested in learning and understanding. The more I learn, the more I realize that acting without thinking is a really bad idea.
It seems like in history most people give their manifestos in a speech, or declarative writing as opposed to an interview. I invite you to write a short manifesto. Not too general, not too specific, just to give us an idea.
Maybe.
Trolling is trolling, whether it gets results or not.
If you keep saying it, maybe it comes true.
As for infighting in the GOP, I acknowledged that publicly at least as far back as 2008, during that contentious primary. So sorry, it was not you that made me acknowledge that which I've known about as long as I was a Republican. It would be dishonest for me to say you did it.
I've noticed that. You stayed out of this thread for quite some time. :)
It's just the nature of political parties, nothing to do with me or a Cold War. If one party suffers some other party benefits. Has nothing to do with me, or you. I just live in reality where that is concerned.
Other people understand that there's more to life than black and white. There's different points of view. There's neutrality.
I touch on all of them. Foreign policy, economic policy, culture, all of it.
But always in the same "right is good, left is evil" context.
There is barely any political topic I don't comment on. Just read some of my threads. They touch on almost everything. I'm incredibly broad, intellectually speaking.
Nope.
This is just a false characterization you seem highly emotionally invested in making, for reasons that evade me completely.
If, after this discussion, the reasons continue to evade you, there's no point in going on.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Military spending is about 5% of GDP, including wars. I would be very happy to reduce mine and everyone else's taxes to support the military alone. Very happy. That would be MUCH MORE in line with the Founder's wishes. This huge Democrat government with the enormous debts is incredibly radical.
Does that include the NSA, homeland security and all that "defense" stuff?
Well it can be any policy you like. The Democrat created Fed would be RADICAL compared to the Founders, as would be the New Deal, Johnson's Great Society, and obamacare and STPN in general. Compared to the GOP, the Founders would prefer us on every issue I know about.

As for whatever, that means you are TOTALLY WRONG.
All right. Every faction competing for power today is radical and totally outside the bounds of what the Founders' society.
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DemocRats Had It All..... Slowing Down the Damage.....

Post by monster_gardener »

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Yes. The Democrats had a monopoly for 2 years, majority in every category, and there were no indications whatsoever that you were were even slightly uncomfortable with it. You seemed to like it. You seem comfortable with monopoly as opposed to duopoly.
I didn't notice it.
They didn't destroy each other. You appear to be in the lo info bunker, we've never polled higher on the most popular issues of the day, and are abut to enjoy a great election. Not even a hint of destruction.
Oh? And how are the Tea Party candidates faring? Polling high on the issues of the day doesn't mean much. Four years ago, the Tea Party was a rising star. Today, it's barely noticed by the media and its candidates suffer defeat after defeat at the hands of the establishment candidates.
Fortunately it appears to be on broad range of issues, which I'm sure you'll understand has me quite giddy.
Be giddy while you can.
And I'm glad. When the non Republicans roll over it makes things easier. It really seems like they're rolling over this year, which I'm glad about.
And they will roll back in the next elections. Or the ones after that.
Do you respect the Tea Party. Teabaggers. Do you think they would feel your knife twisting was respectful.
More or less. Not when they say stupid things, obviously. If we got together, I think we could have find common ground and drink some beer.
How would you accomplish this.
Don't know for sure. It depends on a lot of things.
What does this mean.
I dream of a society free of ignorant and dull people. Not particularly realistic, but...
Most of your complaint about teabaggers are not unique to teabaggers, at all. So you rel opposition to teabaggers is based on some other bias.
Aaaand back to the only topic of interest to you.
Why do you really oppose teabaggers? It's clearly not anything you have said so far.
I'm not sure how much I oppose them. I think they are guided by a defficient understanding of certain issues and that they have been used by the GOP establishment. I oppose those who seek a theocratic society, though.
But why keep it a secret. How hard is it to write a paragraph or two, or whatever, that gives an idea of what you believe, what you stand for. I can do it myself, and I'm a moron according to most of you. Why do I have this gift you guys seem to lack.
I'm mainly interested in learning and understanding. The more I learn, the more I realize that acting without thinking is a really bad idea.
It seems like in history most people give their manifestos in a speech, or declarative writing as opposed to an interview. I invite you to write a short manifesto. Not too general, not too specific, just to give us an idea.
Maybe.
Trolling is trolling, whether it gets results or not.
If you keep saying it, maybe it comes true.
As for infighting in the GOP, I acknowledged that publicly at least as far back as 2008, during that contentious primary. So sorry, it was not you that made me acknowledge that which I've known about as long as I was a Republican. It would be dishonest for me to say you did it.
I've noticed that. You stayed out of this thread for quite some time. :)
It's just the nature of political parties, nothing to do with me or a Cold War. If one party suffers some other party benefits. Has nothing to do with me, or you. I just live in reality where that is concerned.
Other people understand that there's more to life than black and white. There's different points of view. There's neutrality.
I touch on all of them. Foreign policy, economic policy, culture, all of it.
But always in the same "right is good, left is evil" context.
There is barely any political topic I don't comment on. Just read some of my threads. They touch on almost everything. I'm incredibly broad, intellectually speaking.
Nope.
This is just a false characterization you seem highly emotionally invested in making, for reasons that evade me completely.
If, after this discussion, the reasons continue to evade you, there's no point in going on.
Thank You VERY MUCH for your Post & MAINTAINING The Forum, YMix
YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Yes. The Democrats had a monopoly for 2 years, majority in every category, and there were no indications whatsoever that you were were even slightly uncomfortable with it. You seemed to like it. You seem comfortable with monopoly as opposed to duopoly.
I didn't notice it.
Perhaps because you live overseas: I don't know what US news media you watch and how much of what.

But it is true.

The Democrats had it all: The Presidency and both Houses of Congress. :idea:

If obama & his evil henchmen & henchwomen had concentrated on reasonable things like jobs and fixing the financial crisis, they should have had relatively few problems getting. :idea:

But they were Arrogant, Incompetent, Lazy, LYING and Venal and used obama's henchman Rahm Emmanuel's operating priciple: "Never let a crisis go to waste". :evil: :idea:

They tried and too often succeeded in passing DemocRAT wish list items that even some Democrats knew their constituents didn't want and so obama etc. had to bribe these saner Democrats to get their votes... :shock:


obamacare is the best example of this but there were other crap programs like the insane Cash for Clunkers which even now makes used car prices MUCH higher than they would be otherwise and makes parts for used cars hard to find & expensive. This was done to benefit car dealers who often made big contributions to DemocRat Congress Critters. :evil:

Another example was the stupid Shovel Ready Jobs which was so poorly designed and implemented that even that obama the Incompetent joked "Weren't That Shovel Ready" :evil: :roll:

And the DemocRATs knew what they were doing.... They were desperate to get even just one Republican to sign on to the crap legislation known as obamaCare so that when it crashed as they had to know or at least strongly suspect it would * that they could spread the blame and say the bill was bipartisan.

Fortunately the Republicans held firm and gave it not even one vote. :)

Oh? And how are the Tea Party candidates faring? Polling high on the issues of the day doesn't mean much. Four years ago, the Tea Party was a rising star. Today, it's barely noticed by the media and its candidates suffer defeat after defeat at the hands of the establishment candidates.
But the Mainstream GOP cannot act as it sometimes would like to on issues like immigration or compromising more with DemocRat crap legislation like obamaCare.

And occasionally the Tea Party will bag a Mainstream GOP like Erich Cantor who intends to do that...

Sometimes success can be just slowing down the damage..... :idea:


*so poorly crafted was obamaCare that that Imperial Illiterate :twisted: 3itch then Speaker of the House DemocRAT Nancy Pelosi famously said "We have to pass the bill to know what's in it" :evil: :roll:
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Re: DemocRats Had It All..... Slowing Down the Damage.....

Post by YMix »

monster_gardener wrote:Perhaps because you live overseas: I don't know what US news media you watch and how much of what.
I read the Asia Times every week and I've recently started visiting the Unz Review. Other than that, I tend to search for topics of interest, not general news.
But it is true.

The Democrats had it all: The Presidency and both Houses of Congress.
And still failed to foist full-blown Socialism upon the USA. I'm disappointed. ;)
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by Mr. Perfect »

YMix wrote: I didn't notice it.
I think that not noticing one of the biggest monopolies of all time disqualifies you from the conversation of the good or ill of "duopolies" and party politics.
Oh? And how are the Tea Party candidates faring? Polling high on the issues of the day doesn't mean much. Four years ago, the Tea Party was a rising star. Today, it's barely noticed by the media and its candidates suffer defeat after defeat at the hands of the establishment candidates.
The MSM is indicative of absolutely nothing, and the TP bagged Eric Cantor, one of the biggest congressional upsets of all time. The GOP has been merging with the TP after the government shut down and so there isn't a real need to have TP branded candidates anymore. But it is nice to know they are there if we need them. They did the job we needed them to do. They played a pivotal role in stopping the radical obama agenda. They have earned their place in the halls of the great champions of freedom.

So everything is going quite nicely.
Be giddy while you can.
I will be, thanks.
And they will roll back in the next elections. Or the ones after that.
This is what the loser always say. But reality is that when you look back at history, the pendulum theory is the exception not the rule. The parties never swing back and forth with regularity. Rather, history shows that we go through eras, usually mutlidecadal long. We just wrapped up a 26 year Reagan era, and Democrats were saying that obama was ushering in a 40 year left wing era. Fortunately with the TP we limited that to just a few years and are on the path to building Reagan 2.0.
More or less. Not when they say stupid things, obviously. If we got together, I think we could have find common ground and drink some beer.
I think they would find your knife twisting to be disrespectful. I say this as someone for who the TP are real people who I know and work with, not caricatures created in left wing media products from across the globe.
Don't know for sure. It depends on a lot of things.
You may want to get work on defining those things, else your life will go by and you will have influenced nothing.
I dream of a society free of ignorant and dull people. Not particularly realistic, but...
I would say then you are twisting the knife in the wrong people. The ignorance champions are the left. As far as dull, I find mindless hedonism to be dull, so the left would be the target again.
Aaaand back to the only topic of interest to you.
Just keeping it real. I'm not naive enough to think people don't have ulterior motives and hidden agendas and biases. I prefer dealing in honesty. People disclosing upfront what they really think and believe. This is apparently very frightening for some.
I'm not sure how much I oppose them. I think they are guided by a defficient understanding of certain issues and that they have been used by the GOP establishment. I oppose those who seek a theocratic society, though.
Nobody is seeking a theocratic society. The obama movement is ignorant and has been used by their own establishment, and you say nothing about it. So we still have not come to the real reason you oppose them.
I'm mainly interested in learning and understanding. The more I learn, the more I realize that acting without thinking is a really bad idea.
I agree. The obama administration is the greatest example I can think of in terms of the hazards involved there.

Still I think you should put your belief system in a couple of paragraph manifesto, rather than just waiting for an interview.
If you keep saying it, maybe it comes true.
It was true before I said anything.
I've noticed that. You stayed out of this thread for quite some time. :)
Yes. As I said, it was uninteresting and boring. It was like debating Lavern and Shirley reruns. Old, and stale. I've participate in countless threads that twisted the knife into conservatives, yours I just couldn't keep my eyes open.
Other people understand that there's more to life than black and white. There's different points of view. There's neutrality.
I believe that. Obviously though you are not neutral. What you do benefits Democrats, and I am a person who wants to defeat Democrats.
But always in the same "right is good, left is evil" context.
But if the right is good and the left is evil, why wouldn't we want to address that?
Nope.
Yep.
If, after this discussion, the reasons continue to evade you, there's no point in going on.
I think there was no point to the OP. :)

Internal power struggles and divisions are found wherever groups of people gather together. Nothing new or notable going on here.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by manolo »

Mr. Perfect wrote: Internal power struggles and divisions are found wherever groups of people gather together.
Mr P,

I don't agree with everything you say, but this one sounds right.

Alex.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by kmich »

YMix wrote:On a more general note, I think the so-called "US conservative" movement espouses an economic radicalism that has little in common with what the Founding Fathers or the Framers did.
Ymix, it is always a challenging business comparing our contemporary political movements with the intent of the founders, mostly because the challenges for a small developing republic of the late 18th century and the challenges to an economic and military empire of the 21st century are so dramatically different. Political, intellectual, and social orientations and temperaments of the respective times are distant from each other in many ways.

The founders were conservative in the classical, Aristotelean sense of the term, in the virtuousness of public over private life. The public good, while narrowly defined at the time as the interests of propertied, white men, was paramount. Reason and extensive exercises in persuasion with the public welfare as the metric was essential to the process. Read the Federalist Papers, published tracts to persuade states to cede powers to a Federal government in the new constitution, for examples. The founders were keenly aware of the catastrophic failure to establish a viable republic following the 17th century English Civil War since partisan factionalism, political fragmentation, and the incoherence of any common, political project prevented successful governance. They were acutely aware of these dangers in the last, historical attempt to establish a republic, a century and a half before their nation’s founding where the remaining leaders of the revolution were hung, drawn, and quartered and Cromwell's body was disinterred and hung in effigy. The restraint of private passions, the emphasis on reasoned persuasion and compromise, all in the service of an Aristotelean public good, were central to their political efforts for very practical concerns.

Unfortunately, our contemporary politics has devolved into the factionalism they feared. Any sense of the public good is nowhere to be found in either party. Instead, factions are formed by private passions, convictions, and identifications commonly shared. Serious, rational persuasion is rarely to be found. Read our Op-Eds after reading the Federalist for an exercise in frustration. In addition, politics that is rooted in privately held convictions and passions turns the political process into a zero sum game where the more you win the more the other side loses and vice versa, your position and those of your tribe are of central importance over the common project, and reasoned compromise, the central governing mechanism conceived by the founders, becomes impossible. Failure to govern is of little consequence; ideological fealty and purity and the vanquishing the opposition are what really matters. Our current Congress has more in common with Colonel Pride’s Rump Parliament than what the founders envisioned. They, frankly, would be horrified at our current state of affairs.

While these problems include both parties in various ways, my disappointment with contemporary “conservatism” is more acute since I believe that a truly conservative approach of a more classical temperament could renew our republic. A conservatism that valued the public good over private need, that was wary and skeptical of ideological passions and factions, which believed in rule of law, civil society as a paramount value, fiscal prudence, and the nobility of public service, I would whole heartedly support. It is just not to be found and I do not find cynical resignation and passivity as a viable option.
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:I think that not noticing one of the biggest monopolies of all time disqualifies you from the conversation of the good or ill of "duopolies" and party politics.
The problem is the duopoly that controls the political life of your country. Which of the two parties has more or less control of the federal government for a couple of years is less important. This has already been discussed.
The MSM is indicative of absolutely nothing, and the TP bagged Eric Cantor, one of the biggest congressional upsets of all time. The GOP has been merging with the TP after the government shut down and so there isn't a real need to have TP branded candidates anymore. But it is nice to know they are there if we need them. They did the job we needed them to do. They played a pivotal role in stopping the radical obama agenda. They have earned their place in the halls of the great champions of freedom.
Without the MSM, the Tea Party would've been an obscure fringe movement, whether you like it or not. Same goes for the Occupy people. The GOP is not merging with the Tea Party. The GOP is crushing the Tea Party, incorporating the "flexible" candidates who cannot be ignored and destroying the others. And pretty soon there won't be any Tea Party candidates left. Unfortunately for the GOP, not only that the Tea Party did not give popular coloring to a 100% establishment candidate, but its members also became uppity and turned against their masters.
So everything is going quite nicely.
If you say so. :)
This is what the loser always say. But reality is that when you look back at history, the pendulum theory is the exception not the rule. The parties never swing back and forth with regularity. Rather, history shows that we go through eras, usually mutlidecadal long. We just wrapped up a 26 year Reagan era, and Democrats were saying that obama was ushering in a 40 year left wing era. Fortunately with the TP we limited that to just a few years and are on the path to building Reagan 2.0.
A 26-year Reagan era? Because of a couple of tax cuts? Sounds a bit far-fetched. At least you admit that massive deficit spending is also part of the Reagan era.
I think they would find your knife twisting to be disrespectful. I say this as someone for who the TP are real people who I know and work with, not caricatures created in left wing media products from across the globe.
Are they as easily offended as you? I thought they were tough people. :)
You may want to get work on defining those things, else your life will go by and you will have influenced nothing.
So? I'll be content with understanding some things properly.
I would say then you are twisting the knife in the wrong people. The ignorance champions are the left. As far as dull, I find mindless hedonism to be dull, so the left would be the target again.
I know, I know, it's always those other people.
Just keeping it real. I'm not naive enough to think people don't have ulterior motives and hidden agendas and biases. I prefer dealing in honesty. People disclosing upfront what they really think and believe. This is apparently very frightening for some.
This isn't even worth a reply. If you have proof of lying, show it.
Nobody is seeking a theocratic society. The obama movement is ignorant and has been used by their own establishment, and you say nothing about it. So we still have not come to the real reason you oppose them.
At least don't be daft. Let's assume that Oklahoma and some other Bible-belt states secede from the USA. How long would it take to staff all levels of the new government structure with true believers? A month? Two months? And then the radicals would start climbing toward the top. That's pretty much inevitable. As for the Obama movement, f*uck them. They should've known better than to trust a party hack.
I agree. The obama administration is the greatest example I can think of in terms of the hazards involved there.
If that's your greatest example...
It was true before I said anything.
<yawn>
Yes. As I said, it was uninteresting and boring. It was like debating Lavern and Shirley reruns. Old, and stale. I've participate in countless threads that twisted the knife into conservatives, yours I just couldn't keep my eyes open.
Is that so? I asked you repeatedly to comment on some of the news items posted in this thread and you, the man who doesn't even need a challenge to butt it, would not answer. Sounds more like avoidance. :D
I believe that. Obviously though you are not neutral. What you do benefits Democrats, and I am a person who wants to defeat Democrats.
That's your problem, not mine.
But if the right is good and the left is evil, why wouldn't we want to address that?
You have yet to establish that.
I think there was no point to the OP. :)
I can see that. It must be why you're trying to downplay the destruction of the Tea Party.
Internal power struggles and divisions are found wherever groups of people gather together. Nothing new or notable going on here.
Champions of Freedom trying to destroy each other? I find that notable. :)
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: The Tea Party vs. the GOP thread

Post by YMix »

How the Mass. GOP establishment worked tirelessly to try to destroy the campaign of Mark Fisher, conservative candidate for Governor.

[...]

8. Delegations’ votes are publicly announced, but result is ignored. The vote tally was very public. A GOP official at the podium called out to each of the 40 delegations for their results. Each delegation, using a portable microphone from their area in the auditorium, announced their totals for Baker, Fisher, and “blanks” from their tally sheets which had the names of the delegates and how they voted. The whole thing took about 20 minutes. But at the end, the grand totals were not announced.

9. Convention halts while “re-counting” takes place. The convention immediately stopped and a group of party officials huddled around some tables in front of the stage. At first was not clear what they were doing. Finally, we were told that a “re-counting” of sorts was taking place. This went on for at least half an hour or more.

10. Baker is declared winner, but actual vote totals still not announced. A few minutes later, Baker was declared the “winner. ” And with a rain of balloons and confetti, and he came up and gave a speech. But what percentage did Baker get? What percentage did Fisher get? It was not announced – only that Baker won.

11. “Re-counting” continues, and “results” finally announced. After Baker’s speech, party officials moved to tables in a back room area and continued their mysterious “re-counting.” After about another two hours, it was announced that Fisher had only received 14.765% of the votes, just missing the 15% requirement. Fisher’s people were not allowed to examine the tally sheets for themselves, however.

12. Mass GOP announces Fisher will not be the ballot. The day after the convention, the Mass GOP announced to the press that Mark Fisher had not received the 15% requirement, and therefore would not be on the ballot. The GOP stood by its “re-count.”

13. Tally sheets still kept hidden. The Mass GOP continued to refuse to let anyone see the individual delegate vote tally sheets, which apparently added up to the GOP’s new official vote count. Several delegates expressed concern that their votes had been tampered with, miscounted, or that they were “assigned” votes when they hadn’t voted at all.

[...]
Not even subtle. I assume these shenanigans are "differences of opinion".
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
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